Chapter VI: Part 6

Mr. JENNER. Now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the contents in due course after they were posted?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession since that time?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Have you also produced for us some additional correspondence between your mother and yourself?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Being exclusively letters from her to you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. They being in the following series: Exhibit No. 31-A, an envelope addressed to you postmarked June 3, 1950----

Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, Tex. What is the return address?

Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that is marked Exhibit No. 31-B?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked Exhibit No. 32-A. Is it postmarked?

Mr. PIC. Partial postmark, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How much of it can you read?

Mr. PIC. Texas 1950, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 32-B, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Enclosed with the envelope we have identified?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit is what?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-A, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Postmarked?

Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, August 23, 1950.

Mr. JENNER. What return address?

Mr. PIC. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. The contents have been marked?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 33-B, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The letter from your mother to you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Enclosed in that envelope?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Is just a letter dated Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. PIC. Is just a letter marked Exhibit No. 34.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is it dated?

Mr. PIC. The only mention is the word Saturday, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It is undated?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You received it in due course?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Some time or other?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you did not retain the envelope?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell from its content approximately when you received it? Was it after you entered the Coast Guard?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; definitely after I entered the Coast Guard, in fact it mentions the Korean war, so it was after the onset of the Korean war.

Mr. JENNER. Was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, the envelope being postmarked August 23, 1950, being the previous exhibit?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The next exhibit.

Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 35-A, sir, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex.; return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. What is the postmark date?

Mr. PIC. September 22, 1950.

Mr. JENNER. Contents marked?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 35-B, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Being a letter from your mother to you?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-A bearing the postmark 27 September 1950, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing Street, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. And postmarked at Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; postmarked at Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Its contents marked--what is the exhibit number on the contents?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 36-B, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then the next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. The next Exhibit No. 37-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., December 28, 1950, no return address.

Mr. JENNER. The contents?

Mr. PIC. Christmas card marked Exhibit No. 37-B with a short note.

Mr. JENNER. In the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 38-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., January 19, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents of envelope marked Exhibit No. 38-B containing a letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope Exhibit No. 39-A postmarked Fort Worth Tex., April 6, 1951. The only thing made out on the return address is "M.O. 7408 Fort Worth, Texas."

Mr. JENNER. Contents?

Mr. PIC. Contents Exhibit No. 39-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 40-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 2, 1951, return address, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, contents Exhibit No. 40-B letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 41-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., 7 May 1951, return address 7408, Mrs. M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents letter marked Exhibit No. 41-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. A letter, envelope marked Exhibit No. 42-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 4, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 42-B, letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 43-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., June 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 43-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 44-A postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., July 13, 1951, return address M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 44-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 45-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., February 8, 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents Exhibit No. 45-B, a letter from my mother to myself, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Next exhibit?

Mr. PIC. Envelope marked Exhibit No. 46-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., May 8, 1952, M. Oswald, 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex., contents marked Exhibit No. 46-B, letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. JENNER. The last of the series?

Mr. PIC. An envelope marked Exhibit No. 47-A, postmarked Fort Worth, Tex., dated 5th of March 1952, return address M. Oswald 7408 Ewing, Fort Worth, Tex. Contents marked Exhibit No. 47-A also. The letter from my mother to myself.

Mr. JENNER. OK, that is a mistake then. We will change that marking to Exhibit No. 47-B, which I am now doing.

The letters that have been identified with Exhibit No. 31-A and concluding with Exhibit No. 47-B, are all in the handwriting of your mother, are they not?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it is correspondence which you received in due course on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various envelopes were postmarked?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you have retained them in your possession in the entire time?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There is an exhibit still before you marked John Pic Exhibit No.----

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 59.

Mr. JENNER. What is that?

Mr. PIC. This appears to be a "shot" record of Lee Harvey Oswald written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of August 7, 1951.

Mr. JENNER. How did that come into your possession?

Mr. PIC. It was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I offer those exhibits now commencing with Exhibit No. 31-A to and including Exhibits Nos. 47-B, plus 59, in evidence.

(The documents referred to were marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 31-A to 47-B, inclusive, and Exhibit No. 59 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals back with you to San Antonio. Those exhibits consisting of the photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated and returned to you in due course.

Mr. PIC. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Direct your attention, if you will, to Exhibit No. 9-A, an envelope and its contents, Exhibit No. 9, this being a letter from Fort Worth, June 9, 1950, to you at Brooklyn, N.Y.

There is an inside page reading, "Mother called in on and told some of my problems." Do you find that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Uncle Dutz wired $75. That is your uncle Charles Murret?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And then it reads, "And Lee was invited to spend a couple of weeks, so I sent him on the train by himself. To what is your mother referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $75 by your uncle?

Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was between jobs. Further down she states she is starting on a new job Monday.

Mr. JENNER. Does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered 3, I believe, as McDonald Kitchens is the name?

Mr. PIC. She first refers to it on the one where it begins, "Mother called in on".

Mr. JENNER. Now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then there is a page numbered 3?

Mr. PIC. That is right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Which referred to McDonald's Kitchens as the name and what they do is cook food for commercial use?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. "I will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also."

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a job she was about to obtain?

Mr. PIC. I can only assume from the letter, sir; I have no other knowledge of that.

Mr. JENNER. She makes a reference on that page "Haven't sold the house as yet but have a good prospect." Calling your attention to the date, June 9, 1950, what house was that?

Mr. PIC. I am sure this refers to the little house in Benbrook, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It refers to people called DeLogans. Who are they?

Mr. PIC. I assume these people were renting the house from her, I don't remember them.

Mr. JENNER. That was a duplex of some kind?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; that was this little L-shaped house.

Mr. JENNER. In all this correspondence, Sergeant, by and large your mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. In your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the subject and she raised the subject to you. Was that something that was pretty constantly in her mind all the time?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did she talk about that subject at times when you were of the opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in these letters?

Mr. PIC. Will you repeat that, please, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Would you read it, please, Mr. Reporter.

(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)

Mr. PIC. I am sorry, sir; I don't understand your question.

Mr. JENNER. Were you of the opinion from time to time that on these occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was overstating this condition or status?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe she overstated it most of the time.

Mr. JENNER. Because there were purchases of houses, at least on the installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or other.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to why she was doing this; to impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait?

Mr. PIC. It is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit on every deal she got involved with.

Mr. JENNER. I am not thinking of a house sale as such. But that question was more directed to her talking about her financial circumstances.

Was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you appeared to be, and that sort of thing?

Mr. PIC. That is practically verbatim, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you have uttered what was in her mind?

Mr. PIC. No; just about what she says. She said at those times.

Mr. JENNER. Were you under the impression that she was overstating in that respect?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was that likewise the feeling of your brother Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes, I am sure it was.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether your mother was always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter?

Mr. PIC. My opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. This is her god, so to speak, was to get money. And to get as much out of me as she could and as much out of Robert as she could.

Mr. JENNER. And as much out of anybody else as she could?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any--you talk about the difficulties with Mr. Ekdahl. Do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. That was the basis of all the arguments.

Mr. JENNER. And was she complaining to him that he didn't give her enough money?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother an extravagant person money-wise?

Mr. PIC. I don't know what she did with the money, sir. She bought very little as far as clothes and things. We didn't eat steak every day. We didn't eat that good. In fact, when I joined the service in 1950, I was 118 pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about 130, 140. I think within a month or two after I joined the service I was up to 145 and none of my uniforms fit me. I was--there is a picture of me in the Pasqual High School thing, and I am very thin. People couldn't recognize me from that picture. I lost a lot of weight working, and not eating too good. I would come home and have to fix my own meals.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother attentive in that respect? Did she go out of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home either after work or after school or otherwise?

Mr. PIC. If there was a majority eating there was usually something set aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven.

Mr. JENNER. You mean the member of the family who was absent at mealtime she would save something for him?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. These continued references by her to her financial needs, did you think that had an effect on Lee as well as on yourself and your brother?

Mr. PIC. It didn't affect me that much. I ignored most of them. If I had money I sent it. If I didn't, that was it. Lee was brought up in this atmosphere of constant money problems, and I am sure it had quite an effect on him, and also Robert.

Mr. JENNER. In her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked June 18, 1951----

Mr. PIC. What number is that, sir?

Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibits Nos. 19 and 19-A--she makes reference that Robert has been saving his money since January to buy a car and "gives me $15 a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is he tight) but he has saved $210 since the first of the year and is hiding"----

Mr. PIC. Hitting.

Mr. JENNER. "For $400" and so on.

Mr. PIC. Before buying a car.

Mr. JENNER. "Won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. He gets 2 weeks vacation with pay, I believe, will start in July."

Do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you?

Mr. PIC. When I went home on leave in 1950 with a hundred or so dollars, like I mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the whole amount except for about $10 from me, so nothing would happen to it, and I might get robbed or something, she felt. Whenever she could she attempted to get a buck out of any of us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any of that money back?

Mr. PIC. I got it all back and subsequently when I left I gave her, I think $50 or so.

Mr. JENNER. In that same letter she refers to, she said, "I only made $92 last month and am just starting to get leads. I am back with the same company."

To what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked June 18, 1951?

Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. It sounds to me like it would be an insurance company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother selling insurance?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I knew approximately at this time period she sold insurance.

Mr. JENNER. There is a reference to Lee taking tap dancing lessons, also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little older take voice."

Mr. PIC. I think this statement here about this practically like several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something else. Of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time I write I will say, "Hurrah, hurrah, Lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a little money to help him. She did these things. In fact, in some of her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because I stated I would help pay for the car and since I was in the service I wasn't holding up my end of the bargain.

Mr. JENNER. What about that incident?

Mr. PIC. Sir, that is in the second group of letters.

Mr. JENNER. What about this particular incident you mentioned? What are the facts about that?

Mr. PIC. Just what it states here. This is all I know, sir. What it states in this letter.

Mr. JENNER. About the dancing and voice?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear of Lee, other than this letter of Lee taking dancing lessons?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons than in this letter?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did either you or Robert ever take dancing lessons or voice lessons?

Mr. PIC. I think when we were very small and Mr. Oswald was still alive we did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the other thing to which I referred, as you made reference to something about making payments on a car. What was that about?

Mr. PIC. That would be in that second group, sir. In the second group is really the financial statements. Every one of them contained something pertaining to her finances.

Mr. JENNER. The early enlistments of yourself and Robert and Lee--do you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent references, allusions to finances?

Mr. PIC. I did not enlist as fast as the other boys. I waited a year after I was of age. I am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter of fact, I knew she mentioned when I do get in I should make out an allotment to her and so forth.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there was an incentive on the part of Lee and Robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and your brother Robert have discussions on this subject?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; we never discussed these things. It was just a feeling it was always around. We knew these things without discussing them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly dealt with in her life?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had that very definite impression?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had----

Mr. PIC. I did not have this impression. She related this to me, sir. I didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around.

Mr. JENNER. That is what I am getting at, this was an impression she was seeking to create.

Mr. PIC. That is right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You felt she did not have it any tougher. She was creating an impression that did not square with the facts?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Every time she met anyone she would remind them she was a widow with three children.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere in which Lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality?

Mr. PIC. I am sure it did, sir. Also, Lee slept with my mother until I joined the service in 1950. This would make him approximately 10, well, almost 11 years old.

Mr. JENNER. When you say slept with, you mean in the same bed?

Mr. PIC. In the same bed, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know or say when Lee came and stayed with you a short while in 1952 did he likewise sleep with your mother?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. JENNER. He had reached a measure of independence by that time?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when I left and went into the service there was a vacant bed in the house.

Mr. JENNER. And at that time was that literally the first time that Lee had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that Mr. Ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive?

Mr. PIC. Lee wasn't born when Lee Oswald was alive, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is right. Well, then, except for the time Mr. Ekdahl lived with you?

Mr. PIC. That is true, sir. That would make him about 10-1/2 years old.

Mr. JENNER. Up to the time he was 10-1/2 years old, why he roomed and slept with his mother in the same bed?

Mr. PIC. I would like to interject here.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I am seeking something of the personality of your mother and the effect on you, had an effect on Robert, and probably a more material effect on Lee, is that correct?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I am sure it did. When I reached 17, I was eligible for the service, but I was really in no hurry, I wanted to finish my high school education, and when I decided to join the Coast Guard--at that time to join the Coast Guard you needed your parent's consent up until the age of 21. I asked her for it and she hesitated and I told her if she didn't give it to me I would join another branch where I didn't need it and then I got it. I am sure that neither Robert nor Lee needed their mother's consent to join the Marine Corps at the age of 17. I know for the Coast Guard we did, sir, the Coast Guard was not a part of the Department of Defense at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Directing your attention to Exhibits Nos. 21 and 21-A, the second page of that letter, Exhibit No. 21, reads, "Robert left Friday morning for San Diego. He joined the Marines and signed for 4 years. I am glad he decided to enlist. He realized his mistake about getting married, and"--would you read the rest of it?

Mr. PIC. "And probably having to go just the same."

Mr. JENNER. "And then probably having to go just the same." Is that the incident in which your mother opposed your brother Robert's marriage to the little crippled girl?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Turn to Exhibit No. 24. There is a reference there to a lady, Ethel somebody at Holmes. Would you read that?

Mr. PIC. "Ethel Nunncy at Holmes asks about you."

Mr. JENNER. And that is--Holmes is a department store?

Mr. PIC. In New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Who was Ethel Nunncy?

Mr. PIC. She was a friend of my mother's, sir, that I had known of since I was a small--I was a baby.

Mr. JENNER. Sir, this Exchange Alley--did they have to live under these conditions?

Mr. PIC. All I know is that they lived there. She thought they did.

Mr. JENNER. Exhibit No. 31-B which is a letter from your mother to you postmarked at Fort Worth, June 3, 1950, reading "Dear John, your sense of responsibility seems nil" or null.

Mr. PIC. Nil, null.

Mr. JENNER. N-u-l-l. "Remember it was you insisted I buy the car as you planned to work at Consolidated. Well I have been in a jam financially ever since you left." What is the next word?

Mr. PIC. "Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul."

Mr. JENNER. "Until you were"----

Mr. PIC. Kept waiting and robbing Peter to pay Paul until you were finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month."

Mr. JENNER. Had you so indicated?

Mr. PIC. I don't believe so, sir. I don't see how, I wasn't making but $80 per month.

Mr. JENNER. What truth was there in her statement that it was you who insisted that she buy the car?

Mr. PIC. Well, that old jalopy I have a picture of was falling apart and before I went in the service she had a ride home from work and the generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car.

Mr. JENNER. Was that particular car about which you have just described--about which you were having trouble--was that the family car or a car owned by you?

Mr. PIC. A family car, I never owned a car, sir, when I lived at home.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace that one?

Mr. PIC. We all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't run. She had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. She would have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car pushed.

Further on, sir, "I wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $50 on my ring. I lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." Sir, I wouldn't believe that. I am sure at that time I didn't. And the way she goes on the next page, "Cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. I don't believe this.

Mr. JENNER. The next letter, Exhibit No. 32-B, and in an envelope marked in 1950, it says "Dear John, Well, I have the house in Benbrook up for sale." Could you read the name?

Mr. PIC. It appears to me to be J. Piner Powell Real Estate is handling it. Do you want me to read on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. "The problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan company won't make a new loan and I have about $2,600 in it. Nothing but bad news. Up to date I am still not working." Read on, sir?

Mr. JENNER. That is about enough. Did your mother write you a letter that had good news in it?

Mr. PIC. I never recall one, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Around your home was the atmosphere that, "We are poor but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn out all right eventually?

Mr. PIC. None of us really paid much attention to this, sir. I didn't, and I am sure Robert didn't. I don't think Lee did because Robert and I would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it.

Mr. JENNER. You heard it so often you just became inured to it, hardened to it; is that it?

Mr. PIC. Well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. Just like when my wife and I got married she sent a package containing Revere Ware which I haven't received yet and she swears up and down she sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. And I know she never sent anything. When we would be home alone, before she would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again.

Mr. JENNER. Was your----

Mr. PIC. This is prior to my going in the service, sir.

Mr. JENNER. There were times that the atmosphere around your home was depressing?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was that due largely to your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The things she said and the attitudes she assumed?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And while you and your brother got along well you boys were not getting along well with your mother in that sense?

Mr. PIC. Robert and I and Lee, we had our fights among us, like all brothers do. But we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but the atmosphere just changed when she was around.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything about whether people liked her or disliked her?

Mr. PIC. She didn't have to. She didn't have many friends and usually the new friends she made she didn't keep very long.

Mr. JENNER. That was her history?

Mr. PIC. I remember every time we moved she always had fights with the neighbors or something or another.

Mr. JENNER. Was she a person who was resentful of the status of others?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you boys were aware of that, were you?

Mr. PIC. I was aware of it. She always--I remember once when we lived on Eighth Avenue, I believe was the place, the people named McLean living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and they had some money, and my mother----

Mr. JENNER. What town was this?

Mr. PIC. This was Fort Worth, sir. My mother remarked to me once that Mrs. McLean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost $100 in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an hour about how this woman could go and waste $100 and what she could do with it and everything. She resented the fact this woman lost her own money.

Mr. JENNER. I haven't found a single letter yet, Sergeant, in which your mother fails to mention the subject of money.

Mr. PIC. You may find a Christmas card, "Love, Mother," sir.

Mr. JENNER. A letter?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't think you will. These are only part of them. I threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. They were all basically the same.

Mr. JENNER. Was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys?

Mr. PIC. I would say for myself, sir, I wasn't to her.

Mr. JENNER. What is that?

Mr. PIC. I was not toward her.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. PIC. I had no motherly love feeling toward her. Like I say, I think I first became resentful to her when she informed me I would not return to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew.

Mr. JENNER. Well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward your mother?

Mr. PIC. We had never been in a very affectionate family, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your mother?

Mr. PIC. That is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. It is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald. That is the only thing--I don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. I think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. I think she is a phony in the whole deal.

Also, I think you will find with myself, Robert and Lee, also, that we didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she does. I mean I live on my base pay and I have for years, and Robert makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never discuss money. The only time I seen Lee as an adult he didn't discuss it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way.

Mr. JENNER. It is your information, is it, that your mother's first marriage was to your father?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Her second, then, to Robert Lee Edward Oswald?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And her third to E. A. Ekdahl?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So far as you know she has not been married otherwise than those three occasions?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; Has she?

Mr. JENNER. We don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it.

Did your brother Lee on the occasion on Thanksgiving Day 1962 say anything about whether he had had a hard time in Russia?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is a hard time in the sense of earning a living?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or some other sense?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; earning a living.

Mr. JENNER. What do you recall he said in that connection?

Mr. PIC. That he made about $80 a month, and it wasn't the money so much. It was the products were not available to him and also his wife to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he was tired of cabbage, and he struck me he was not complaining about the money but the availability of food.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with Russia?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I got this impression.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the United States or its Government?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He made no comment on that subject when you saw him on Thanksgiving Day 1962?

Mr. PIC. I think his only bitter feelings that I recollect was his dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps. This was the only bitter feelings he reported to me in anyway.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to have you tell us what he said as--did he return to that subject repeatedly? What leads you now to conclude or state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that?

Mr. PIC. I think the idea of driving came up, the talk about automobiles. I also think that he made the statement----

Mr. JENNER. When you say that is your present recollection?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. I also think that he made the statement that he----

Mr. JENNER. Here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he received. He was unable to obtain a driver's license. Then he told me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several letters to the Secretary of the Navy about getting it changed.

Mr. JENNER. Did he mention the then Governor Connally in that connection?

Mr. PIC. I believe he did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Governor Connally was not then Secretary of the Navy. Did he express any resentment toward Governor Connally?

Mr. PIC. I think when he explained it to me----

Mr. JENNER. Please, you have said again "I think."

Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to me that he had written to get it changed, Governor Connally was the Secretary of the Navy. He did mention the name Connally.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling or get the impression that he was bitter toward Governor Connally as a person? He was not, then, of course----

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Secretary of the Navy.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the man he had written it to.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Fair Play for Cuba Committee on this occasion?

Mr. PIC. There was no discussion about Cuba. I think this was right after the Cuban crisis, and I think we may have talked about the mobilization a little bit.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views on that subject?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy discussed at anytime?

Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir.

He struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: One, to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay back the Government the money it had lent him to come back to the United States.

Mr. JENNER. You were interested--Charlie Murret was a dentist and a graduate of Louisiana State University. Joyce Murret married an athletic coach and lives in Beaumont, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Gene Murret you have mentioned. He is a seminarian at Mobile, Ala. Boogie Murret works for Squibb & Co. He is a graduate of Loyola of New Orleans.

Mr. PIC. Someone mentioned, I don't know if it was Vada or my brother, Robert----

Mr. JENNER. On this Thanksgiving Day occasion?

Mr. PIC. Yes; after they had left, that Marina's uncle, brother, some relation, was an officer in the Russian Army. She had stated she had a relative in the Soviet armed forces.

Mr. JENNER. It was your impression that either Vada had or Robert had?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Some of the witnesses have testified that Lee was quick to anger as a boy. Do you remember anything about that? What is your impression about that?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a considerate young man?

Mr. PIC. I think towards Robert and myself he was, sir. Towards other people, no.

Mr. JENNER. Was his attitude towards other people different from that which he had toward you and Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. In what respect--what did you notice about him in that regard?

Mr. PIC. He would rather play with us than play with other children, and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. Whenever we had a birthday or Christmas he would never forget us. I think he was very considerate towards Robert and myself.

Mr. JENNER. From time to time we have been off the record and had some discussions in discussing documents and other things. Do you recall anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here that I have failed to place on the record?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember what has been off the record, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I will put it this way then: Is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that I am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record?

Mr. PIC. If you are interested in my opinions----

Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; anything that you want to add.

Mr. PIC. I think, I believe that Lee Oswald did the crime that he is accused of. I think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him. I also think that his reason for leaving the Marine Corps is not true and accurate. I mean I don't think he cared to get out of the Marine Corps to help his mother. He probably used this as an excuse to get out and go to his defection.

I know myself I wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, and I am sure Robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that Lee wouldn't have.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do you recall, rather?

Mr. PIC. I think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But then in the later grades, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th?

Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that is about all. I sure appreciate your coming, and the Commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. You will be able to catch that 9:50 plane in the morning and get yourself back to your son's birthday party.

Mr. PIC. I hope what I have told you has been something new and not repetitious.

Mr. JENNER. Much of what you have told us has been new. Much of what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to your brother have been helpful.

That leads me to ask you this further question: Give me your overall impression of your brother Lee Oswald as a personality, as he developed.

Mr. PIC. Sir; I remember Lee Oswald as a child, up until about the age of 11 or 12. To me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would get in fights and still have his serious moments.

Mr. JENNER. You got in fights, too, didn't you?

Mr. PIC. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. These are not fights that you would regard as other than boys getting into?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. He got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, normal healthy boy.

I think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. He never showed any of this toward Robert or myself. I am afraid it probably rubbed off of Robert and myself and it affected Lee, because we didn't really take much stock into what she was saying. I don't think we were as cocky, as belligerent as he was. There was----

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother ever say anything around your home about that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor working people or anything along those lines?

Mr. PIC. No; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide for us three boys. She couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and support her.

When Lee visited us in New York he came there a friendly, nice easy-to-like kid.

Mr. JENNER. This is 1952 in the summer?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the Museum of Natural History, sightseeing excursions and so forth. Until the incident where I talked to him we never had a bad word between us other than maybe joking or playing around. I tried to interest him in a hobby of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was----

Mr. JENNER. Had he been interested in those two hobbies?

Mr. PIC. Yes; he and I, all three of us collected stamps. I played chess with Lee quite a bit and Robert, too. We all did this. Played monopoly together, the three of us.

When I approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very hostile towards me. And he was never the same again with me.

Mr. JENNER. That was the first time he had ever been hostile in that sense towards you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that rupture was never repaired thereafter?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression when you saw him on Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, resentful of his station?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous. This person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes I mentioned, to do something about.

Mr. JENNER. What purposes?

Mr. PIC. To repay the Government and get his discharge changed.

It appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not knowing the conversation between he and his wife I couldn't form much of an opinion there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir; that is about it.

Mr. PIC. OK, sir; thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. This transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it immediately and read it and sign it.

If you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the correction, or over, above, your initial somewhere around the correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as promptly as possible.

It may be that the Secret Service will bring it out, but it will be delivered to you next week.

All right.

AFFIDAVIT OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Edward John Pic, Jr., on June 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF LOUISIANA, _Parish of Orleans, ss_:

Edward John Pic, Jr., 6 Jay Street, New Orleans, La., being duly sworn says:

1. I am the same Edward John Pic, Jr., who was deposed by Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, on April 7, 1964. When Marguerite Claverie Pic and I separated after we had lived together a year, we resided in a house on Genois Street, south of Canal Street, in New Orleans. This was a rented house. The rent was either $28 or $30 per month. At no time prior to our separation did Marguerite work. During all of that period she was a housewife.

2. I neither refused nor failed to support her either during or after our marriage. There were personality and incompatibility difficulties between us commencing at an early stage of our marriage. We just couldn't get along, things kept getting worse and worse. Marguerite was aware of my earning capacity at the time we married. There were difficulties between us respecting money and household financial management, but this was only one of the sources of the difficulties. My financial situation did not worsen after our marriage.

3. Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic was not the cause of our separation. I had no objection to children. It was a coincidence that about that time we had reached the point that we could not make a go with each other any more. Our separation which was amicable and which was arranged through an attorney would have taken place irrespective of Marguerite's pregnancy with my son John Edward Pic.

4. As I testified in my deposition, Marguerite was a nice girl. I haven't anything whatsoever adverse to say against her, it is just that we couldn't get along. Our dispositions would not jell. I do not mean to imply that the fault, if any, lay with either of us. We just didn't get along.

5. My distinct recollection is that I had no difficulty maintaining the household and supporting my family though there was some difference between Marguerite and me as to the manner, style and the level on which our household should be maintained.

Signed the 16th day of June 1964.

(S) Edward John Pic, Jr.,
EDWARD JOHN PIC, Jr.

TESTIMONY OF KERRY WENDELL THORNLEY

The testimony of Kerry Wendell Thornley was taken at 9:40 a.m., on May 18, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. John Ely and Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, in the deposition you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. THORNLEY. I do.

Mr. JENNER. You are Kerry Wendell Thornley, spelled K-e-r-r-y W-e-n-d-e-l-l T-h-o-r-n-l-e-y?

Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Thornley, where do you reside now?

Mr. THORNLEY. At 4201 South 31st Street in Arlington, Va.

Mr. JENNER. Did you at one time reside at 1824 Dauphine Street in New Orleans?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your present occupation?

Mr. THORNLEY. I am a doorman at the building where I reside, Shirlington House.

Mr. JENNER. Doorman.

Mr. THORNLEY. At the building where I reside.

Mr. JENNER. What is the name of that building?

Mr. THORNLEY. Shirlington House. I also work on the switchboard there three nights a week.

Mr. JENNER. I see. By the way, Mr. Thornley, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission in which he enclosed----

Mr. THORNLEY. Confirming this appointment----

Mr. JENNER. Copies of the legislation, Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission and President Johnson's Order 11130, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties and responsibilities?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And also a copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission for the taking of depositions?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you understand the basic obligation placed upon the Commission is to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of President Kennedy, and events collateral thereto.

In the course of doing that the Commission and its staff, and I, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the Commission legal staff, have been interviewing and taking the testimony of various persons who, among other things, came in contact with a man named Lee Harvey Oswald. We understand that you had some contact with him, fortuitous or otherwise as it might be. Are we correct in that?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us the--may I ask you this first. Were you born and reared in this country?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you married or unmarried?

Mr. THORNLEY. Unmarried.

Mr. JENNER. Unmarried you said?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age?

Mr. THORNLEY. I am 26.

Mr. JENNER. When was your birthday?

Mr. THORNLEY. April 17, this last month.

Mr. JENNER. April 17 of this last month? I am poor in mathematics, what year was your birth?

Mr. THORNLEY. 1938.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with him?

Mr. THORNLEY. I was--it was around Easter of 1959, either shortly before or shortly after.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see. He was in the Marines at that time?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you also were?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long had you been in the Marines?

Mr. THORNLEY. At that time I had been in the Marines over half a year. I had been in the Reserve for many years. I had been on active duty for over half a year.

Mr. JENNER. You were then 21 years of age?

Mr. THORNLEY. About; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about what your occupation and activity had been up to the time you enlisted in the Marines.

Mr. THORNLEY. Well, the year before I was a student at the University of Southern California, and before that I was a student at California High School in Whittier, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then that you are a native Californian?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you receive your degree?

Mr. THORNLEY. No. I was--I completed my freshman year and then I went on active duty to serve my 2-year obligation in the Marine Reserve.

Mr. JENNER. You did not return to college after you were mustered out of the Marines?

Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was your discharge honorable?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.