Chapter XLVI: Section 2: A III f (11)

A. The Belgians were explicit on that point. When I told Count Welczeck that, after all, the Foreign Office was concerned here; that it would not serve any useful purpose, he replied, “That will not be read higher up. If you are the soldier coming to Hitler, he will listen to you, for, after all, soldiers are your trump cards at the moment. Also we have confidence in you, confidence that you will at least be able to see Hitler; and he also has the confidence that you personally will do your best in this respect.”

Q. Witness, at that time did others also approach you, other diplomatic representatives, and lend you their confidence?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have the confidence of Mr. Messersmith?

A. Oh, yes, Mr. Messersmith; but that was before all this. I think that really took place in 1933, ’34 or perhaps in ’35. He visited me three times. When he was the Consul General of the United States, he had some difficulties with some American subsidiary companies in Germany. One was Standard Oil, as far as I recall. I asked him why he wanted to see me since that was not my business. Then he said that he had full confidence that I would look after his interests. He had been told by other diplomatic representatives that I was able to help him.

Q. All right. Now, Witness, we come to the steps you took after your report to Hitler, the steps you took later on. I ask you to tell about that briefly.

A. Perhaps I’ll do that. It was after my visit to England.

Q. Very well, go ahead.

A. On 11 October 1937, the Italian Ambassador came to see me. That was Professor Attolico. He told me that the Italians had got very excited at my Paris visit. It was believed that I had gone to make arrangements there which were in contradiction to German-Italian agreements. I calmed him down at once without giving him too many details; but he asked me to pay a brief visit to Italy before going to England. We had been asked to go to England on the 17th of October. An air force exhibition in Milan was the occasion; and I was asked to open that exhibition on the 12th of May. That, of course, was headlined by the Italian papers. Attolico came and saw me after this and expressed his gratitude. He said that Delbos had put a trap in front of me.

PRESIDING JUDGE TOMS: The witness gives the date as the 12th of May. Is that what he meant for the exhibition in Milan?

A. 12 October.

PRESIDING JUDGE TOMS: What year?

A. In October 1937. I went to Italy and then to England. The visit had been arranged by the Royal Air Force as a reply to the visit paid to us by the Royal Air Force in January 1937. At that time figures were exchanged between us on planned armaments, that is to say the figures concerning bombers, fighters, and so forth, by agreement with Goering and Hitler. Here again the intention existed to know exactly what the other was doing. The other point was the intention to come to terms on all these questions.

The visit to England lasted until 25 October. England had quite a lot to show. The air force was very well organized and had first-rate personnel. The visits were very cordial. Political conversations of an official nature were not held; but unofficially we spent an evening in a club, in a very small circle of ten people, perhaps less than ten. Lord Swinton, who was then Minister of Aviation, took part, as well as the leader of the opposition, Mr. Churchill, and Lord [Rt. Hon.] Amery, Secretary of State for India, and from the British Air Force, Lord Trenchard.

We had brought General Stumpff and of course General Udet. This was more in the nature of a personal contact and political questions were not touched upon. The other hosts had told me before, “Today you meet your first and second best enemy. Don’t be confused by this; but if there is an attack, hit back.” That is what happened; but it was a very jolly evening.

Before we took off again, that is to say on 24 October, Mr. Eden, the Foreign Secretary, rang me up. He said that he had been busy all the time before, but could I see him now. I said that I should be delighted but that a program had been arranged for us by the RAF to visit an airfield tomorrow. I asked that if the program could be changed, would he please contact the RAF. He told me that perhaps that would be a bit too complicated and asked if perhaps I could see him later on. I could be with him in two hours and thirty minutes since that was how long my aircraft took from Berlin to London at that time. Unfortunately I never saw Mr. Eden.

I reported about that trip to England on 2 November. The report took over two hours. Hitler was much more accessible than when I talked to him about France. I reported particularly my talk with Mr. Churchill and drew his attention to the seriousness which was expressed. Hitler immediately interrupted me. He said, “Please do not worry at all; never in my life will I do anything against Britain. The basis of my whole policy is collaboration with Britain.” These words calmed me considerably. I immediately explained to him once more that the way to come to terms with England would be by Brussels and Paris, and I explained why.

I saw von Neurath on 11 October on the trip to France; and on 28 October I reported to him on my trip to England in great detail. All I could tell him at the time was what Hitler had said or had failed to say about France. Neurath again was very impressed with me for having worked for him in this sense. I was in agreement with him that without any further invitations by him or Hitler I must not take any further steps.

Then on 1 November 1937 I went and saw Field Marshal von Blomberg who at that time was Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, that is to say, Goering’s military superior. I reported to him. Blomberg in all things entirely agreed with me, as had Neurath. Goering at that time did not have enough time to see me. I asked on several occasions to be allowed to report to him on these very important matters; but this did not happen because he simply declined.

Q. Witness, I think we can leave this field now. Will you only explain briefly to the Tribunal whether you received foreign delegations, and of which nations, and what happened at those occasions?

A. I said before that the British had visited us in January 1937. After that I had perhaps five or six visits from Englishmen. The French paid a return visit in 1938. On that occasion again we returned the very cordial welcome which the French had given to us. We showed the French our troops and factories. Yesterday, reference was made by the witness Vorwald[140] to this, who said that we only showed what the troops had at their disposal at the time and what expressly had been permitted to be shown by Goering, after a request had been made by the competent department of the General Staff. I know that somebody has alleged that Hitler at the end of the war said I had shown secret methods to foreign visitors and damaged Germany thereby. That is a slanderous statement. It was alleged that I had shown radar instruments, and at that time we didn’t have any radar at all.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, were you ever Goering’s deputy in this capacity, and how long?

A. Until 1937 I was his deputy, and all offices in the Luftwaffe which were subordinate to him were also subordinate to me. This applied to the execution of orders. From 1937 onwards I was his deputy only in my own sector, and this automatically as Chief of the General Staff in his field, which applies also to the Generalluftzeugmeister. In any case it was within my capacity to deputize for Goering in all matters as I was the second senior officer of the Luftwaffe, and this was done only by way of rank. But Goering reserved the right to appoint a deputy in general, that is, especially always only for the Luftwaffe. This authority he did not confer upon me. Even when he was on leave he kept this right, he retained his command. I agreed with this arrangement personally.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, what was the position at the beginning when you took over the duties of GL? What measures did you take, and what was your aim?

A. I can be brief in this connection, at least in regard to the first point. General Vorwald yesterday spoke at length about it. No useful developments for the immediate future were available. No bomber aircraft of a new type was in existence, and as to mass production we stood very poorly, as I previously described to you. Painstakingly we had reorganized on 1 September, and it was only because of the extreme devotion of industry and because of the faithful service rendered by our German workers and those who helped them that it was possible to, shall we say, bring about a miracle.

The production figure in bombers was reached once more in the shortest of time, in the spring of 1942. There was not a single individual instance where our program as we had set it for ourselves was not reached. This was something extraordinary. In the case of fighters, there was a good type of fighter aircraft, or even two; namely, the Focke-Wulf and the Messerschmitt, but there were no engines for those fighters. We had to use incomplete engines to equip these aircraft, and on the strength of my experience collected in my capacity as director of the Lufthansa, I had to have tests carried out. My testing department in Rechlin was excellently staffed, the commander being an excellent pilot and technician, and it was due to their devotion that in a few months we managed to get even these new engines ready although, according to human estimate, we could not expect it. It was more through luck than intelligence that we got that.

Now that was the situation as I found it. The new organization, of course, had not been started up, and I had to collect a few new, extremely good experts. The men who were working there independently were rather downhearted for a long time. As experts they had lost any doubt in the outcome of the war, and they did not believe that it would be possible once again to start up our armament program.

The total number of aircraft in production was something in the neighborhood of 800. That included trainer aircraft, transports, liaison aircraft, such as the Storch; it even included towing aircraft which were to be used for parachutists. As far as fighters were concerned, production of those, when it was removed from under my care, had increased by only about ten percent, although ’37, ’38, ’39, ’40, ’41—four years—five years—had elapsed. The saddest fact was that among those 800 there were only 200 fighter aircraft, although both on the British front and in the East, fighter planes were necessary. The Russians had at their disposal a very large number of bombers, and even if they were an elderly type, after all, we did have to have fighters to keep them in check, and since the transport extended from the North to the South over 2,000 kilometers, a large number of fighter units had to be used in that campaign. This arm could not be supported with 200 fighters. We needed more.

The demand which I found from the General Staff, which of course made all demands and had them confirmed by Goering, amounted to a total of 360 fighters which were to be obtained in 1942. It was said yesterday that immediately I ordered a considerable increase. Several figures have been mentioned by various witnesses. Actually, these increases were not decided upon in one day. To begin with, it was to be doubled and a few days later I said, “Let’s make it 1,000; that’s a round number,” and later, in fact, there were 3,000 and later even we planned 5,000. We knew at about that time just what we had to expect from our enemies. We knew the types they had.

America, in the initial period, still published their production figures correctly subdivided according to types, and we also had an excellent intelligence, and from analyzing aircraft that had been shot down and from the numbers which were coded, and which could be deciphered by an expert right away, we could discover right to the very last number what they had produced. That was production that had been actually carried out, and the figures found in the United States were not fictitious. Industry, although with a certain amount of reticence and difficulty, but certainly afterwards quite clearly fulfilled these figures. I still know exactly that the plan ran to about 8,000 aircraft, and was achieved, and that figure included four-engine bombers. Production under Britain’s rearmament, too, was learned in detail, and I remember at the time Great Britain was either already producing 800 four-engine bombers a month or was just about to produce that number.

You could calculate from that the number, the quantity of bombs which could be brought to Germany, and regarding the function and size of the bombs, of course we knew about that too. This was, of course, the reason that previously as Inspector General I demanded that the entire force should be built to defend our home country, this being the fundamental principle of warfare, since without armaments and life at home, battles at the front were unthinkable. I shall later have to come to this question in more detail because I am probably the man who remembers this most accurately, and as long as I am still about I would like to state this clearly once again, because this is one of the most important questions which probably existed in every war. This was the biggest struggle that went on, and as I look back on it today I am surprised that I did not despair over that struggle myself.

Q. Witness, those measures which you planned, were they dictated by the thought that with the campaign against Russia the situation of Germany would become desperate?

A. As I said earlier, the war on two fronts was the stab in the back of this war as far as I was concerned, that I thought excluded victory once and for all, and the only remaining question now was just how badly fleeced we might escape from this whole affair. It was no longer possible in my opinion to end this war by force of arms. It was only possible by means of arms to attain a somewhat satisfactory final position on the strength of which political and diplomatic steps would have to take place. In order to achieve such a final position it was necessary in the first place that Germany should be protected against destruction, because once the war potential was destroyed it was immaterial whether the fronts collapsed a little earlier or a little later. They could not be held any longer. This thought, unfortunately, was not understood by our leaders, or rather they did not agree with it and turned it down and just did not come to it. The end did not come until there was hardly one stone left intact.

Q. Witness, in this connection I should like to ask you to show the correctness of your present report and to prove that from the very start you had these thoughts, and to submit to the Tribunal the remark you had made in your diary when the Russian campaign started.

A. I wrote in it, “The attack against Russia: the first day 1,800 aircraft destroyed, mostly on the ground. The Russians left them there. They didn’t expect that we would attack. They overestimated our intelligence.”

Q. What did you want to say by these words, “They overestimated our intelligence?”

A. Well, the Russians might have thought that no opponent would be so foolish and so stupid to attack them now and create a war on two fronts.

* * * * *

[March 13]

Q. Witness, do you know at what point the Central Planning Board was ordered and how did the creation of this institute come about?

A. Its creation must have taken place during the last days of March 1942. It originated from a discussion which Speer had with Hitler in the latter’s headquarters. At the time when Speer had taken over armament there was no higher authority which was acting according to clear-cut points of view when distributing raw material. Until then we had been receiving raw material through a certain department of the OKW. This department in turn had been getting it from the Four Year Plan. The OKW was distributing to the army, navy and air force but this department had no expert knowledge. Consequently the continuity of armament suffered under this. Speer quickly recognized the state of affairs and without my having previous knowledge of it he tackled this question when talking to Hitler. As a result Hitler appointed Speer as the central planner for this subject. Subsequently Speer made the request that I should take on this task together with him, since Speer had been in the armament business rather briefly and since he said I would be able to help him—at least this was the way Speer discussed the matter with me shortly afterwards; I, myself, hadn’t been at that conference. Following this, on 2 April 1942, Speer and I together went to see Goering since Speer considered that this task, which, after all, was connected with the Four Year Plan, should be discussed with Goering. Goering expressed agreement but he demanded that a representative of State Secretary Koerner, who was in official contact with the Four Year Plan should enter the Central Planning Board. I know that Speer said at this point: “It seems to me three are rather too many for this job”, and I said “Well, I am only too willing to drop out. I have enough work as it is,” and Speer interfered and said that was out of the question. Goering said: “No, it is my view that there can be three.” That is how the composition of the Central Planning Board was realized. I can anticipate at this point that very much later Minister Funk joined the Central Planning Board as a force which was done at the instance when the so-called “War Production”—and in this case we are not talking about the armament business but civilian requirements and the like—was transferred from Funk’s Ministry to Speer’s Ministry.

Q. Witness, did you, within the framework of the Central Planning Board become the armed forces’ or air forces’ representative?

A. No, right at the very beginning that had been decided upon by Hitler that, namely, that in no way was I to look after my own interest there, that is to say, the interest of the air force, that I should be above the Party. Later on there were demands from the navy, which had not known about this arrangement. They, too, wanted to have a representative in the Central Planning Board. * * *

Q. Witness, what were the actual tasks of this Central Planning Board?

A. The tasks had been communicated to me by Speer and had been confirmed through Goering. There was only distribution of raw materials to all holders of priority permits.

Q. Witness, what is what you call the “holder of a priority”?

A. Well, the armed forces are such priority holders, and within the armed forces the navy, army, and air force are holders of these priorities. The coal industry holds these priorities; the steel industry; the textile industry; the German cities and municipalities, for their municipal requirements; the power supplying industry.

Q. What about agriculture?

A. Most certainly agriculture, for agricultural machinery requires steel, requires coal, requires all sorts of things. Altogether, the forms according to which we used to distribute, and which contained the word “armament” on the left, contained on the right all the civilian purchasers, all the buyers. There were approximately 40 to 45 civilian holders of these priorities.

Q. But then what did the Central Planning Board have to do with the Four Year Plan, to which there seemed to be some sort of formal connection through Speer?

A. The Central Planning Board as such had nothing to do with the Four Year Plan; only Speer, in his capacity as Armament Minister.

Q. Did you ever report to Goering about the Central Planning Board?

A. No, with the exception of that first meeting on 2 April 1942, when the matter was reported to him. Apart from that meeting, I have never talked to him or with him about the Central Planning Board. * * *

* * * * *

Q. From whom did the Central Planning Board have instructions?

A. Directly from Hitler.

Q. Through which channels were they given?

A. Speer was with Hitler practically every week, for the reason of army supplies, or other questions, sometimes staying with Hitler for several days. On such occasions Hitler would mention his most important problems. For instance, he would mention the sequence of priorities of the various armament branches, which I explained to you yesterday. Quite automatically, through this, the approximate priority ratings were laid down. However, within the individual spheres, because of the events of the war, there were current changes: At one moment one type of tank, and then at another moment, another type of tank; or first one type of gun, and then another type of gun, would be more important. That, of course, necessitated considerable rapid changes in the allotment of raw materials. That was the case, and to an even stronger degree, in the case of munitions, so that currently, probably during every such conference which took place in his office, Hitler used to express special wishes, which of course meant orders for us.

I personally took part in such conferences on nine occasions. Occasionally Speer would take me along to have me appear on the stage there, as he would put it. However, that ceased almost completely during the last years. Anyway, I know for certain, according to my documents, that I was there nine times.

Let me add at this point that State Secretary Koerner[141] was never there. Speer did not think that it was necessary for him to be taken along, and Koerner would not impose his presence either.

Q. So that during such a meeting for the receiving of orders of the Central Planning Board, Koerner was never there?

A. No, he was not there, and he did not know about it either. He didn’t know, therefore, how strongly Hitler interfered in this sphere by giving orders.

Q. But didn’t you always report to him, either you or Speer, in the case of the meetings of Central Planning Board?

A. It might have come as an aside during the meetings; one of us might have said, usually Speer, “Hitler has given this or that order,” but that wasn’t anything very noticeable to Koerner.

Q. Was it only because of the Central Planning Board that Speer went to see Hitler?

A. No, that was one very small portion of all the other discussions, because Hitler was interested, to an extraordinary degree, in army armament, and even right down to the most minute detail. He himself decided, on his own initiative, the thickness of armor on armored fighting vehicles; he decided upon the caliber and type of gun which should be fitted to tanks; he decided the thickness and the caliber of antitank defensive armor; he himself laid down, personally, the supply rate of ammunition for every type of gun. I had an awful lot of difficulty with him over antiaircraft ammunition in that connection, since Hitler would never depart during that time, from anything which he had once laid down. He had changed a great deal from his prewar days.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, it is your opinion that even this first record of the Central Planning Board meeting is inexact and does not correspond with the true discussions which took place?

A. May I state quite basically in connection with this that I hardly ever had my deputy with me when I went to the meetings; he had a lot of other assignments and their meetings went on for several hours. Koerner’s deputy, the representative whom he brought along, always kept the minutes in the sense of observing Koerner’s meaning. Sometimes I did read through these brief minutes, and I might say that I pointed out to Koerner and Speer that facts always seemed altered considerably, but all three of us used to laugh about it, and with a flick of the wrist we used to consider it quite unimportant to have these minutes altered afterwards because all of these minutes appeared of no importance whatsoever. What was important were decisions of the Central Planning Board, and they were taken down most exactly, and they contained to my knowledge only contingencies of raw materials such as we had distributed. * * *

Q. Witness, on this occasion we might touch upon the value or lack of value of the so-called verbatim minutes, now that we have come to this subject, don’t you think? These verbatim minutes, which are very comprehensive, very voluminous, even with reference to one meeting, there was a whole volume it seems. Were they examined?

A. No. That wasn’t possible. I might have examined one or the other minutes at the beginning, and I did on one occasion try to make improvements, but I found that it contained so many mistakes that the time of reading and improving them would have amounted to fifty percent more time than the actual meeting. These meetings often went on for four or more hours or so, and I really did not have the time to sit down for something like six hours afterwards in order to put the minutes right. I know that there wasn’t any one who read through them, and I didn’t really know why these records, these verbatim records, were prepared. I thought perhaps it was a question of supervision for us, and I had no cause to state that I would not allow myself to be supervised. If you went to the pains of having one stenographer who would do nothing but write, but who was stumped by the fact that we sometimes spoke too quickly or not too clearly; a stenographer who often sat far away from the man who was speaking, or who didn’t know the name of the man who was speaking, there was bound to be a lot of muddle in that respect. He didn’t know whether the man who was sitting on the left was talking or his neighbor on the right, and one mistake after another occurred. I gave it up pretty quickly after looking through these minutes. I once asked the others whether they read through the minutes and they just laughed at me, and said that they had more and better jobs on hand, and I said so had I.

Q. Witness, you have just said that these stenographers who sat on the side could quite often not even distinguish between the speaker, whether it was he or his neighbor. What was the custom; did you remain seated while you were speaking, or did one always rise?

A. No, no, we all stayed seated; we all remained seated and the stenographer couldn’t always see who was speaking because on certain occasions a lot of people were there. If you invited one man to a meeting in Germany, then possibly he always brought his entire staff along so that he could answer all the questions; and if you invited one, sometimes fifteen or twenty showed up. I sometimes asked whether these men didn’t have anything else to do because we were not really concerned with details, only with the basic, larger points, and they used to say, well, everybody is invited.

Q. Witness, did it happen that specific orders were given to stenographers to alter certain points or omit them? So that apart from accidental mistakes, deliberate mistakes were being made?

A. I have recollections of many occasions that Speer, who used to sit next to me, would shout to the stenographer across the room and say, “Leave that out, what the Field Marshal just said.” Unfortunately, notorious before this Tribunal are the expressions and words I used, which were not always too carefully chosen. I have always said during my entire life what came to my mind at the moment, and I, as a soldier, was never taught to hide my opinion. But sometimes, in order to refreshen sometimes boring meetings, I used rather forceful language to shake up the others a bit so that they would at last come out with their true opinions, because many of the people were only there as experts on individual points. Quite often ministers were there; even in Germany a minister and a field marshal have a fairly high-ranking position; and the German is rather more inclined to speak too much than too little. Now, if they found that I too would use strong expressions on one occasion, or another, then they would loosen up a bit and they would start talking, since they felt that I had let go too. I was keen to have clarity, and that the cat wouldn’t always run around the hot porridge, because, after all, we had to know the truth and the real background.

Since Speer was much more cautious and much more courteous, never having been a soldier, I could allow myself the exhibition of freedom, and unfortunately I did.

Q. Yes, unfortunately. So that statements of that kind of yours were either stricken or they were altered?

A. That warning of Speer’s only came into force if I stated my criticism of the higher leaders too severely. If, for instance, somewhere Hitler had given assignments or orders which, to my view, were wrong, or even as to orders coming from Goering or other people, the Minister of the Interior or the Minister of the Police or some other person, then I even here would state my frank criticism amongst these people. Usually I didn’t have any other possibility to state my deviating opinion, and I had the inner urge to say it out aloud. Speer, in my interest, would have it struck out, and he told me a few times afterward, “For heaven’s sake, do be careful. They will hang you one day.” But of course he meant by the German side. Sometimes when I myself became aware of the fact that in my criticism of these high-ranking gentlemen I had gone too far, I would say to the stenographer, “Leave that out.” And on one or two or three occasions I said, “Change it. Put someone else in there as having been referred to,” because I myself discovered—mind you, I wasn’t always aware that I criticized too severely, but since Speer told me so a few times, I controlled myself a little more—that I had said too much and that it was a mistake, and so I intervened myself.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, after our discussion concerning labor questions, in connection with the decree concerning the Central Planning Board, I want you to answer my question now, whether and what powers the Central Planning Board had with reference to the Plenipotentiary General for Labor, Sauckel?

A. The Central Planning Board had no power to issue orders to Sauckel.

Q. Who was it that gave Sauckel’s orders?

A. Sauckel’s office had been formed by Hitler’s Decree. However, after that it was taken into the Four Year Plan, so that formally Sauckel was under Goering immediately. However, he received his orders from Hitler himself.

Q. As you said, the Central Planning Board had no powers toward Sauckel?

A. None whatsoever.

Q. However, don’t you know that Speer tried to win influence over Sauckel? Did that occur in his capacity as a member of the Central Planning Board, or did that occur in his capacity as Armament Minister?

A. It only occurred in his capacity as Armament Minister.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, on this occasion I would like to ask you, what then do you know about these concentration camps during the war?

A. I only knew of two concentration camps, namely, Dachau and Oranienburg. I visited Dachau personally in 1935; in other words, before the war. That was the only time that I visited a concentration camp, except for now as a prisoner of war. What there was inside the concentration camps I do not know. In 1935 there were only Germans in there; and I was very much surprised to learn after the collapse of Germany that there were also foreigners in the concentration camps. I did not know that. I am quite convinced that none of my collaborators knew about these things in the concentration camps. We had been told at the time that in these concentration camps criminals of various categories were being detained. What I saw in 1935 were habitual criminals. I thought it a very good idea that these people be not allowed to walk around freely. When we were there these people had to tell us their sentences; and there were several barriers full of people, and there the average criminal record was twenty to thirty times rape of small children. Therefore, I, being a father, believed that it was best for these people to be locked up.

However, I know that there were political people there; and I saw them, too. There my opinion differed. But I was told that those people were there on a temporary basis and would only be kept in there for a longer period of time if they actually committed active sabotage against the state. At Dachau most of the political people who were being detained there as prisoners in 1935 were members of the SA, on account of the Roehm Putsch in 1934, and that was the basis and reason for their being there.

I should like to add that I asked to be allowed to visit that concentration camp at the time, together with other officers of my branch, in other words, of the Luftwaffe, because during my meetings and conversations with foreigners, I repeatedly heard the statement, particularly from the British, “We understand your Hitler’s system very well. There was no other way for you to go. However, we do not understand your concentration camps.” That is why I decided to get some sort of a picture for myself by seeing the camp. It took a little while, but finally I got the permission to visit the concentration camp. That at the time was my only contact with the question.

Q. What was your impression of the camp? Was it clean?

A. In 1935, well, yes, at that time it looked very well. There were good barracks, absolutely waterproof, with two cots, one above the other. Our barracks always had the same system anyway; and I was the only one to get that principle in the Luftwaffe, so that there was quite a revolution among the soldiers in the army. I witnessed one of their meals. There was a good portion of food, meat, vegetables, potatoes, quite a lot of soup. The people were thus well-fed. Of course, they had to work. The work they did was not an easy task. Cleanness was noticeable. The beds had sheets with a special design on them. The entertainment of the people was taken care of. There was recreation. They had a special room where they could hold speeches. They had facilities for writing and reading. There was an excellent library there which even according to its size and contents was very interesting. I looked through the index one time. The man in charge of the library was a Gruppenfuehrer of the SA and also a concentration camp inmate. I saw the bakery, saw the butcher shop.

At that time I am sure that there were no cruelties and no inhumane equipment of any kind. Of course, I could not speak to these same individuals and ask them how they like it in there. We were allowed to talk to these people; but each of them was allowed only to say what his sentence was.

Q. Did you see what kind of work these inmates had to do?

A. That was very hard. They worked on their own equipment, I believe, not only for the camp but for all sorts of purposes and for the SS. In other words, they made furniture for themselves and for the Waffen SS for instance, cupboards, chairs, stools, tables. They also had a locksmith shop there. As far as I know they did work outside the camp as well.

I believe there were special commands for cutting down trees; there were special commands for splitting stones. However, I cannot go into detail because I inserted this visit into one day—it was in the afternoon after I had an inspection of the troops in Munich, which inspection I finished about 9:30 in the morning, and at four o’clock in the afternoon I had another inspection to carry out of the Luftwaffe, and in between I saw the camp. I myself ate or tasted the food which the German inmates had, and I thought it was very tasty, good, and sufficient.

Q. Witness, at a time following that, did you ever hear, even if only rumors, that inhumane acts were being committed in the concentration camps?

A. I cannot remember that anything had been mentioned in that connection—anything that had anything to do with the truth or that seemed like the truth. I can confirm the fact that there were quite a few rumors during the war. However, all our efforts to find where these rumors originated were not successful. We were not able to find out anything at all. I had very few connections with the SS itself.

Q. I shall come back to the SS later on. Now, Witness, as witnesses have said, you yourself saw to it that persons in concentration camps were freed, or were not committed to the concentration camps. Can one not draw the conclusion from that that you were of the opinion that it was not very good in the concentration camps; that bad things were happening there, because in general one who has committed a criminal offense is not protected from imprisonment?

A. At the beginning I was quite convinced that these concentration camps were just a temporary measure. I knew from the press that they had done the same thing in Italy under the Mussolini regime, and that then, after a few years, these institutions had been dissolved—at least that’s what I heard at the time—and, since many things were being imitated here in Germany which Mussolini’s Italy had done, I saw at that concentration camp nothing but such an imitation. That certain abuses would occur there, I could understand, because, after all, the National Socialist movement itself, in its early beginnings, was a revolutionary group. Even if it weren’t so, at least that’s what people said. I thought that these things were only the childish diseases of the new regime. However, if I ever heard anything, if anything was brought to my own personal attention, then I thought it my human duty to help. That the parents of anybody who is sent to a concentration camp or something are always convinced of his innocence, can be understood and every one of us today knows how unpleasant that is. However, certain other reasons prevailed at the time, when a family wrote: that is probably the case with one of the cases which was submitted here in an affidavit. The main reason was not that the man was a Social Democrat leader. No. He was blamed for other things, and they had to be cleared up. That is why my help took a little bit longer here, and I believe that the man was vindicated. The reproaches which they made to him, and which came from those greatest pests whom we had at the time, the informers, had to be refuted by bringing counter-evidence.

Q. That’s enough, Witness. Now such people were taken out of the camp by you. Then I’m sure that they came to see you and thanked you for it?

A. No. They didn’t do that and I did not pay too much attention to that. I told their parents and their relatives to restrain them from doing that. Maybe they wrote a letter though, sometime, but I did not do it in order to get their thanks and appreciation.

Q. Witness, didn’t you ever speak to anybody who had been released from a concentration camp and who then would have given you more details about the concentration camp?

A. I never spoke with anybody who had been released from a concentration camp—at least, not that I know of. I never spoke with anybody about his experience in a concentration camp. However, during my captivity, I heard through other people that no one else ever heard about such things either, because these people were not only prohibited from speaking, but they were also so scared that they followed that order to the very letter.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, you also visited factories, didn’t you, and you saw eastern male or female workers there, didn’t you?

A. Yes.

Q. What was your opinion about these people. Didn’t they complain to you or anything?

A. I regarded it as absolutely natural that whenever I visited a factory it was natural for me to talk to these workers, even if, in my official capacity, I had nothing to do with that question. However, as a soldier I was accustomed to act in that way. On each occasion I asked them how they were, how the food was; I looked at the people and I saw how they were clad and what kind of an impression they gave, generally speaking, whether they looked healthy, whether they looked satisfied or not. I saw Russians, and also Russian prisoners of war. Then I saw Russian female civilian workers, namely, Ukrainians. I saw Frenchmen, namely French civilian workers. There could have been prisoners of war among them, but they were wearing protective overalls over their clothes. There could have been workers from Slovakia, who considered themselves our allies, but they were very, very few. Then there were quite a few Italian workers there, those who had come on a voluntary basis at the time; those so-called “Imis” (Italians who revolted against Mussolini and were sent as prisoners of war to work in Germany) I did not see.

Q. Did eastern workers, male or female, ever complain to you concerning their work?

A. No, they did not. On the contrary, the general impression of these female Ukrainians who worked on the Junker 52’s was a very pleasing one. The girls were singing; they were well fed; they were well dressed; and they answered my questions in a nice, cheerful way. I spent about 20 minutes with these girls. There were quite a few pretty ones among them, and towards the end they flirted with me, and the girls were laughing all the time.

* * * * *

Q. Witness, I will now enter into the question of what the Central Planning Board has to do with labor questions at all?

A. The Central Planning Board had considerable difficulties connected with the question of getting raw materials. The acquisition of raw materials was originally the tasks of the Ministry of Economics and then of Speer in the Armament Ministry. On such raw materials depended the armament program.

The pacemaker among all these raw materials for the armament program was steel, but the pacemaker in turn for steel was coal or coke production. That was the biggest bottleneck, since, unfortunately, during the first years of the war the youngest and strongest age groups of miners had been called up for military service. Hitler had given us the order to develop a steel production program amounting to 3.2 million tons per month. This was to be done by Speer, and Speer had succeeded in reaching the figure of 2.6 million tons, but that was the maximum. Hitler’s armament program, however, had been based on the figure of 3.2 millions. Hitler had demanded these armament programs and the experts had calculated the amount of steel they needed for those programs.

We in the Central Planning Board discussed the possibilities of getting up to 3.2 million tons of steel, and Speer being the man for that part of the production, ordered the men from the steel manufacturers’ union to come and see him in a conference in which all steel problems, through the self-administration of the industry, were dealt with. Speer was in agreement with me, this is an aside which I must add, to the effect it was a mistake to direct industry through the state, but that industry ought to govern itself through committees of their own, coming from their own ranks, and in this sense of course, these main committees and rings which we have talked about must be understood.

These gentlemen from the Reich Association Iron stated that the possibilities existed that 3.2 million tons of steel could be manufactured, subject to certain conditions. In that connection the main prerequisite was a very much larger allocation of coke. Apart from that they wanted certain additional matters for their own production, some labor too. I remember the question of smelters which was submitted at the time. I am not an expert, but at that time I did gather that we were concerned with specialists with very considerable ability and knowledge, since otherwise a few handful of men wouldn’t have been brought into our conversation. At any rate, the main problem was coal.

Speer, anyhow, during one of our conferences, sent for the men representing the coal industry. Such a Reich Association Coal had existed for some considerable time. These people stated that there was enough coal in the mines but that human manpower was lacking to bring it up. Speer in his capacity as Armament Minister now asked them to tell him in writing what was needed. Now, these men apparently reported the figures regarding workers they had, and during those conferences with the coal representatives, always, of course with reference to the question of steel, it was stated that all efforts on the part of the Armament Ministry would have to fall down because of the labor shortage.

Speer, as he told me, mentioned this to Hitler dozens of times. It was here for the first time that various controversies arose between Speer and Sauckel.

* * * * *

The first difficulties between Speer as Armament Minister and Sauckel came to Hitler for decision. Speer said, “I’m short of workers”. Sauckel said, “I have fulfilled all your demands”, and as proof he submitted his figures. Between the figures which Speer had and those which Sauckel had, no comparison was ever possible. They were based on different suppositions. Speer was unable to obtain the basis for the figures which were at Sauckel’s disposal. In their conflict Hitler took the side of Sauckel. He wished thereby to exercise pressure on Speer to increase armament. Speer was unable to do so because he did not have the workers who had to produce coal.

This struggle went on through the years. At first Speer still hoped that Sauckel would still bring the workers into his factories until in the summer of 1943 he gave up this hope. In the Central Planning Board this, of course, was discussed, and it was also discussed how much steel we could obtain for the next three months and how we could distribute it. Always there was this contrast between the figures—Hitler wishes to have 3.2 million tons of steel; we can only distribute 2.6 millions because Speer is quite unable to produce more. The consequence was again that Hitler reproached Speer for not producing more steel although Sauckel had supplied the workers. The Central Planning Board was not responsible for the quantity of raw materials at his disposal. Speer asked me to give him my support in this question. I did so quite frequently in the meetings and also when I reported to Goering because we wished to convince Goering that we did not have the workers so that Goering would intervene with Hitler in that sense.

But I was unable to obtain Goering’s support. Goering took Hitler’s side, and he said, “The workers are there”. All that was left now was for Speer in the first line and we ourselves who wished to help him in the second line to attack Sauckel. Sauckel escaped all meetings for a long time. Sometimes he sent a representative, and in some cases he himself appeared, but he and his representative pursued the same policy by giving us a lot of figures and alleging they had fulfilled everything. Our doubts in these figures increased. Hitler became more and more impatient and the reproaches for Speer towards the end of 1943 became insufferable. Whereas Hitler supported Speer until roughly the middle of 1943 and regarded him as one of the first collaborators, the relations became much more cool later on, and I explain that mainly through this conflict. I myself had the same annoyance both with Goering and with Hitler, who maintained in opposition to me that I had been given all of the workers.

Our mood wasn’t very nice about this, obviously because although we had no personal ambition we did not wish to be blamed for something that we were not responsible for, bad armament, and to have stated that because of bad armament the war had been lost. That reproach, of course, we could foresee, and it was obvious that we fought against it with every means within our disposal. We felt ourselves to be quite innocent in this field, but in order to prove our innocence, we were missing one link in the chain, and that was to show beyond doubt that Sauckel’s figures were untrue. They were not wrong by accident; they were deliberately forged, in our opinion, because Sauckel wished to impress Hitler with his own efficiency in his ability to fulfill all the demands of Hitler in the sphere of labor.

Sauckel pursued that policy up to 4 January 1944. Only when there was a conference with Hitler on 4 January 1944, of which I was a participant, did he there say for the first time to Hitler, “Up to now I always fulfilled all your demands, my Fuehrer. Whether that will still be possible with the new demands of four million workers, I can no longer guarantee.”

Q. Witness, we will come later to this conference. Now, I ask you to go back to answer one question. Did the Central Planning Board have authority to request labor and to distribute it?

A. A clear “no” to both parts of the question. The question of labor was discussed in the Central Planning Board only in the interest of Speer because Speer needed help and knew I would always give him my support. * * *

* * * I may claim, for example, that throughout my activities, anyway shortly after the beginning of the war, that is to say, on 9 November, there were about sixty production managers of factories—no, not managers but so-called men of trust [Vertrauensmaenner], elected by workers—these men came to me and I found out they wanted to ask me to get their rations increased. At that time the whole nutrition was based upon lower rations; these people in our high industries were not entitled to the supplementary rations for heavy workers, and these people explained to me that now that there was a war, and they were forced to work in different factories from peacetime, their housing was much further away from their places of work, and in the morning and at night they had to travel longer; and, therefore, their food was insufficient. That gave me the idea to apply for a new supplementary ration and as we became very set in this question, it became possible to achieve that supplementary ration which was now for the benefit of all workers. And I have now gotten hold of documentary evidence that supplementary rations were also given to foreign workers; that was a supplementary ration for foreign workers working long hours. As this documentary evidence shows it is an affidavit actually the food of German and foreign workers was the same. But I also wanted to say that it is quite possible that there are cases where this principle was not observed, but that was against the will of the German Government if it happened.