Chapter XXXI: Part 31

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Mr. Surrey discussed with you the fact that on June 3, 1964, he was interviewed by an agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to Commission Exhibit No. 5, which showed this automobile behind your house with the license plate obliterated on it? Did he tell you he had been asked about that?

General WALKER. He told me about a picture being shown to him of the back side of my house, and I believe he referred to it showing some automobile or automobiles being behind the house, but I don't remember any reference to that car or the hole in it. There wasn't any reference to that car, if that is a hole in the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. I represent to you that Commission Exhibit No. 5 that we have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole torn in there right where the black part is on the car. The original picture itself has a hole right through there.

General WALKER. Then it is not a hole in the car?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which this thing I show you now is a copy.

General WALKER. Oh, I see.

Mr. LIEBELER. I thought exactly what you thought the first time I looked at it; that that was a hole in the car. It is not. It is a hole in the picture.

General WALKER. He referred to being shown photographs with the back of the premises and the car or something back there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember him telling you that he was able to identify this as Charles Klihr's car?

General WALKER. No; I don't remember that he identified the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I understand that Mr. Surrey saw two men in the vicinity of your house shortly before April 10, 1963, acting in a manner that he regarded as suspicious. Did he report that to you at or about that time?

General WALKER. He has reported that to me, and I don't remember the date on which he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you?

General WALKER. I can't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact, that Surrey had seen two men out there in an automobile that didn't have any license plate on it?

General WALKER. Yes; I do. I knew. He told me that he had come toward my house and noticed a car, as I remember, parked on Avondale, and he went on by or backed up or something and got out and came behind the car and saw two men moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in the back part of my house. Then he followed that car. They went down to the center of town, and he lost them. I would suspect that he told me that the next morning, if not that night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not you reported that to the police?

General WALKER. Yes; that was called in to the police. As I recall, that was. I believe there is a report at the house that it was called in to the police. As I recall, it was, and I told them what we knew about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired?

General WALKER. As I reflect, it must have been called in either that night or the next morning. I don't recall the exact time, but the police record will show it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do that, if you remember?

General WALKER. As I recall, I made it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of response you got from the Dallas Police Department?

General WALKER. Seemed normal. Wasn't upset about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, subsequent to April 10, 1963, of course, the Dallas Police Department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is that not right?

General WALKER. Will you repeat that?

Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department investigated this attack on you that occurred on April 10, 1963? They sent men out there and talked to you and took some pictures?

General WALKER. Oh, subsequent to it; yes. Subsequent, right; they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have been involved?

General WALKER. I don't recall that they did. They may have, and I may have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had worked for me. I don't recall this definitely, but the records will probably show.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records like that here?

General WALKER. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the name Lee Harvey Oswald come up in connection with this investigation in any way at that time?

General WALKER. No; it didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know William Duff?

General WALKER. I know who William Duff is under that name; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked for you as a batman?

General WALKER. Yes; that is what he calls himself; right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first make the acquaintance of Mr. Duff?

General WALKER. He walked in the house late one evening and said he was out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and I put him up and put him to work. The date I would have to get for you; I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was it sometime prior to April 10, 1963, in any event?

General WALKER. Yes; it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Duff living in your house at the time of the attack on you?

General WALKER. No; he wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how long had he been gone; can you remember?

General WALKER. As general figures, I would say he worked about 3 months for me, and he had been gone a month or two. I would have to verify these.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that Duff might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you?

General WALKER. I suspected that he might be involved.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you conducted an investigation of that possibility, did you not?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with that investigation, two detectives from General Watts' office, one, Kester, and one, Roberts, came down to Dallas and engaged in an investigation, did they not?

General WALKER. They did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us about that, please?

General WALKER. They were in and out, as I remember, in the investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during it, and even drove Duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how he would have shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such intentions.

General WATTS. I got a call--I don't remember the exact date--but I do have a record of it. I got a call from Mrs. Kenecht in General Walker's office to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some lady who advised Mrs. Kenecht that this boy Duff had been going with the lady's daughter and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in on the shooting at General Walker.

So I sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned, connected with our office. They are ex-detectives or policemen from the Oklahoma City Police Department and do freelance investigating. I sent them down here with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could from Duff, because we were very apprehensive that he might take another shot at Walker.

We couldn't get Duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise $5,000. It is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over to the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask: Were you, General Walker, generally familiar with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the progress?

General WALKER. I was familiar with the progress of the investigation and got a final copy of it. I thought it solved nothing, but Duff was telling his usual lies.

Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts' description of these events is accurate, to the best of your knowledge; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct, except that I do not agree with General Watts' statement that Duff had implicated himself in the attack on me by statements to the daughter of this woman who called Mrs. Kenecht. My information is only to the effect that the girl's mother was upset about her daughter's friendship with Duff. As far as I know, she never said that Duff admitted being involved in the attack on me that occurred on April 10, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. General Watts, you indicated you had some additional information on Mr. Duff.

General WATTS. Yes; one Friday evening--I could get the exact date--I was dictating in my bedroom at home, and I looked up and there stood Duff whom I hadn't seen since he had worked at General Walker's, but whom we had investigated, and he told me a rather weird story.

He had gone to the Army and was stationed at Fort Sill, and immediately after the assassination he was interrogated by personnel from the Justice Department and was charged with fraudulent enlistment, according to him. He had failed to enter on his enlistment papers that he had worked for General Walker, and when it became known that he had worked for General Walker, he was charged with fraudulent enlistment along in December 1963, and his pay cut off.

He professed to me that he had been living at Fort Sill, although not under arrest, but without pay since the previous December, and had no funds, and was about to be discharged. So in order to keep tab on him, I arranged for him to get a job with a friend, Paul Blakeley, for whom he worked for a short time, and later got him another job with a contractor, W. H. Thompson, for whom he is, as far as I know, still working. And after things get quieted down, I fully intend to see what information I can get out of Duff, if you can depend on what he says, and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, the inference to be drawn is that Duff is an extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth?

General WALKER. I wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it was verified.

General WATTS. I did call Fort Sill and talk to the judge advocate, who raised considerable question as to the accuracy of the story Duff told me. And frankly, I wouldn't believe a word the boy would say unless I have absolute verification of it. But I am at least suspicious that he knows something that he has never told.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as the attempt on General Walker is concerned?

General WATTS. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, what makes you think that he does know something about that?

Let me say this. Since this is almost a friendly, if I may say so, session, I assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are making will be under oath, is that correct? And you will swear to that?

General WATTS. Yes.

General WALKER. They should be identified as that of my attorney because they don't necessarily agree with my opinion.

General WATTS. My opinion and General Walker's don't frequently jibe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let us swear you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

General WATTS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicated that you had some belief that Duff might know something about the attempt on General Walker that he hasn't told you. Do you have any basis for that?

General WATTS. My only basis is suspicion. First; his generally unreliable nature. Second; I have never fully satisfied myself as to the accuracy of the investigation these boys made where Duff undoubtedly had made some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown woman who called in. We have never been able to locate or identify her. I have never reconciled his tape recorder statement that he had not shot at Walker, but would do so for $5,000, with the apparent statement to this unidentified woman's daughter that he had actually fired at Walker. In other words, we could never verify that by our investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to Duff's involvement in the attack made on you on April 10. Do you think he knows anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he was involved in it in any way? Do you have any evidence to indicate that he was?

General WALKER. I also know that I wouldn't believe 90 percent of what Duff said about anything. I have come to no conclusion even after the investigation that he was even involved. Knowing Duff; I felt that if the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked more than Duff got tricked.

Mr. LIEBELER. But these investigators weren't able to develop anything that led you to think that Duff had been involved in the attack on you made on April 10, 1963, isn't that right?

General WALKER. It led me to believe what?

Mr. LIEBELER. That Duff had been involved in the attack on you.

General WALKER. According to his fantastic stories, it might lead to the belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but Duff is so fantastic that I don't believe a word he says.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence other than the statement that Duff is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate that he was involved in the attack on you? Do you have any indication that he was involved in it at all?

General WALKER. None; other than, as I remember what he has stated, and there is something else. And based on Duff's nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't believe what he said?

General WALKER. He never appeared a vicious fellow, and I rather liked the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time I had him, until I realized that nothing was truthful that he said, and I felt that he had left feeling friendly, actually, except that he left by having been ushered to the door while I was gone and told not to come back.

General WATTS. He truly professes to feeling very friendly to General Walker. I have never confronted him with the fact that the investigators have a tape recording that he was anxious to get a shot at Walker for $5,000, but I am still suspicious that Duff knows something that he hasn't told.

General WALKER. It is certainly true, to further my counsel's statement, that Duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and beer joints and so forth, and he could still know something and not be involved himself.

General WATTS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, have you any information of any kind that would indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you?

General WALKER. None; other than the indications that have been brought up here with respect to Duff. He did appear back in my house at one time after this, just walked in. Which I don't bring up now as an idea that that gave further indication that he did. I can't seem to recall exactly what the purpose of his visit was, but I wasn't very warm toward him and he was soon out the door after talking to him maybe 5 or 10 minutes.

Other than Duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and expressed by other people regarding Oswald's connection in the case of shooting at me.

Mr. LIEBELER. So aside from Duff and aside from what has been made public as regards Oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or conclusions or ideas as to who might have taken the shot at you on April 10, 1963?

General WALKER. No; I am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact that--not particularly you, as the FBI having taken the information on the case from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is now responsible for an open case, and also the lack of contact with my counsel at any time regarding Oswald's position in this from the time the shot was fired or even after the events of November 22, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, all that information will be made public eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at this moment is, you don't have any other information other than what we have already covered here that would give us any ideas as to who might have done that, is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any basis for believing that there was any connection between Duff and Oswald?

General WALKER. None at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never even heard of Oswald?

General WALKER. Only with respect to what we have passed over with regard to what we have said about Duff, and we have heard said about Oswald. I have no information of Oswald's name ever being mentioned in my house, and I had never heard of the name with regard to the individual we are referring to at any time since I have been in Dallas or any other time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never heard of any connection until the assassination?

General WALKER. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically, no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk Coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as far as I am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked.

I would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, this Commission----

General WATTS. I never tried to talk to Coleman.

General WALKER. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say anything. That may not be the direct information, but I think you will find it about what the situation is.

General WATTS. This is off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him?

General WALKER. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak to him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that, General Walker, do you remember?

General WALKER. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to anybody?

General WALKER. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law enforcement agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements, if there are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this further?

Mr. LIEBELER. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1.

Point 2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into this matter, and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the request of the Commission, and the report will include a finding one way or the other as to whether Oswald was the man who was involved in this attack on you.

General WALKER. It will have such a finding?

Mr. LIEBELER. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure.

General WALKER. Then it must be handling the case, because we have information that the city police turned all the information over to the FBI and there was nothing for us to deal with them about.

My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely said that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying on any development of the cases.

Mr. LIEBELER. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to do. The FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the Dallas Police Department does the same thing.

General WALKER. I think we should have a round robin discussion with the city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and the Warren Reynolds case back where they should be. I would think that we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open cases in the city of Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for open cases in the city of Dallas. That your counsel will tell you. That is perfectly obvious.

General WALKER. Then I want to go on the record that the city police has misused the Commission and also the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no knowledge of that.

General WALKER. I think it is--I can't straighten it out and neither can my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is an open case, and this is true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you know about that.

General WALKER. I certainly will.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out here.

Go ahead.

General WALKER. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Warren Reynolds?

General WALKER. I do know Warren Reynolds.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you meet him?

General WALKER. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone, I would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot through the temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press release, but I didn't seem to bring it with me. But you probably have that date.

It doesn't make much difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away.

I left on a trip and came back to the house, and I was curious about Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody in the house to call and see about Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital.

I found out that day finally after calling out to his place of business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. I think we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. I would say that was about 10 days from the time he was fired at.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have the date of that?

General WALKER. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964, and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there.

I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what had happened to him.

Within a day or two I would say--I said, "If you want to see me, you can." And he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and I have been quite interested in his case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the contact with Mr. Reynolds?

General WALKER. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him?

General WALKER. Sir?

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the first time you actually saw him in person, if you ever did, and I believe that you did.

General WALKER. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first telephone conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his brother.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen him in person altogether?

General WALKER. I believe he has been in the house twice.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have also had various telephone conversations with him, isn't that right, General Walker?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday noon, didn't you?

General WALKER. Very likely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether you did?

General WALKER. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the exact time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in contact with him.

General WALKER. I was very much interested in his case and why they would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald in the domestic state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit.

I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the police were doing about it, and how he felt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and his observation of Oswald?

General WALKER. Pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit?

General WALKER. Will you repeat the question?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit?

General WALKER. We discussed that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection between the two?

General WALKER. He seemed to think there might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think there is?

General WALKER. Yes; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is?

General WALKER. I think there is a definite--I don't know that you could call it evidence--but you can anticipate that people would like to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. People right here in Dallas. And I don't think anybody knows or would have known at the time after November 22 how much or how little Warren Reynolds knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he?

General WALKER. He would become a very good example, regardless of what he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure speculation on your part?

General WALKER. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it or disprove it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to harass you.

I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, because the Commission would certainly like to know if there is.

General WALKER. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel Club, her only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was driven over to this used car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story written by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got all this information?

General WALKER. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of the pieces of information I had.

Mr. LIEBELER. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements that Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper.

Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you to believe there might be some connection between these two events? Isn't that a fair statement?

General WALKER. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on.

There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing that makes me curious about this attempt on Warren's life as the one out of a hundred of used car lot operators in Dallas, to attempt the assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald, makes this quite unusual.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you have already suggested.

General WALKER. I have just referred to one.

Mr. LIEBELER. That one that you referred to is the----

General WALKER. The fact that there has not been, as far as I know, any finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned previously that Reynolds had said that the law enforcement--you didn't say Reynolds said it--you said that you understood that the law enforcement officers had checked Reynolds just 2 days before he had been shot; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what Reynolds told you?

General WALKER. That is correct. I believe he referred to them as FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indications of any possible relationship between these things, that would help the Commission try to find out if there is a relationship between these events?

General WALKER. I don't think of anything else; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you sent a telegram to the Commission suggesting that we question Warren Reynolds?

General WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you probably know, of course, we have questioned him yesterday.

General WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss Mr. Reynolds' appearance with us, with him?

General WALKER. I did. He called me on the telephone and we discussed it. He said you were a very nice young man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you, General Walker. Thank Mr. Reynolds. You didn't say that. That is what he said. That isn't what you said.

General WALKER. I may call him tonight and tell him the same thing.

I think we are working in the same effort and same direction. I haven't done anything to hide on this thing. I do ask that you all get the chain of command straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with respect to the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those problems come up many times because there isn't any real chain of command or responsibility between these people. We don't have very much to do with the Dallas Police Department.

General WALKER. When they pass things to the FBI and the FBI is responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of their hands. Certainly they have used that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that would indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on the assassination of the President?

General WALKER. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a definite recognition of conspiracy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Suggesting that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was involved?

General WALKER. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when one of its members does it, who thinks like they do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is of course, your view. My question of you is this. Do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would indicate either the involvement of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or any other individual or organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the President.

The fact that Oswald may have been a member of this organization, which he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different ways. But my question to you is somewhat different from that, and that is, do you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this organization or any other organization or any other person was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?

General WALKER. My answer to you is that I have exactly the evidence that you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the conspiracy, because he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and I consider the objectives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee a Communist activity and a conspiracy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with Oswald prior to the time that he assassinated the President, if he did the assassination; do you have any indication of that?

General WALKER. I have no personal knowledge that they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that they did?

General WALKER. I certainly do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what that is?

General WALKER. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over the country that Rubenstein and Oswald had some association.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you indicate to us what it was?

General WALKER. Well, I am wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein can take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick up the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell us when and where that happened?

General WALKER. I haven't been able to verify that it happened for sure, but I have been told that it happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

General WALKER. My information came from a repairman, from another fellow to a friend of mine, to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you give us the name of the person?

General WALKER. I don't think it is necessary. I think you have all the information, because the information also includes the fact that the records were picked up in the repair shop.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whether we have the information or not, I am asking you if you know the name of that repairman who said that Oswald said he picked up his car?

General WALKER. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the name of the garage?

General WALKER. No; I don't. As I remember, it was a hotel garage.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give us the name of the people that brought the information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? Who the garageman is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman somewhere.

General WALKER. No; I think your sources are better than mine on this.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is not my question. My question is, do you know their names?

General WALKER. Yes; I do, but I am not telling.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not going to tell us the names of these people?

General WALKER. Hold up. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

General WALKER. We are all working in the best interests of this thing. I don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. You know whether the information is any good or not, and I don't see any reason to get any more people involved than are already involved in it. The information is either correct or incorrect, and can be substantiated by your Commission, or it is not.

This that I am telling you is the information I have got. Now, if you all find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, but revelation of the names of the people isn't necessary to your information with regard to the assassination. I think we have covered the assassination, and--as helpful as I can be--don't think I wouldn't be delighted to see exactly all the truth that can probably come out of it, come out of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. All we are asking you to do is give us whatever information you have that can help us in this investigation.

General WALKER. That I think we have covered, haven't we?

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't know whether we have or not.

General WALKER. If you find out you need the further information that will really help the assassination story--we will leave it like this--I will do the best I can to cooperate on it, but I don't think it is necessary to reveal all the sources of my information, and the story which you all should have the basic facts. The basic facts are the records on the story and you either know whether or not they are true or not. I haven't done all this investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I am not able to make a determination as to whether or not the information that you have would be helpful to the Commission's work because I don't know what information you have.

General WALKER. Let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we will reveal it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am going to let the question stand. I do ask you to tell me who advised you or who apprised you of information that Oswald picked up Jack Ruby's car, because I am not able to make a determination as to whether or not that information would be worthless to the Commission. It might be helpful and it it might be that these people should be questioned by people on the Commission staff or by the FBI. So for that reason, I am compelled to let the question stand, and I do renew my request for you to give me the answer.

General WALKER. I will answer that at some later date if you find it necessary, I will reconsider it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can you tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald had, as that is the statement that started all this? You indicated that Ruby and Oswald had common acquaintances.

General WALKER. I thought DeMar's statements--I believe the man is DeMar--were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the newspaper, if you call that hearsay.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other indication that Oswald and Ruby were connected?

General WALKER. I am going back on the other question. I say it was only from newspapers. They have been also from the owner or editor of the newspaper, who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch with DeMar. I believe the town is on the Tennessee-Kentucky border or somewhere up there. I don't recall the name of the town where he was at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is DeMar that was up there?

General WALKER. Yes. Have I got the right name? DeMar is the man that was on the program in one of Rubenstein's clubs.

Mr. LIEBELER. The name seems familiar to me. I don't know the man's name actually myself.

General WALKER. As I recall, it was DeMar, the one that made the original statement that he saw Oswald in the club one night. That was printed in the press.

Mr. LIEBELER. Aside from the fellow DeMar having made the statement, do you know of any other connection between Ruby and Oswald or any other common acquaintances that they may have?

General WALKER. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short period living in the same apartment house where Ruby's sister lived.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is Ruby's sister's name?

General WALKER. Eva Grant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what apartment house that is?

General WALKER. No; I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who verified this?

General WALKER. I say I believe I verified it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did yourself?

General WALKER. With assistance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are telling me that you conducted an investigation of some sort into the possibility that Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, and Oswald lived in the same apartment house? Now is that in the city of Dallas?

General WALKER. That is correct. And as I recall the address, I never did pinpoint it, but as I recall, it wouldn't be too far from where I live. And of course, I am still interested in my case with respect to Oswald, if there is any significance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me when they were supposed to have lived in this apartment house?

General WALKER. I don't recall the date.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it 1963?

General WALKER. This is getting pretty old in my mind. It definitely would have been in 1963; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

General WALKER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was the apartment on Neely Street, if you remember?

General WALKER. As I recall--is Neely over in Oak Cliff or on this side?

Mr. LIEBELER. It is in Oak Cliff.

General WALKER. No; it wasn't that far away.

Mr. LIEBELER. It wasn't in Oak Cliff at all?

General WALKER. Well, I had the idea at the time that it was on this side of town, out the side I am on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, from the time Oswald came back from the Soviet Union and moved to Dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an apartment on Neely Street, and on Elsbeth Street and in a room on Marsalis Street, and 1026 North Beckley Street. Those are the only four places he ever lived. Was it on any one of those four streets that this is supposed to have happened?

General WALKER. I can't recall definitely. Are they over in Oak Cliff?

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe each and every one of them, with the possible exception of Marsalis, is.

General WALKER. I can get the information that I must have recorded somewhere on the address we have.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you have any indication that Oswald lived in the same apartment house that Ruby's sister lived, I will appreciate it very much if you would supply it to the Commission.

General WALKER. Take a note on that, will you. I believe there is a paper release on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would indicate any connection between Ruby and Oswald? By that question I do not mean to characterize the previous testimony.

General WALKER. If Oswald was the one that was at my house, I wonder where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the Las Vegas Club is not too far from my house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any indication that Oswald went to that club?

General WALKER. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information that would suggest a connection between these two men?

General WALKER. I think the two boxes in the post office are very interesting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, are you suggesting that because two men both happened to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that suggests there is some connection between them and indicates conspiracy to assassinate the President?

General WALKER. The boxes were rented the same week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were what?

General WALKER. I believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the post office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rented?

General WALKER. Rented.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that suggests a conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate the President?

General WALKER. I think that is more information.

Mr. LIEBELER. But I want to know.

General WALKER. That suggests a possible relationship. I think the fact that Rubenstein shot Oswald suggests plenty. I am convinced he couldn't have shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but to keep him quiet. That is what shooting people does. I think the whole city of Dallas is very interested. I would be interested in the information on a Professor Wolf, William T. Wolf.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is he?

General WALKER. William T.

Mr. LIEBELER. What information is that?

General WALKER. The first man we found in the paper that seemed to have come to death after the attempted shot at me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding that. Would you tell me about Dr. Wolf?

General WALKER. William T. Wolf is a professor that was supposedly burned up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man up, a normal man with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he couldn't have been trapped in it on the first floor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Dr. Wolf?

General WALKER. Never heard of him until I read about him in the paper, and I believe I read about him 8 days after they shot at me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think there is some connection between Dr. Wolf's death and the shot at you?

General WALKER. No; but I think there is some connection with respect to what is going on in Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate President Kennedy?

General WALKER. I think many unusual deaths in the city of Dallas might show some indication of what is going on in Dallas, to include what happened on the 22d of November. And I would refer to one other, a professor by the name of Deen. His name is George C. Deen.

Mr. LIEBELER. What has that got to do with the assassination of President Kennedy? What are the facts about it?

General WALKER. I would think it has to do with the investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, in what way?

General WALKER. It seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of psychiatry at Timberlawn would, so far as I can tell, only show up in the obituary page.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened to this fellow?

General WALKER. Reported died of natural causes, I believe, or certainly nothing more than the obituary, so far as I can find.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the organization known as The Minutemen?

General WALKER. In general terms.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a member of that organization?

General WALKER. I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between The Minutemen and the assassination of President Kennedy?

General WALKER. I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part of any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of President Kennedy?

General WALKER. I do not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between any of the people who associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a political leader, and the assassination of President Kennedy?

General WALKER. No. People that follow me are for constitutional government. This is absolutely in violation of constitutional government. Very destructive to what we stand for.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you say that there is no involvement of any kind or nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that associate with you or are involved with you in the assassination of President Kennedy?

General WALKER. I certainly know of none, and I certainly wouldn't be suspicious of any. I would be suspicious from the center to the left.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you don't have any knowledge of or information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or involvement of any rightwing organization or person; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I asked General Watts to bring whatever records you have that would indicate your whereabouts in October and after that in 1963. Particularly, I want to know whether you were at a political rally or meeting that was held immediately prior to the visit of Adlai Stevenson to the city of Dallas in October of 1963.

General WALKER. Yes, I was the speaker on the day before Mr. Stevenson appeared in the auditorium. I was the speaker in the same room and the same platform on October 22.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that event called U.S. Day?

General WALKER. U.S. Day rally.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many people would you say were there at that rally?

General WALKER. The room holds about 1,700 seats, and there were about 1,300 to 1,400.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald claims to have been at that meeting?

General WALKER. No, sir; I wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know he was there at the time?

General WALKER. I don't know yet.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you didn't know then?

General WALKER. Certainly didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall speaking--pardon me, not speaking, but going to any meetings of anti-Castro Cuban groups during the month of October 1963?

General WALKER. During what month?

Mr. LIEBELER. October.

General WALKER. I don't remember a date of attendance.

Mr. LIEBELER. Isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here in Dallas sponsored by an organization known as DRE, which is a revolutionary group that is opposed to Fidel Castro? Do you remember that?

General WALKER. What does DRE stand for?

Mr. LIEBELER. It is the initials of a lot of Spanish words which stands for the Student Revolutionary Council. It is an anti-Castro organization.

General WALKER. What does DRE stand for? How would they have advertised themselves?

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it is probably DRE.

General WALKER. Meaning what?

Mr. LIEBELER. It is Spanish words I am not familiar with.

General WALKER. Well, there is a student directorate group, which I remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified themselves. I attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers.

Mr. LIEBELER. They came from Miami?

General WALKER. I believe they came from Miami.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you contributed $5 to the organization that night?

General WALKER. I believe I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at that meeting?

General WALKER. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination on November 22, 1963?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior to that time?

General WALKER. None at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or since that time?

General WALKER. Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him, unless Duff turns out to be.

General WATTS. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench?

General WALKER. That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me anything to refresh me?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a Munich, Germany, newspaper.

General WALKER. No; I don't know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to him?

General WALKER. Not that I know of.