Chapter IV: Part 4

Mr. PIC. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us.

In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January 1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and I, to see her.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions?

Mr. PIC. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not elaborate.

Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with."

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school?

Mr. PIC. I am not quite there, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point of January 1953 you were not aware.

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in the Coast Guard.

Mr. PIC. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.

She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.

Mr. JENNER. What was her response to that?

Mr. PIC. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going.

Mr. JENNER. She had no control over him?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you were quite aware of that, were you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss that with her?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisen or----

Mr. PIC. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by.

Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and take yourself back.

Mr. PIC. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. What did you and Robert do about it?

Mr. PIC. Not much, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had the love and affection for you?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14-16. There was no big troubles he got into that any kid does.

Mr. JENNER. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, first?

Mr. PIC. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group.

Mr. JENNER. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play.

Mr. JENNER. Was that noticeable to you?

Mr. PIC. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.

Mr. JENNER. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite headstrong?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him?

Mr. PIC. That is absolutely true, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January 1953.

Mr. PIC. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of time?

Mr. PIC. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen her on several occasions.

Mr. JENNER. During this----

Mr. PIC. Downtown where she worked.

Mr. JENNER. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer of 1953 or had she changed jobs?

Mr. PIC. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than Lerner's?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection?

Mr. PIC. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops?

Mr. PIC. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was.

Mr. PIC. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it.

Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better.

Mr. JENNER. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next date you gave, September of 1953?

Mr. PIC. August-September 1953.

Mr. JENNER. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion with her about Lee?

Mr. PIC. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was working out fine.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't afford to do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had a wife and child by that time?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your compensation?

Mr. PIC. For what, sir?

Mr. JENNER. In the service at this time.

Mr. PIC. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month.

Mr. JENNER. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mother-in-law, wife and child?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent?

Mr. PIC. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, I don't remember, sir, that incident at all.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953.

Mr. JENNER. Where did her sister live?

Mr. PIC. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at the Naval hospital there for school purposes.

When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address.

Mr. JENNER. Why not?

Mr. PIC. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and I didn't have too much to say to her.

Mr. JENNER. During this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother?

Mr. PIC. To a certain degree.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior to that.

Mr. JENNER. You did see him----

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right; go ahead.

Mr. PIC. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost 2 years.

I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter _Halfmoon_, which is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir.

It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that my mother called me from New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. By telephone?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.

Mr. JENNER. You were then in New York?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. PIC. My mother informed me of this fact.

Mr. JENNER. By letter?

Mr. PIC. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my mother--let me make sure that date is right--I am fairly certain, sir; that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas holidays of 1958--that she visited us.

Mr. JENNER. She did come to New York?

Mr. PIC. Right. She come to--we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.

She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you learned that through correspondence?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. With her.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people to town and things like this.

Mr. JENNER. I think she was employed for a while in an organization called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.

Mr. PIC. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was Christmas of 1957, is that right?

Mr. ELY. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon greets people.

Mr. PIC. Is this 1957 when she had that job?

Mr. JENNER. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character.

Mr. PIC. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the 10th of January, sometime.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did she say?

Mr. PIC. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the Marine Corps. He just liked it.

Mr. JENNER. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.

Mr. JENNER. He was discharged in the spring of 1956-1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.

Mr. PIC. I don't know that.

Mr. JENNER. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.

Mr. PIC. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.

Mr. ELY. 1956.

Mr. JENNER. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, mustered out in 1956?

Mr. PIC. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.

After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call.

Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left Mitchel and departed cross country.

Mr. JENNER. You and your wife and children?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By what, automobile?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By this time you owned an automobile?

Mr. PIC. My second one.

Mr. JENNER. Second one?

Mr. PIC. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen.

Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside then?

Mr. PIC. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind of circle or something?

Mr. JENNER. Do you have that?

Mr. PIC. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth.

Mr. PIC. That isn't familiar.

Mr. JENNER. It is not familiar?

Mr. PIC. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time. Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West Fifth Street is probably about the same place.

Mr. JENNER. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident occurred?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am getting to that.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything.

Then the Sunday that we were there--well, prior to this, when we arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?

Mr. PIC. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time?

Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I know she was working at a candy counter.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was invited to this dinner.

Mr. JENNER. At your brother's?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat. After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me to come get our bags, that we would have to leave.

So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for this when we threw her and Lee out.

I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her, talked to her, anything.

Mr. JENNER. Or seen her.

Mr. PIC. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So, we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's suspend for dinner.

Mr. PIC. Could I just add one thing, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. You were informed by your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there.

Mr. JENNER. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was?

Mr. PIC. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10 November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend.

Mr. JENNER. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you were there in 1958?

Mr. PIC. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and got them and drove back all in the same trip.

Mr. JENNER. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and came to Fort Worth.

Mr. PIC. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a statement.

Mr. JENNER. What testimony of Marilyn Murret?

Mr. PIC. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here, no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in Europe.

Mr. JENNER. Who informed you?

Mr. PIC. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I will go into that right after dinner.

Mr. PIC. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We will suspend until 7:30.

(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 7:55 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. When we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in August, I believe it was 1958, when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to California on your assignment to Japan.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you read me the last answer of the witness, please?

(The answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn Murret is your cousin?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. One of the children of Charles and Lillian Murret?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your wife and children accompany you to Japan?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Japan about when?

Mr. PIC. 10 November 1958, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware before you left for Japan that Marilyn Murret, was in Japan?

Mr. PIC. She was not in Japan then, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You arrived in Japan and went over there sometime while you were in Japan. By the way, first where were you stationed?

Mr. PIC. My military address was U.S.A.F. Hospital, Tachikawa, APO 323, San Francisco, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. You heard from or saw Marilyn Murret after you got there?

Mr. PIC. Right. In approximately October-November, early November, the end of October 1959 she called me up at the hospital, and it had been years since I had seen her, and she told me she had come from Australia. She was traveling around the world, and I invited her out to the house the next weekend.

She couldn't come during the week. She was teaching school in Japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. So she visited us on a Sunday, I believe.

We talked about the family and everything. She talked about Lee, about how proud he was to be in the Marine Corps, and he really put on a big show about this.

Mr. JENNER. How did she know that, did she reveal?

Mr. PIC. She had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the Marine Corps. She described him in uniform, and----

Mr. JENNER. You had the impression she had actually seen him in Japan?

Mr. PIC. No; she wasn't in Japan the same time he was. This is a year after I am in Japan, sir, before I had seen her.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. And she had seen him when he first joined the Marine Corps, is my impression, sometime while he was in the Marine Corps and in the States.

Mr. JENNER. You had the impression that Lee had visited their home in New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is the impression I got.

Mr. JENNER. Go on.

Mr. PIC. Well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, I never answered any of her letters. Maybe I would receive a letter from her every once, every 2 or 3 months. I also was aware of the fact that Lee was going to be discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. You became aware of that through what means?

Mr. PIC. The letters I would receive from my mother. She informed me that Marilyn Murret--that Lee upon his discharge had gone to Europe. I asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money and she said he saved it while he was in the Marine Corps.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say he had gone to Europe?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "Do you know that Lee is in Europe?" I said, "No, I don't know that." I had no way of knowing that. So I started asking her about him, and this is what she told me that Lee had gone to Europe.

It was that night, sir, on the 9 o'clock news that I learned that Lee had defected.

Mr. JENNER. You say 9 o'clock news--was that----

Mr. PIC. Japan time, sir, that night.

Mr. JENNER. I mean, what source was the news?

Mr. PIC. American Armed Forces Network. My wife and I were in bed, and I was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she nudged me and told me, and I said, "No, it couldn't be." So the next day it appeared in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. What paper?

Mr. PIC. The Stars and Stripes, sir. Then I heard it on the radio again the next day. There were a couple or three articles in the Stars and Stripes about his defection. And I reported to the OSI and told them who I was, and I told them who he was. Then I got in contact with the Embassy in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. That is the American Embassy?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and attempted to contact Lee. The only thing I could get out was a telegram. I think my quote in the telegram was "Please reconsider your actions." This, I understand, was delivered to him at the Metropole Hotel in Moscow. After this defection I received several----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When you heard this what was your reaction?

Mr. PIC. I didn't believe it. I mean my wife told me it was him, and I think I stayed awake until the 10 o'clock news to hear it and they mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper and that is when I reported to the OSI.

Mr. JENNER. What is OSI?

Mr. PIC. Office of Special Investigator, I believe, for the Air Force.

Mr. JENNER. Well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it was your brother what was your reaction?

Mr. PIC. It was hard to believe. It was just something you never expect.

Mr. JENNER. Had he done or said anything during all your life together which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir, ever since he was born and I was old enough to remember, I always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to strike Lee in some way or another, and when this happened I figured this was it. In fact, on the very day of the assassination I was thinking about it when I was getting ready to go to work, and just, I was thinking about him at that time and I figured well, when he defected and came back--that was his big tragedy. I found out it wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. Would you give me--elaborate on that. Why did you have a feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great tragedy?

Mr. PIC. I don't know. It was just one of those things I can't explain. I always had this feeling about him. Not as a kid, of course, but in my young adulthood I thought that about him, especially after the incident in New York. I thought this way. I had this feeling.

Mr. JENNER. You had a feeling at any time that he was groping for a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life?

Mr. PIC. I think he resented the fact that he never really had a father, especially after he lost Mr. Ekdahl and his one and only chance to get what he was looking for. Maybe that is why he looked to Robert and I like he did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see Marilyn Murret again?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she and I never discussed this. Those were the orders of OSI, not to discuss it with anyone. I made them aware of her, her presence in Japan. I don't know if they ever contacted her or not, sir. I told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was in Europe. How she knew, I don't know, sir. And everything I have read states that no one knew he was going.

Mr. JENNER. But she was in your home?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The very day that the announcement was made?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That Lee had defected to Russia?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. I had the hi-fi, she liked classical music, and I was playing some of my records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio broadcasts. She came about noon. Maybe it was on prior to this, I don't think so, because at 9 o'clock----

Mr. JENNER. If it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention any defection? All she said to you was, "Did you know that Lee was in Europe?" Is that correct?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. She didn't specify any country. In fact, I asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. She just knew he was in Europe. She had come from Australia to Japan. I think she may have been in Japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little less probably.

Mr. JENNER. You saw her again after that, did you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she visited our house several times. I think the last time we seen her was about April or May 1960 when she left Japan. We never seen her again. She said she would contact us and tell us when she was leaving, but she never did.

Mr. JENNER. What was your assignment in Japan?

Mr. PIC. I was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you return to the United States?

Mr. PIC. July 1962, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And to where did you return?

Mr. PIC. To Lackland Air Force Base where I am presently stationed. In Japan, there is more that happened, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. I received--I wrote Lee, I mean Robert, and asked him about this. Of course in Japan we didn't get much news and the OSI wouldn't tell me too much. The Embassy, all they confirmed is that he did defect. I guess in a period of 2, 3 months I got information from Robert through several letters. Every time I got some information I went to the OSI about this. It seems there was a letter, I don't remember if Robert had copied it from Lee's letter or he had sent me the original letter. I showed this, I gave it to the OSI. If they gave it back, it is destroyed now, sir. In this letter he said that no one should try to contact him because the American capitalists would be listening over the phone. He mentioned that he had been contemplating this act for quite awhile. That no one knew it. This is all in my OSI report.

And from what other information I had, I received the impression that him turning toward communism or Marxism, whichever you want to call it, took place while he was in Japan and in the Marine Corps, sir, from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own statements.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, Sergeant, in all your association with your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward democracy, communism, Marxism, or any other form of government?

Mr. PIC. Sir, the last time he talked to me, I think he was only about 12, 13 years old.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the answer is no?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is the answer--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is that there hadn't been any such discussions?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You--I take it from that answer--you never heard him assert any views?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. On his part, with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

While I was processing to return to the States, I had seen in the paper and everything that Lee was returning to the United States. When I got my assignment to Lackland, the OSI kind of put it to me that if I didn't want to be in the same vicinity as Lee that they could change my orders, and I told them that the United States felt he was reliable enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that I would see no reason to change my assignment. The OSI authorities said there was no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. So I didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these reasons. Being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the time of your return to the United States?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; the only thing I knew about him was what I read in the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child.

Mr. JENNER. When you say newspapers this is the Stars and Stripes?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; Stars and Stripes.

Mr. JENNER. That is before you returned to this country you had read in the Stars and Stripes that he had returned to the United States?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was on his way, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was on his way back?

Mr. PIC. He was on his way back at the same time I was on my way back.

Mr. JENNER. You knew he was on his way back, according to the Stars and Stripes, with his wife and child?

Mr. PIC. Yes; sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived at Lackland Air Force Base when?

Mr. PIC. I arrived in the San Antonio area approximately the 21st of July 1962, and got a house, got settled and then I signed in on my base in August. I was permitted 30 days leave, 13 days travel time, which I took advantage of. I think I took 27 days leave. So I started work in August, the latter part of August.

Mr. JENNER. During that period of time of your 30 days' leave, after arriving at Lackland Air Force Base and San Antonio, did you make any attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I called Robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, and he told me Lee was back, and he was living in Dallas and working there, and everything seemed to be okay.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother tell you that Lee, when he returned to this country, had lived with him for a while?

Mr. PIC. I don't know if it was in these conversations. I learned at the Thanksgiving reunion that he did.

Mr. JENNER. Which was Thanksgiving of 1962?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time you saw your brother, I take it, you saw him Thanksgiving 1962?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we arrived at my brother Robert's Thanksgiving Day between about 11:30, 12:30.

Mr. JENNER. In the morning?

Mr. PIC. In the morning. We were to meet Lee and his wife at the Greyhound bus station approximately 2 o'clock. So Robert and I went down to pick him up. We picked them up outside the Greyhound bus station. Whether or not they--we had no way of seeing them getting off a bus. They were at the station when we got there. We did all the friendly sayings and I was----

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what happened now? What was the attitude, what were your impressions?

Mr. PIC. Well, I still was wondering if he was going to have this feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. He introduced me to his wife, and I gave her a kiss, and his child. We got in the car, and he said I hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. At no time did Marina speak any English. She would ask him questions in what I believe was Russian and he would talk back to her in--and talk through.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with him on that subject--where he had learned Russian?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir, I knew he had been in Russia over 2 years, so evidently he had learned Russian while there.

Mr. JENNER. There was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to you to ask him about how and when he had learned?

Mr. PIC. I wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to his life in Russia?

Mr. PIC. We let him do the talking, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he speak of it?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. PIC. He told us he worked in a factory there.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say what kind of work he did?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a factory it was?

Mr. PIC. Something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, I believe. He told me he was making about $80 a month, I think, while he worked there.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that salary? Was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay rent for his quarters?

Mr. PIC. He didn't talk about anything prior to him and Marina being married.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion of his as to why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of his defection or attempted defection?

Mr. PIC. Per se, no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are qualifying that. You say per se.

Mr. PIC. Right. He did mention that because of his actions he had received a dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps and that he was attempting to get this changed to an honorable status.

Mr. JENNER. Did he appear bitter about it?

Mr. PIC. He showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad conduct, something like that. I think it was dishonorable. He showed it to me.

Mr. JENNER. What was his--what impression did you have as to his overall attitude? What impression did you have as to his state of mind?

Mr. PIC. He impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't really enjoy his stay in Russia. He commented about the hard life they had there.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say about that?

Mr. PIC. What did he say, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. A shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a lot of cabbage. He did say that the U.S. Government gave him the money to come back on. He was in the process of paying them back. In fact, he let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay the Government back.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say "regardless of anything else, I am going to pay them back"? On what do you base that conclusory statement?

Mr. PIC. Well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the Government back.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say about his financial situation?

Mr. PIC. He didn't give me--this is what he gave me for an address. He said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. They had no television, no radio, no coffee pot. In fact, we brought him a coffee pot for a present. Gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a stuffed animal of some type.

Mr. JENNER. Thanksgiving Day you did this?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How come you brought him a coffee pot?

Mr. PIC. I was going to give him a present.

Mr. JENNER. It is the coffee pot that interests me. Here you hadn't seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift--why were you----

Mr. PIC. Well, my wife being a Yankee----

Mr. JENNER. Why did you bring him a coffee pot?

Mr. PIC. My wife in her Yankee ways believed when you don't see people a long time you bring them a gift. It's just a token. We brought my brother Robert a present, a set of dishes I had in Japan, I bought them in Japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without giving the other people something.

Mr. JENNER. It isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. I can understand that. That would be, I might be even a little surprised if you hadn't. It is the particular gift in which I am interested. Why did you select a coffee pot? Was there something that led to that particular selection on your part?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. It was one of these that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. And my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would give them one.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what Robert said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just completely exhaust your recollection.

Mr. PIC. Well, Lee informed us that he was working at some type photography printing company.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You were advised during the course of that day he was then at that time living in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is what he said.

Mr. JENNER. And working in some kind of photographic work in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. I said he referred to their living conditions.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. PIC. They had a one-room, I think it was one room. They ate and slept in the same room, I believe. They had no radio, no TV. That Marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about supermarkets. Every time she went in one she lost control of herself.

Marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. Lee appeared to be a good father in that he would relieve Marina the burden of holding the child and taking care of it.

Mr. JENNER. How was he attired when you met him at the bus station?

Mr. PIC. He had on a sport jacket and tie. Sports jacket and tie.

Mr. JENNER. He was clean and neat?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did Marina and your brother Lee appear to be getting along?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; being they only spoke Russian to each other, I don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other married couple married a year or 2.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation during the course of the day in which you participated or overheard as to Marina's undertaking to learn English?

Mr. PIC. Well, my sister-in-law, Vada----

Mr. JENNER. That is Robert's wife?

Mr. PIC. Wife. Of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say to each other, and through my wife, I found out what Vada had said to her, that Lee did not permit Marina to wear any lipstick, he did not permit her to learn English. My wife, she thought this was really absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a TV set and let her sit home and learn English. My wife thought it was terrible the way her conditions were as far as this was concerned. The girls seemed to gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said by Vada or your wife on that occasion as to the reason why Lee was not permitting Marina to learn English and speak it and write it?

Mr. PIC. Well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn English she would wise up, being we had seen the Japanese wise with their husbands. For example, while they were living over in Japan and the wife is usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, she gets her American ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all the other American wives do. And my wife was under the impression that this would happen if once she did learn English and everything.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Keep talking about what occurred on this particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you exhaust all of your recollection.

Mr. PIC. Well, Marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. At no time did we mention our mother. She wasn't present. In fact--I will take that statement back.

Some time during our stay there Vada mentioned that she had seen my mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. This may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. We stayed there Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and we left Sunday.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the course of that occasion or in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how Vada and Marina had gotten along while the Oswalds, your brother, and she lived with your brother Robert and your sister-in-law Vada?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't remember that, sir. If it was any talk it was probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which is small talk to the men, of course.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn on that day that Lee had lived with your brother for a while?

Mr. PIC. I had learned during that time period that Lee and Marina had lived with Robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by the press and TV to contact them, but Robert wouldn't let them. He wasn't going to go through it again. Robert only had a one--two-bedroom apartment, I mean house, and I am sure when we stayed there we were crowded a little bit. My wife and I slept on the floor, and I am sure Marina and Robert, I don't know where they slept--I mean Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept on a mattress on the floor?

Mr. PIC. A couple of blankets on the floor, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn during that period of time that Lee had lived with your brother for a time?