Chapter II: Part 2

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall it to have been sometime in late 1942 or thereabout?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to when he was--he joined you at the orphan asylum.

Mr. PIC. I remember we were there a while, sir. He came, and to the best of my recollection he didn't stay but 6 months at the longest, and left again. I don't think--he wasn't there as long as we were.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention, Sergeant, to the fact your mother has listed on this application her address as 111 Sherwood Forest Drive.

Mr. PIC. That address is familiar to me. Sherwood Forest Drive part of it, the numbers are not.

Mr. JENNER. I wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the street you do recall?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I do. In fact, the Murrets lived on the same street.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your impression then that the address of 111 Sherwood Forest Drive was probably the address of the Murrets?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I wouldn't say that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall your mother moving out of 1010 Bartholomew?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And so that it is your recollection that sometime between your entry into the Bethlehem Orphanage at which time the family lived at 1010 Bartholomew, that your mother and Lee or at least your mother left, it must have been your mother and Lee, left the 1010 Bartholomew residence and moved to another home on Sherwood Drive?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that. You put it in sequence as best you can.

Mr. PIC. If there was anything between Bartholomew and Sherwood Forest Drive, I don't remember, sir. I do remember the Sherwood Forest Drive house, and if I remember right it was three or four doors down from the Murrets.

Mr. JENNER. Where would that be in your recollection with respect to Bartholomew?

Mr. PIC. Oh, that is way across town, sir. That is in the city park area. In fact, it was only a block from city park.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee was then--your mother had him with her because at this time, December 1942, he was just a little over 3 years old.

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The records show that the 1010 Bartholomew home was sold on the 16th of January 1942. Does that refresh your recollection as to sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house and over to Sherwood Drive and the placing of you boys in the Bethlehem orphanage school was all part of the picture? She sold the Bartholomew house, entered you boys in the orphanage in January 1942.

Mr. PIC. You want to know if I think she sold the house before we were placed in the home?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But after you were in the home, that is the Bethlehem Orphanage Home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And she moved into another house on Sherwood Drive?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by the name of John Oswald?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or----

Mr. PIC. I remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. I don't recall his name, sir.

Mr. JENNER. W. S. Oswald, is that familiar to you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is you don't recall his name, his first name?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. His name was Oswald, though?

Mr. PIC. I know it was on his side, sir. It may have been his sister, I don't know. Maybe his brother-in-law.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't know.

I will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 3 another application blank, this one dated January 3, 1942, for admission of Robert Edward Oswald, Jr., to the Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum, which is dated January 3, 1942, and direct you, Sergeant to the signature appearing on that exhibit reading "Mrs. Lee Oswald." Are you familiar with that signature?

Mr. PIC. That is the first time I have ever seen her use the word "Lee."

Mr. JENNER. But the handwriting; that is her handwriting?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence a document now identified as John Pic Exhibit No. 3.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows the entry of your brother Robert in the orphanage asylum on January 3, 1942, is it a fact that you and your brother Robert entered the asylum at the same time?

Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I direct your attention to this. There appears in the line designated "mother" written in longhand Marguerite Claverie Oswald, address, 1010 Bartholomew, and then right above it there is written 831 Pauline Street--January 28.

Do you recall your mother moving with Lee to a place on Pauline Street in January of 1942?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All you recall is that she and Lee did move to a place, another place from the 1010 Bartholomew address?

Mr. PIC. Well, it shows it there. I thought it was Sherwood Forest, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. It might have been shortly after that?

Mr. PIC. This is not familiar at all, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is the 831 Pauline Street address is not at all familiar?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is any of this application blank, that is any of the longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your religion is Lutheran, is it not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you were baptized in the Lutheran church, were you not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that your brother Lee was taken from the orphanage home before you and Robert were?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were released in June of 1944?

Mr. PIC. I have--I may have. If you say it was June, sir, OK. It was May or June.

Mr. JENNER. May or June of 1944. And does it refresh your recollection that your brother Lee was released from that home the previous January, as a matter of fact on----

Mr. PIC. He didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all I know is he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. It was between those periods the best I can state.

Mr. JENNER. The record (Pic Exhibit) shows he was released from the home on the 19th of January, 1944 (Pic Exhibit No. 2A), and that he entered the home on the 26th of December, 1942 (Pic Exhibit No. 2).

So he was there 2 years.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; that is not right.

Mr. JENNER. That doesn't square with your recollection, you mean?

Mr. PIC. No, sir. He may have been in and out of there off and on but he didn't spend full time there that long. You see she may have pulled him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the Murrets, and things or even longer and still have him charged against Bethlehem.

Mr. JENNER. I misspoke when I said 2 years. It would be the period from December 26, 1942, to January 29, 1944, which is 1 year and 1 month.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; that would only be a year and 1 month.

Mr. JENNER. For the record then that span of time for your brother between January 29, 1944, when he was released, and December 26, 1942, when he entered is approximately 13 months.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is about what you remember, isn't it?

Mr. PIC. Well, I remember it about 6 months. But I guess that is right. I know he wasn't in there a full 13 months at a clip. He was in and out of there in 13 months. At that school if your parents wanted to take you home for a couple or 3 weeks they took you home for a couple or 3 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. And you do remember your mother did that?

Mr. PIC. Sure, I am sure he stayed at the Murrets also.

Mr. JENNER. Well, the Murrets recall that. Now, I show you an exhibit which we will identify as John Pic Exhibit No. 4 which for purposes of identification is a Xerox duplication of a letter from Mrs. Marguerite Oswald to the Reverend Harold of the Evangelical Lutheran Orphanage Asylum dated February 1, 1945, addressed 4801 Victor, Dallas, Tex.

It is in longhand. Would you please examine it for the purpose of answering a question I will put to you as to whether it is in the handwriting of your mother?

Mr. PIC. It appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibit No. 4.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. I have marked as John Pic Exhibit No. 5 another application for admission to Evangelical Lutheran Bethlehem Orphan Asylum Association dated December 23, 1942, for the admission of John Edward Pic and Robert Oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the application is confined to John Edward Pic.

Unfortunately, Mr. Pic, this application, for some reason by oversight was not signed by your mother. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Rev. J. H. Nau?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the Redeemer Lutheran Church?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Reporter, for purposes of the record, there appears on this application the fact that the marriage of Sergeant Pic's mother Marguerite and his father Edward John Pic, Jr. was at Gulfport, La.

Mr. PIC. Mississippi.

Mr. JENNER. No, it says Gulfport, La. here and should have been Gulfport, Miss.?

Mr. PIC. Yes; Mississippi.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a pastor by the name of Reverend Scherer?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The Trinity Evangelical Church.

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a Rev. M. R. Lecron?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Of the Redeemer Church?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, all you boys were christened in the Lutheran church, faith, were you not?

Mr. PIC. I don't know or remember if Lee was. I don't know about Lee.

Mr. JENNER. The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he was baptized by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. The exact date, however, is not given.

Mr. PIC. They even have his birthday wrong there.

Mr. JENNER. 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th.

Mr. PIC. So does one of the letters.

Mr. JENNER. I offer John Pic Exhibit No. 5 in evidence.

(John Pic Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. We will adjourn now and reconvene at 3 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)

TESTIMONY OF JOHN EDWARD PIC RESUMED

The proceeding was reconvened at 3:25 p.m.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Sergeant.

Do you recall along about this time that you were in the Bethlehem Orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of E. A. Ekdahl and subsequently married?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was about this time, around 1944, that you boys were withdrawn from the Bethlehem Orphanage and taken to Texas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I will go back a little bit because I want you to put it in sequence. Before we adjourned for noon recess, I covered the matter of the period of the birth of Lee, the death of your stepfather Lee Oswald, and then brought you up to the Bethlehem School and stopped there.

To the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather Lee Oswald was alive.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were, when you entered grammar school that was kindergarten you were only four and half years old.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall moving from place to place before you finally settled in----

Mr. PIC. I just remember one residence prior to Alvez and Galvez.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. Where that would have been, I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. OK. But you sort of settled down in 2109 Alvar?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That your stepfather had purchased that home in 1938?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And then you went along, he died about a year and a half later after he purchased it.

Take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was alive if there is any change now.

I don't want to put any words in your mouth.

Mr. PIC. Well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two boarding schools prior to Bethlehem, this Infant Jesus, and the other one I don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school.

Mr. JENNER. Sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning and brought you back. That is two of the boys, not Lee?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was almost a suckling child?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember. I don't see how he could have been there.

Now this day school was prior to Infant Jesus, it had to be. We went to Infant Jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we attended Washington and then into Bethlehem.

Like I said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had financial difficulty.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir; when you just talked about Washington and Bethlehem you put Washington before Bethlehem, and this morning you put Washington into Bethlehem.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; we went to Washington before Bethlehem.

Mr. JENNER. I think you will find that the record of this morning, I am pretty sure, will show a different sequence. That is your impression, that you went into Bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; Infant Jesus.

Mr. JENNER. Infant Jesus. I see. Go ahead. You are right.

Mr. PIC. We were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were financial difficulties, and I was rather young, I don't remember too much about this, but it was always something to do about money problems. We kind of liked Infant Jesus, it wasn't bad at all. We had a pretty good childhood while we lived on Bartholomew Street, there were no major problems there. And even at Bethlehem we both, Robert and I enjoyed Bethlehem. I mean we were all there with the kids with the same problems, same age groups, and everything. Things for myself became worse when Lee came there, that is why I know he wasn't there too long.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about it?

Mr. PIC. At Bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very much, and I wasn't but 10 or 9 or 11.

Mr. JENNER. He was only 3 years old?

Mr. PIC. Yes; but I was 10. And they did quite a few things like this. If there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of the younger child. The people there didn't all the time.

Mr. JENNER. Was this 7-year spread as the years went on between you and Lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from your relationship with your brother Robert who was only 2 years younger?

Mr. PIC. Well, anything I was involved in Robert always was. Lee was left out because of the age difference. Robert and I went to all these homes together and all the schools together. Lee didn't, of course.

Mr. JENNER. During the course of the years your companions and friends, I assume were different, that is you and Robert on the one hand?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee on the other?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. His life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this period at Bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Living with her?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did she express problems on her part with him?

Mr. PIC. Well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child and things like this, both. It would seem that the problem with Robert and I was easier to solve than the problem with Lee.

Mr. JENNER. I interrupted you. Go ahead with your account.

Mr. PIC. Well, up until we left Bethlehem, I can only recall three places of employment for Mrs. Oswald, one being Oswald's notion store which was 1941-42, thereabouts.

Mr. JENNER. While you had the Bethlehem house?

Mr. PIC. No; that was before Bethlehem.

Mr. JENNER. I don't mean Bethlehem, Bartholomew Street?

Mr. PIC. Yes; after we were placed in Bethlehem she was a manager of Princess Hosiery on Canal Street and Pittsburgh Plate and Glass Co., I don't remember which one came first.

Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans referred to Pittsburgh Plate and Lillian Murret referred to Pittsburgh Plate. You do recall that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, I think at the time she worked at Pittsburgh Plate she was going with Mr. Ekdahl. In fact, I think I remember him driving us over there or something once.

Mr. JENNER. When you were at Bethlehem, did your Aunt Lillian ever have occasion to visit?

Mr. PIC. She never visited us that I recall. We visited her many times.

Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Myrtle Evans visiting on any occasion?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember. Wait a minute. Myrtle Evans, is she kind of heavy?

Mr. JENNER. She is now.

Mr. PIC. She was then too, that is the same one.

Mr. JENNER. Energetic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I remember a Myrtle.

Mr. JENNER. She had taken some accounting and----

Mr. PIC. The name is familiar, sir. I can't place the lady.

Mr. JENNER. She had been a girl friend of your mother's?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at Bethlehem, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the Evanses coming over to see you when you were at Covington, one time?

Mr. PIC. I don't recollect, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recollect Myrtle Evans coming and visiting when you first went to Texas?

Mr. PIC. Sir; I don't remember Myrtle Evans that much. The name Myrtle is familiar to me. Just like this woman that worked at Holmes for 30 years is familiar to me. Where I had seen her and different places?

Mr. JENNER. H-o-l-m-e-s?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is a department store in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Of course you would recall the Murret family.

Mr. PIC. Yes; I recall them very good.

Mr. JENNER. There were a couple of those children about your age and Robert's, is that right?

Mr. PIC. I can only--let's see, Charles, there is Marilyn and Charles.

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is the youngest?

Mr. PIC. Marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; Boogie is the youngest.

Mr. JENNER. B-o-o-g-i-e?

Mr. PIC. What is he doing now. I heard he was playing semipro ball.

Mr. JENNER. No. He is not doing that any more. Is Boogie John?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I think----

Mr. JENNER. One is a dentist, one is with Squibb, Gene is a seminarian.

Mr. PIC. Gene is the priest. Gene is the one who is my age or thereabouts. Boogie was closer to Robert's age.

Mr. JENNER. She had five children?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn.

Mr. PIC. Joyce.

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn, Joyce, John, Gene----

Mr. PIC. Charles.

Mr. JENNER. And Charles. They are all alive?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. That was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much.

Mr. JENNER. How did Lee get along with them?

Mr. PIC. Well, I don't know how he got along with them. I know he was placed there several times to stay for a while. I don't know if the people resented this or was glad to have him or not.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they were glad to have him. They appeared to me to be generous people.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. We always could count on our uncle for a dollar or two.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I take it from the questions I asked you this morning that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with the Oswald family?

Mr. PIC. There was no contact that I remember at all, sir, after his death. Prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what I remember. I remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would visit. He had this other Oswald who was either a brother or sister or something, we visited these people. I remember the older woman we visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just Robert and I, a whole bunch of toys for Christmas every Christmas. But after his death, there was no contact at all, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to why that took place?

Mr. PIC. I will speculate and say that----

Mr. JENNER. Give me the impression you have rather than speculate.

Mr. PIC. They couldn't get along with Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. With your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went to work in 1942, and she had a couple, a Mr. and Mrs. Roach taking care of Lee who was then----

Mr. PIC. What was Roach's first name, sir?

Mr. JENNER. Thomas.

Mr. PIC. What street did he live on?

Mr. JENNER. 831 Pauline.

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I don't. The only one I could think of that may have taken care of Lee was this milkman Bud and his wife.

Mr. JENNER. To help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your mother lived with Lee at 831 Pauline Street in 1942, and a couple present there by the name of Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Roach, Thomas and Dora Roach. They had been living on de Lessups Street in New Orleans, in the 800 block.

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And moved into 831 Pauline, or your mother moved into 831 Pauline Street with them. There was a whole question as to who was the renter, whether it was the Roaches or your mother?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; this I don't recall at all.

Mr. JENNER. And it wasn't long after they were there that some difficulty arose with respect to Lee and that ended that. It was about 6 weeks or a month, 2 months. But you have no recollection of that?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. The question I asked you and which I keep interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course of recounting that.

Mr. PIC. Well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and lower in the class structure.

Mr. JENNER. As your financial status----

Mr. PIC. And our class structure, both.

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that? Your financial status went down?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And then you say lower in the class structure?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that?

Mr. PIC. I would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on Alvez.

Mr. JENNER. While your father was alive?

Mr. PIC. And, being we moved to Bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, I think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, two class structures dropped, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. Were you conscious of that even as a 10-year-old?

Mr. PIC. Well, I realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. Well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with our own kind, so to speak. I had no feelings whatsoever. I mean, we enjoyed that place. They were rather strict but we enjoyed it. We had quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. We would sneak out of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. But Robert and I enjoyed it.

Mr. JENNER. I am thinking more of your relations with your mother. Was her personality affected by the death of your stepfather?

Mr. PIC. Probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as the oldest and things like this. When we were in Bethlehem we didn't see that much of her.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. Maybe once every 2 weeks, that would be the most often. Maybe once in a while she would drop around.

Mr. JENNER. While you were at Bethlehem did you visit the Murrets?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; several times, lots of times. You see the home once or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in New Orleans. We would get on the rides and naturally the Murrets were right there, and so we would rent bikes for free. It was on the home and I would ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did Robert. Whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there.

Mr. JENNER. While at least through the Bethlehem Orphanage period your present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a reasonably happy life?

Mr. PIC. We enjoyed it.

Mr. JENNER. Like all children you accommodated yourself to the circumstances?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think probably a good new start off point is Mr. Ekdahl. Tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance was at that time, what your mother's was?

Mr. PIC. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. Give times as best you can.

Mr. PIC. If you can date for me when I had my appendix out I can practically date for you Mr. Ekdahl's----

Mr. JENNER. I am afraid I can't. Were you at Bethlehem Orphanage?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I was at Bethlehem so it would be either 1943 or 1944, and I am sure she was at Pittsburgh at that time.

Mr. JENNER. Pittsburgh Plate?

Mr. PIC. Right. And it was right after I had my appendix out that he appeared on the scene. And she visited us more often when she was going with him.

Mr. JENNER. And she brought him with her, did she?

Mr. PIC. Yes; he had the car.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, did your mother have an automobile during this period following your stepfather's death?

Mr. PIC. I don't think so, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But Mr. Ekdahl did have an automobile?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he had a 1938 Buick.

Mr. JENNER. And your mother visited you more often?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. And they on weekends took us to Covington. I remember once, it may have been more.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I wanted to ask you about that. While your stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit Covington?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. JENNER. Covington, as I understand it, Covington, La., is sort of a summer resort area, is it not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it is on the--it is north of New Orleans on the northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain, and the Murrets used to go to Mandeville, which is about 30 miles closer to New Orleans than Covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the summer.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the names of any of those people that you--whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during the summer period?

Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at these tourist places. We were never at anybody's home. The Murrets were, I believe, at somebody's home in Mandeville. They had a large house there.

Mr. JENNER. Does Mrs. Benny C-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At 600 West 24th Street, Covington, familiar to you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Does the address 311 Vermont stimulate your recollection over in Covington?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. That may have been the street we lived on when we went there in 1946, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I ask you to relate the circumstances respecting Mr. Ekdahl.

Mr. PIC. Well, in June 1944, we were removed from Bethlehem, and----

Mr. JENNER. Did you know about that in advance? Were you aware you were going to be removed and why?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember how much in advance we knew this. We knew maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time.

Mr. JENNER. Or maybe the more important thing is why were you being removed from Bethlehem? What were the circumstances of bringing that about?

Mr. PIC. Well, she was marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and if you had two parents they wouldn't allow you to stay at Bethlehem.

Mr. JENNER. She was not yet married to him?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Didn't marry him until the 5th of March 1945?

Mr. PIC. That is about right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So you were removed in June or May 1944, and the record shows in June. Describe Mr. Ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have a recollection?

Mr. PIC. He was----

Mr. JENNER. Who was he? Who did you understand he was?

Mr. PIC. He was an electrical engineer. His home was in Boston, Mass., somewhere around there. He was described to us as a Yankee, of course. Rather tall, I think he was over 6 feet. He had white hair, wore glasses, very nice man.

Mr. JENNER. Very nice man. I take it he was older than your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit.

Mr. JENNER. A man of at least, apparently of considerably better means than your mother?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Than you boys had been accustomed to?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his health, what did you understand as to that?

Mr. PIC. I have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at that time, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see. When you were taken from Bethlehem Orphanage in June of 1944, where did you go?

Mr. PIC. Dallas, Tex., sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall where you lived in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. I remember what the house looks like, sir. I don't remember the address. You can probably refresh me on that.

Mr. JENNER. I will do so and I want to make it accurate. 4801 Victor was the address.

Mr. PIC. That sounds familiar.

Mr. JENNER. In Dallas. Would you please describe that 4801 Victor Street home?

Mr. PIC. It was white, two story.

Mr. JENNER. Frame, brick?

Mr. PIC. Frame. I think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. I am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. We lived on the lower right, in boxcar-type rooms.

Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that?

Mr. PIC. Well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. One lined the other, you mean?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I see. With a long hallway to connect it; is that it?

Mr. PIC. The hall ran into each room as you walked by it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you lived there with your mother, with Lee, and with Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the outset?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection where he lived? First, was he in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. I think he was in Fort Worth, sir. And he used to come over to Dallas to see us. Is that right?

Mr. JENNER. I think that is right. I can't answer.

Mr. PIC. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. That was one of the reasons why I asked my first question.

Mr. PIC. I think that is the way the setup was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think that is so but I don't know. He would come over from Fort Worth and visit you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You boys, when you reached Dallas in 1944, you entered school, grammar school at that time, did you?

Mr. PIC. Robert--just a moment, sir; I remember I attended a summer school session of the 6th grade. Robert may have. I don't really remember. I think he did.

Mr. JENNER. We are in the summer of 1944?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to summer school. I did, I know. I think he may have.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that it was the Davy Crockett----

Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was not the Davy Crockett. It was another school. Davy Crockett is where we entered in September. We meanwhile went to summer school.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. If you can give me a map of Dallas?

Mr. JENNER. You never heard of it?

Mr. PIC. Give me a map of Texas and I can show you where approximately the school was and I will show you where it was.

Mr. JENNER. You did, after that summer school period in the summer of 1944, enter grammar school in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. That is right. Davy Crockett Elementary School. I entered the 7th grade and Robert entered the 5th.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see, Lee is now almost 5 years old. Did he enter Davy Crockett at that time?

Mr. PIC. To the best of my recollection, no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. All right, you and Robert then entered Davy Crockett?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You continued on at Davy Crockett in the fall semester?

Mr. PIC. Just a moment.

Mr. JENNER. Yes?

Mr. PIC. This house we went to in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. My mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one side of it.

Mr. JENNER. It was a duplex?

Mr. PIC. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Myrtle Evans testified that she recalled visiting you, the family, on a trip she made to Dallas on one occasion, on a buying trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, two-place houses. To me they are duplexes.

Mr. PIC. Right; duplex.

Mr. JENNER. So her recollection is fairly good then. Does that affect your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it was a two-apartment building?

Mr. PIC. I am pretty sure it was four apartments.

Mr. JENNER. Okay; go ahead.

Mr. PIC. Well, I was under the impression and always have been that she owned the house, and there was some arrangement with Mr. Ekdahl as to how she got it or something. She was renting to one couple upstairs, I know; is this right?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIC. We are in Davy Crockett Elementary School, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Carry on.

Mr. PIC. Well, that would be September 1944. In the summer of 1945 she married Mr. Ekdahl. I think you dated that as March or April.

Mr. JENNER. She married him, in fact, on May 7, 1945. I said March before; I misspoke. It was May 7, 1945.

Mr. PIC. I have got summer. It is pretty good.

Mr. JENNER. Did he then move into the 4801 Victor Place?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came back and moved in.

Mr. JENNER. In the summer of 1945 did you and Robert continue on at--through that summer in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That following September, however, you transferred to some other school; did you not?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school session ended in 1945. I knew before we left Davy Crockett we were going.

Mr. JENNER. What was the name of that?

Mr. PIC. In September 1945, sir, Robert and I entered Chamberlain-Hunt Academy, military school for boys, Port Gibson, Miss.

Mr. JENNER. And you were aware of that--that that was forthcoming?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; as early as May 1945 I think.

Mr. JENNER. And what were the circumstances?

Mr. PIC. Mr. Ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding school.

Mr. JENNER. I exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of your mother's dated February 1, 1945, to the Bethlehem Orphanage, John Pic Exhibit No. 4 in which your mother is petitioning the Bethlehem Orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage.

Mr. PIC. I don't think I was aware of this letter.

Mr. JENNER. You were not aware?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. So circumstances that you can recall now of the possible relationship between your mother and Ekdahl that might have led to her seeking to do this?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She says in her letter she is thinking in terms of returning you to Bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with her husband when she does marry him--that is Mr. Ekdahl. There was no discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject?

Mr. PIC. Not returning to Bethlehem, no, sir; not that I remember. I have to find Victor Street and from there I can just about guess where the school was. I am lost on this map. I can't find Victor Street and where I lived.

Mr. JENNER. Was Davy Crockett Grammar School near your home at 4801 Victor Street?

Mr. PIC. About three blocks, sir. Three long blocks.

Mr. JENNER. Describe that neighborhood to us.

Mr. PIC. I think it would be middle class.

Mr. JENNER. A level up from what you had been accustomed back in New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. There were fine brick homes; in fact, I had a paper route out there that I delivered, and easily middle class. Maybe some upper middle class.

Mr. JENNER. Was your life there pleasant?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when Mr. Ekdahl moved in were the relationships generally among all, now five of you, pleasant?

Mr. PIC. Between Mr. Ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. I think there were some arguments between Mr. Ekdahl and my mother from time to time.

Mr. JENNER. You were aware of those?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I am going to need a map with a listing of the schools. This one doesn't seem to have one. This summer school was about a good 2 miles away. We walked it in the morning.

Mr. JENNER. You and Robert?

Mr. PIC. I think me and Robert. We had other friends that we went to school with.

Mr. JENNER. Of course.

Mr. PIC. And there were always a group of us. I don't remember if Robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth.

Mr. JENNER. I see. When you came around to the fall of 1945, however, you entered the Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; in fact, the trip to Chamberlain-Hunt was a side trip because Mr. Ekdahl, my mother, and Lee were on their way to Boston to visit his folks. And so they dropped us off at the school and then proceeded to Boston.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a motor trip?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; it was in a 1938 Buick.

Mr. JENNER. You remained at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy except for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long?

Mr. PIC. Well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. I have got a whole bunch of goodies while I was at Chamberlain-Hunt.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. During Christmas vacation of 1945 Robert and I received money to go home for the Christmas holidays. We were to take the train from Vicksburg, Miss., to Shreveport, La. These were instructions and when we arrived at Shreveport, we were to wait for Mr. Ekdahl to pick us up. We arrived and he wasn't there. So I think we waited around, I have an estimate of between 1 and 2 hours, and then he showed up. He then drove us to Fort Worth, Benbrook, Tex., and we had a house about 15 miles below Fort Worth in Benbrook, it was way out. It wasn't the same Benbrook house, it was further. This was a brick house.

Mr. JENNER. The first house in Benbrook?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known the family had moved to Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; because we was writing.

Mr. JENNER. Because of correspondence?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This was your first view of that house?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what it was; describe it to us?

Mr. PIC. It was rather isolated on one of the main highways. In fact, I just drove that way recently and I couldn't find the place. When I went up to Fort Worth in 1962 I was looking for the house, I couldn't find it.

Mr. JENNER. Was it Granbury Road, Box 567, Benbrook, Tex.?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that sounds familiar. This was a brick house, with quite a bit of ground. I think way back they told us that one of the Roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how I remember. We arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why we were so late. One reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy fog, and I informed her we had to wait a while for Mr. Ekdahl, and she kind of hinted to me, I think I was 15 at the time, did I see another woman or was there anything shady about it or something. That is all I have to say about that. She was under the impression years later, she told me that he had met some woman in Shreveport and they were having some fun.

Mr. JENNER. You were in Benbrook, Tex., then for the Christmas holiday?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You and Robert?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was living with Mr. Ekdahl and your mother at the Benbrook, Tex., home out on the outskirts of Fort Worth; I guess this is----

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you returned after the Christmas holiday to----

Mr. PIC. It would be January 1946 we returned to, back to Chamberlain-Hunt.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return home at all from then on until the summer of 1946?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you during the summer of 1946?

Mr. PIC. In the summer of 1946, Robert and I were informed that we would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. Well, school let out in May and I think summer session starts in June, so there was a waiting period of about 2 to 3 weeks, so we just stayed there. This suited us fine. We really liked the school.

Sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us that her and Mr. Ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with Lee, of course, and she was going to take us to Covington where we would stay the summer. We had--the commandant of the school was an attorney, and I think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding or something. She talked to him about it, I know. His name was Farrell, Herbert D. Farrell. He was commandant of the school. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. JENNER. Not that I know of.

Mr. PIC. A real nice man, too. She had the car.

Mr. JENNER. The 1938 Buick?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. She had it.

Mr. JENNER. Had she taken a home or a house in Covington?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. When we arrived there she looked for a house, and there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown area that we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this area. That address I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Does the address, the street Vermont Street refresh your recollection, 311 Vermont?

Mr. PIC. The only thing I remember about the house is a lady next door was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out every morning chasing them with a broom.

Mr. JENNER. The squirrels?

Mr. PIC. The squirrels. This was a one-story brick house, and we lived on the right side.

Mr. JENNER. You stayed there throughout the summer?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return to Chamberlain-Hunt that fall?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we returned to Chamberlain-Hunt in September 1946. Then for the Christmas holidays, 1946, 1947, we returned to Covington where she and Lee still were, and spent those holidays there. During those holidays we made one trip to New Orleans with this other boy who lived in Covington also that we went to school with, and they were driving to New Orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to New Orleans and visited the Murrets a day or so. I think it was 1 day.

Mr. JENNER. Did your mother accompany you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee entered grammar school at this time?

Mr. PIC. I wouldn't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Our records show that he entered----

Mr. PIC. He probably did.

Mr. JENNER. He entered in September 19, 1946, and continued to January 23, 1947, old Covington Grammar School.

Mr. PIC. Probably.

Mr. JENNER. Is that your impression at the time that he was in school, he is now 7 years old?

Mr. PIC. I think he had to be in school or they came and got him. My next note says that sometime between January 1947 until May 1947 Mr. Ekdahl and my mother were reunited. Robert and I----

Mr. JENNER. Had she returned to----

Mr. PIC. To Fort Worth. She didn't return to Fort Worth. They moved to Fort Worth. We had never been to Fort Worth before that except in Benbrook.

Mr. JENNER. I see. This was from Benbrook, Tex., to Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Right. This address I don't remember, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Does the address 1505 Eighth Avenue, Fort Worth, refresh your recollection?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; that is it.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. OK. During that summer her and Mr. Ekdahl had their ins and outs.

Mr. JENNER. You were home?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. Now let's go back further than that. When we first got there I got a job for the summer at Walgreen's, and I worked there for a couple of weeks before they fired me.

Mr. JENNER. You are now 15 years old?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And while I was working there I met this other boy, his name was Sammy, his last name I don't remember, he was from California. He was working in Walgreen's in Fort Worth, also. So, after I lost my job at Walgreen's I got this other job, assistant manager of Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor which was on Eighth Avenue, about 6 blocks from the house.

Mr. JENNER. Describe that house, please.

Mr. PIC. It was the second house from the corner. On the corner lived the McLeans who was an attorney and I think he was her attorney or his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. They had a couple of boys we became friendly with. The house itself was a brick, I remember brick with a garage in the back. I think there was an upstairs or side.

Mr. JENNER. Describe the neighborhood, please.

Mr. PIC. I would say it would be middle class.

Mr. JENNER. It was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at 4801 Victor in Dallas?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. I was assistant manager of this Tex-Gold Ice Cream Parlor.

Mr. JENNER. What was Robert doing?

Mr. PIC. Nothing.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't work?

Mr. PIC. I don't think so.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. PIC. That is right, he was playing around with girls at that time.

Like I said, my mother and Mr. Ekdahl were having problems. It would seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave and come back. Well, it seems one night, as I was returning from work, I think we closed the store about 10 o'clock, Mr. Ekdahl and she drove up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were going downtown to the Worth Hotel. This was one of their reunions, and this was one of their longer separation periods.

So, I went back and I told Lee and Robert, and this seemed to really elate Lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back together. Mr. Ekdahl, while Robert and I were at the academy would write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. He would send us a poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. Well----

Mr. JENNER. I--what is your impression of Mr. Ekdahl, did Lee like him?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is your definite impression that he liked him.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I think Lee found in him the father he never had. He had treated him real good and I am sure that Lee felt the same way, I know he did. He felt the same way about it, because Mr. Ekdahl treated all of us like his own children.

Mr. JENNER. There appears to be in the file at Chamberlain-Hunt Military Academy a letter from Mr. Ekdahl to your--to you boys dated August 1946, carrying a return address of the Fayette Hotel on Third Street of Fort Worth.

Mr. PIC. I don't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This would be at the time when your mother was living in Covington. During that period.

Mr. PIC. I didn't know about it.

Mr. JENNER. You have no recollection of it?

Mr. PIC. I don't know where Mr. Ekdahl was when she was in Covington. I know he was in the Fort Worth-Dallas area is all I knew.

Mr. JENNER. Your mother and Ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back together again, more friendly?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I mentioned it because it impressed Lee.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. PIC. I think it impressed him more than it did either of the older boys.

Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur during that summer?

Mr. PIC. A whole bunch of stuff.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.

Mr. PIC. I think this is the same summer when we made the raid. I don't know if you know about the raid or not.

Mr. JENNER. I don't think so.

Mr. PIC. Well, this guy Sammy that I knew had another--knew a couple, a young married couple named Marvin and Goldie, I don't remember their last names, sir, and Sammy and I were friends, Sammy lived in a downtown hotel, and Marvin and Goldie had a house somewhere in the Fort Worth area. So we became friendly the four of us, and then they would come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. Well, after they broke up again, after this last incident.

Mr. JENNER. This is still during the summer of 1947?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had strong suspicions that Mr. Ekdahl was seeing another woman and she was following him, I don't know how. I know she had the lead, she knew where the woman lived and everything.