Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. McKENZIE. And we are about 8 feet apart now, aren't we?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the man came in, was there anyone else in the store other than Mrs. Hunter and yourself?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. I don't believe there was anyone in the store but Mrs. Hunter and myself. Now, there was probably someone on the outside.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, if I may direct this question to Mrs. Hunter; Mrs. Hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard Mrs. Whitworth testify about this morning?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, when he drove up in the car and I thought it was my friends from Houston and when I seen it wasn't, I sat back down in the chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went in and he asked her, he says, "Where is your gunsmith?"

I remember that and he had something--I won't say just what it was, because I wasn't particularly interested. I wasn't in her being down there at the time. She told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where did she tell him to go?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, now, I don't know, but it was back down east on Irving Boulevard.

Mrs. WHITWORTH. There was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back down there.

Mrs. HUNTER. There was a sport shop down there where she showed him to go. I remember that much of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. You said this man got out of the car and came to the other door, the door back to the back?

Mrs. WHITWORTH. He came to the west door.

Mrs. HUNTER. I believe if I could draw a picture of it I could explain it better that way.

[The witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] There's a partition right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would sit, at the tables and all. Over here, all there was was used clothes and things.

Mr. McKENZIE. Where is the door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Now, this is a door where I was sitting in the chair right here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come up to where her counter was. I was sitting right here in the chair and she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. When she got out with the children, she come in this door right here that I had got up and opened after I sat down there.

Mr. McKENZIE. That would be the east door?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, yes; I guess so, and she walked on around and I just sat back down and I didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that I heard the woman say.

Well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned and when he pointed, I said, "You can't go back down that way, it's a one way street. You will have to go up here to the red light and turn to your left and come back around."

Mr. McKENZIE. When you told him that, where were you standing?

Mrs. HUNTER. I was standing right in this door here.

Mr. McKENZIE. Right at the curb?

Mrs. HUNTER. No; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he catercornered down this way and I was right over here [indicating].

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way, where was Mrs. Oswald sitting?

Mrs. HUNTER. She was in the car by him and the little girl was standing up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands.

Mr. McKENZIE. And was it a two-door automobile or a four-door automobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, I wouldn't say as to that, but I believe it was a two-door, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. McKENZIE. And he was behind the wheel?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And she was sitting next to him?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. With the child between them?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. And there was no one else in the car other than the baby?

Mrs. HUNTER. If it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and I said, "Don't go back that way, it's a one-way street." I said, "Go down to the red light."

Mr. McKENZIE. What did he say then?

Mrs. HUNTER. He didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing.

Mr. LIEBELER. But from where you were standing you could see him drive the automobile out into Irving Boulevard, going down to the next red light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right?

Mrs. HUNTER. Well, he went down Irving Boulevard--I told him to go to the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you saw them drive out of the area?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they were driving west?

Mrs. HUNTER. I'll stake my life on that, that's how positive I am to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was driving the right way down the street?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could this car have been an Oldsmobile?

Mrs. HUNTER. No, sir; it was a Ford--it was just like the one that my friends had in Houston.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind?

Mrs. HUNTER. Oh, no; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a Ford?

Mrs. HUNTER. It was a 1957--I think it was a 1957 Ford instead of a 1958.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue and white?

Mrs. HUNTER. Blue and white--yes, sir.

Mr. McKENZIE. Blue on the bottom and white on the top?

Mrs. HUNTER. Yes, sir; I think I've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that I was waiting for. Could I ask her a question?

[Addressing Marina Oswald.] Don't you have a rinse on your hair now?

*Mrs. OSWALD. A rinse--yes. My hair is dark--not too dark.

Mrs. HUNTER. A dirty blonde.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, thank you.

Mrs. HUNTER. Like his [indicating Mr. Liebeler].

Mr. McKENZIE. I don't have any more questions. Mrs. Whitworth, we certainly do thank you and Mrs. Hunter, we certainly do thank you very much.

Mrs. HUNTER. How soon are you going to be through with us--the reason I want to know--I am going to be out of town next week. [Addressing Marina Oswald.] It's nice I met you in person now and your babies are very sweet.

(At this point Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter left the hearing room.)

Mr. McKENZIE. Marina, do you remember a blue and white car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--what kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know what kind of car Mr. Paine had?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't.

Mr. McKENZIE. What kind of car did Mrs. Paine have?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know that either, but all the time Mrs. Paine, she take me to the store.

Mr. McKENZIE. Mr. Gregory, what do you do in Fort Worth?

Mr. GREGORY. I am a petroleum engineer.

Mr. McKENZIE. And are you on your own over there?

Mr. GREGORY. Well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my time is with a company on salary, and I am chairman of an engineering committee.

Mr. LIEBELER. I believe you have previously testified, Marina, that the only time Lee came up to the Paine's, except on the weekends, in Irving, was on Thursday night, November 21, 1963?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the 5th or the 3d of November or September?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I was trying to figure out what day in the week that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this store--it would be Wednesday or Thursday, but Lee was never in Irving on Wednesday or Thursday at any time; is that right.

Mrs. OSWALD. Just one time when he came to see me the night before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask Mrs. Paine. You know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then?

Mr. McKENZIE. At the time when he didn't have a job, did he come?

*Mrs. OSWALD. November he had a job.

Mr. McKENZIE. But when he didn't have a job, did he come out there during the week other than weekends.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 2 days on one occasion during the week when he had no job.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He had job at that time in November.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, before Rachel was born, did he come during the week?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; I remember that only once he came--only once before Rachel was born during the week.

Mr. McKENZIE. After Rachel was born at Parkland Hospital, did he come during the week up until the time he got a job?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't come to Irving during the week at any time after Rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on Thursday night?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Rachel was born either Saturday night or Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. October the 20th?

*Mrs. OSWALD. When Rachel was born?

Mr. GREGORY. She wants to say what day of the week--it was either the 19th or 20th of October, but she wants to know the day of the week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sunday.

*Mrs. OSWALD. He was at home the weekend before Rachel was born. He sent me to the hospital Sunday night at 9 o'clock.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Well, he go working the next morning and he come to see Ruth Paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he spent the night in her house.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did Lee come to see you in the hospital, do you remember?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Monday.

Mr. LIEBELER. And on Monday night he stayed at Ruth Paine's house; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then you went home the next morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; to Ruth Paine's. Lee was at work and Ruth Paine take me from the hospital.

Mr. McKENZIE. You were in the hospital Sunday, Monday, and left Tuesday?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I was just Sunday night--I was one and a half days--34 hours or 36 hours or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that on Monday, October 21, Lee came to Irving after work?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And came to the hospital to see you with Mrs. Paine?

*Mrs. OSWALD. With Mrs. Paine.

Mr. LIEBELER. And stayed at Mrs. Paine's house that night and went back to work on Tuesday morning?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he did not come to the hospital at any other time or to take you home; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After Rachel was born and after Lee had been there on Monday to see you, did he come back to Irving at any time during the week except the night before the assassination?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; he came to Irving only the weekends--only on weekends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, before the time that Rachel was born, you said that he came to Irving during the week and spent 2 days before he got his job; was that just after he came back from Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. He spent 1 day in Irving after he came back from Mexico, and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for work all week long and returned to Irving on Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he come to work during the week at any time after he got his job and up until Rachel was born, except on weekends?

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember--not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume at 1:30 p.m.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF MRS. LEE HARVEY OSWALD RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 1:50 p.m.

Mr. LIEBELER. You previously told the Commission that Lee Oswald prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack on General Walker; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw this book only after the attempt on Walker's life. He burned it or disposed of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when you first saw the notebook?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw the notebook 3 days after it had happened?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to see it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. When he was destroying it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only time you ever saw it?

Mrs. OSWALD. I saw on several occasions that he was writing something in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he actually lock the door to his room when he left the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. The door to his room could be locked only from the inside and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess around and look around his things. He asked me not to go into his room and look around.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him writing in this book before the night that he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not before the night.

Mr. McKENZIE. After?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; not before--1 month before, but not every day, you know, sometimes. I saw him writing on several occasions in that book prior to the attempt on Walker's life, only I did not know what he was writing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you could have gone into this room to look at the book, you did not do so, because Lee had told you not to; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so I did not see the book or look at it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But 3 days after he shot at General Walker, you saw him destroy the book; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he destroy it?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mrs. OSWALD. In the apartment house on Neeley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. He burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you first became aware of this when you smelled it burning; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see the book, but I saw him writing in this book several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that book and he showed me several photographs. Before he burned the book, he showed me several photographs that were in the book. I asked him what the pictures were and he said, "Well, this one is the picture of the house of General Walker's--his residence."

Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that right?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; it was loose in the book--I really don't remember.

Mr. McKENZIE. Establish what kind of book it was and the size of it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. The size--it looked like this size of paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was a book something like the reporter is using?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD [nodding head for an affirmative reply].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I did not. No; I never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot General Walker. I did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. I asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. He told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of General Walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he want to leave this record for?

Mrs. OSWALD. All these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot General Walker. I am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my supposition. I was so afraid after this attempt on Walker's life that the police might come to the house. I was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Lee about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say and what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What did I say?

Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. And what did he say?

Mr. LIEBELER. Both.

Mrs. OSWALD. I told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house--this book.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you tell him that?

Mrs. OSWALD. At the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on Walker's life, and I suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first show it to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Three days after the attempt--3 days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three days after the attempt?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.

Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.

Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy he book?

Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.

Mr. LIEBELER. After he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said it was not a good idea to keep this book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then he burned the book?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. It never came to me, myself, to ask him that question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it?

Mrs. OSWALD. When I saw him burning the book--I'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. He retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. I know that they have the photographs and I don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, when you say "they," Marina, who do you mean by "they?"

Mrs. OSWALD. FBI, Secret Service, and the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 5, which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you absolutely sure about that?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't remember when Lee showed me the picture that it was this.

Mrs. OSWALD. When I was first shown this picture, I remember that there was a license plate number on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As shown in Commission Exhibit No. 5; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; but I think when the Commission showed me this picture the number was there.

Mr. McKENZIE. License plate?

Mrs. OSWALD. I would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the Commission showed me this, or the FBI. When the FBI first showed me this photograph I remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. It had the white and black numbers. There was no black spot that I see on it now. When Lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. I would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. That's what makes this black spot.

*Mrs. OSWALD. This is from the negative?

Mr. GREGORY. This picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it's simply a picture of a picture.

Mrs. OSWALD. When the FBI and Lee showed me this particular picture----

*Mrs. OSWALD. Not this big size.

Mrs. OSWALD. This photograph--it was a smaller size.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was a license plate on this car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that very clearly?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee showed it to me, I remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. When this business about General Walker came up I would have remembered this black spot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or the hole?

Mrs. OSWALD. Or the hole in the original--I would have remembered it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. This black spot is so striking I would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that Lee showed me or the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph.

Mrs. OSWALD. There was no hole in the original when they showed it to me--I'm positive of it.

Mr. McKENZIE. All right, let me ask her a question.

Mrs. OSWALD. This is the first time I saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Why does the Commission not ask me about this?

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, the Commission is asking you about it now, because Mr. Liebeler represents the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let me ask you--when Lee showed you this picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 5, had it been folded over?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. At that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. When the FBI or the Secret Service showed you this picture, had it been folded?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. Who showed you the picture--the FBI or the Secret Service or the Commission?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The FBI first and then the Commission.

Mr. McKENZIE. Now, at the time the Commission showed you the picture in Washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's license plate would be?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened to this picture, because when the Commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here.

Mrs. OSWALD. If there was a hole, I would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot.

Mr. McKENZIE. Off the record, please.

(Discussion between Mr. McKenzie and Mr. Liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.)

Mr. McKENZIE. One more question--is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think of anything else about this Walker incident that you haven't already told the Commission that you think we should know that you can remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think I have told all I know about it--I can't remember anything else now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem strange to you at the time, Marina, that Lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at General Walker he left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at General Walker?

Mrs. OSWALD. He was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. I had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. He may have wished to appear such a brave man or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the Walker affair?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. I couldn't read his mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for June, do you think that was connected with the Walker thing at all?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot General Walker. Then, I asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Militant?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The Militant.

Mrs. OSWALD. I didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "That maybe some day June will remember me." He must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the Commission that in November 1962, you stayed with Anna Meller and with Mrs. Ford for 2 weeks?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; 1 week.

Mr. LIEBELER. One week with each person?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I think maybe I was 3 days at Anna Meller's house--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think you were with them altogether?

*Mrs. OSWALD. One week or 10 days.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you also told us that you went to Anna Meller's in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you separated from Lee at any other time in the fall of 1962 except this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. The only time I was separated from Lee, not because we quarreled, but because I lived with Elena Hall in Fort Worth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you went to Anna Meller's one night in a taxicab?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to Anna Meller's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. At no time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I just take baby and bottle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the next day, did you get anything over to the Meller's house the next day?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mrs. OSWALD. No; after a couple of days Anna Meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, I wanted to take my things away from Lee and George De Mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you take the things then?

Mrs. OSWALD. To Anna Meller's house.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay at Anna Meller's house before Mohrenschildt brought the things there?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two or three days.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long did you stay at Anna Meller's after De Mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to Mrs. Ford's?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Two more days.

Mr. LIEBELER. When De Mohrenschildt came and took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? There were quite a lot of things?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take these things from Anna Meller's over to the Fords' house?

Mrs. OSWALD. Only the bare necessities.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do with the other things that you had brought to Anna Meller's?

Mrs. OSWALD. They remained at Anna Meller's.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who took the things from Meller's to Ford's?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it George De Mohrenschildt?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day it was that De Mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week?

Mrs. OSWALD. The weekend--probably Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. What day did you first go to Anna Meller's; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

*Mrs. OSWALD. About 4 days before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee know where you went the night you left him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did he first find out where you were?

Mrs. OSWALD. George De Mohrenschildt knew that I was at Anna Meller's and he telephoned Lee, but he did not tell Lee where I was. He asked him to come to his house where I would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. The day you went to take the things to Anna Meller's, De Mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. His wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you with him?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And got these other things?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And left?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Lee there when you came?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened when the three of you came to the apartment?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing happened except he was very angry and I took things.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. He did not want me to leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. OSWALD. I was collecting things, so I don't know what transpired--I was busy. Lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; maybe that's George De Mohrenschildt's joke.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's what George De Mohrenschildt told the Commission.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know.

Mrs. OSWALD. Maybe Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt. I do not know whether Lee said that to George De Mohrenschildt or not. I was busy gathering the things.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between Lee and De Mohrenschildt at that time?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking English and I didn't understand them.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would they usually talk to each other--in Russian or in English?

Mrs. OSWALD. Both Russian and English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did George Bouhe have anything to do with your leaving Lee this time?

Mrs. OSWALD. George Bouhe told me that if I wanted to leave Lee, he would help me at first, provided I would not go back to Lee. Bouhe did not interfere into my and Lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if I wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. He told me that if I wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if I would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, in fact, you did later go back to Lee; didn't you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he's my husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it is also a fact that when you did, George Bouhe was displeased--unhappy?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in fact he even asked you to give back to him the dictionary that he had given you; didn't he?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he helped you no more after that?

Mrs. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt recalls this Sunday morning differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you were still at the apartment with Lee, and that he and his wife came in and told Lee that they were going to take you away because he had been beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that you all left then that Sunday morning and he took you over to Meller's. He does not say you had previously gone to Meller's.

Mrs. OSWALD. That's not so. I was not at the apartment with Lee. I came that Sunday with the De Mohrenschildts to the apartment. I was at Anna Meller's and George De Mohrenschildt told me to be at his house at a certain hour, 10 o'clock, or sometime, and that Lee will come to his house, and Anna Meller took me. George Bouhe came to Anna Meller's and took me to George De Mohrenschildt's house and Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house in a bus. Lee came to De Mohrenschildt's house on a bus.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday?

Mrs. OSWALD. That same Sunday.

Mr. McKENZIE. Later in the day?

Mrs. OSWALD. Ten o'clock or eleven.

Mr. McKENZIE. And before you went to the apartment?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. McKENZIE. Did Lee and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and George De Mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in George De Mohrenschildt's car?

Mrs. OSWALD. I do not remember right now whether Lee left after this confrontation at De Mohrenschildt's house, whether Lee left first or whether we all left De Mohrenschildt's house together, but I do remember distinctly that I went in the car with George De Mohrenschildt and his wife. I did not go with Lee and so it is impossible that they came later.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened at De Mohrenschildt's house this morning--what was said there?

Mrs. OSWALD. De Mohrenschildt was telling Lee that that was not the way to treat his wife and Lee begged me to stay with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was De Mohrenschildt's wife there at this time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the meeting at De Mohrenschildt's house end; do you remember?

Mrs. OSWALD. I did not agree to go back with Lee and either Lee left by the bus first, or, I don't remember it clearly what happened.

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I don't know what happened--I don't remember if Lee goes with us or if he goes first.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do remember that Lee was at the apartment on Elsbeth Street when you went there to get the clothes and things for the baby?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came there, did he just help you load the things up?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be angry about anything?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; he was angry. That's why he helped me.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you come to go back to Lee, and that was when he came out to Anna Ray's and met you there?

Mrs. OSWALD. He telephoned me several times begging me to return and he came to Anna Ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--I went back to him. He said he didn't care to live if I did not return.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who paid the taxi fare when you went over to Anna Meller's the first time?

*Mrs. OSWALD. The first time--Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that some time in the spring of 1963, you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried to commit suicide. Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Do I have the right now not to discuss that?

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but I really would like to have Lee's reaction to the whole thing. But if you don't want to tell us about it--all right.

Mrs. OSWALD. At my attempt at suicide, Lee struck me in the face and told me to go to bed and that I should never attempt to do that--only foolish people would do it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you actually try?

Mrs. OSWALD. No; I didn't tell him, but I tried.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't want to discuss it any further?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a copy of Lee's diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes;--I have that now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in the Dallas Morning News?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. McKENZIE. You might also ask her if I had a copy of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Mr. McKenzie had a copy of the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know--ask him. I don't know what you have in your office--I'm sorry.

Mr. McKENZIE. Let the record show that Mr. McKenzie does not have a copy of the diary, and that Mrs. Oswald states she did not have a copy of the diary prior to its being published by the Dallas Morning News, and for the purposes of the record the Life magazine and Time, Inc., first gave me a copy of the diary, and I in turn furnished a copy of the diary to Mrs. Oswald from the copy that was given to me by Time, Inc.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this correct?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it was given to you by Mr. McKenzie after he got it from Time-Life, Inc.?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make an arrangement with Life magazine to give them permission to publish the diary?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. I, myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of publishing the diary?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; $20,000. I would like to know where the Dallas Morning News got the diary.

Mr. LIEBELER. I can tell you this much, Mrs. Oswald, that the Dallas Morning News did not get a copy of the diary from the Commission. Other than that, I can't say anything.

Mrs. OSWALD. If it is possible, I would like to determine where they got it.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you enter into this arrangement with Life magazine and how did it come about, Mrs. Oswald; will you tell us?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't remember what day----

Mr. McKENZIE. It was after it was published in the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in stating that the transaction was negotiated between representatives of Life magazine and your attorney, Mr. William A. McKenzie? An attorney here in Dallas?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions.

*Mrs. OSWALD. Thank you.

Mr. McKENZIE. I have a couple of questions. Marina, there is a difference, is there not, in your mind between a Marxist and a Communist?

*Mrs. OSWALD. What?

Mrs. OSWALD. I never was interested in this so I don't know--it makes me no difference.

Mr. McKENZIE. A Communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. A Communist does not necessarily have to be a member of the party. People that believe in communism do not necessarily have a party card. The fact is that a Communist is not necessarily a member of the party. He may be a Communist by his choice but not necessarily a member of the party.

Mr. McKENZIE. Well, Lee was a Marxist by his choice; is that correct?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know what he thought.

Mr. McKENZIE. That's all.

Mrs. OSWALD. I think he was just a sick person. He didn't know himself what he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go out to Irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this store in Irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. McKENZIE. It is agreeable.

(At this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and Messrs. Liebeler and McKenzie, Marina Oswald, the Reporter, Odell Oliver, and Secret Service Agents John Joe Howlett and Forrest Sorrels in charge of the Dallas Secret Service office traveled to Irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:)

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of 149 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., and the record will indicate that Mr. McKenzie and Mrs. Oswald, Mr. Sorrels and Mr. Howlett, the Court Reporter and I walked inside of the building here at 149 East Irving Boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at 3:45 p.m., in an effort to refresh Mrs. Oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had a chance to go through the store, Marina?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; this is the first time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the first time you have been here?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are quite sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. I'm sure I never was here before--I am quite sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from Mrs. Whitworth and Mrs. Hunter; is that right?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; that's right. She told how I was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true I had a rose jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. She may have seen you somewhere?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes; but I never was here--maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. She said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why I wanted to see this store, but maybe I have forgotten by now----

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now standing directly in front of the store at 149 East Irving Boulevard, aren't you?

*Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure you have never been here before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No; I have never been here before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. McKenzie?

Mr. McKENZIE. No.

*Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know if I were inside this store, but I don't recall it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before?

*Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. EUGENE D. ANDERSON

The testimony of Maj. Eugene D. Anderson was taken at 4:30 p.m., on July 24, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and that our witnesses today are Maj. Eugene D. Anderson and M. Sgt. James A. Zahm of the U.S. Marine Corps who have been asked to testify about their knowledge of the capabilities of a marksman using a rifle with a scope.

With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand, Major Anderson and raise your right hand please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the President's Commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Major ANDERSON. I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state you full name for the record please.

Major ANDERSON. Eugene D. Anderson.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, sir?

Major ANDERSON. I am a major in the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in the Marine Corps.

Major ANDERSON. Twenty-six years 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what do your current duties consist?

Major ANDERSON. I am assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is your current duty station?

Major ANDERSON. In Navy Annex, Headquarters Marine Corps, Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you held that position?

Major ANDERSON. I have been stationed here for 2 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your qualifications, if any, in marksmanship?

Major ANDERSON. I have been working in marksmanship training for approximately 18 years. I am a distinguished rifle shot in the Marine Corps, master rifle shot, National Rifle Association of America.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the qualifications or tests which must be achieved in order to qualify as a distinguished shot?

Major ANDERSON. A man must have acquired a minimum of 30 points from winning medals in certain specified high-caliber matches. To win these points he must have placed among the top 10 percent of the nondistinguished shooters participating in the match. By winning a gold medal he can earn 10 points. By winning a silver medal he can earn eight points. By winning a bronze medal he can win six points.

Mr. SPECTER. And what qualifications must be displayed to obtain the classification as master of the National Rifle Association of America?

Major ANDERSON. You have to fire in a minimum number of National Rifle Association sponsored matches.

(Discussion off the record.)

Major ANDERSON. I want to correct the record.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed to do so.

Major ANDERSON. I am a master with the pistol in the National Rifle Association. I am not classified with the rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. And does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle?

Major ANDERSON. To the rifle, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a document which has heretofore been introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 239.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you have heretofore had an opportunity to examine that document?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you describe for the record what that document is, please?

Major ANDERSON. This is a U.S. rifle, caliber 30, M-1 and U.S. carbine, caliber 30, M-1-A1 record scorebook that is maintained by a shooter who is training for firing for qualification or requalification in the Marine Corps.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a standard record scorebook which the Marine Corps makes available to every Marine who shoots under those circumstances?

Major ANDERSON. It was standard at the time of issuance of this particular book.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was that time?

Major ANDERSON. In December 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. And does the name of any specific Marine appear on the front page of that document?

Major ANDERSON. Yes; Oswald.

Mr. SPECTER. And are there any initials?

Major ANDERSON. It appears to be "L. H."

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training?

Major ANDERSON. He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks' training period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger.

He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over the qualification course. Normally in about the middle of the second week or the latter part of the second week he conducts some firing with a .22 rifle and .22 pistol to familiarize himself with live ammunition and to give the coaches an opportunity to check on his previous training. He then proceeds to the rifle range and he zeros the rifle in normally at 200 yards.

This consists of a few rounds being fired at a target, and the sights are changed so that at this particular range, either 200 or 300 yards, this rifle will strike the bull's-eye at the sight setting so indicated when there is no wind blowing and all the conditions for firing are ideal.

Then the following week he goes out to the range and he fires over the course completely, consisting of firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards. He will normally fire possibly 60 rounds the first day, which is 10 rounds over the required amount to fire the course. This firing is normally done at 200 yards. The following days, possibly the second or third day he may fire as much as 70 rounds each day, giving him an opportunity to acquire more practice with the gun, and to get a better opportunity to find out the zero of his weapon and where the strike of his bullet is going to be under any given circumstances.

Then on Thursday he will fire preliminary day, in which he will fire over the course one time under all circumstances exactly as he will do the following day for record day, except that on preliminary day he is allowed to have a coach on the range with him on the firing line to assist him in all phases.

The following day on record day, he fires over the course 50 rounds for his qualification score record. At this time the coach may give him any assistance possible as long as he is behind the firing line. Once he steps onto the firing line, assumes the firing position, then he is completely on his own. He cannot be helped by any gestures or comments or in any way given any assistance from anyone whatsoever. He completes this firing and the score that he attains then becomes his qualification score.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that training program in effect during 1956?

Major ANDERSON. With some possible minor deviations, yes. Generally speaking this is exactly what he would have done in 1956.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that training then necessarily have preceded the compilation of a marksmanship test as is reflected in the document which has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 239?