Chapter IX: Part 9

Mr. THORNLEY. Say May 3 to September 4.

Mr. JENNER. You were not in New Orleans?

Mr. THORNLEY. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed there for approximately a month or so?

Mr. THORNLEY. Longer than that.

Mr. JENNER. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and you then returned directly to New Orleans?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. During none of that period of time did you have any contact with or hear anything about Oswald?

Mr. THORNLEY. Definitely not.

Mr. JENNER. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the name of Sylvia Bortin?

Mr. THORNLEY. Sylvia Bortin?

Mr. JENNER. B-o-r-t-i-n.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; this young lady, by the way----

Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside?

Mr. THORNLEY. In Whittier, Calif., or at least last summer she did, I don't know where she resides now. This young lady, by the way, was mentioned in--her mention in this whole matter came out of a misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the FBI agents.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you explain that, please?

Mr. THORNLEY. I don't recall what the question was--oh, yes, he had asked me something about, I believe it was the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. I had mentioned earlier at the time I was talking to Oswald, and knew Oswald, I had been going to the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. This is a group of quite far to the left people politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my political relationship with Oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask me questions about the First Unitarian Church and I answered, and then he realized or understood or asked what Oswald's connection with the First Unitarian Church was and I explained to him that there was none. Miss Bortin never knew Oswald and vice versa, and these people were two different parts of my life. There was this civilian compartment and the military compartment, and I never intermingled them.

Mr. JENNER. This young lady married and her husband is now in Havana, Cuba?

Mr. THORNLEY. That is what she told me last summer; yes. He was going to school in Cuba.

Mr. JENNER. I take it this had nothing to do with yourself and Oswald's views with respect to Castro that you told us about.

Mr. THORNLEY. No; this happened, I think, later, in fact I am sure it happened later. At that time Miss Bortin, she was then unmarried, did not know Robert Uname, I believe. I met him, I believe, September a year later.

Mr. JENNER. Had you finished that?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that Oswald had no close personal friends at least that you observed?

Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct. And the name of his closest friends I do not know. I do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to get along with pretty well.

Mr. JENNER. In the unit?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; but I don't recall this man's name. If it was mentioned to me, I probably could, but----

Mr. JENNER. You were groping for it when you were interviewed. You suggested it might be Charles----

Mr. THORNLEY. I mentioned a Charles.

Mr. JENNER. Weis.

Mr. THORNLEY. Weir, but that was not the man. This was a friend of a friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information perhaps that I couldn't.

At this time perhaps, also, I was thinking of a possibility it might have been Weir and since then I have remembered definitely who Weir was.

Mr. JENNER. Who was he?

Mr. THORNLEY. I don't remember whether his first name was Charles but I remember who he was.

Mr. JENNER. He was a noncom?

Mr. THORNLEY. There was a man named Cooley. There was somebody else, and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk Russian in the ranks with Oswald in the morning I don't know, but that is who it was.

Mr. JENNER. Is this particular man you now mentioned the man who occasionally talked Russian with Oswald in the ranks, is he the man who you had in mind?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As having been a friend of Oswald's?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; in that in the same respect that I was a friend of Oswald's. Once, again, the exact terminology I would use would be close acquaintance.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I would say from your description of the relationship with Oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship.

Mr. THORNLEY. I think it was probably the same with this person from what I recall, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of Oswald?

Mr. THORNLEY. No; Oswald was not the type of person who had, as it has been emphasized on all parts, I think, and it confirms my own impression, was not the type of person who made close friends or who stuck with close friends.

Mr. JENNER. You saw no instance in which Oswald evidenced affection for anybody, I mean in the nice sense of the word?

Mr. THORNLEY. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Or anybody evidenced any affection in the nice sense of the word for him?

Mr. THORNLEY. No.

Mr. JENNER. I take it your trip to Mexico City was purely one of general interest as you have described and had nothing to do with any interest on your part in going to Cuba or attempting to go to Cuba?

Mr. THORNLEY. Believe me, no. I have no desire to go to Cuba unless I am going to take a rifle and be on an invasion force or something.

Mr. JENNER. Did you hear of anybody in the Marine Corps, whose last name was Hidell?

Mr. THORNLEY. At the time this name was mentioned to me that was--that person, whoever it was that Oswald used to speak to in the ranks in the morning came to my mind. But I can't say that that was the name, and I am--of course, now, I am very leery that that--very uncertain as to ever having heard the name Hidell, and I doubt it very much.

Mr. JENNER. Shortly after the unfortunate occurrence of November 22, 1963, you were interviewed by Secret Service agents, were you not?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes. Now, this is what I had mentioned earlier. This was the Monday interview, of November 25, actually it was midnight Sunday night as I recall. It seemed to me a couple of days later before I spoke to the FBI. I believe there was a Mr. Rice--was one of the men.

Mr. JENNER. This was the evening of the 23d of November?

Mr. THORNLEY. Was it the 23d?

Mr. JENNER. It probably ran over.

Mr. THORNLEY. It must have been Saturday evening then. I had thought it was Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. In any event you were then interviewed by some newspaper reporters?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; that was quite some time afterward.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it was before November 27, 1963, was it not?

Mr. THORNLEY. It was after the 25th, I think. It was after I had finished talking to the FBI, as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. I will mark as Thornley's Exhibit No. 1 what purports to be a Xerox reprint of a newspaper article.

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with that?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What newspaper was this from?

Mr. THORNLEY. The States-Item of New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And that article was a result of the newspaperman's interview with you?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see it upon its publication?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with it?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Does it substantially accurately reflect at least portions of, in reasonable context, the interview you had with the newspaper reporter?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; to a surprising degree for a newspaper, on the basis of my past experience in dealings with them.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything in that article that you regard as reasonably seriously erroneous?

Mr. THORNLEY. Not when I read it the last time.

Mr. JENNER. Insofar as it attributes anything to you?

Mr. THORNLEY. May I reread it?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. THORNLEY. I would say this is accurate in everything it attributes to me.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 1 in evidence.

Now, it appears from that article and from the testimony you have given this morning that you were stimulated, or, as you have indicated you prepared at least a first draft of a book or pamphlet or article respecting your experiences in the Marine Corps, and one of the central characters of which, mythical or otherwise, was a friend, Oswald.

Mr. THORNLEY. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And when I spoke to you by telephone the other day I inquired of you as to whether that was still in existence and you responded that it was.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring it with you.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you done so?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. May I see it, please?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; here is the draft completed in February of 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I am interested in seeing that in its condition as of that time.

Mr. THORNLEY. Right. That is it. There is only one addition and there is some blank paper on top. There is one addition, and that is the short preface written yesterday to give some idea of how much was fact and how much was fiction.

Mr. JENNER. All right--the page numbered 2?

Mr. THORNLEY. There was a table of contents once and it took two pages.

Mr. JENNER. Which I might identify in addition thereto as having the word "Preface," at its top and your name and the date May 17, 1964, Arlington, Va., at the bottom. That is what you prepared yesterday, is that correct?

Mr. THORNLEY. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. All of the balance, therefore, commencing with the pages numbered 3 and running through, I assume, consecutively?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. To page 250 is the article as it was when you completed it in February 1962?

Mr. THORNLEY. Precisely.

Mr. JENNER. I would like the opportunity of reading through this and, of course, 200-odd pages, we don't have the time to do it as of the moment, and the Commission would like to have it among its records. May I have the material and I will take it in the back room. We have a Xerox, and have it duplicated? This, I appreciate, is your personal property and it is of value. It is not something that the Commission will place in the hands of others who may make commercial use of it.

Mr. THORNLEY. I am quite sure that it will be perfectly safe.

Mr. JENNER. All right. It is in the same condition now, that is, pages 3 through 250, as those pages were when you completed this manuscript in February 1962?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; there might have been a couple of spelling errors corrected since then or typographical errors but that is all.

Mr. JENNER. And that article of which we now speak and which for purposes of identification I will mark as Thornley Exhibit No. 2, and I offer Thornley Exhibit No. 2 in evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 2 for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Subsequently thereto, I understand from my conversation with you, you prepared a revision of that paper.

Mr. THORNLEY. I have been working on a revision.

Mr. JENNER. And you were kind enough to say you would bring that along with you as well. Have you done so?

Mr. THORNLEY. I have been between this draft----

Mr. JENNER. When you said "this draft" you are referring to Thornley Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2, and the draft I am now giving you--several illegible drafts were made. This represents not the latest draft, but the latest typewritten draft. It represents a fragment of it.

The first third, almost the first third, minus a couple of pages of a novelette based upon this Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. JENNER. For purposes of identification the witness has now handed me a set of letter-sized pages numbered 1 through 37, consecutively.

Are they consecutive?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I take it, as against the length of the other paper, that these pages 1 through 37, represent an incomplete novel.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is it covers only a portion of the areas and times covered by Thornley Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. THORNLEY. This ones takes a completely different approach in that this did not take a chronological approach to the development of the character based on Oswald, but takes a flashback approach.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. THORNLEY. Centering around an investigation of that character after his defection to the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. For further identification of the document which I will mark Thornley Exhibit No. 3, page 1 is entitled "Chapter 1, Gung Ho."

Page 4 is entitled "Chapter 2, Fallen Comrade."

Page 7, in the center, is entitled "Chapter 3, Hush Hush."

Page 11 is entitled "Chapter 4, Blue Marines."

Page 14, in the upper portion, is entitled "Chapter 5, Peace Gospel."

Page 21 is entitled, at the head, "Chapter 7, The Killer."

Page 24, near the center, is entitled "Chapter 8, Captain Kidd."

Page 27, at the bottom, "Chapter 9, Mutiny."

Page 31, "Chapter 10, John Henry."

Page 34, "Chapter 11, The Storms."

And page 37, "Chapter 12, The Chicken."

(The document referred to was marked Thornley Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)

Mr. THORNLEY. Now, this Exhibit No. 3 is a much greater fictionalized approach toward, well, as far as reference goes to Oswald, the character upon--the character which is based upon Oswald in Exhibit No. 2, Johnny Shellburn, Exhibit No. 3 is much farther from life.

Mr. JENNER. Is Johnny Shellburn assimilated to Oswald?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; much more so in Exhibit No. 2, though, than in this one.

Mr. JENNER. That is Exhibit No. 3.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes; since I wrote Exhibit No. 2, I have learned to write fiction rather than a thinly disguised biography.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, Exhibit No. 2 was primarily a biography?

Mr. THORNLEY. Not in the strict sense that it portrayed a man's life in detail, but in the sense that any reference, most of the references, as is explained in this preface toward the end of the book----

Mr. JENNER. When you say this preface, you mean the preface to Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. THORNLEY. That is, Johnny Shellburn toward the end of the book, well, from before the middle of the book on, extends more and more to reflect Oswald's character, and I definitely was thinking about Lee Harvey Oswald when I wrote this book, Exhibit No. 2, whereas----

Mr. JENNER. In your discussion refer to them by exhibit number.

Mr. THORNLEY. I will keep my hands below the table.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have to do that. Just use the exhibit numbers.

Mr. THORNLEY. Whereas in Exhibit No. 3, I have universalized it more, tried to get away from giving any impression that I am making a chronology of the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald, which is something I thought would be relevant as far as the Commission would be concerned in reading the material.

Mr. JENNER. Would you mark Exhibit No. 3 accordingly, Mr. Reporter?

I offer in evidence Thornley Exhibit No. 3. I take it, Mr. Thornley, that you commenced the preparation of Exhibit No. 3 subsequently to the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that Exhibit No. 3 reflects a course of events and their imprint upon you that occurred on and after November 22, 1963.

Mr. THORNLEY. No, no; Exhibit No. 3 reflects the same course of events reflected in Exhibit No. 2. As far as the telling of the story goes and the characters therein it takes place back in 1959. It makes a definite attempt, however, to get away from Oswald as a specific character and to discuss the problem of disillusionment in the peacetime military or disillusionment with values on a much more universalized range than Exhibit No. 2.

Mr. JENNER. All right. May I make a copy of Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under the same circumstances and upon the same conditions as you granted your consent to make a copy of Exhibit No. 2?

Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir; Exhibit No. 3 also does include some things on--that I have acquired through the news on Oswald since the assassination because Oswald tends to reflect the type of person I was talking about. So to put it, to make it as clear as possible, right now I realize I am saying Exhibit No. 3 is more like Oswald and less like Oswald, to put it as clearly as possible.

Mr. JENNER. You are going in two directions at once.

Mr. THORNLEY. Exhibit No. 2 is more like the Oswald I knew in MACS 9, the Oswald of my experience, whereas Exhibit No. 3 is a universalized Oswaldian-type character based upon not only my own experience but the news that has come to me about Oswald, about other people like Oswald, other defectors, other assassins, and so on and so forth, since November 22.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mr. Thornley, tell me something about Kerry Thornley. You obviously, to me, are not a doorman.

Mr. THORNLEY. Oh, yes; I am a doorman.

Mr. JENNER. You are at the moment performing that service. But that isn't your objective in life.

Mr. THORNLEY. My objective is to write books, novels primarily, as many as I can in the years that are given to me, and possibly upon publication of one of them to go back to school to further my ability to write.

Mr. JENNER. Are you taking any training in that respect or have you in recent years?

Mr. THORNLEY. Well, not formally. I have devoted myself to a lot of exercises in writing, and I have availed myself of the help of any experts I could grab onto, including successful novelists and former newspaper reporters and so on and so forth, to help me solve problems in my writing and improve it, but there is really, to my mind, my outlook on writing a novel; for example, there is not much you can learn from a formal course in writing. I think you can learn much more from, say, the study of linguistics or semantics; if you are going to learn anything from a university, for example, on writing, and this I intend to do in due time.

Mr. JENNER. We occasionally have been off the record, not often, and I have talked with you on the telephone. Is there anything that was said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the Commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of President Kennedy that I have failed to bring onto the record?

Mr. THORNLEY. No, sir; I think we have very thoroughly covered it.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think might be pertinent to our inquiry and of help to the Commission?

Mr. THORNLEY. No; there is certainly nothing else I can think of.

Mr. JENNER. Your deposition will be written up rather promptly. We probably will have it tomorrow, and would you be good enough to call me, say--when do you go on duty?

Mr. THORNLEY. At 5 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. Call me in the forenoon--I mean right after lunch--and if it is convenient will you come in and read over your deposition and sign it?

Mr. THORNLEY. All right. May I just, to make absolutely sure, may I take down your phone number once more?

AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr. on June 27, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF FLORIDA, _County of Hillsborough, ss_:

I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being duly sworn say:

1. I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the University of Florida this summer.

2. My wife and I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for 12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire trip was approximately 16 days.

3. Before this trip, I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey Oswald.

4. All of the passengers ate at one table; however, Lee Harvey Oswald missed quite a few meals because he was seasick much of the time. Furthermore, there was no fixed schedule for meals. When we did have meals with Oswald, he sat cater-cornered from me. However, Oswald was rather withdrawn, and thus I did not converse with him a great deal. Oswald did state during our discussion of our destinations, that he was going to attend a university in Switzerland. Oswald did not give the name of the university and did not indicate that he had a clear cut schedule as to his course of study.

5. I recall having discussed with Oswald the Depression of the 1930's. Oswald appeared quite bitter as to the hard time his mother had suffered during this period. I tried to point out to Oswald that I had lived through and survived the Depression and that millions of people in the United States also had suffered during those years. This, however, made no impression on Oswald.

6. Oswald spent much of the time by himself. He did not participate in any of the social activities, nor in any conversation. He did mention his service in the Marine Corps, and he stated that he did not like the military service. Generally Oswald was not friendly, and he did not make much of an impression on me since I was not particularly interested in him.

7. The ship had a receiver in the ward room which was off and on during the voyage. I did listen to it occasionally, and I did understand German. I do not know if Oswald listened to the receiver or not, and I have no idea as to his knowledge of any foreign language.

8. Oswald did not indicate that he was going to go to Russia.

9. After the trip I never saw nor heard from Lee Harvey Oswald again.

Signed this 27th day of June 1964.

(S) George B. Church, Jr.,
GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF MRS. GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., on June 27, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF FLORIDA, _County of Hillsborough, ss_:

I, Mrs. George B. Church, Jr., being duly sworn say:

1. I live at 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida. I travelled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959.

2. I recall that besides my husband, there were two other passengers: Lee Harvey Oswald and Bill Lord. My husband and I sat at the same table with Oswald for meals, but outside of meals, we did not have much contact with him. While I had endeavored to get acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald, he did not enter into friendly conversation. He stayed to himself, and I considered him peculiar.

3. Oswald indicated that the purpose of the trip was to attend a university in Switzerland, but he evaded giving the name of the university and, he did not indicate any clear cut or positive courses of study other than a statement to the effect that he might study philosophy or psychology. His attitude seemed to be one of resentment. His roommate, Bill Lord, was going to attend a university in France and was studying French during the trip. Lord was quite exuberant about his course of study and purpose of life, in contrast to the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald.

4. I do not recall Oswald doing any reading. However, I gave him a book which he never returned.

5. Upon completion of the voyage aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes, I obtained the address of Bill Lord for the purpose of perhaps later writing him or sending him Christmas cards. I also requested Oswald's address and he questioned the purpose of my request. He later reluctantly furnished his home address as, C/O Mrs. M. Oswald, 3124 West Fifth Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I wrote this in my address book.

6. At no time did Lee Harvey Oswald indicate that he was actually planning or attempting to defect or go to Russia. There was no indication that Oswald had any Communist leanings.

I did notice that Oswald spoke with the Chief Engineer who was then aboard the S.S. Marion Lykes. The Chief Engineer indicated to me that he felt that Oswald was a smart boy.

7. This was the last I ever saw or heard from Lee Harvey Oswald.

Signed this 27th day of June 1964.

(S) Mrs. George B. Church, Jr.,
Mrs. GEORGE B. CHURCH, Jr.

AFFIDAVIT OF BILLY JOE LORD

The following affidavit was executed by Billy Joe Lord on June 26, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Travis, ss_:

I, Billy Joe Lord, being duly sworn say:

1. I am an Airman Third Class in the United States Air Force, and I am in the 340th Bomb Wing, Combat Defense Squadron at Bergstrom Air Force Base, Texas. I am 22 years old and my parents live at Midland, Texas.

2. After graduating from Midland High School in 1959, with the financial assistance of my parents, I made plans to continue my education in France. During August, 1959, I made an application for a passport, and on or about September 15, 1959, I departed Midland, Texas via train for New Orleans, Louisiana, arriving there about September 17, 1959. I spent the next three days touring the city of New Orleans and making several trips to the ticket office of the Lykes Lines. The cost of passage aboard the ship S.S. Marion Lykes amounted to slightly more than $200. I registered and stayed in the LaSalle Hotel on Canal Street, which was near the city library. I visited the library several times during this stay in the city. During this period I did not know Lee Harvey Oswald.

3. On September 20, 1959, I boarded the freighter S.S. Marion Lykes at New Orleans. Upon boarding the ship, I was shown to my room, and when I got there, Lee Harvey Oswald was already there and moving in. We were to share this room. I had never before seen nor heard of Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald and I shared this cabin for the duration of the trip to France which was fourteen days.

4. In our first conversation, Oswald said that he was recently discharged from the Marines and that he had worked in some technical field while in the Marines. He indicated that he was somewhat bitter about the fact that his mother had to work in a drugstore in Fort Worth, Texas, and was having a difficult time. He also said that he would probably return to the United States to work. He gave no indication of his ultimate destination, although he said he was going to travel around in Europe and possibly attend school in Switzerland if he had sufficient funds. Also in this first conversation, we discussed religion. I do not know why we discussed religion except that possibly he noticed that I had a bible. Oswald maintained that he could not see how I could believe in God in view of the fact that science had disproved the existence of God, and that there was only matter.

5. After the first day, I hardly conversed with Oswald at all. Oswald was not outgoing and neither was I. We just were not very friendly.

6. Besides Oswald and myself, there were two other passengers aboard the ship. They were a retired U.S. Army Colonel and his wife, Colonel and Mrs. George B. Church, Jr. All four of the passengers generally ate their meals together in the ships officer's mess. Oswald ate most of his meals with us. I do not recall Colonel Church and his wife associating very much with Lee Harvey Oswald.

7. I shared a closet with Oswald, but I did not notice anything out of the ordinary among Oswald's possessions. He did show me either his military identification card or his passport.

8. Oswald did not indicate that he might defect to Russia. To the best of my knowledge, Oswald did not receive any correspondence or communications while aboard the ship, nor did he associate with any of the ship's crew. Oswald never mentioned any contacts or friends in Europe.

9. Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be a normal, healthy individual, mentally alert, but extremely cynical in his general attitude.

On October 5, 1959, our ship arrived in France, and I disembarked from the ship. I never saw or heard from him again. It is my recollection that he departed from the ship subsequent to my departure. I had written my mother about all the passengers. When Oswald defected, she sent me a newspaper clipping about it.

10. Oswald spent a great deal of his time during the trip on the deck. I do not recall him doing any reading. I do recall, however, that there was a radio speaker which received programs from Europe and that Oswald and Colonel Church seemed to understand a little bit of the foreign language that came over on the speaker. I thought it was German, but I am not sure.

11. I attended the Institute of French Studies at the City of Tours, Province of Touraine, France, from October, 1959 to February, 1962 intermittently while auditing courses at the University of Poitires, Tours, France, and at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France. I returned to the United States aboard the French ship, Liberty, in June, 1960. I went to France again in February of 1961 for further education, and returned to the United States in February of 1962.

Signed this 26th day of June 1964.

(S) Billy Joe Lord,
BILLY JOE LORD.

AFFIDAVIT OF ALEXANDER KLEINLERER

The following affidavit was executed by Alexander Kleinlerer on June 16, 1964.

AFFIDAVIT

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

STATE OF TEXAS, _County of Tarrant, ss_:

Alexander Kleinlerer of 3542 Kent Street, Fort Worth, Texas, being duly sworn, says:

1. My name is Alexander Kleinlerer and I do now reside and for several years last pass have resided at the above address.

2. I am and have for several years been a foreign representative of Loma Industries, a plastics production company, located at 3000 West Pafford Street, Fort Worth, Texas. I am 41 years of age and single. I was born in Poland of Polish parents both of whom died in German concentration camps during World War II. During the War I lost all members of my family, not only my immediate family, but my relatives as well, other than a sister in Paris, France who is still alive and a cousin who once resided in Russia but who now lives in Poland. The area in Poland in which I and my family and relatives resided was overrun by the German Army. I was confined in Buchenwald concentration camp until 1945 when I was liberated by General Patton's forces. I immediately moved to Czechoslovakia and then to France. In May of 1956, I journeyed from France to the United States and found employment with Loma Industries. I returned to France as a foreign representative for that company in November of 1957 and remained there until June of 1961 when I returned to the United States. In due course thereafter I became a naturalized citizen of the United States in May 1963.

3. I speak a number of European languages well. As a result I have become acquainted with numerous foreign language speaking individuals in the Fort Worth-Dallas area. These include, insofar as the Oswald incident is concerned, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, Mr. and Mrs. George deMohrenschildt, Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia Dymitruk, Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. and Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin.

4. During 1962, I was enamoured of and was courting Mrs. Elena Hall who was then divorced from her husband John. I first become acquainted with Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald on a Sunday morning in the fore part of September 1962. I was working in Mrs. Hall's garage at 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth, Texas, building wooden baffles for stereo speakers. George Bouhe, a valued friend of mine, drove up in his automobile accompanied by Oswald, Marina and their infant child. I was introduced to Oswald and to Marina. Oswald somewhat stiffly acknowledged the introduction but was laconic and uncommunicative thereafter. They had come to inquire of Mrs. Hall about dental problems of Marina's. I have a fairly distinct recollection that Mrs. Anna Meller also accompanied the group on this occasion. Mrs. Hall is a dental technician employed by the Patterson Dental Laboratory in Fort Worth. The group was seeking Mrs. Hall's help as to where a low cost dentist or clinic could be found where they might take Marina for dental care, having in mind that the Oswalds were in straitened financial circumstances. I do not recall what the result of this conversation was in that connection as I did not accompany the group when they went into Mrs. Hall's home.

5. Thereafter during September, while the Oswalds still resided on Mercedes Street near the Montgomery Ward store, I visited there with Mrs. Hall on two occasions. The reason for the earliest of these additional occasions was that Mrs. Hall and George Bouhe had asked me to inquire among the girls in my office for dresses and other wearing apparel for Marina. I collected some sweaters, skirts and a dress or two. Mrs. Hall also inquired among her friends and collected some things. We put these together in one package and Mrs. Hall and I drove to the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street to deliver the package. We were shocked to find that the Oswald child had no baby crib or bed but was kept on the floor in the bedroom either in a suitcase or between two suitcases.

6. Within a few days we returned to the Oswalds with a baby bed that Mrs. Hall had obtained from some friend. We purchased a mattress for the baby bed and delivered these items to the Oswalds at the Mercedes Street apartment.

7. There was another occasion when I was at the Mercedes Street apartment. George Bouhe had called me and asked me to meet him there. This had nothing to do with the Oswalds. George Bouhe and I are good friends and he was calling to say that he was going to be in Fort Worth at the Oswalds and asked me to drop by so we could have a friendly visit. On this occasion I saw the Oswalds briefly. I recall that Anna Meller came with George Bouhe and there was an older lady whose name I do not now recall. I remember that Oswald and Marina were seated at the dining table eating. We were sitting there talking with Mr. George Bouhe when suddenly Oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. He rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though Marina was a mere chattel, proceeded to vigourously reprimand her. It was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. We were all embarrassed and shocked.

8. Mrs. Hall was injured in an automobile accident in Fort Worth the evening of October 18, 1962. Marina and the child were residing in Mrs. Hall's home at this time. They had come to Mrs. Hall's home earlier in the month because Oswald had, we understood, lost his job and it had been agreed among Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the others that Oswald would go to Dallas to seek employment and Marina would stay with Mrs. Hall. Mrs. Hall was released from the hospital in the latter part of October, I think around October 26th. She spent a few days at home and on October 30, 1962, a date which I have checked from a receipt that I have, she left Fort Worth for Garden City, New York, to visit with friends. While away on this trip she was reunited with and remarried her former husband John Hall. My recollection is that they returned to Fort Worth about the 11th or 12th of November 1962, and in any event by the 15th. While Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and while she was visiting in New York, I frequently called at the Hall home during my lunch period (usually about 1:00 p.m.), at the request of Mrs. Hall, to inquire of Marina's needs and her welfare and to see that matters about the house were all right. I reported regularly to Mrs. Hall what my impressions were.

9. During the periods Mrs. Hall was in the hospital and later in New York, Oswald came to the Hall home on several occasions on Friday night and stayed until late Sunday afternoon or early Sunday evening when he returned by bus to Dallas. Mrs. Hall's home is approximately 12 to 14 miles from the business district of Fort Worth, and it is approximately 30 to 32 miles from the Fort Worth business district to the business district of Dallas. A trip from Mrs. Hall's home to Dallas involves in travel some 40 or more miles.

10. I distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances under which Marina left Mrs. Hall's and was taken by Oswald and George deMohrenschildt's daughter Alexandra and her husband Gary Taylor to Dallas to live. It was on a Sunday while Mrs. Hall was in New York. My recollection is that it was in the fore part of November on the Sunday preceding the return of Mr. and Mrs. Hall from New York. On the preceding Friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. It was Marina. She said that she was going to leave the Halls and go to Dallas to live with Oswald. At this point Oswald interrupted and spoke on the telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to move into Dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by the next day. I came by the Halls the next day, which was Saturday, in the morning. Marina and Oswald were there. I entered the house. Marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.

11. The arrangements for moving the following day were discussed. I was to be there to supervise the removal of the Oswald paraphernalia and to lock up the Hall residence.

12. When I arrived at the Hall's residence on that Sunday morning, Marina and George deMohrenschildt's daughter, Alexandra Taylor, were there. Oswald and Gary Taylor, the husband of Alexandra, George deMohrenschildt's daughter, were off somewhere in Fort Worth seeking to rent a "U-Haul-It" automobile trailer into which the Oswald paraphernalia was to be placed. Most of the Oswald goods that had been stored in Mrs. Hall's garage and which had been in her home were already packed in preparation for placing in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. Oswald and Gary Taylor returned in due course, in Taylor's automobile with the trailer hooked on behind. Taylor among other occupations, was a taxi driver in Dallas at this time.

13. I had met both Alexandra and Gary Taylor at the Hall's on a prior occasion. This was a weekday evening after Mrs. Hall returned from the hospital. They had been eating dinner at Mrs. Hall's home. I came to visit Mrs. Hall and was surprised to see them all at the table. Of course I left immediately since I hadn't been invited to the dinner. The Taylors brought Oswald with them in Taylor's car so that Oswald could visit Marina.

14. I supervised the placing of the Oswald goods and wearing apparel in the "U-Haul-It" trailer. There were several instances in which I had to intervene when Oswald picked up some of Mrs. Hall's things to place in the trailer. I could not say whether this was deliberate or inadvertent, except that there were several instances. My recollection is that Oswald and Taylor had obtained the trailer at a service station in Fort Worth. It seems to me it was a place somewhere on Barry Street. In due course the loading was completed. They got into Taylor's automobile and drove off. I understood from the telephone conversation on Friday night and my visit with the Oswalds at the Halls on Saturday, and the conversations that took place on Sunday, that the Oswalds were moving into an apartment in Dallas which Oswald had very recently rented. This was the last time I ever saw either of the Oswalds or had any contact with them. I had arrived at Mrs. Hall's around 1:00 p.m. and they departed around 3:30 p.m.

15. I recall that while Marina was staying at the Halls, and either before Mrs. Hall went to the hospital, or during the four or five days she was at home before departing for New York, that Oswald telephoned to speak with Marina. This was on a Saturday evening.

16. I recall the time that Oswald reported he had lost his job at Leslie Welding Company. It was the first week-end in October 1962. My recollection is that it was agreed that Marina would come to Mrs. Hall's house to stay while Oswald looked for a job in Dallas. I am uncertain whether Marina was brought directly to the Halls from the Mercedes Street apartment. There may have been something about Marina being taken to the Taylors' apartment in Dallas for a few days so that she could have some dental care at the Baylor University Clinic in Dallas. I do recall clearly that Mrs. Hall had a pickup truck which was owned by the dental laboratory where she was employed. Mrs. Hall had permission to drive to and from work with the pickup truck. It was agreed that the Oswald household goods and other paraphernalia would be moved to the Halls in the pickup truck. It may well be that Marina went directly to the Taylors; that the Oswald household goods and paraphernalia was taken to the Halls; and that Marina came to the Halls when her dental care at Baylor Clinic was completed. I understand Marina's appointments were on October 8th, 10th and 15th. It is my recollection, however, that the Oswald goods were packed in the trailer by John Hall and Mrs. Hall and were taken to the Halls. It may be that Oswald helped. My impression is that this was done on a Monday, but since, as I have now been advised, Oswald apparently worked at Leslie Welding Company on Monday, October 8th, that the transfer of the Oswald goods did not take place until Monday night after Oswald returned from his last working day at Leslie Welding Company. It was at Mrs. Hall's invitation that Marina went to live at Mrs. Hall's house.

17. In any event, I recall that nothing was heard from Oswald for a number of days after Marina came to Mrs. Halls to live. I assumed he was in Dallas, and knowing that the distance between Dallas and Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth was great, I thought relatively nothing of this, except that I thought that he should have telephoned.

18. On a good many of the occasions that I dropped by the Hall residence during my luncheon hour, I found that Marina had not yet awakened. I would have to arouse her by ringing the door bell and banging on the front door. I would find the household unkept, unwashed dishes in the sink or on the eating table, and her's and the baby's clothing strewn about the room. Marina would come to the door in a wrap-around, her hair disheveled and her eyes heavy with the effect of many hours of sleep. She would make some excuses about sleeping late.

On other occasions I was frequently in the Hall home when Mrs. Hall was home in the evenings and on weekends. I noticed that Marina did nothing to help Mrs. Hall in the house. Mrs. Hall often complained to me that Marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would not do anything around the house to help. I observed on many occasions that Marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly.

19. I was concerned and suspicious about Oswald from the outset. I could not understand how he had been able to go to Russia and return with seeming ease, especially since he had attempted to defect and because I was aware that my cousin had not been able to get his wife and child out of Russia although he now lives in Poland. Also, I was alarmed from the outset by Oswald's talk. Other friends told me he frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in clinics you always had to pay something.

20. I saw magazines about Russia in the Oswald apartment on Mercedes Street. Some were in the Russian language and some were in English. There were also newspapers in the Russian language.

21. I have always been very grateful to America. Americans have been very kind to me and I think a good deal of this country. It upset me when Oswald would say things against the United States. I did not argue with him because he appeared to me to be dangerous in his mind and I was frightened. I once said to him that, unlike him, I had come to this country for freedom and not to look for trouble by criticizing the United States; that while I did not have much money, I did have freedom and opportunity and Americans were kind to me.

22. I and Mrs. Hall, Mrs. Meller, George Bouhe, and the others were disturbed that Oswald flatly declined to make any effort to teach Marina English. He said he wanted to keep his Russian sharpened up. We thought this was very selfish of him. He would speak to other members of our group in Russian. I refused to discuss anything with him in Russian. I told him that if he wanted to talk with me he would have to talk to me in English; that he was born and raised in this country and his national tongue was English and he should be proud to speak English. I never answered him at any time in Russian. I thought at times he was bent on making Marina dissatisfied with the United States and also that he did not want her to have friends.

23. He treated Marina very poorly. He belittled her and was boorish to her in our presence. He talked to her and ordered her around just as though she were a mere chattel. He was never polite or tender to her. I feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. The only occasion I saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion I have mentioned but I heard repeatedly from Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe, and others that Oswald was physically mistreating her.

24. Oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and Marina. He never once offered to contribute in even a small way to Mrs. Hall or any of the others with whom Marina stayed. This was often a topic of conversation among us. We did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. He did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt.

25. I expressed to Mrs. Hall and to my friend George Bouhe, and to others that I thought that they were only worsening things because the Oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. He acted as though the world owed him a living. I had the impression from time to time that Marina was pretending and acting.

26. Oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his troops. My overall impression of Oswald was that he was angry with the whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what he wanted; that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself.

27. Mrs. Hall told me on several occasions that Marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of Oswald and that when she got to know a little more English she intended to leave him. Oswald did not care who was present as far as his boorish attitude toward Marina was concerned. It seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything.

28. Anna Meller, Mrs. Hall, George Bouhe and the deMohrenschildts, and all that group had pity for Marina and her child. None of us cared for Oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the United States, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and because of his treatment of Marina. Although the men were sometimes skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate about Marina and felt that she needed help not only because of their straitened financial circumstances, but because of Oswald's mistreatment of her.

29. I recall that when I saw the newspaper item in the Fort Worth paper about Oswald returning from Russia with his Russian wife, I spoke to Max Clark and his wife. They are good friends and fine people, and he is a lawyer. We were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the Oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew Oswald and Marina were coming into this country, and if they did not do anything about it, it was probably all right to have contact with them. I am afraid I never became completely reassured.

30. Marina never had any money, not even pennies. Oswald would not give any money to her. Consequently, when she lived with Mrs. Hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly dependent upon their host. She could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts.

Signed this 16th day of June 1964.

(S) Alexander Kleinlerer,
ALEXANDER KLEINLERER.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. DONALD GIBSON

The testimony of Mrs. Donald Gibson was taken at 11 a.m., on May 28, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel, and Richard M. Mosk, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be sworn?

Mrs. Gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?