Chapter III: Part 3

So, one night Marvin, Goldie, Sammy, my mother and I all piled into this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and Sammy acted as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "Telegram" for this woman, whoever she was. I don't remember the name. When she opened the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a nightgown negligee, Mr. Ekdahl was seated in the living room in his shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. She's got him now and all this stuff. That is about it. Well, that is all to that incident.

In September, Robert--well, in August--Robert and I in September returned to Chamberlain-Hunt, this is September 1947. During the school year 1947-48 I was informed about divorce proceedings. Christmas holidays, 1947, Robert and I returned to the house on Eighth Avenue in Fort Worth and those are the pictures of Lee sitting on the bike, it is in that time period.

Mr. JENNER. Let's identify those. I hand you Pic Exhibit Nos. 52 and 53.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. This is the front lawn of the house on Eighth Avenue and the white house in the background would be that of the attorney Mr. McLean.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take those pictures?

Mr. PIC. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. Did you take the pictures?

Mr. PIC. My brother Robert and I each had a box camera we received--no, we had the box camera before that. We took it with our box camera.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer those exhibits in evidence.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 52 and 53 were marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl living in the home at that time?

Mr. PIC. We did not see him during those holidays.

Mr. JENNER. You returned to the academy following the Christmas vacation?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you continued on through the end of that school year, did you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; to May 1948.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your impressions of Lee, he is now getting to be 8 or 9 years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at school.

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; when we were home, Robert and I, of course, that was the only time we seen Lee, he would tag along with us to the movies and everything. He did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and so forth. I don't remember observing him with the other children. I had my own problems at the age of 14. We did know that during the school year of 1947-48, divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly.

We returned from Chamberlain-Hunt in May 1948, to a house I don't remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class again.

Mr. JENNER. The house at----

Mr. PIC. It was right slap next to the railroad tracks.

Mr. JENNER. 3300 Willing Street, Fort Worth.

Mr. PIC. If that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. I remember we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. She had moved in this house a couple or 3 months prior to us returning from school.

Mr. JENNER. The divorce had taken place in the meantime?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; it had not.

Mr. JENNER. Was Mr. Ekdahl in this lower class house?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him during that summer?

Mr. PIC. No, sir--yes, sir. But not prior to May 1948. I seen him later during the summer.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. You and Robert were home during that summer of 1948, were you?

Mr. PIC. May I continue?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. When we returned home I seen this house and my first impressions were that we are back to where we were. Lee had a dog that a woman had given him, I think it is the same dog we have pictures of, and I kind of had the feeling that our days at Chamberlain-Hunt were ended even though it didn't come officially. Then sometime in the summer of 1948, the divorce took place in Tarrant County, city of Fort Worth. I had to testify. I think they attempted to put Lee on the stand but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age.

I don't remember my testimony completely. I do remember that my mother had made the statement that if Mr. Ekdahl ever hit her again that she would send me in there to beat him up or, something which I doubt that I could have done.

I was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. She lost, he won. The divorce was granted. I was also told that there was a settlement of about $1,200 and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. Right after this is when she purchased the house in Benbrook, Tex., the little house.

Mr. JENNER. Describe that house.

Mr. PIC. It was an L-shaped house, sir, being the top of the L was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. She and Lee slept together. My brother and I slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. When we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, I was----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, was that 101 San Saba?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't know nothing about 101 San Saba.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the street you were on in Benbrook; this first house?

Mr. PIC. There were no streets. We used a post office box number up at the post office there. Because I was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and I was collecting stamps and I would go pick up the mail at the post office.

Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook was on Granbury Road, that is your recollection? That is the one you have already mentioned heretofore?

Mr. PIC. Granbury Road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on Granbury Road, then that is it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, there is a letter in the file at the Hunt Military Academy in October of 1945 informing them that a new address would be Granbury Road, Route 5, Box 567 in Benbrook.

Mr. PIC. That is the one further south of Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. That is the first one?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. The house you are now mentioning in Benbrook was the summer of 1948 is different from the first one?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. JENNER. You can't remember the street address?

Mr. PIC. There was no street address. This was the first and only house built there.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. They just built up this area and she got the very first house. Two pictures there, Lee and Lee's dog and this is taken at the house in Benbrook, that house.

Mr. JENNER. Would you select those, please?

Mr. PIC. These were taken in Covington.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51. Those were taken when?

Mr. PIC. It would be the summer of 1946 at Covington, La.

Mr. JENNER. And those pictures are pictures of whom?

Mr. PIC. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. Holding a fish.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 50 and 51 were marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. The witness has now handed me two pictures, Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. The other shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and an automobile. Could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? You are looking at Exhibit what now?

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 55, sir, shows Lee's dog and the family car. This car belonged to us, that is why I brought it. The house in the background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you want to call it, and laundromat in the area. This is where we did all of our food buying.

Mr. JENNER. Shopping?

Mr. PIC. As far as the neighborhood was concerned.

Mr. JENNER. There is some writing at the top of the picture; what does it say?

Mr. PIC. This says "Blackie, 1949."

Mr. JENNER. Blackie was the name of the dog?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Take that other exhibit and tell us what it was.

Mr. PIC. This was the same dog Lee had in 1948 when we returned from the school. Exhibit No. 54 shows the same store in the background and Lee Harvey Oswald, and a dog named Blackie. And to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house.

Mr. JENNER. The house in which you lived?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 54 and 55 were marked for identification.)

Mr. PIC. After the divorce she bought the house in Benbrook, Tex., and then she was either working at or just got the job at Leonard Bros., Fort Worth, department store, Fort Worth, Tex.

At this time Robert and I were informed that we would not return to Chamberlain-Hunt in the fall. This, I think, was the first time that I actually recall any hostility towards my mother.

Mr. JENNER. On your part?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to go back. I had 2 more years in high school and I was going to be in the 11th grade and I did want to finish there.

Mr. JENNER. How did Robert react to that?

Mr. PIC. He felt the same way, sir. He wanted to go back. But we were informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for us to go back. In fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family supplement its income.

Mr. JENNER. That is withdraw from school entirely?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was 16 at this time. In September, Lee and Robert returned to school, and I went to work. I obtained a job at Everybody's Department Store which belonged to Leonard Bros. I was a shoe stock boy at the salary of $25 a week.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay some of that money to your mother?

Mr. PIC. I think at least $15 out of every pay check I did.

Mr. JENNER. $15 a week?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think my take-home pay was $22.50 after taxes. Which left me $7.50 to ride back and forth on the bus with.

Mr. JENNER. Did you continue to live in this home in Benbrook?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; about the same time that I went to work and Lee and Robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at 7408 Ewing.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. That is right, sir. It was just impossible for her and I to go to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on Ewing they could walk to school. In fact, I left for work earlier than she did, a couple of hours, in fact.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee attended school in Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the summer and moved out in the early fall.

Mr. JENNER. Had he attended a day school or a nursery school in Benbrook, Tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years?

Mr. PIC. During the summer, sir, my mother worked at Leonard Bros., the three boys were left alone at home.

Mr. JENNER. What about the previous years?

Mr. PIC. She didn't work the previous years. She was still married to Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that. I wonder if he went to nursery school--when you first went to Benbrook, Tex., when you were on Granbury Road?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know that, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have no impression?

Mr. PIC. That I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You now started to work in the fall of 1948.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The family moves into Fort Worth at 7408 Ewing Street.

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Robert enter school in Fort Worth.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct? Do you remember the school, one would be a grammar school and one a junior high school.

Mr. PIC. I think Robert went to Sterling Junior High School. In fact, she would drive him there in the morning, and Lee was going to Ridglea, West Ridglea Elementary School, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. What happened to Lee? You were working.

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Robert was in school.

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee was in school.

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Did Robert come home from school to take care of Lee when he finished?

Mr. PIC. Lee returned home before Robert did, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he do?

Mr. PIC. I have no idea, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was at work?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He would just come home and wait until somebody came home?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; there was no TV at that time so----

Mr. JENNER. Was he--what about his habits in that respect? Did--your mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house until she arrived?

Mr. PIC. I am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. He was not the type to goof off in things like this.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy reading at this stage of his life?

Mr. PIC. He always read a lot, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He did?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his--was he gregarious or not? Did he exhibit tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or the contrary?

Mr. PIC. Not too much, sir. There weren't that many children his age in the neighborhood. In fact, most of them were my age and my brother Robert's.

Mr. JENNER. Did this age gap between you and Lee and between Lee and your brother Robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now 16, Robert was 14, and Lee was 9.

Mr. PIC. We played with Lee. Lee had his dog. On the weekends, Sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. I usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself.

In the fall of 1948 it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the National Guard or Naval Reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so I was only 16 at the time, and I wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. So----

Mr. JENNER. Did you get paid for this service?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. It wasn't much money, a couple or $3 a meeting; something like that. So we went to the notary, I think, this was McLean's office and she swore to a notary that I was 17.

Mr. JENNER. But you were not in fact 17?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. PIC. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high school education.

Mr. JENNER. To what school did you return?

Mr. PIC. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to supplement your income?

Mr. PIC. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make in their stockroom plus all day Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Selling shoes?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your mother doing at this time?

Mr. PIC. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I left Everybody's, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Was Robert working after school?

Mr. PIC. Yes; he was working at the A & P.

Mr. JENNER. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the previous fall?

Mr. PIC. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both.

So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there.

The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. P-a-s-k-a-l?

Mr. PIC. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer of 1949. September of 1949----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing?

Mr. PIC. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing during the summer?

Mr. PIC. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your mother during this period?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both of you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you had started to give her in the fall of 1948?

Mr. PIC. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her.

Mr. JENNER. And was Robert contributing something as well?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. JENNER. Lee didn't work at any time?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the summer of 1949 doing any work?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. He is now 10 years old?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a 10-year-old sometimes does?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the fall of 1949.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided--well, let's go back to when I went back to high school.

Mr. JENNER. All right. It is January of 1949.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was at Ridglea.

Mr. PIC. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything.

My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get would be the best thing for me.

Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes when I played hooky and missed school.

Mr. JENNER. Signing her name?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; so in----

Mr. JENNER. By the way what kind of a student were you?

Mr. PIC. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I had a B or C average at Arlington Heights.

My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better.

Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called distributive education which means you go to school and work part time you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high class, the majority of them.

I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas holidays 1949, I was coming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I quit school and joined the Coast Guard.

At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.

So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother until October 1950, 9 months later.

Mr. JENNER. October of 1959?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; 1950. 1950.

Mr. JENNER. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee returned to school in the fall of 1949?

Mr. PIC. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then?

Mr. PIC. As far as I know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was his general attitude and his activities during this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949.

Mr. PIC. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an 8-9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my mind and other things like that, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. To be honest with you.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that time?

Mr. PIC. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would remember that better than I did.

Mr. JENNER. I don't know whether he mentioned that.

Mr. PIC. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of 1950.

Mr. PIC. That is right.

Mr. JENNER. Until when?

Mr. PIC. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950.

Mr. JENNER. What was that occasion?

Mr. PIC. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you home on leave?

Mr. PIC. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, something like that, about 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that time?

Mr. PIC. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was--well, I come home with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of my own.

Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition.

Mr. PIC. Yes, very nice man.

Mr. JENNER. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us.

Mr. JENNER. On the same side of the street?

Mr. PIC. Same side.

Mr. JENNER. Hiram Conway.

Mr. PIC. Hiram P. Conway.

Mr. JENNER. You then returned to the service?

Mr. PIC. Yes. I reported back to my ship.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?

Mr. PIC. August 1952, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know.

Mr. JENNER. At Ridglea Elementary?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as far as I know.

Mr. JENNER. Robert was still in school. He is now 16-1/2 years of age?

Mr. PIC. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave.

Mr. JENNER. What was he doing?

Mr. PIC. A & P, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact that your father contributed to your support during all the years actually until you reached your 18th birthday?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of that contribution was?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making contributions?

Mr. PIC. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was making contributions?

Mr. PIC. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments stopped right then and there.

Mr. JENNER. The fact is that they did.

Mr. PIC. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to your mother?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in the service?

Mr. PIC. Quite frequently, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount.

Mr. PIC. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you send any of the excess when you got it?

Mr. PIC. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a sailor?

Mr. JENNER. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am doing is seeking some facts.

Mr. PIC. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes.

Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2-1/2. Would you identify that, please?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2-1/2 as the picture states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. JENNER. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am sure of that.

Mr. JENNER. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which--would you identify that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. JENNER. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age?

Mr. PIC. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade.

Mr. JENNER. That would be when you were living in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Fort Worth, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.

Mr. PIC. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late 1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my wife and I in August of 1952.

Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. It is after they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58.

(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952?

Mr. PIC. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He was in the service when they came.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his majority.

Mr. PIC. So that would be April 1952.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just before he entered the service?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You came to know about that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By what means?

Mr. PIC. By way of my mother, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, what was it?

Mr. PIC. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, and she conned him out of it.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that subject at anytime?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952.

Mr. PIC. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression and also my wife's--meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are interested in this.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am.

Mr. PIC. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.

Mr. JENNER. You had met her after you had entered the service and while you were stationed in the New York area?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living where?

Mr. PIC. 325 East 92d Street, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children at that time?

Mr. PIC. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Your first child was born?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr.

Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee arrived.

Mr. PIC. Before, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they arrived.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to New York?

Mr. PIC. The impression that my wife and myself had was they were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying with them, so we had the room for them.

Mr. JENNER. But that was your mother's apartment or home?

Mr. PIC. Mother-in-law's.

Mr. JENNER. Was it an apartment or a home?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment.

Mr. JENNER. One room in back of the other?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a period during the summer that was your definite impression.

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened?

Mr. PIC. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with them.

Mr. JENNER. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean you took Lee.

Mr. PIC. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a week or so, I think.

Mr. JENNER. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but you said you took leave.

Mr. PIC. Leave.

Mr. JENNER. You took 30 days leave.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; maybe a week or two.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be with them during that 2-week period.

Mr. PIC. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August 1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other excursions we made.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little bit. We didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, but she was due back in a matter of a month or so.

During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I put my wife before my mother any day.

Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards hostility against my wife.

My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an impossibility.

It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have them, and took him up to enroll in this school.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.

Mr. ELY. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for finishing high school somehow?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's being given some sort of mental tests?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a Lutheran denominational school?

Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet.

Mr. JENNER. I see. All right.

Mr. PIC. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the TV set one day, and--between my wife and my mother. It seems that according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related to me.

Mr. JENNER. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present?

Mr. PIC. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked my mother about it.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother was home?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she was home.

Mr. JENNER. You went and spoke with your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?

Mr. PIC. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather believed my wife rather than my mother.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to Lee about the incident?

Mr. PIC. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it.

When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them from time to time thereafter?

Mr. PIC. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others?

Mr. PIC. He was definitely the boss.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell us on what you base that?

Mr. PIC. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife reminded you of that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.

Mr. JENNER. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?

Mr. PIC. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him.

Mr. JENNER. You found him to have--he was interested in that sort of thing?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished?

Mr. PIC. Not until the knife pulling incident.

Mr. JENNER. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?

Mr. PIC. I attempted to, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time?

Mr. PIC. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.

Mr. JENNER. He would not.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.

Mr. JENNER. There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. It was a marked one?

Mr. PIC. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so.

Mr. JENNER. Would you do that?

Mr. PIC. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came home from work.

Mr. JENNER. They had moved out before you came home from work?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way."

Mr. JENNER. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts.

Mr. PIC. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.

Mr. JENNER. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your nickname?

Mr. PIC. Pic.

Mr. JENNER. What was your brother Robert's nickname?

Mr. PIC. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think that hung on a while after that.

Mr. JENNER. What nickname did he have before that?

Mr. PIC. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy?

Mr. PIC. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why they called him that.

Mr. JENNER. I see, size.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever have a nickname?

Mr. PIC. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you as older brothers?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in your heart for your brother Lee?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you felt he reciprocated that?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the relationship between yourself and your brother Robert was cordial?

Mr. PIC. They always have, and still are, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I may say to you that he so testified. All right.

Mr. PIC. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.

Mr. JENNER. To visit whom?

Mr. PIC. Sir?

Mr. JENNER. To visit whom?

Mr. PIC. To visit my mother and my brother.

Mr. JENNER. Your brother?

Mr. PIC. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did your brother's wife accompany him?

Mr. PIC. He wasn't married at that time, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He wasn't married?

Mr. PIC. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, where did your brother stay?

Mr. PIC. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York.

Mr. JENNER. In any event he did not stay with you.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.

Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. He did not join you for dinner?

Mr. PIC. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.

Mr. JENNER. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you--he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak with him?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he answer you?

Mr. PIC. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't interested in anything I had to say.

Mr. JENNER. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening or was it an evening?

Mr. PIC. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son we had to get home.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a Sunday or Saturday?

Mr. PIC. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January 1950----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion?

Mr. PIC. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too much about it. I know he did not eat with us.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert?

Mr. PIC. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present him and Robert got along real good.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.

Mr. PIC. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was completely withdrawn from the crowd.

Mr. JENNER. He withdrew from everybody?

Mr. PIC. That is correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.