Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified previously that when you first met Lee Oswald in April 1963, that you discussed to some extent Gen. Edwin A. Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; I think we did discuss him in passing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had been involved in the attempt on General Walker's life?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I remember at all--nothing whatsoever. I think the only thing he did--the only thing that I can remember now, was that he seemed to have a smile in regard to that person. It was inscrutable--I didn't know what he was smiling about--I just thought perhaps it was--the guy assumed it was rapport for a person who was an extreme proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. General Walker was?

Mr. PAINE. General Walker was--yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you first met Oswald, as I recall, on April 2, I believe it was, of 1963?

Mr. PAINE. You have been keeping up with this--I haven't been thinking about Oswald for a year.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any recollection as to the date at this point?

Mr. PAINE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. In any event, you did meet Oswald sometime in April, for the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that Walker had been attacked?

Mr. PAINE. I don't recall now; and as I remember--back in the fall--I wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. It isn't just a lapse of memory now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing with Oswald the fact that someone had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. No--I don't. That would have led me to think it was prior to his being shot at.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to this specific date. Now, my question means to comprehend any time--do you remember discussing at any time with Oswald the fact that General Walker had been attacked?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not. I didn't see him--I saw him that one evening, you see, and then I didn't see him for a space of some time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see him after that one time in April until after he had returned from New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. I guess that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that would have been in October 1963?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. On June 11, 1964, Marina Oswald testified before the Commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated on page 7368 of the Commission's transcript:

Mr. McKENZIE. Mrs. Oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes
ago, that Mr. Paine knew or knows more about your husband's
attitude about the United States than you do. Why did you say
that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Because my husband's favorite topic of discussion
was politics and whoever he was with, he talked to them
politics and Mr. Paine was with him a fair amount and I am not
sure they talked about politics.

Apparently it should have been "I am quite sure they talked about politics." But, at any rate, the transcript does read, "I am not sure they talked about politics."

They went to meetings of some kind together. I don't know what
kind of meetings.

Mr. McKENZIE. Do you know where the meetings were?

Mrs. OSWALD. In Dallas. After they came back from some meeting,
my husband said to me something about Walker being at this
meeting.

Do you remember going at any meeting with Lee Oswald at which Mr. Walker was present?

Mr. PAINE. No--the only meeting I went to was the ACLU meeting, that I recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall going to any meeting yourself in October 1963, with or without Oswald, at which General Walker was present?

Mr. PAINE. General Walker was present at the--Oswald mentioned the U.N.-U.S. Day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or two or two nights before the ACLU meeting. He had been to that by himself. I had gone that same evening to a John Birch meeting. We were not together, but they were two things that occurred simultaneously, and that's where Lee, by his report at the ACLU meeting said he was and Walker was there. Maybe that's what Marina had in mind.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your ever being at a meeting when he was there?

Mr. PAINE. No; I have never seen General Walker that I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Unless he was--in a year previous to that I had been to the Indignation Committee meeting--no--that is the answer to your previous question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever remember seeing General Walker present?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently learned that he was present, although you didn't see him?

Mr. PAINE. That's right--I can't remember about the previous year, but I don't think that has relevancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, since the time you met Oswald--you were at no meetings at which General Walker was present, to your knowledge?

Mr. PAINE. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina Oswald goes on to testify and I will recapitulate part of it, "After they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me something about Walker being at this meeting and he said, 'Paine knows that I shot him.'"

Do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, is and I have already asked you that and you testified you did not know Oswald shot Walker prior to the assassination of President Kennedy; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, do you have any reason to believe that Oswald might have thought that you knew that he, Oswald, had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. I can't see how he would have thought I knew that. I just don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and I didn't catch his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume that he wasn't lying and that is the only way I can explain it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you think that this testimony that Marina has given is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on Oswald's part or on Marina's part?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever?

Mr. PAINE. I am perfectly certain that I didn't know he shot at Walker.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina herself goes on to say:

I don't know whether this was the truth or not, I don't know
whether it was true or not, but this is what they told me.

And I presume she means that's what Lee had told her.

Mr. PAINE. Now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that "they"--this is testimony in June, you said, and that "they" could possibly be Martin and Thorne. I don't know much about Martin and Thorne either, but I had the impression that they were telling her stories.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, this is what the translator said Marina had said. Marina is going to be here tomorrow and I will ask her about this then and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want to bring out now at this time is that your testimony is quite clear that you did not know before the assassination that Oswald had shot at General Walker?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You testified before that Oswald had shown you one of those newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they wanted you to do by doing some reading between the lines; is that correct?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that he was specifically referring to a copy of The Worker that he showed you at that time?

Mr. PAINE. It was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Oswald reading The Militant?

Mr. PAINE. I do not now remember which are the things that I have come to realize later and which I knew at the time. I was not particularly aware of The Militant, as I recall. I really have to remember what my feelings were back in the fall when I was questioned on the matter and that, as I recall, the name and quality or the name and nature of The Militant wasn't really very familiar to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about the U.S. policies toward Cuba?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't think we did discuss that except in the very brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's approval--apparent approval of Castro and citing that he was a Communist.

Mr. LIEBELER. I remember you testified about that before--that it was on the way back home after an ACLU meeting.

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you told him, or thought if that was what he had to go on to identify anyone as a Communist, that he apparently was reaching quite far?

Mr. PAINE. I thought so, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that in the fall of 1963 there was a climate of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente between the United States and the Soviet Union that apparently led people in some quarters to believe that the Soviet Union would withdraw its support from the Castro regime or at least modify its attitude?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about that?

Mr. PAINE. No, we did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of such a thing?

Mr. PAINE. We very seldom spoke about it. Most of our discussions were to the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area of disagreement it didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so we didn't talk about Soviet-American relations as I recall it in that regard.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 237 and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual?

Mr. PAINE. I remember the same face on a picture that I saw earlier, but I had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person, but he could work at Bell.

Mr. LIEBELER. In our discussions in Washington, we had some conversations about what you thought Oswald's possible motive might have been for the assassination--I don't think you have really ever set them forth for us on the record, and if you care to give us your views on that, I would appreciate having them.

Mr. PAINE. I was more eager to speak about it then--I was thinking about it then. Since that time I haven't thought about it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time you were in Washington?

Mr. PAINE. I think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are now. I thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his head when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a duck blind there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even though he couldn't predict from that action what course history would take, that in my opinion would not have deterred him from doing it. I thought that he was of the mind that something small or evolutionary changes were never going to be of any effect. It had to be, though he never revealed to me what kind of actions or policies he would have advocated or did advocate or did want to see--I had frequently had the impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic nature, where kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those actions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society ought to be structured?

Mr. PAINE. Yes--he did discuss them but not in a way---did he ever describe anything that could be real. It was more a way that society should not be structured, that he talked about. Now, I shouldn't really say that--it was a negative description of how society should not be, and I never did get a description of what he would like or what one of a more positive nature would be like.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change?

Mr. PAINE. Well, I don't know about the suddenness but he assumed that the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I never did get it clear in my mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you he had written about this subject?

Mr. PAINE. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never read any of the things he wrote?

Mr. PAINE. No; I didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know he had written about anything?

Mr. PAINE. No; if I had thought he had written about something, I would certainly have been eager to have read it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any opinion that this man was psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and neurosis or psychosis--you pick it.

Mr. PAINE. No; truthfully, I should say that did not appear to be a good description. It seemed simpler and more to the point to say he was extremely bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in people. There was mostly evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the description--that was his opinion or would be his description of most people. That's my description, and the best description I can give of him--to call him other psychological names--names of paranoia or paranoid or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you pick that particular name?

Mr. PAINE. Well, that kind of suspicion of people--expecting them to be consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed people--workers--is perhaps a trait of paranoia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that he exhibited this trait?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. He didn't generally take it--I would say he was paranoid if he always took it personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put himself in the class of people who were oppressed, so that's the distinction why I wouldn't call him sick or wouldn't have then called him sick--before the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in institutional terms?

Mr. PAINE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And in terms of the social structure and the impact the world had on classes and groups of people?

Mr. PAINE. He was in the exploited class.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; there was no doubt about that--I mean, as far as his own mind was concerned--that's what he thought?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes that were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it clear that he did regard himself as being included in that class of people.

Mr. PAINE. That's correct. Now, I think he was a little--I can't remember now where I got the impression that he was allergic to the FBI, which is another case of him mentioning being sensitive to a person--a sense of persecution, but the only thing that I do remember that he did mention that surprised me a little bit was his sense of personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving company.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you say you cannot remember where you got the idea that he was allergic to the FBI, you mean you don't remember whether you were aware of that before the assassination?

Mr. PAINE. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of it before the assassination or can't you remember?

Mr. PAINE. I think I learned that from Ruth's statement of things that he had said and I don't remember whether that was before or after.

Mr. LIEBELER. For instance, if you were told that he in fact did have quite an allergy to the FBI, whether you were aware of it or not at that time, I suppose that that would provide an example of one or two things--either an accurate description of what was going on or a slightly exaggerated or greatly exaggerated notion of what was going on and to that extent a manifestation of this feeling of persecution, as he put it.

Mr. PAINE. Yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and the fact that he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things that would have to have the legitimate fear of the surveillance by the FBI because he would want to be attempting to do something that wasn't legal or proper. In other words, that would agitate him with grounds--for other reasons than paranoia.

Mr. LIEBELER. One of the witnesses who knew him in the Marine Corps testified that he thought that Oswald had a persecution complex which he strove to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way?

Mr. PAINE. Well, he was certainly--I wanted to give him some sense of letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the world and to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward his enemies--his employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully in control of the social situation as he made out, and he certainly resisted all efforts on my part to think in a more generous and active way toward people toward whom he felt bitter. In other words, he had no inclination or tendency to try to get out of that mood--I don't remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that attitude.

I suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about the only way he would or could get it out. He perhaps never had any experience of relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being kind to someone, so you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that was just pious or just talking to suggest that that was a way out of that feeling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our particular society?

Mr. PAINE. Yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive feelings.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that it affected his attitude toward almost everything?

Mr. PAINE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with his wife?

Mr. PAINE. No; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. I thought he was very proper.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that?

Mr. PAINE. Well, this is the way I supposed he was. I knew that he didn't smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine attitude toward women or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a form of life that would be contradictory to his ethics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no idea that he had been engaged in the Fair Play for Cuba activities while he was in New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Ruth about Oswald's employment situation in New Orleans?

Mr. PAINE. Not that I can recall--no. I think I asked her what kind of a job he had found, and that was the extent of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did she tell you he had found?

Mr. PAINE. She said he had found the same kind of work he left here--the engraving business--or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Ruth ever mentioning that Oswald had said that he had gotten fired from his job in New Orleans because of his activities in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mr. PAINE. No; I don't remember her mentioning that.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. PAINE. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MAJ. GEN. EDWIN A. WALKER AND GEN. CLYDE J. WATTS

The testimony of Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker was taken at 4:15 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that General Walker is being represented by Clyde J. Watts of Oklahoma City.

Would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

General WALKER. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

Pursuant to the Commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to be represented by counsel. As the record now indicates, you are represented by counsel, General Watts. I understand that you are appearing voluntarily before the Commission in response to its request to give testimony touching upon certain matters relating to Lee Harvey Oswald and to the assassination of President Kennedy. Is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like to have the record show that prior to the commencement of this deposition, a discussion between General Watts and General Walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement under which a copy of the transcript of the testimony which will be taken here today will be made available here at the office of the U.S. attorney for examination by General Walker and by his counsel. They will be given an opportunity to make whatever changes in the testimony may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects accurately what happened here today.

We also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with Mr. Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission, that as soon as a copy can reasonably be made available, within 2 or 3 days after this transcript has been signed by General Walker and approved by me, a copy of the transcript will be made available to General Walker at his expense. It may be purchased from the court reporter here in Dallas. We will make whatever arrangements may seem proper at that time to give the general a corrected copy. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

General WALKER. Edwin A. Walker. A stands for Anderson.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

General WALKER. 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived there?

General WALKER. I believe since December of 1961 or January of 1962. I am not sure of the month I moved in.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your background for the record, since I think we all know who you are, but you are a retired major general, are you not?

General WALKER. No. I am former major general, now resigned from the U.S. Army.

Mr. LIEBELER. You resigned from the Army. Where were you originally born and raised, general?

General WALKER. At Center Point, Tex. I was born in 1909, November 10. Center Point is Kerr County. It is C-e-n-t-e-r P-o-i-n-t, Kerr County, Tex. That is 60 miles west of San Antonio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Since your resignation from the Army and your taking up residence in Dallas, you have been active, have you not, in various political endeavors here in Dallas and throughout the United States?

General WALKER. Patriotic and political endeavors.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is my understanding that on the evening of April 10, 1963, some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on Turtle Creek Boulevard; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them?

General WALKER. I was sitting behind my desk. It was right at 9 o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. I was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when I heard a blast and a crack right over my head.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then?

General WALKER. I thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the house and I thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. Since there is a church back there, often there are children playing back there. Then I looked around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so I got up and walked around the desk and looked back where I was sitting and I saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while I was sitting to my right as I looked back, and the desk was catercornered in the corner up against this wall. I noticed there was a hole in the wall, so I went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything outside that you could relate to this attack on you?

General WALKER. No, sir; I couldn't. As I crossed a window coming downstairs in front, I saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a turn onto Turtle Creek. The car was unidentifiable. I could see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and I could see it moving out. This car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a getaway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now as I understand it, there is an alley that runs directly at the rear of your house; is that correct?

General WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that alley run directly into Turtle Creek Boulevard, or does it join with another alley?

General WALKER. No, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with the street called Avondale.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that to get----

General WALKER. At one end is Avondale, which runs into Turtle Creek going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the church. As you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right, you go down the church alley going into Turtle Creek, and that is where the car was going down that I referred to, and it was just making the turn out of the church alley.

Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs into Turtle Creek?

General WALKER. No; directly from the church alley into the Turtle Creek main boulevard. Now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically to Oak Lawn. Hardly anybody knows it is there, because you have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. And as I know, only garbage trucks use it. I have been up and down it once or twice only.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door of your house?

General WALKER. I went out the back door.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went into the alley?

General WALKER. I went about halfway out to the alley.

Mr. LIEBELER. From that point you could observe this car that was just turning?

General WALKER. No, sir. I observed that--it was already gone--I observed that from the window upstairs as I came down with the pistol. I could see out the south window, front and left.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering Turtle Creek Boulevard?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see which direction it turned?

General WALKER. Left, going north.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to make any kind of identification of the automobile at all?

General WALKER. None at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to see how many people were in it?

General WALKER. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just debarking?

General WALKER. There was no way to tell, because from the upstair's windows you were looking through trees at the car and I probably wouldn't have seen it unless I had seen the two taillights of it. It only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can hardly see.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1008, and ask you if you can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it.

General WALKER. Well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. It is not really a picture. They used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this does show the hole in the wall over your desk that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct?

General WALKER. As far as I can identify it, that is what it looks like. I could take the picture and probably match it up with those flowers. It is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 1007, and ask you if you can recognize what is shown in that picture.

General WATTS. Can we go off the record a minute?

Mr. LIEBELER. Certainly.

(Discussion off the record.)

General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is it, generally?

General WALKER. It is an outside picture taken looking into the house, taken from the west. The camera pointed east and took the house, and it shows the shot and the broken glass in the window.

Mr. LIEBELER. The window of your home?

General WALKER. The window of my home at 4011 Turtle Creek Boulevard.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window through which the shot was fired at you on April 10, 1963?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible to see your desk?

General WALKER. Yes; you can see the chair. Let's go off the record a minute.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's stay on the record. It is all right.

General WALKER. All right, what I had mixed up, I never knew anybody got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. I didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. I was thinking the picture was taken from the inside, but I see it perfectly now and it is from the outside. This looks like there is a table here, from this window, and in the corner running that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just inside the window?

General WALKER. Just inside the window. Then there is a space between that and the desk. Then the desk is here at an angle across this corner, and that looks like the chair. No; I am not sure. I did have a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. It is possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. There are two windows in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. That is one of those panels, I suspect, like the flower panel. The window is still further back here.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it is not possible to see your desk from that picture?

General WALKER. That picture is taken at this angle, see.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you can't really see your desk?

General WALKER. I would say my desk is back in that corner.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it would be directly, if you stood at the window and looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk across the room?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your desk directly across the room from the window, or was it sitting catercornered?

General WALKER. It was sitting catercornered in the corner on the opposite side of the room. I was facing out over the desk toward the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. When the shot was fired?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you were almost facing the window at the time the shot was fired; is that correct? Looking sideways?

General WALKER. No; I was looking to the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sideways to the window? I am trying to drive at what kind of shot the man had at you. Was he shooting at you from the side, from the back, or from the front? I think it would be from the side.

General WALKER. More from the side than the front. Definitely from the side but a little at an angle, because I was facing the center of the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1006, and ask you if this is not also a picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point?

General WALKER. That looks like the window and where the shot was fired through the window into the room. It certainly must be the same shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. It purports to be a photograph that was turned over to the Commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture of that window.

General WALKER. That is the same shot then.

Mr. LIEBELER. The bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the window frame before it went through. Does that accord with your recollection?

General WALKER. The bullet went through the screen frame. Then it went through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 1009, and ask you if this is not in fact a picture of the next room.

General WALKER. To closer identify that further, the screen frame has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the glass.

Mr. LIEBELER. Commission Exhibit No. 1009 is a picture of the room next to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that was stored and the place where the bullet came out.

General WALKER. That identifies the next room where the bullet went through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. The bullet was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have here a photograph which I am marking as Walker Exhibit No. 1, and which I will initial for the purpose of identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion as to the identification of that picture.

(General Walker initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now are you able to tell from looking at that picture what it shows?

General WALKER. Yes; I can identify this picture. It is the backyard of my house at 4011 Turtle Creek. It is a view from a position taken near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed east. It shows the fence running down on the left side between my rented property, and the church property.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you see the room in which you were sitting when this shot was fired at you in that picture. I call your attention to where the police officer is standing. There is a police officer standing over there in front of a window, isn't there?

General WALKER. I can see the corner of the house. The window is right in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you have indicated that where the policeman is standing in this Walker Exhibit No. 1, is part of the entrance to the house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time the shot was fired at you? You were sitting in a room that is not even visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct. The policeman is to the left--to the right. His position is to the right.

Mr. LIEBELER. As you face the picture?

General WALKER. Of the room I was sitting in.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't actually see the window through which the shot came in that picture?

General WALKER. Not in this picture, you can't see the window.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Dallas Police Department, of course, sent officers out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got out in the backyard and reviewed the possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that time, and specifically I wonder----

General WALKER. Seems to me I talked to them in the room first and showed them around. I believe I did. I can't recall whether they asked me out or not. There wasn't much to tell them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to determine the spot from which it appeared the shot had been fired?

General WALKER. We lined up the shot, the police did, and I noticed they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the area immediately behind the picture?

General WALKER. Just behind the camera that took this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; Walker Exhibit No. 1. Were you able to determine to your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired?

General WALKER. I was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence which had spaces in it, squares of about 4 to 6 inches.

Certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the wall, gives the direction. The distance would be questionable to this point, based on the information I have.

Mr. LIEBELER. I hand you a photograph that I have marked Walker Exhibit No. 2, and I ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there.

(General Walker initials.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence to which you have just referred?

General WALKER. Yes; it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that the shot was probably from the other side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that correct?

I suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. General Watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera with the rifle through the fence?

General WALKER. If he fired through the fence, he would very likely have been right in this picture, that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, when I look at Walker Exhibit No. 1, since you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, I have considerable difficulty in that I can't see the window through which the shot went. How could the shot have been fired from there?

General WALKER. You can sit in the house and turn off your lights and look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. It is just a question of lighting. The difficulty you are having here is a question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this picture which was obviously taken at night with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation?

General WALKER. Not at all, because you can't see the house, and that is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. Windows don't show there. There is a whole glassed-in porch to the left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. There is a 5 by 6 glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit that doesn't show.

Then there is a window beside that porch in the room I was sitting in.

Well, delete that. I don't think the cooler was in the window at that time, but from that window, there is a space of 6 or 8 feet. Then you come to the window that was fired through, and then there is 2 or 3 feet to the corner of the house.

Then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. That picture, being Walker Exhibit No. 1.

General WALKER. But I don't see how you could take a picture and see less of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the picture and everything dark. The whole house is dark under the light, the way that picture was taken, so that you see very little of the house except the policeman, what he has of the light coming out behind him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right. Now did you make any sudden movement on or about the time that shot was fired?

General WALKER. None that I was aware of; no. Just moving with a pencil and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from where you were sitting to the fence where we think the shot was fired from? How many feet?

General WALKER. I would say 100 feet. I would say between 100 and 120 feet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever say in words or substance after this shot was fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? That sounds like something you might say, doesn't it?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember saying that?

General WALKER. But I will tell you what I did think. I think I said that, right. The police asked me to sit down. You want me to tell you?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

General WALKER. The police asked me to sit down when I got there and they went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and outside.

And one policeman said, "He couldn't have missed you." And one said, a lieutenant I believe it was, said, "It was an attempted assassination."

And I said, "What makes you call it that?" And he said, "Because he definitely was out to get you."

And I said, "Your remark sounds like a natural remark." But as I later was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without a scope. He couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work either in the windows or in the screens because of the light. It would have looked like one big lighted area, and he could have been a very good shot and just by chance he hit the woodwork.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which he did in fact?

General WALKER. Which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet that went into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture?

General WALKER. Yes; I identify this picture looking approximately south down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the alley enters the church, a few steps short of where the alley enters the church parking area. It is facing approximately south. Shows the back entrance to my back yard and the tree and my garbage can and the lattice fence on the west.

Mr. LIEBELER. The alley that runs down there is the alley that runs directly behind your house, isn't that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct. And the direction we are looking is the direction in which it connects and joins Avondale Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that object in the background that looks like a building maybe under construction?

General WALKER. That is the bigger apartment house down south of me.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 1003, that is a copy of Exhibit No. 1003, and ask you if that larger apartment building shown in the right background of that picture is not in fact the same building that is shown as being under construction in Commission Exhibit No. 2?

General WALKER. As well as I can identify it, it looks like the same building.

Mr. LIEBELER. Looking further at Exhibit No. 1003, there is a house that is circled and indicated by the letter "A." That is, in fact, your house, is it not?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the street marked "E" is Turtle Creek Boulevard?

General WALKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not?

General WALKER. That is correct. And "H" would be Avondale.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right. And "G" is Irving Street?

General WALKER. That I don't know. Probably is. The church alley shows up here going into Turtle Creek.

Mr. LIEBELER. Point that out to me, would you please?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is a little street that runs right between your house and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the circle?

General WALKER. Which is the Mormon Church.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the church, is that correct?

General WALKER. And the car was right here I referred to.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just turning from the church alley?

General WALKER. Just turning here, and turning this direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. Turning left up Turtle Creek?

General WALKER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a document, a picture which is a copy of Commission Exhibit No. 5 and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed in that picture?

General WALKER. I recognize my house in this picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize anything else? Specifically, I draw your attention to the automobile that is shown in there.

General WALKER. I do not recognize the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Charles Klihr?

General WALKER. Would you spell it again?

Mr. LIEBELER. I will spell it right in just a minute. K-l-i-h-r. 2046 Rosebud Street, Irving, Tex. Do you know that man?

General WALKER. Not that spelling. I know a Charles Clyr. As I know the spelling, it is C-l-y-r.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live out in Irving?

General WALKER. I think he does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you recognize his address?

General WALKER. I wouldn't recognize his address. I don't recognize that address. That could or couldn't be it.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about that car, do you recognize that as his car?

General WALKER. I don't recognize that car.

Mr. LIEBELER. This gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to time?

General WALKER. If it is the one I am referring to, he is in and out quite often, right. He and his wife have helped me quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you aren't able to identify that car as being his?

General WALKER. No; I am not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does that car appear to be a 1957 Chevrolet? Or aren't you able to tell by looking?

General WALKER. I am not able to tell. I am not very good on cars.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you indicate that to the very far left of this photograph, Commission Exhibit No. 5, through these bushes there is a window, and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is that correct?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there as you look at the picture?

General WALKER. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt that that is the back of your house?

General WALKER. None at all. That is the back of the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen that picture before, have you?

General WALKER. No; I haven't.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph which is a copy of Commission Exhibit No. 3. The photograph that I refer to is set forth in this copy, and I refer specifically to the one denominated P-1 and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed therein.

General WALKER. Yes; I recognize that as the back of my house, a portion of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have another photograph I have marked Walker Exhibit No. 3, and I ask you to initial that, if you would, for the purpose of identification.

General WALKER (initials). Can I look at it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, please. That is a picture of the back of your house too, isn't it?

General WALKER. Yes; it is.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have shown you another picture which is Walker Exhibit No. 4, and I ask you to initial that, and ask you if that isn't in fact a picture of the alley behind your house.

General WALKER (initials). Yes; that is a picture of the alley looking south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down to where the alley connects with Avondale showing the back fence and the entrance into my backyard. I believe the picture is taken at a different date from the other one we referred to, because the fence has been changed behind the house.

Mr. LIEBELER. That apartment is completed in the picture?

General WALKER. That's right. There was work on the fence in the other house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of construction.

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, it looks to be completed in Walker Exhibit No. 4, does it not, the apartment building?

General WALKER. Yes; it does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you a series of photographs which are copies of Commission Exhibits Nos. 998, 999, 1000, 1002, and 1004, and ask you if each and every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general vicinity of your home and surrounding area, and if the identification of landmarks in those pictures, insofar as you can tell, is correct.

General WALKER. 998 is identification of my home. 1000 would certainly include the area of my home. It is hard to identify the exact house marked "A".

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that big old apartment building is in there in 1000?

General WALKER. That is correct. So it is bound to include the area of my home; 1002 is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; 1004 certainly includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult without further study to definitely identify that as my home. They all include the area of my home. My home definitely is in those pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as the identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned?

General WALKER. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back to the record on this Klihr, it does appear, in fact, to be K-l-i-h-r.

General WALKER. Why don't we ring the house and establish that that is correct. LA 1-4415.

(General Watts called on phone and confirmed it was K-l-i-h-r.)

General WALKER. What is it?

General WATTS. K-l-i-h-r.

General WALKER. All right; that is the original spelling you had?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

General WALKER. OK; that is correct. It is Charles Klihr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Robert Surrey?

General WALKER. Yes, I do.