Chapter XLIII: Section 2: A III f (8)

As a representative of the Armament Ministry, I was assigned to labor assignment. Later on I heard that this Jaegerstab was under the management of Speer and Milch and that Saur was the manager of the Jaegerstab. Later on there were conferences almost daily, first at the Air Ministry and later on at a barracks at the Tempelhof, near Berlin. They dealt, first of all, with the production of the fighters and with all the questions in connection with the fighters and also with labor assignment.

Q. Who directed these conferences?

A. At the beginning Milch participated almost regularly in those sessions and he was the one that actually led or presided over the conferences; formally, that is, Mr. Saur was the speaker most of the time. Mr. Speer very seldom, according to my recollection perhaps three of four times, participated in those sessions, which on those particular days were transferred to the Armament Ministry.

Q. You just said that Milch at the beginning had the formal leadership. From what time on did that cease?

A. After the transfer into the Armament Ministry, or rather, into the Caserne at Tempelhof—I don’t remember the date—Milch did not participate as regularly as he did before. At those conferences, after the transfer of the fighter staff into the Armament Ministry, he only participated once or never.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, concerning the conferences of the staff, there were always verbatim records taken. Is that known to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Apart from those minutes, were any other minutes taken?

A. Yes. An extract of the verbatim record—I want to call it a “result record”—was compiled and these records were sent to all of the offices which were interested in those conferences. Those verbatim records which were taken down by stenographers during the session, according to my knowledge, were sent only to Mr. Speer, and of course they remained with both Saur and Milch. In other words, very few copies were made.

Q. Were these verbatim records ever controlled?

A. No, I don’t think so. I don’t believe that the large records were read or checked by someone else.

Q. Can one say then that the decisions of the Jaegerstab were contained in the records?

A. Not only the decisions but also the more important deliberations that took place. However, when decisions were made, then they were included in the result records.

Q. During these conferences did it ever occur that the participants were not always present?

A. That happened very often because the sessions lasted for a long time and it happened many times that I, for instance, was called out and ordered to take care of my business, at least by telephone, and the members of the Jaegerstab themselves did not always participate in the conferences, but later on—that is, from May on—they had representatives or deputies replace them.

Q. Did those sessions often result in individual discussions?

A. That happened once in a while, particularly when technical questions were discussed where very few experts could say something.

Q. I shall now proceed to the labor assignment within the Jaegerstab. How did the Jaegerstab deal with questions of labor assignment?

A. Along with all the production discussions of other programs, labor assignment questions were discussed at the sessions of the Jaegerstab. I had the task, concerning these labor assignment questions, to pass them through my office chief and so far as the tasks I had with the Jaegerstab overlapped my other duties and tasks with other organizations; in other words, if you want to know exactly or if you want to have a detailed description of what my tasks were in general—

Q. I want to know what you had to do with the labor assignment of the Jaegerstab and what was your main task there; otherwise, we will be here about an hour or so.

A. Among other things, we had the task, on the basis of the reports of the various factories which came over the Armament Inspectorates to me, to write up a proposal how those red slips were to be distributed on each individual production. In the Jaegerstab, I also had the task to distribute those red slips in such a way that the most important factories would get the necessary number of red slips. The red slips were orders to the labor assignment offices or agencies of Speer; in other words, to the Armament Inspectorates and to the armament commandos, and were given from Sauckel to his labor assignment agencies which were to provide preferentially the necessary amount of workers on the basis of those red slips. I furthermore had the task to take care of transfers of laborers who already were in the armament industry by giving respective orders to my agency and requesting Sauckel to carry out the transfer. Since in the fighter production, the question, in the first place, concerned skilled workers only; transfers of this kind were carried out. Skilled workers were no longer assigned to us by Sauckel in 1944. My main activity, therefore, concerned transfers from one of the industries to the other, and as regards the Jaegerstab, in transfers from the destroyed bomber factories or from other aircraft types to the fighter factories which were working full time.

I finally had the task to deal with deliveries of armament to the Wehrmacht soldiers and I had to take care of those. In 1944, through several actions, many laborers were withdrawn from the armament industry and delivered to the army. That concerned particularly skilled workers. It was my task then, together with those responsible for the production, to take care of the distribution in such a manner that the armament industry be hampered as little as possible in their production.

Q. Is it known to you that Milch tried to see to it that no one from the fighter factories had to go to the Wehrmacht?

A. Yes, from all the factories, and particularly from the fighter factories, they tried to send as few laborers as possible to the army. At the beginning, in the early days of the Jaegerstab—in other words, in the months of March and April, approximately—we tried to relieve the fighter program from delivering laborers to the Wehrmacht. Later on, this was very difficult. I know, however, that Milch tried his very best to give as few people as possible to the Wehrmacht from Jaegerstab production, that is, of the Jaegerstab factories.

Q. Witness, you just said that, concerning the request for assignment of workers, you made suggestions to Sauckel. In these meetings there is a statement by Saur that says, “We take care of the labor assignment.” What is correct now? Did you just request them or did the Jaegerstab actually take care of the assignment?

A. The Jaegerstab was not able to give orders to offices which did not belong to the Speer Ministry or to the Air Ministry. In Jaegerstab, very often Saur and perhaps Milch—I can’t remember, concerning Milch—used such words. In reality, however, it was quite different. I appeared at Sauckel’s and I was ordered to tell him about the creation of the Jaegerstab and its importance concerning the fighter production, with the request that when labor was distributed, the Jaegerstab production should be considered in first place. An order to Sauckel was never given by me and I am sure that Sauckel would certainly not have followed my request, particularly as he always and repeatedly stressed the point that he was independent and was responsible only to the leader of the Four Year Plan and Hitler.

Q. When Saur made such a statement, “We take care of the labor assignment,” why do you think he said that?

A. Well, once in a while such strong words were used. I never took this statement very seriously and I didn’t react to it because I knew exactly that nothing would happen afterwards, and nothing really happened. I was sure that the labor assignment should have been taken care of by the Jaegerstab, but it was impossible to take care of that for one single production. Everyone who had something to do with labor assignment could understand that.

Q. Witness, you just spoke concerning boasting remarks. Is it known to you that Milch often used such strongly exaggerated boasting remarks during these meetings?

A. I don’t remember single statements made by Milch but I am sure that they occurred. What I wanted to say now is that it appeared to me that Milch very often, particularly concerning the industry and his own generals, wanted to boast in order to play the strong man. I believe, however, that these statements did not always make the impression he wished to create.

Q. Do you mean to say that they were not taken seriously?

A. Well, not quite seriously, anyway.

Q. Were you present during the conference of the Jaegerstab where Milch made a long speech to the air force engineers and the quartermaster chiefs?

A. I was there part of the time. I remember now. That was the session which took place in the Air Ministry—there were 100 people there at the time, and I have to remind you of the fact that I wasn’t present during all those conferences.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, the prosecution introduced a document during the trial where Goering gives Himmler a fighter group in exchange for the use of concentration camp inmates which were put at the disposal of the air force armament. Do you know anything about that?

A. What fighter group do you mean?

Q. I mean a squadron—a whole squadron was placed at the disposal of the SS, and Goering wanted to have concentration camp inmates from the SS. Do you remember anything about that? It was on the 15th of February 1944.

A. I can’t remember that exactly. Goering, that is the Luftwaffe, put a great number of soldiers at his disposal for immediate production. They got their leave. But if there ever was such an exchange of concentration camp inmates, I do not know today anymore. It could be possible; however, I can’t tell for sure.

Q. Witness, is it known to you that in the Jaegerstab they were often transferred from the construction sector of the Plenipotentiary for chemistry?

A. No. In any case, I don’t know that this was done to a considerable extent. It is possible that it also was said during my presence that the Plenipotentiary for chemical industry had too many workers in the construction sector and a few of them had to be transferred; lots of complaints were made. However, I can’t remember anything concrete.

Q. Witness, can you remember that Milch tried to be able to free certain engineers from Hitler who were working in Berchtesgaden?

A. I believe I can remember that. The question of engineers was discussed very often because this was a big bottleneck in the construction sector. I remember also that, concerning the construction works in Berchtesgaden, it was discussed in this connection and that one hoped to be able to get not only engineers but other skilled workers from the construction works carried out in Berchtesgaden for Hitler.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, is it known to you that the use of concentration camp inmates was carried out in closed groups?

A. Yes, as far as the SS used concentration camp inmates, outside of their own factories, this was obviously only done in larger groups of about 500 to 1,000.

Q. Is it possible that during constructions a few miners or engineers were concentration camp inmates?

A. When the rest of the workers were not concentration camp inmates, then, according to the regulations of the SS, personally, I don’t believe that there were certain concentration camp inmates in there, and I don’t know of any such cases. I know that the SS always required that the concentration camp inmates be taken in large numbers and that they should be assigned in groups and billeted in groups.

Q. In other words, is it possible that the SS also used people of their own as miners, apart from those concentration camp inmates?

A. I couldn’t tell you, because I did not know the situation with the SS. However, that is possible.

* * * * *

Q. The question was: If the SS ever used miners from their own ranks and if they trained them?

A. No. I don’t know anything about that either.

Q. Do you know if the SS had a miners’ school?

A. No. I don’t know that either. I never heard of any miners’ school. The miners learned by experience.

* * * * *

[Tr. pp. 743-759]

Q. What do you know about labor utilization of English and American prisoners of war? That is to say, Americans and British who were captured in Germany?

A. In 1944, that is to say, in my time, no new prisoners of war were used because we didn’t capture any more. So far as I know, British and American prisoners of war were not used in armament factories. Repeatedly, proposals in this direction were made also in the case of noncoms and officers. In the case of officers—it was Polish officers, if I recall, no change in the regulations was made, so far as I recall. Instructions were transmitted to the OKW, but I do not know if anything came of them.

Q. I come now to your two sworn affidavits of 19 November 1946; Prosecution Exhibit 76 is a sworn affidavit of yours of that date. NOKW-266, dated 19 November, * * *.

* * * * *

Q. Did you know that in 1944, in order to protect the aircraft industry, underground and protected factories were built?

A. Yes.

Q. You know who gave the original order for this?

A. So far as I know, the order for this relocation of industries in subterranean plants was given by the Jaegerstab itself. I was not competent in this matter, but naturally I took part in the discussion of the Jaegerstab and heard it there. I heard that it was decided that a bombed-out factory should be relocated to a different place which the Jaegerstab would determine.

Q. That’s no answer to my question. Witness, I asked: Who gave the original order for the construction of these subterranean factories? Do you know that?

A. If I may repeat; you want to know who ordered in the first place that these plants should be transferred to subterranean factories? That I do not know.

Q. Do you know Herr Kammler?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know from whom he received the order to construct these special subterranean factories?

A. Here again I do not know precisely who gave him the original order. In any event, at the first beginning of the Jaegerstab, Kammler became a member and was commissioned to undertake the construction of subterranean buildings for Jaegerstab protection. The Jaegerstab pointed out to him individual objectives and he reported from time to time how many square meters were now ready. But who first originally gave these orders to Kammler, whether it was Himmler or Hitler or some agreement or something like that, I don’t know.

Q. Was Kammler commissioned into the Jaegerstab because of an order of Himmler or because of some special order elsewhere?

A. I am not able to say. I assume that Himmler also gave him an order. The individual orders, what he was to build, he received from the Jaegerstab.

* * * * *

Q. Did Kammler, within the Jaegerstab, represent Himmler?

A. I do not know his powers or his functions and I cannot say. He was in the construction sector. That I know, but Himmler had charge of more things than construction.

* * * * *

PRESIDING JUDGE TOMS: Will you try to answer these questions as simply and briefly as you can? Were Russian prisoners of war used in the armament industry?

WITNESS SCHMELTER: In the armaments plant Russian prisoners of war were also employed. At what they were employed, I do not know, since they were already there when I came and I did not myself inspect the plants.

Q. Did you ever see Russian prisoners of war either manufacturing or transporting munitions of war?

A. In plants and in transports? No. Neither in plants nor in transports did I see Russian prisoners of war.

Q. That question is perfectly clear and you understand it?

A. I shall repeat it. I was asked whether these prisoners of war worked—whether I saw them in plants or in transport.

Q. That’s right.

A. And I answered in the negative.

Q. Were Russian prisoners of war used in the decentralization of the Luftwaffe after the heavy bombings?

A. Not that I know of. So far as I know, after the heavy bombings Russian prisoners of war were no longer available. They had already been assigned elsewhere. I do know that after the heavy bombings, that is, in the year 1944, new Russian prisoners of war were not used in armaments or in the bombed out factories. It is, of course, possible that the local labor offices used Russian prisoners of war for this purpose, but we in the central offices knew nothing of this.

Q. Will you answer the same questions as to Polish prisoners of war?

A. So far as I know, Polish prisoners of war consisted solely of officers. Only officers were available. The others had been freed. The officers, however, in contradiction to many wishes that were expressed, were not used. At least if they were, I know nothing of it.

Q. Will you answer the same questions as to Hungarian Jews?

A. Hungarian Jews, among other things, were used in the construction of fighters—fighter planes. Female Hungarian Jews were also used in the actual construction of fighter planes.

Q. Were they voluntary workers?

A. No. Those were inmates of concentration camps, prisoners at the disposal of the SS.

Q. So the Hungarian Jews who were employed in the manufacture of fighter planes were forced to work in that connection?

A. The Hungarian Jews, so far as I recall, were offered by the SS to be employed in armament production. At first there were 1,000 of them or 500 who were employed. Then a number of plants said that they wanted such workers and they were then allotted by the SS to these plants and there they were obliged to work.

Q. Then the SS, which was one branch of the German military establishment simply dealt out the Hungarian Jews to anybody who needed them?

A. No. The Hungarian Jews, like all concentration camp inmates, were housed in camps that were either in or near the plants and which were constructed by the SS. They were then taken to work every day, and after the work they were again brought back by the SS to the camps. Also, the supervision of the work, for security reasons, was carried out by the SS. So far as the technical side of it was concerned, it was carried out by the representatives of the plant.

Q. Of course you don’t claim they were paid for their work?

A. That I do not know. I only know the general regulations concerning concentration camp prisoners, and I know them in part. I know that these prisoners, at least toward the end, also received some sort of wages. What the payment was, I do not know. I do know that the plant had to give the SS a certain amount for each prisoner, but what the prisoner himself received, I do not know.

Q. Do you know whether these Hungarian Jews worked through any contract with a foreign government, as was the case in France?

A. Let me repeat the question whether Hungarian Jews worked on the basis of an agreement with a foreign power—foreign government. Was that the question?

Q. Yes.

A. Not that I know of.

Q. I have no other questions. One more question please. You said that you know that Russian prisoners of war were working in the armament factories but you didn’t know what kind of work they were doing.

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see them in any of the factories?

A. No.

Q. What do you think they were doing?

A. I guess some of them were engaged in construction. So far as skilled workers were concerned they were certainly working at tasks that they were qualified to do. So far as they were unskilled workers they might have been doing almost anything.

Q. If they were working in munitions factories they were doing something to manufacture munitions, were they not?

A. If they worked in munitions factories then they must, of course, have had something to do with manufacturing munitions. Even if they only worked in the courtyard, or something like that, they still had something to do with the manufacture of munitions.

* * * * *

JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, did you ever know of any prisoners of war, especially Russians, being used to man antiaircraft guns?

A. In the construction or in the use of the antiaircraft?

Q. In the use of antiaircraft.

A. Yes, I have heard of that. I heard that Russian prisoners of war were used to man antiaircraft guns of that sort.

Q. Do you have any idea how many were used for that purpose?

A. No, I don’t.

Q. Did you ever see them being used for that purpose?

A. No.

Q. On what fronts were they used?

A. I believe they were used on the home front, not on the actual battle front, but that is simply my opinion.

Q. Against American planes, British planes, and Russian planes?

A. They shot at whatever planes were over Germany.

* * * * *

DR. BERGOLD: Witness, you spoke of female Jews. When were these female Jews employed?

A. I do not know the precise date. It was the summer of 1944. In my estimation, it must have been May.

Q. Let me show you Document NOKW-359, Prosecution Exhibit 75. It is the next to the last document of the prosecution, Stenographic Minutes of the Jaegerstab Meeting of 27 June 1944. You said: “I have a few more points. Up until now 12,000 female concentration camp internees, Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter is now in order. The SS has agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses in batches of 500. Thus the smaller firms, too, will be in a better position to employ these concentration camp Jewesses. I request that these people should be ordered in batches of 500.”

Is this the point from when onward these females were used?

A. Yes. It must have been about this time. The difficulty was the following: The SS demanded that the females should be delivered in batches of thousands only. Most factories could not use such a large number of females. Consequently, the SS was asked if it could not deliver them in smaller groups. That is the reason.

Q. Witness, is there a difference between the concept of “Ruestungsfabrik”, which means armament factory, and “Munitionsfabrik”, which means a munitions factory? Is there a difference in Germany?

A. “Ruestungsfabrik” took care of all sorts of armament production, materials, finishing up the deliveries and so on and so forth. “Munitionsfabrik” is the narrower concept and contents itself with the manufacture of munitions only.

Q. Did the “Munitionsfabrik” belong inside the concept of “Luftruestung”, air armament?

A. So far as the “Luftruestung” is concerned, they did, yes. The limitation of these concepts was not, however, uniform. Unfortunately, we had very few uniform concepts. They were often misused.

Q. Were factories that made sheet metal and so on, armament factories? Did they fall under the concept of armaments?

A. They did, yes.

DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.

* * * * *

_CROSS-EXAMINATION_

MR. DENNEY: In one of these interrogations, on 30 December 1946, you were asked what the Jaegerstab did to bring workers from Hungary into Germany; do you recall that?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you recall that you made reference to certain trips of the Jaegerstab to Hungary?

A. Yes.

Q. You made this statement: “The Jaegerstab, during its existence, made at least a total of 10 to 12 trips”?

A. Yes.

* * * * *

Q. All right. You were asked this question: “Who was in charge of these trips?” And your answer was: “So far as I remember, it was Milch. Milch participated in most trips of the Jaegerstab.”

A. In most of them, yes.

Q. In the same interrogation on 30 December, the record indicates that you made this statement: “I know about 100,000 workers from Hungary; however, these were Jews who were allocated to construction. I know nothing about 8,000 workers who evidently were skilled workers, intended for the fighter production program.”

A. Yes.

Q. You were then asked: “Is it known to you that these 100,000 Jews were used by Todt in the interests of the Jaegerstab?” and you made the following answer: “Yes, that is known to me.”

A. Yes.

Q. You were interrogated on 24 January and asked this question: “Do you know whether the Luftwaffe, in the Luftwaffe industry, used concentration camp prisoners, not in the building program, but for production?” and your answer was: “I don’t know. I don’t think so, except for women. The SS once offered us a lot of women. The difficulty was that, at first, at least 1,000 and later 500 were to be employed. Various firms got women after that, and I think that Heinkel, in Oranienburg, used concentration camp prisoners, not only women, but all the inmates.”

A. Yes.

Q. The answer was yes, if your Honor please. And Heinkel was an airplane factory, was it not, producing the Heinkel plane?

A. Yes.

Q. On November 15, of last year, you were asked if you knew that Himmler used concentration camp inmates for the underground buildings of the Jaegerstab, and your answer: “Yes. You mean the finished buildings, do you not?” And then you were asked: “The underground ones, the completion of the existing caverns or tunnels, or the like, where concentration camp inmates were employed?” and your answer: “Yes.”

A. Yes.

Q. And you were also asked: “Were these constructions built in the interest of the Luftwaffe?” Your answer: “These new constructions? Yes.”

A. Yes.

Q. The next question: “Exclusively in the interest of the Luftwaffe? And did the orders for the new constructions come from the Jaegerstab?” Answer: “Whether other constructions were also built there? Probably, yes.” Question: “I am only interested in the Luftwaffe.” Answer: “Also for the Luftwaffe. I do not know whether for others. I would not like to pin myself down.”

A. Yes.

Q. Later you were asked: “Do you know that prisoners of war were at all employed in air armament?” and you stated: “Yes, I should like to say, the armament plants. The air armament also employed prisoners of war in its plants.”

A. Yes.

* * * * *

Q. In reply to a question: “What was Field Marshal Milch’s position in the Jaegerstab?” you stated, “There were two chairmen in the Jaegerstab, Speer and Milch. In the first session, or rather in most of the sessions, Milch participated personally; Speer did not. Speer was present only in exceptional cases. In his position, Saur, who was at the same time manager, initiated the contact with the rest of the armament industry. Milch was Chief of the Jaegerstab, besides Speer.”

A. Yes.

Q. In the same interrogation of 15 November you made the following statement: “Assignment of labor was involved in every question including every question of production.”

A. Yes.

Q. On 26 November you made the following statement when you were interrogated: “Mobilization of manpower as a matter which is closely connected with production was very much discussed. Everybody had a word to say, had a request for something and they suggested or said I could do better, etc.”

A. Yes.

* * * * *

_REDIRECT EXAMINATION_

DR. BERGOLD: Witness, as to the trip to Hungary, were you present when the committee went to Hungary?

A. No, I traveled only as far as Prague and returned.

Q. Do you know the purpose of this trip to Hungary?

A. Not precisely. I know that there was a question of production to take place in Hungary, but precise information I do not have.

Q. Do you know that there was a definite contract with Hungary?

A. I heard about that subsequently.

Q. Did you then hear that this trip had the purpose of bringing Hungarian Jews to Germany?

A. No.

Q. Thank you. The prosecutor spoke to you of 100,000 Jews. Did you know that these were to be used by Mr. Dorsch?

A. Yes.

Q. And, as far as the tasks that he had, mainly for the construction of bombproof factories?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether the Jaegerstab ordered these 100,000 Jews or whether somebody else did?

A. The employment of these 100,000 Jews in this construction organization took place on Hitler’s orders. I, myself, was not present at this discussion. Dorsch, however, was present and told me that Hitler had ordered—had said Himmler had 100,000 Jews for bombproof factories and was to make them available.

Q. Do you know whether and in what number and when these Jews arrived to carry out this construction work?

A. I do not know precisely the dates. It was in the summer of 1944. Nor do I know whether all of them arrived. Once I concerned myself with the question regarding the guarding of these people. At that time the SS did not have enough guard personnel and Hitler ordered Keitel to provide 10,000 soldiers which were to be withdrawn from the eastern front and to make them available to the SS so that they, the SS, would have the necessary guard personnel. Thereafter, I heard nothing further about the matter and assumed that the Jews for the most part were employed. I deduced this from the fact that I otherwise should have heard of it probably.

Q. I discussed just yesterday with you whether these buildings were ordered by the Jaegerstab. I do not need to return to that question. Were these constructions used exclusively by the Jaegerstab or for other advantages, such as armored cars?

A. Originally they were exclusively planned for fighter construction but I do recall that, as time went on, there were also discussions of using them for other manufacture, for instance, tanks, and this construction was to take place in these buildings. Since, however, I had nothing to do with this professionally, I can only report on this from hearsay. In other words, I know nothing precisely.

Q. The prosecutor quoted to you a statement of yours from an interrogation; I shall ask you now did you make the statement in the interrogation that Milch was responsible in air armament to seek out workers individually?

A. I don’t know how I should understand the word “seek out”; if you mean that he went to foreign countries and searched for them personally, then of course that is wrong. I did state in that interrogation that during my activity in the Jaegerstab in March 1944 no individual actions in foreign countries were carried out by Milch or the Jaegerstab. The manpower was provided by Sauckel exclusively, or to the extent that they were prisoners by the SS, or prisoners of war by the Wehrmacht.

Q. And then they were transferred, as you said yesterday, to other sectors?

A. Yes.

Q. You also said in this interrogation that in most of the meetings Milch was present.

A. At the beginning, I said.

DR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions.

EXTRACTS OF TESTIMONY OF DEFENSE WITNESS XAVER DORSCH[133]

_DIRECT EXAMINATION_

[Tr. p. 1361-1379]

DR. BERGOLD: Please state to the Court your first and last name?

WITNESS DORSCH: Xaver Dorsch.

Q. When were you born?

A. 28 December 1899.

Q. What was your last position in the German Reich?

A. I was Deputy Chief of the Todt Organization, in the Speer Ministry.

Q. On the 28th of December 1946 you signed an affidavit?

A. Yes, sir.

DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, this is Document NOKW-447, Prosecution Exhibit 74.

Q. Witness, you made the following statement:

“As deputy of Minister Speer in his capacity as Chief of the Todt Organization, I received from Hitler, at the end of April 1944, an order to construct with the Todt Organization six bombproof fighter factories, of which two should have priority.” Can you tell me about the history of this construction?

A. Yes, but I must go into detail.

Q. Proceed.

A. Approximately eight months before this date, I made a suggestion to Minister Speer about how bombproof fighter factories above ground could be built, in this way, not only to secure manufacture, but also so that they would be more secure against bomb damage while being built.

The source was that the Todt Organization in France was doing a similar construction job as a launching site for V-2 bombs. Speer told me that I should take the plans with me on my next visit to the Fuehrer’s Headquarters, and two weeks later I was with Speer, visiting Hitler, and after other matters had been discussed, and before going, Speer mentioned this matter and Hitler said: “We must absolutely achieve bombproof aircraft factories because there is danger that transportation might be attacked, and then we cannot make up the time we have lost.” Hitler wanted large-size, big scale units, in which planes and fighters could be protected from the beginning to the end, because he saw a danger in the fact that transportation could be attacked and interrupted, and then the different parts, if they were made in various factories, could not be assembled.

He said that he imagined the matter roughly as follows: In narrow mountain valleys in Saxonian Switzerland, for example, caves could be dug which would provide these bombproof factory installations. Then Speer said, “Dorsch or the Todt Organization has another suggestion.” Speer said that, and I then submitted to him my plans for the special Todt Organization construction, which, as I said, had already been built in France, and I also pointed out to him that such factories, even as they were being built, were relatively safe against bomb attack.

This was roughly eight months before this date in April on which this commission of which I spoke in my affidavit was given to me. Hitler said to me that it was a matter of indifference to him according to what system these things were built, but that it was important to him that something really serious should be done.

On the next day there was a discussion on the same theme with Goering. Speer’s representative Dethleffsen, as Plenipotentiary for construction matters, and the leader of the main committee for construction, Gaertner, were present. I had to explain again the thought behind this special construction which I was proposing. Goering was enthusiastic and said that that was the solution and that the Todt Organization should begin immediately with that construction. Thereupon Speer said, “The Todt Organization cannot build these factories because it builds only outside the Reich, with the exception of the Ruhr district, and in the Reich itself the Main Committee for Construction should carry out the construction,” and for that reason, he had called the two gentlemen I mentioned above. Goering also said that it was indifferent to him who built the factories, that the important thing was that they should be built soon.

In April of 1944, I was visiting Speer near Meran when a call came that I should immediately go to Hitler. Speer asked me if I had any idea what was afoot, but I did not. I immediately went to Berchtesgaden. There Hitler asked me, “What has become of your fighter production?” I told him that I did not know precisely, because in the Reich the Todt Organization did not do the constructing but another organization. He was greatly excited and said roughly, that he had heard enough about this other organization, that he did not want it, and he demanded that the Todt Organization should take over that construction immediately.

Then the plans were fetched overnight from Berlin. I explained the whole system to him once more. I told him that I could only carry out this construction if it were given priority above all other construction as far as workers, machines, building materials, trucks, and so on—whatever is needed in construction—were concerned. I was given assurances that that priority would be given me, and I then took over this construction project.

I was able to assure myself that the Hauptausschuss Bau—the Main Committee for Construction—which had been in charge before I took over had begun constructions at three locations. On one of these we immediately stopped work, because both architecturally and, as the Jaegerstab told me, technically the factory was no good.

Q. Witness, you then said that the wish to build these bombproof fighter factories by the Todt Organization was communicated to you by the Jaegerstab. What do you know about that personally?

A. I know the following: The Jaegerstab, as far as the entire work of the Plenipotentiary for construction was concerned, was not satisfied with the work. Saur complained continuously about how work dragged on and asked me repeatedly to step in and do something. He called me to his meetings in the Jaegerstab and asked me to develop further plans. I was called up continuously by other gentlemen. I remember Major Dr. Krohmer, who also asked me to step in, and again and again I had to say that that would not do because, I said the Todt Organization did not carry out construction in the Reich. I was pressed continuously by the Jaegerstab, because it was the organization that would benefit from these constructions.

Q. Do you know whether Milch went in that direction too, or only Saur?

A. That I cannot say. I did not speak about that to him myself. I did speak with Saur and a few other gentlemen—I believe with Schlempp who was later representative of the Todt Organization in the Jaegerstab.

Q. When was that first pressure on the part of Saur? Was that before March of 1944?

A. Yes. That was even earlier, but I cannot say precisely. It might have been in February even.

Q. Do you know whether Saur visited the Fuehrer on this matter?

A. I was not present, but I assumed that it must have been so. I cannot prove it, however.

Q. So. This afternoon you told me what you thought Milch’s function was in the Jaegerstab. You used a rather striking expression. Would you like to repeat it here?

A. I called him “the breakfast director”. I ask the defendant to pardon the expression. He shouldn’t hold it against me.

Q. What do you mean by this “breakfast director”?

A. Well, it is sort of difficult for me to tell that.

Q. Milch won’t be angry.

A. Well, I only saw him at a Jaegerstab meeting once, when he invited me and when he asked for the support of the Todt Organization. He explained to me the general situation. He told me what his worries and troubles were, but the real work, the whole functioning of the thing, I don’t believe he concerned himself with. That is why I used the expression “breakfast director,” but perhaps that was a little exaggerated.

Q. I quite understand. After the end of April 1944, when you were commissioned with these construction matters, what did you do?

A. As I told Hitler very exactly, I took Todt Organization units from France and from the Atlantic Wall.

Q. How many were there?

A. 2,000 or 3,000—I cannot remember.

Q. Your affidavit says 10,000.

A. No, that is incorrect. That cannot have been the number in France. The second time that I went to the Plenipotentiary General for chemistry, Prof. Krauch, and told him of the serious situation, and I finally brought him to the point of giving me 15,000 workers from his department.

Q. What workers were those?

A. First of all, in the Baltic States—that was a Todt Organization itself—I took away most of the German workers, and took some elsewhere as additional workers, engineers, experts of one sort or another, machinists. Then came the attack on Leuna on the 10th or 12th of May 1944. That was on the occasion of the first attack on Leuna. I had a talk with Hitler at that time. He said, “This cannot be tolerated—that, at the very moment when we are so in need of oil, workers are taken away from Leuna”.

I then answered him that, first of all, I had undertaken this measure before the air attack, and secondly, it was not a question of cutting down on oil production, but of oil capacity. Hitler took over and said, “No, that cannot be”. Then Speer said, “If we don’t get the workers, we can’t do the building”. Hitler said, “Quiet down, you will get 50,000 Italians,” and then I said, “I don’t believe that”, and I said that for the following reasons: We, the Todt Organization, had such workers from Italy for the construction program Riese in Silesia, but we did not do this via Sauckel but by applying to Italian firms to take over construction commissions in Germany, and then they automatically brought their workers, their directors and architects, and so on, with them particularly after we had assured them that we with our organization—that is to say, with the Todt Organization in Italy—would take care of paying wages, paying for the hospitalization fees, insurance, and so on, but at the moment when workers were fetched by Sauckel, I understood clearly that workers such as we needed would not be provided in any considerable numbers. At any rate, I told Hitler, “I do not believe in these Italian workers, and I won’t believe in them until they have crossed the Brenner Pass.” He then said to me, “You can believe in them because tomorrow Mussolini is signing an agreement that 1,000,000 workers will come to Germany.”

* * * If I may mention it, it is also worthy of mention, that in January, the beginning of January, I was at a conference with Hitler, or rather, I did not take part in it, but I knew of it. There, a new worker contingent was demanded, and in this conference Hitler himself named the number of 250,000 workers for the construction; for aircraft construction. In other words, it wasn’t Speer but Hitler who demanded those workers, especially, and it is possible—that, at any rate, is the way I construe it now—that he was thinking of these fighter plants. Then I asked Hitler to permit me to use 10,000 Todt Organization workers from Southern Russia. I must mention that here, because I did that as Speer’s representative with Hitler. I could not have said to Speer that he should give me these 10,000 workers. I had to do that through Hitler, because the commanders in chief, in this case the commander in chief of the army group in Southern Russia, were in charge of these people and they had to be released by them. Thereupon these 10,000 workers got under way toward Germany. However, they unfortunately arrived very slowly and some of them never got to the fighter plant, but were taken over by Speer to make ball bearings in Wellen, in Thuringia, and then, when no workers came, the plants were to be built by Hungarian Jews. I do not know precisely when it was, but I do remember an armaments conference in Linz—I guess it was about the middle of June or maybe later, but I can’t say for sure—and it was then that the first ones began to arrive.

Q. Were they approved by Hitler?

A. Yes.

Q. Witness, when you of the Todt Organization fetched Italians on your own initiative, were they volunteers or were they more or less forced labor?

A. Precisely in Italy, we had a remarkable achievement because as a matter of principle we turned to Italian firms, gave them commissions and they provided the workers. I believe I can say that the Todt Organization was known for taking model care of its workers. For instance, in Norway and Holland, the Dutch or Norwegian Todt worker received higher wages than the German Todt worker who was working right beside him. I could make extensive statements on that if I wanted to, or if I were given the opportunity.

Q. But that is not an answer to my question, whether they were volunteers or forced labor?

A. They were not forced. They were brought by their firms.

Q. Through the Italian firms?

A. Yes, that was the intention from the very beginning, so that the Italian firms could provide their trained and expert personnel to us, and, in this way, they were simply volunteers; they did much better work than if they were forced.

DR. BERGOLD: No further questions.

_CROSS-EXAMINATION_

MR. KING: Witness, you stated that Milch was only present at a few of the early meetings of the Jaegerstab. May I ask you—

A. What I said refers only to those meetings of the Jaegerstab at which I was present and that was perhaps four or five.

Q. Now, you said, in your affidavit, which has been submitted as a prosecution exhibit referred to by Dr. Bergold, that you received an order for the construction of fighter factories at the end of April 1944?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall being present at a conference at Berchtesgaden with Goering, among others, on the 19th of April 1944?

A. I cannot say whether that was the precise date, but I did take part in some such conference.

Q. Do you recall who was present at that conference?

A. Yes. Goering was there, Milch was there, the others I’m not sure about. Saur—I’m not sure he was there. I knew for sure that Milch and Goering were present, but as to the others I no longer recall.

Q. Do you recall what was discussed at this conference?

A. The construction of fighter plants was discussed then, and, if I remember, Goering pointed out that the Todt Organization was to receive all sorts of support but I do not remember the details at the moment.

Q. And a few days later, on 21 April 1944, you received the order from Hitler to build the six fighter plants?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall that possible sources of labor were discussed at this meeting? That is, labor for the construction of the fighter factories?

A. I should like to assume that, but I do not remember precisely. Probably all sorts of conditions and possibilities were discussed, but I cannot answer this precisely.

Q. You were discussing a large-scale construction; you must have known where this labor was to come from. Can you tell me what possible sources were discussed at that meeting?

A. I do not know whether or not that question was discussed at this conference. I assume that it was, but that was such a long time ago that it is impossible for me to recall these details. But I was clear in my own mind about that fact. That we needed so and so many workers was of course obvious. I did make the demand that this construction program should receive top priority and I stated previously that I wanted primarily German workers, which was then done, and in the sector of the Plenipotentiary General for chemistry I wanted to take some workers; that was the way in Germany that you got workers. Later, when we of the Todt Organization took over the construction program in Germany, we saw that a large number of construction offices had so little manpower that they had to stop production and there again we found workers. The whole situation was somewhat unclear because when we took over building these fighter factories, the entire construction was turned over to the Todt Organization, and no one could take the responsibility for such important constructions unless he could control the direction of the whole construction program, but, with the best will in the world, I can’t recall the details. There were so many conferences, one followed the other so rapidly, I do not any longer recall.

Q. Who was your representative at meetings of the Jaegerstab?

A. Schlempp, first of all; even before I was commissioned with this task, he was the technical adviser or expert on construction. Saur asked me at that time to regard him as the liaison man between the Todt Organization and the Jaegerstab. Then, about the middle of June, Schlempp became group leader of the unit in Prague, for which reason I provided one of my best men, namely, Knipping and I used him in what had previously been Schlempp’s capacity.

Q. Do you recall that Schlempp, and later Knipping, reported on the progress of it to the Jaegerstab?

A. I am convinced that they did, because that was their job.

* * * * *

Q. Now can you give me percentagewise the breakdown of this labor by groups, that is, prisoners of war labor, foreign labor, concentration camp labor, German labor?

A. That I could only do with the most general estimate, with vagueness. In the case of Kaufering, there were perhaps sixty percent from the concentration camps; however, prisoners of war, as far as I know, were not there at all. The rest must have been Germans. In Muehldorf, where the second factory was, the breakdown was roughly the same, but I really cannot say. I visited each one of these factories only twice. Because of the transportation situation of the Rhine bridges and the hydrogenation plant situation, I did not have the time to visit them.

Q. Now did you obtain any of this labor for the construction project? Do you recall obtaining any of this from Schmelter?

A. I take it that Hitler himself had approved these workers. Our request went to Schmelter, and he was working his own men in that Todt Organization, and in the Jaegerstab, and it was his job to settle the details when they should come, and what they should be paid, and such matters. That was Schmelter’s job, and Schmelter was told that this is a technical staff, and he knew that Hitler had approved the workers, and so it was his job to take care of the details, and to inform the Einsatzgruppe what it should do. I did not carry much of these things in detail after that.

Q. Now do you recall how large a construction was at Kaufering? I am speaking both at Kaufering I and Kaufering II?

A. You mean the technical construction?

Q. Yes.

A. There was one main hall in Kaufering I, three hundred meters long, ninety meters wide, with six stories. Kaufering II conducted production later, but everything was concentrated in Kaufering I.

Q. Do you recall how much of this construction was completed?

A. I should think three-fourths. At the last time I visited this construction shortly before the collapse, the machines were being set in on one side of the building, and that is as far as it went.

Q. And to whom was this plant allocated?

A. That I cannot say. In my opinion the Messerschmitt, but I must be careful in what I say here, because in the last week before the collapse there were negotiations with the armament staff. I cannot remember what that situation was in Kaufering, but in Muehldorf there was constant talk of putting Buna in there. That changed continuously, dependent on the war situation. Once Speer wanted to set up a steel foundry in the fighter factory in the Rhineland, which was later changed.

Q. Please answer the question. Now in these inspections at Kaufering, do you recall any Luftwaffe representatives who inspected these construction sites?

A. That I don’t know. I cannot say. A colonel of the Luftwaffe was there but in his capacity as representative of the armament commando or of an armament office.

Q. Now getting back to this meeting of 19 April 1944, do you recall that Speer was present there?

A. No.

Q. How were your relations with Speer at that time?

A. They were tense. Speer did not regard the Todt Organization as a sort of construction organization. To make a statement, I should have to go into great detail on this subject.

Q. I think that suffices. Now with regard to the recruitment of these fifty thousand Italians, which you discussed with Dr. Bergold, do you recall who was to handle the recruitment of those Italians for work in the Reich?

A. To be sure that I do not make any false statement, is it your concern who recruited the fifty thousand Italians that Hitler approved of?

Q. My concern is through what channel were these Italians that were promised Hitler by Mussolini, through what channels were they recruited?

A. That was to be taken care of by Sauckel, but through the Todt Organization, who had their office in Italy apply to Italian firms ultimately, and that was done through the Todt Organization office in Italy.

Q. Now with regard to these Italians, do you know what provision was made for the guarding of those that were to arrive, that is, en route?