Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on this telephone conversation.

(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.)

Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do?

Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. Schmidt?

Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked through and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was the one that said what I was looking for.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you know?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I don't remember. I have been trying to remember where--who specifically it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. As I said before, we had several different leads on different stories and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police station, one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there, and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had to do it by a process of elimination.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally found it in the phone book?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and I called him up.

Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30 or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman answered the phone.

Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial" yesterday. I guess--that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he understands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the boresighting bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that?

Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I understood it fully and that might have been a little incorrect in the paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the boresighting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been sitting here watching Mr. Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar to you?

Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what happened on that morning?

Mr. RYDER. Well, like I have said before, and it is in my testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly 7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter asked me had I mounted the scope on the Oswald gun and I told him I had no comment and I hung up, I mean, I took the receiver off the hook and that's all I done and all I said here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice, can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone that day, or are you unable to do it?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was 6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving Sports Shop?

Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it might be done?

Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up, I think we could make arrangements to have a polygraph examination administered to both of you.

Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything.

Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just don't like to be doubted.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with Ryder?

Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my left and a couple to my right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you do so. That's entirely up to you.

Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody. That was my day off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you wanted to enjoy as your day off, but you did go over to the shop that afternoon and meet the television people, did you not?

Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper?

Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys and made the little film that they wanted.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any time the next day or the day after that about this whole story?

Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day--on Friday--Friday and Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. RYDER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story?

Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it was over the radio--originally--I don't know. The CBS boys said that they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or over the AP.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope?

Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to assassinate the President.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not?

Mr. RYDER. That we had not.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop; isn't that right?

Mr. RYDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right?

Mr. RYDER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does appear, that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought that one in the sports shop?

Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it in.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you wrote that gun ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right?

Mr. RYDER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November 22?

Mr. RYDER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket with any particular gun in your own mind?

Mr. RYDER. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil.

Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some copies--actually, he gave me some dates that I came to town and signed and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had signed with a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of my shirt.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after this investigation that the FBI conducted and the questioning that we have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of Oswald with any gun at all?

Mr. RYDER. Yeah--like I said--all I've got is that ticket with his name on it and the work being done.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, at this point I think we might as well conclude the deposition. The Commission will take under advisement Mr. Schmidt's request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and I am advised by one of the U.S. attorneys here that one of the other reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we will take his deposition tomorrow. If you want to have a polygraph examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact Miss Stroud here at the U.S. attorneys' office, if you want to.

Mr. RYDER. Okay. Is that all?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's all. Thanks a lot, Mr. Ryder.

TESTIMONY OF HUNTER SCHMIDT, JR.

The testimony of Hunter Schmidt, Jr., was taken at 4:20 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Will you please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present should you wish to have one. And you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing, should you wish to insist upon it. And you are entitled to all privileges in terms of not answering questions that you would have in any other proceeding. I assume that you are prepared to proceed at this point without an attorney, since you don't have one here?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't think that it would be necessary.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Hunter Schmidt, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. SCHMIDT. 1118 Osceola Trail, Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. SCHMIDT. September 12, 1933.

Mr. LIEBELER. Give us your educational background.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Tyler High School, Tyler Junior College; I have a B.A. from Lamar Tech, and I am working on my masters at SMU.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what? In journalism?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No; in government. Two courses and a thesis away.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are presently employed by the Dallas Times Herald, is that correct?

Mr. SCHMIDT. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you work for them in the capacity of?

Mr. SCHMIDT. County editor.

Mr. LIEBELER. County editor. What do you do as county editor?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I cover, or well you might say my beat is everything in Dallas County outside of the city of Dallas, and parts of Eastern Tarrant County. That is roughly some surrounding towns, and I take care of the general news coverage in that area.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the request of the President's Commission, the Federal Bureau of Investigation conducted certain investigations into the facts surrounding a story that appeared in the November 28, 1963, edition of the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Thanksgiving Day; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. The story related to the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald had had a telescopic sight mounted on a rifle at a sports shop in Irving, Tex.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding from reviewing the FBI report, that you were the reporter that wrote that story?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I gathered facts for the story and gave the facts to the rewrite man who wrote the actual story, but they were from the facts that I gathered. We were checking out several, running down all clues and all possible reports at that time. Anything that might be a lead to the story, we checked out. We checked out many many things of that nature, and that was just one of the tips that I checked out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you first get information that Oswald had had a scope mounted on his rifle at this Irving sport shop?

Mr. SCHMIDT. We heard of it, I think it was around the police station somewhere. I don't remember where that exact tip came from. We heard that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named Ryder, and they thought at first it was Garland.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean Garland, Tex.?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Garland, Tex.; that's right. Since that was my beat, well, they gave me the tip to check it and I checked it in Garland and found out that there wasn't any Ryder listed in the city directory and so forth, so I did it by process of elimination and checked several towns, and I found, well, I came to rest on Irving, because I found the Ryder there listed as the sports shop man, and I just took it that that was the gunsmith.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether Ryder, when you checked the city directory, that Ryder was listed as being associated with a gunshop, or did you just find the name Ryder and call him?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember exactly what I found in the city directory then. It was a process of elimination, and apparently that looked like the only one in Irving, so I checked that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did there come a time when you called Mr. Ryder on the telephone?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; this was Thanksgiving morning. In fact, that is the same morning I got the tip. After the process of elimination, I called Ryder and it was early that morning. I called out there, and a woman answered the phone, and he apparently had gotten out of bed, from the time it took. He sounded sleepy on the phone and so forth. So I talked to him then on the phone and asked him about the information I got for the story.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you talk to him on the phone about that?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, I am just guessing. I would estimate 15 minutes or roughly thereabouts.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he tell you?

Mr. SCHMIDT. He told me--I asked if he had a customer--now this is a tip we got, that this Ryder mounted a scope for a customer, and the customer's name on the ticket with the gun was Oswald. And he confirmed on the phone that morning. And the reason I took it as the truth was because I didn't think a fellow would get out of bed early and make up a story half asleep and fabricate a story that early in the morning, and get out of bed on a holiday. He told me that he had a ticket with the name Oswald on it, that it was a foreign-made rifle, that he did put the scope, bored the holes and sighted it in. I asked him if he bought any ammunition, and he said no; he didn't. I think he said he didn't remember him buying any ammunition. He then gave me the prices for the mounting of the scope, $1.50. I think he said he bored three at $1.50 a sight, and $4.50 for the boresighting--I mean for the hole drilling. And $1.50 for the sighting in of the rifle. And let's see, after he gave me the prices and everything, I just took it as pretty authoritative, because I didn't know that much about rifles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you say that Ryder told you that he believed that the rifle was a foreign make; is that right?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; I asked him what kind it was. He said he didn't remember for sure, but he said he believed it was a foreign-made rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder say anything about the fact that he was sleepy and had not slept well the night before?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No, I don't believe he mentioned that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection of that? Did Ryder tell you what boresighting was, or did you know about that?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I might have gotten that mixed up in the story. Some of the people who know more about rifles than I do said that wasn't exactly correct. The boresighting was explained in the story, but I did the best I could with the information I had there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Ryder about the significance of the term boresighting?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Not that I remember. This boresighting thing came up--there is a fellow down there that knows something about rifles, and I mentioned boresighting, and then there was a conversation with the rewrite man that took the facts I had and added to the story. The top of the story is the story I got from Ryder, and the other part of the story were some other tips that had been run down and other parts of the story we pieced together about the general investigation and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was Ryder's attitude when he talked to you on the phone that morning?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was just a man giving information, as far as I was concerned. He wasn't antagonistic or anything. It was just a matter of facts, I would say.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI about this?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Petrocas from Oklahoma; an FBI agent?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I am not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him that Ryder was cordial and invited you to get in touch with him again?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes; he did. I think he said get in touch with him again if I wanted to, I am not too sure, but it was that type conversation. He wasn't antagonistic. As a matter of fact, it was like you would get a story from anybody. Nothing apparently controversial about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report that I have also indicates that the agent says that you told him that Ryder did explain to you in detail the significance of the term "boresighting." Do you recall telling the agent that?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember for sure. That was back, I guess, in May. I don't remember any detail about the boresighting, but I remember him mentioning boresighting.

Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI report indicates that on the evening of November 28, 1963, which was the same day that you had talked to Ryder, you saw a taped television interview?

Mr. SCHMIDT. A denial. He denied the story that he had given me that morning. But the thing that, immediately after I saw that, I called one of the fellows on the paper. I think it was Charlie Dameron or Ken Smart or one of my immediate superiors, and told him I thought the story had something behind it because they didn't mention the ticket, they didn't mention about the name Oswald on it, in the denial, and they didn't mention the cost of doing this.

Mr. LIEBELER. It did not?

Mr. SCHMIDT. It did not, as best I remember, mention the cost of doing that, and didn't mention the ticket. It just said he denied the report that he put the sight on the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, according to this report that I have, and it says, "Schmidt advised that while at his address the evening of November 28, 1963, he observed a taped television interview on a 10 o'clock news of CBS television, in which Ryder denied furnishing any of the information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter as set forth in the article which had appeared in the newspaper that day."

Mr. SCHMIDT. Right. About that 10 o'clock, I was guessing that that was the 10 o'clock news. I did see a television denial of that, and I am just guessing that it was the 10 o'clock news. It was CBS, because I know I remember it was. It had to be CBS because I believe, and I am not sure about that 10 o'clock, because the best I can remember, it was Walter Cronkite reading the denial, and if it was Walter Cronkite, it couldn't have been the 10 o'clock news, because I don't think he was on then. In any event, I did see the television denial of it, and I am pretty sure it was CBS.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder actually appeared on the television taped program, at that time; did he?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I am trying to remember that. I just remember the denial clearly on television. I wouldn't swear to Ryder being on the television tape.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember for sure that Ryder denied furnishing any information to a Dallas Times Herald reporter?

Mr. SCHMIDT. In that interview he denied having done, having mounted a scope on the rifle, and he denied the story in the Times Herald, is what he was doing in essence. And he said he just didn't do it, is what he said on that, or what the story on the television said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not he specifically denied having told that story to a Dallas Times Herald reporter?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I don't remember if he specifically said that in essence. I remember the denial being credited to Ryder. As best I can recall now, the denial being credited to Ryder.

He said he denied the story in the Times Herald, that he did thus and so, that he mounted the scope. Now I am trying to remember back from what I saw on that television, because now I understand he has denied to his boss later on.

His boss had talked to our people at the Herald. He denied to his boss later on, and his boss talked to us and said that he denied to him talking to anybody from the Times Herald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Greener (Ryder's boss) about this?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mr. SCHMIDT. On the phone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mr. SCHMIDT. He called. He was very cordial. He called in and he said that--this is after he had talked to somebody else, as I understand it.

Either he called in, or I called him. We got together on the phone, and I told him that I talked to the man Thanksgiving morning and got those facts from him. And he said that the guy denied the story, and that was in essence what was said. I told him I didn't know why he denied it or anything, unless he figured that it might not go over very well with the public.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Greener know about this work that had supposedly been done on Oswald's rifle, when you called him?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I don't remember discussing that, whether he knew about the work or not. But I remember pointing out the fact that in the denial that I heard on television, that the ticket and the cost and all that wasn't mentioned. And as I have said, I didn't know that much about rifles, and I told the man I couldn't make up that much about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Greener telling you that he was completely unaware of any of the information that was set forth in the article that appeared in the paper on November 28, 1963, until after he had been contacted by a CBS television reporter that afternoon, and that was the first time that he read it? That he, Greener, had learned any of the facts about this whole thing?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe he said something to that in essence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask Greener why Ryder had denied talking to you and giving you the information?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Did I ask Greener why Ryder denied it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; as I understand, the sequence went something like this. You talked to Ryder on Thanksgiving morning, and he gave you all the information and you wrote the story that came out in the paper.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that night you saw on television a program on which Ryder in general denied ever talking to you, or denied the story that was printed in the paper?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I understand shortly after that time you called Greener?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe it was the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said to Greener, what is going on. Did you ask him why Ryder denied the story that he had previously given you? That is my question now.

Mr. SCHMIDT. I could have very well. I do remember talking to Greener and telling him that, I am sure, I got the story from Ryder that Thanksgiving morning, and I told him the reasons I thought that it was a factual story because, as I said before, about getting up early on a holiday, and the ticket with the name Oswald on it, and the cost and everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did Greener ever tell you that Ryder had told him, Greener, that he had never talked to a reporter from the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe Greener said that Ryder said that he hadn't talked to anybody, as best I can remember. I think he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to Ryder at any other time except on the morning of Thanksgiving, November 28, 1963?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I wouldn't know him if he walked in this room now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any other possible source of information for this story? Did you talk to anybody in the Dallas Police Department about it?

Mr. SCHMIDT. About the mounting; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about the FBI?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I got all those facts from Ryder.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got those facts from Ryder?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes, sir; nowhere else did I get any information. I thought that was getting it from the horse's mouth. If I thought there was anything phony about it, I would have told the city editor about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you given consideration to the reason for Ryder denying having talked to you? He denied talking to you, he denied it to the television reporter, and furthermore, he has denied it to me under oath.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, he would have to deny it under oath, but like I say, I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate the story. I didn't get any extra compensation for it. I got paid the same thing if I hadn't gotten the story, if it had been a complete hoax.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think you got the information for the story somewhere. I don't think there is any question about that. But isn't it a possibility that you might have gotten the information from some other place, a confidential source of information that you would rather not disclose? Wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to say you got the story from Ryder?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No, sir; I had no reason to fabricate anything about Mr. Ryder. I don't know the man. I have nothing against him. I just have a story, and I will stick by that story we had in the paper. But the only thing possible that I would be willing to retract any part would be some details of how you do the boresighting. But I don't know that much about rifles as to why he would deny it, except that he possibly could have thought that wouldn't go over too well with the public, "Here I mounted a sight on the gun that killed the President." Many people would think--he never told me that this was the gun that Lee Harvey Oswald used on the President. He said a customer with a ticket on it that said Oswald, and I believe I asked him what Oswald looked like, and I don't think he could put the face with the ticket, if I remember correctly.

I believe I asked him that, but I wouldn't have any reason to fabricate anything. And the man I was looking for was the man who mounted the scope. After I got that with these other bits of evidence behind it, or evidence in my mind, probably circumstantial, but to me it seemed like human nature.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was enough evidence to justify writing a newspaper article?

Mr. SCHMIDT. I think so, and we try to be factual. I think we have tried to be very factual and very honest on this thing.

At this time you see we were getting things that were hoaxes that was full of holes, and I wouldn't have any reason specifically to inflate this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are absolutely firm in your position that on the morning of Thanksgiving you did call Ryder and you did talk to him and did get from him the basic facts about the gun, ticket, and the boresighting and the drilling of the hole?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Absolutely. Like I say about the boresighting. I got the boresighting statement and details that I didn't know about. But I did get the cost. I got the ticket with the name Oswald on it, that he mentioned in the story, the statement about the ammunition. He didn't buy any ammunition that he could remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me say this to you. We are faced with a situation where Ryder has denied under oath the statement that you have just affirmed under oath. It is perfectly clear that somebody is not telling us the truth.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Obviously.

Mr. LIEBELER. What I would like to do in order to try to determine who is telling the truth about this question is have you come in here tomorrow evening at about 7:30 or so when Mr. Ryder is going to be here again to testify before the Commission. After I discuss this with Mr. Ryder, by myself, for a while, I would like to bring you into the room and I would like to have you and Mr. Ryder see if you can't iron out this apparent inconsistency in the two stories.

Mr. SCHMIDT. It is perfectly fine with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you are willing to do that?

Mr. SCHMIDT. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. At this point, we will suspend Mr. Schmidt's deposition until such time as we resume tomorrow in the presence of Mr. Ryder. And needless to say, of course, you will hold in complete confidence the request that I have made of you now until after we have our meeting with Mr. Ryder?

Mr. SCHMIDT. That will be fine with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would be very unhappy if I found it in the newspaper before Ryder gets here.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Is it free knowledge after that, though?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that is entirely up to you, I suppose. I don't know if the Commission would request you not to write a story about it. I would like to talk to Washington, and even if we request you not to write a story, that is all we can do.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, we have tried all the time to cooperate with people. If there is anything other than that you want me to do, if you have a polygraph test, I will be perfectly willing to submit to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have I mentioned a polygraph test?

Mr. SCHMIDT. No; but I would be perfectly willing to submit to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is something that we will take under advisement after we see what happens with regard to Mr. Ryder tomorrow.

Mr. SCHMIDT. Perfectly fine with me.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES W. GREENER

The testimony of Charles W. Greener was taken at 12:15 p.m., on April 1, 1964, at the Irving Sports Shop, 221 East Irving Boulevard, Irving, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to swear you as a witness and she will take this all down. Would you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GREENER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think that Mr. Sanders' office called you previously and told you that we would be out here?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it?

Would you state your name?

Mr. GREENER. Charles W. Greener.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving?

Mr. GREENER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Approximately 6 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he been employed by you here at the shop practically all that time?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have a repair tag that has the number 18374 on it and the name Oswald, indicating some repairs were to be made to a rifle. We will mark this picture as Exhibit No. 1, on your deposition. I show you a picture of this tag and ask you if that is a tag of the type that you use here in this shop?

Mr. GREENER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen that tag before?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the first time that you ever saw it?

Mr. GREENER. Approximately a week or less after the assassination was the first time I had seen it. That was on Thanksgiving Day, I guess, because they called me at home and I was eating and I met some of the news media to go through this Thanksgiving.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had there been anything in the newspaper about this tag, or about Oswald having any work done here before you saw the tag?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; it had come out in the news, and this was Walter Cronkite was to run a retraction on it, or at least clarify the thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of retraction?

Mr. GREENER. Well, they tried to clarify the thing to say that we had a tag showing a certain amount of work for an Oswald, but as far as relating to that particular gun or that particular man, we had no real knowledge of the thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the FBI been out there at the shop before this thing came out in the newspaper?

Mr. GREENER. No; I don't think so. They came out after all the news stories.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the newspaper get hold of this, do you know?

Mr. GREENER. I couldn't tell you that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear that it was in the press before the FBI ever talked to you?

Mr. GREENER. I am pretty sure it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether the FBI could have talked to Ryder or anybody else at the shop?

Mr. GREENER. That I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the owner of the shop, are you not?

Mr. GREENER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you here at the shop during the period after the assassination and prior to the time that the FBI came here for the first time?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If the FBI had come here to talk to anybody about Oswald having been here, they would probably have talked to you, isn't that right?

Mr. GREENER. It is possible. Now I do know that one newsman came in and he wasn't going to consult me in any way, so I don't know whether it would have been the case with the FBI or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did the newsman come in?

Mr. GREENER. That was on a--I believe that was on a Monday--following Monday, as I remember it.

No; wait a minute. No; it wasn't a Monday. That holiday, it's got me mixed up. It must have been on a Friday after the Thanksgiving holiday.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was after the story had already been out in the newspaper, is that right?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This reporter came in and wanted to talk to Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Right. The paper stated the owner of the Irving Sports Shop, and he apparently figured that was the correct information.

Of course, all the newspapers, they didn't check out any stories; they just run to their office and sent it in, as you well know. No one checked out anything. Anything they could get hold of, they put in print, and some of the information they got a hold, I don't know where it came from.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any reason to believe that any reporter talked to Ryder prior to the time the FBI came to your shop?

Mr. GREENER. One told me he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that reporter's name?

Mr. GREENER. No; he was with the Times Herald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. GREENER. I couldn't swear.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you he talked to Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Ryder told me he hadn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him?

Mr. GREENER. Had not talked to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the reporter tell you when he had talked to Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. He told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning. I don't know when that was. I am inclined to believe, to the best of my knowledge, it was Thanksgiving Day. Now I could be wrong on that. My recollection is that this story first came out--I am thinking it came out on Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a clipping from the New York Times of November 29, 1963, which appears to be one of the first times that this story was released in the New York papers at any rate, November 29, 1963.

Mr. GREENER. What was Thanksgiving Day?

Mr. LIEBELER. Thanksgiving Day was on a Thursday, was it not?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been November 28, so that the 29th would have been the day that it came out in the New York papers, and it very likely could have come out in the Dallas paper on Thanksgiving Day.

Mr. GREENER. I think it was Thanksgiving Day when it came out in the paper, because I hadn't heard anything of it, and I remember we were playing dominoes when the paper came, and we quit and read the paper, and then also they had come by to check on this story, and we came up to the shop and went through that for Walter Cronkite's program.

Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter had come out to check out the story?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record show that the newspaper clipping that I previously referred to is from the New York Times of November 29, 1963, and the story is entitled, "Gunsmith Attached Sight for Man Named Oswald," and it is a story written by Mr. John Herbers, and it has been marked as Exhibit No. 2, on Mr. Greener's deposition.

Now do you have a feeling or do you have the thought based on what this reporter from the Dallas News told you that the reporter had talked to Ryder prior to the time that the FBI ever came here to the shop?

Mr. GREENER. You are going to have to go through that again. I am not sure that I was following you all the way. I was thinking a little bit while you were talking.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am trying to find out at what time this story first broke, whether the FBI had been here at the shop to ask any questions before the story came out in the newspapers?

Mr. GREENER. As I recall, no. None of the law enforcing agencies had been by previous to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression is that he came here because they saw the story in the paper?

Mr. GREENER. That is my idea. Either that, or they were informed by the news reporters.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did this reporter from the Dallas paper, whose name you don't remember, tell you that Ryder had called him?

Mr. GREENER. No; he told me that he called him, called Ryder.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how he got the idea to call Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't ask him?

Mr. GREENER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss this question with Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; I did. And he said he had not talked to a newspaper reporter about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. At all?

Mr. GREENER. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you never had any opportunity or occasion to ask Ryder whether a reporter or, or whether Ryder contacted a reporter, because he simply denied talking to a reporter?

Mr. GREENER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when you asked Ryder about this?

Mr. GREENER. Must have been on Friday, because I was a little bit aggravated at the whole setup. They got me out of bed a time or two at night, and I believe that I had called the Times Herald to talk to this reporter to see where he was supposed to have been getting his information. I'm sure that after I talked to them that day was when I questioned Ryder. So I feel pretty sure it was Friday or Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 29th or 30th of November?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Ryder ever indicate to you that he had talked to a newspaper reporter about this?

Mr. GREENER. No; he did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection at all of the name of this reporter from the Dallas newspaper?

Mr. GREENER. No; I don't have the slightest idea about talking with reporters until this bunch that was going to run the program on Walter Cronkite's program had contacted me, and he called me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?

Mr. GREENER. No; I don't remember any of the boys with the television program at all. They had called me and wanted to come down and take some pictures, and he called me, Ryder did.

Mr. LIEBELER. The television men had called Ryder?

Mr. GREENER. That was after the newspaper article had appeared in the newspapers.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Ryder called you and talked to you about it, whether these men could come down?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; and I came down and met with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what Ryder told them?

Mr. GREENER. To the best of my knowledge, he told them that we had the ticket, but he didn't remember the name, didn't remember the gun, or the person, because actually here is the thing about this tag here. We have tried to keep a little better record. We get busy, you know, and get a little lax, just like you and everybody else does, and if we got two or three waiting, why, at that time we were not going to dally about what the name is or date or address or telephone number or anything. We felt like we didn't have time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was just before the deer season?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; I guess the deer season opened November 16 in Texas, and our workload was pretty heavy, and we were working short handed, too, which would be one reason for no more information on the tag or several other tags.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you fix the date?

Mr. GREENER. No; no way in the world. In the first place, I wasn't here. I feel sure I wasn't here at the time this went on. I was gone from--I don't remember what day I left. I started hunting in South Dakota on November 2, and we came back somewhere between the 12th and 14th.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you feel that you weren't here at the time this tag was made up?

Mr. GREENER. Well, in checking around, I feel like possibly that I would have noticed it on the gunrack. I would--I don't know whether I would or not, because I do some of the repair work myself, and a lot of times I go through the guns on the rack to be repaired, and if it is something I can do, I take care of it. If he is busy, then I take care of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ryder, you mean?

Mr. GREENER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of this tag?

Mr. GREENER. None whatsoever, until, I believe, it was the day on Thanksgiving when they came down here. Now, I believe--this has been a long time and we are going into phases of this I hadn't thought of in a long time--it seems to me that the FBI got ahold of him and they come down scouring through the place. That was very possible after the newspaper report broke. It could have been before, but it seems to me that that is when the tag appeared. I believe it was an FBI man who was out here checking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, if that is true, then the tag would have had to have been found and the FBI man would have had to have been here before the story broke in the newspaper?

Mr. GREENER. No; I said it could possibly be after the newspaper story appeared, but I believe when the tag was found lying on the desk somewhere, that the FBI man was here when it was found.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the best recollection that you have?

Mr. GREENER. Yes; right now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who found the tag; do you remember?

Mr. GREENER. No; I don't know. If I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, because like I said, you are going into things that hadn't entered my mind since November 22, along in there, and it seems to me that he had contacted Ryder and they had come down here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI?

Mr. GREENER. Yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your impression now is that the FBI man was here when the tag was found?

Mr. GREENER. That is my impression; yes.