Chapter X: Part 10

Mr. SPECTER. How about the likelihood of passing through the President and through the Governor's chest, but missing his wrist and passing into his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. That, too, is plausible, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other circumstances of this event which have been related to you, including the striking of the President's head by a third bullet, which would account in any way, under any possibility, in your view, for the fracture of the right wrist which was apparently caused by a missile?

Dr. GREGORY. May I refer to this morning's discussions?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.

Dr. GREGORY. This morning I was shown two additional missiles or portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me make those a part of the record here, and ask if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as Commission Exhibit 568 and Commission Exhibit 570.

Dr. GREGORY. These items represent distorted bits of a missile, a jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other.

These are missiles having the characteristics which I mentioned earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to create irregular wounds of entry. One of these, it seems to me, could conceivably have produced the injury which the Governor incurred in his wrist.

Mr. DULLES. In his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. And in his thigh?

Dr. GREGORY. I don't know about that, sir. It is possible. But the rather remarkably round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an intact missile.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you an exhibit heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 388, which depicts the artist's drawing of the passage of a bullet through the President's head, and I ask you, first of all, if you have had an opportunity to observe that prior to this moment?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I saw this illustration this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, if you assume that the trajectory through the President's head was represented by the path of a 6.5-mm. bullet which fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of 2,000 feet per second from the distance of approximately 160 to 230 feet, could have produced a fragment which then proceeded to strike the Governor's wrist and inflict the damage which you have heretofore described?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the President's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. I think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently.

Mr. SPECTER. Assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the vicinity of the President's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there were approximately 40 star-like fragments running on a line through the head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the Governor's right arm.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opportunity to observe the slides and films commonly referred to as the Zapruder film this morning?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I saw those this morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they shed any light on the conclusions--as to your conclusions with respect to the wounds of the Governor and what you observed in the treatment of the Governor?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes, to this extent. It seemed to me in frames marked 234, 235, and 236, Governor Connally was in a position such that a single missile entered his back, could have passed through his chest, through his right forearm, and struck his thigh. That is a possibility.

I looked at the film very carefully to see if I could relate the position of Governor Connally's right arm to the movement when the missile struck the President's head, presumably the third missile, and I think that the record will show that those are obscured to a degree that the Governor's right arm cannot be seen. In the Governor's own words, he did not realize his right arm had been injured, and he has no idea when it was struck. This is historical fact to us at the time of the initial interview with him.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask just one question? If a bullet had merely struck the Governor's arm without previously having struck anything else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? Do you follow me?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I follow you. I would doubt it on the basis of the kind of wound that the Governor has. Now the kind of wound in the Governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way.

It is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably greater magnitude.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Gregory, did I take your deposition back on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Hospital?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; you did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had an opportunity to review that deposition prior to today?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes; I have looked it over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Dr. Gregory, that you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Dr. GREGORY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Are you in agreement with the deposition as given?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. I don't think there are any--there is any need to change any of the essence of the deposition. There are a few typographical errors and word changes one might make, but the essence is essentially as I gave it.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, sir.

Senator COOPER. I would just ask this question. In your long experience of treating wounds, you said some 500 wounds caused by bullets, have you acquired, through that, knowledge of ballistics and characteristics of bullets?

Dr. GREGORY. Within a very limited sphere.

Senator COOPER. I know your testimony indicates that.

Dr. GREGORY. I have been concerned with the behavior of missiles in contact with tissues, but I am not very knowledgeable about the design of a missile nor how many grains of powder there are behind it. My concern was with the dissipation of the energy which it carries and the havoc that it wreaks when it goes off.

Senator COOPER. You derived that knowledge from your actual study of wounds and their treatment?

Dr. GREGORY. Study of wounds together with what I have read from the Army proving grounds, various centers, for exploring this kind of thing. I don't own a gun myself.

Mr. McCLOY. You are from Texas and you do not own a gun?

Dr. GREGORY. Well, sir, I went from Indiana to Texas. My father gave me a .410 shotgun, but he took it away from me shortly after he gave it to me.

The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, thank you very much.

Dr. GREGORY. Thank you very much, sir, Mr. Chief Justice.

(A short recess was taken.)

The CHAIRMAN. Governor, the Commission will come to order, please.

TESTIMONY OF GOV. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.

Governor, this Commission has met today for the purpose of taking the testimony of you and Mrs. Connally concerning the sad affair that you were part of. If you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Governor CONNALLY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, Governor. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Governor CONNALLY. John Bowden Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your official position with the State of Texas, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. I am now Governor of the State of Texas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to be in the automobile which carried President John F. Kennedy through Dallas, Tex., back on November 22, 1963.

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline briefly, please, the circumstances leading up to the President's planning a trip to Texas in November of last year?

Governor CONNALLY. You want to go back to--how far back do you want to go, a few days immediately prior to the trip or a month before, or all of the circumstances surrounding it?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip, Governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, it had been thought that he should come to Texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. There was some thought given to it during 1962. The trip kept being delayed.

Finally in the fall of 1963 it was decided that he definitely should come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting until this year, when his appearance might have more political overtones.

So I came up, I have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of October and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him what he would like to do.

He said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. About that time some thought was being given to having four fundraising dinners. His attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. He felt that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer to have one if we were going to have any. I told him this was entirely consistent with my own thoughts. We ought not to have more than one fundraising dinner. If we did, it ought to be in Austin. If we could do it, I would like for him to see and get into as many areas of the State as possible while he was there.

He, on his own, had made a commitment to go to the dinner for Congressman Albert Thomas, which was being given the night of the 21st in Houston, so shortly, really before he got there, and when I say shortly I would say 2 weeks before he came, the plans were altered a little bit in that he landed originally in San Antonio in the afternoon about 1:30 of the afternoon of the 21st. From there we went to Houston, attended the Thomas dinner that night at about 8 o'clock.

After that we flew to Fort Worth, spent the night at the Texas Hotel, had a breakfast there the next morning, and left about 10 o'clock, 10:30, for the flight over to Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. In what vehicle did you fly from Fort Worth to Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. In Air Force 1.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time did you arrive at Love Field, Tex.

Governor CONNALLY. I would say about 11:50, 12:00, shortly before noon. I believe the luncheon was planned for 12:30, and we were running on schedule. I believe it was 11:50.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us briefly the ceremonies at Love Field on the arrival of the President?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, we, as usual, the President had a receiving line there. I conducted Mrs. Kennedy through the receiving line and introduced her to about 15 or 17 people who were there as an official welcoming committee.

The President came right behind, was introduced to them, and then he and Mrs. Kennedy both went over to the railing and spoke to a number of people who were standing around, who visited for 5 or 10 minutes, and then we got into the car as we had customarily done at each of the stops, and Mrs. Connally and I got on the jump seats, and with the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the back seat, and took off for the long motorcade downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. I will now hand you a photograph which I have marked "Commission Exhibit 697," Governor Connally, and ask you if that accurately depicts the occupants of the car as you were starting that motorcade trip through Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identities of the men who are riding in the front seat of the car?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes. Roy Kellerman is on the right front. He is a Secret Service agent, and Bill--I can't remember the other's name----

Mr. SPECTER. Greer.

I hand you another photograph here, Governor, marked as "Commission Exhibit 698," and ask you if that is a picture of the President's automobile during its ride through the downtown area of Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I assume it is. This is certainly the President's automobile, and this is the precise position that each of us occupied in the ride through Dallas. It was the same position, and could be a photograph, of any number of places that we went. But I was seated in the jump seat immediately in front of him, and Mrs. Connally was seated immediately in front of Mrs. Kennedy in the jump seat, and Roy Kellerman was immediately in front of me.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I move at this time the admission into evidence of Exhibits 697 and 698?

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The items marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 697 and 698 were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. What was the relative height of the jump seats, Governor, with respect to the seat of the President and Mrs. Kennedy immediately to your rear?

Governor CONNALLY. They were somewhat lower. The back seat of that particular Lincoln limousine, which is a specially designed and built automobile, as you know, for the President of the United States, has an adjustable back seat. It can be lowered or raised. I would say the back seat was approximately 6 inches higher than the jump seats on which Mrs. Connally and I sat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know for certain whether or not the movable back seat was elevated at the time?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I could not be sure of it, although I know there were--there was a time or two when he did elevate it, and I think beyond question on most of the ride in San Antonio, Fort Worth, Houston, and Dallas, it was elevated. For a while--the reason I know is--I sat on the back seat with him during part of the ride, particularly in San Antonio, not in Dallas, but in San Antonio. The wind was blowing, and we were traveling fairly fast, and Mrs. Kennedy preferred to sit on the jump seat, and I was sitting on the back seat part of the time, and the seat was elevated, and I think it was on substantially all the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the portion elevated, that where only the President sat?

Governor CONNALLY. No; the entire back seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way the size and reaction of the crowd on the motorcade route, if you would, please, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. When we got into Dallas, there was quite a large crowd at the airport to greet their President, I would say several thousand people.

Part way downtown, in the thinly populated areas of Dallas, where we traveled, the crowds were not thick and were somewhat restrained in their reaction. By restrained, I mean they were not wildly enthusiastic, but they were grown people. There was a mature crowd as we went through some of the residential areas. They applauded and they were obviously very friendly in their conduct.

But as we, of course, approached downtown, the downtown area of Dallas, going down the main street, the crowds were tremendous. They were stacked from the curb and even outside the curb, back against the back walls. It was a huge crowd. I would estimate there were 250,000 people that had lined the streets that day as we went down.

The further you went the more enthusiastic the response was, and the reception. It was a tremendous reception, to the point where just as we turned on Houston Street off of Main, and turned on Houston, down by the courthouse, Mrs. Connally remarked to the President, "Well, Mr. President, you can't say there aren't some people in Dallas who love you." And the President replied, "That is very obvious," or words to that effect.

So I would say the reception that he got in Dallas was equal to, if not more, enthusiastic than those he had received in Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other conversations which stand out in your mind on the portion of the motorcade trip through Dallas itself?

Governor CONNALLY. No; actually we had more or less desultory conversation as we rode along. The crowds were thick all the way down on both sides, and all of us were, particularly the President and Mrs. Kennedy were, acknowledging the crowds. They would turn frequently, smiling, waving to the people, and the opportunity for conversation was limited. So there was no particularly significant conversation or conversations which took place. It was, as I say, pretty desultory conversation.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the automobile stop at any point during this procession?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it did. There were at least two occasions on which the automobile stopped in Dallas and, perhaps, a third. There was one little girl, I believe it was, who was carrying a sign saying, "Mr. President, will you please stop and shake hands with me," or some that was the import of the sign, and he just told the driver to stop, and he did stop and shook hands, and, of course, he was immediately mobbed by a bunch of youngsters, and the Secret Service men from the car following us had to immediately come up and wedge themselves in between the crowd and the car to keep them back away from the automobile, and it was a very short stop.

At another point along the route, a Sister, a Catholic nun, was there, obviously from a Catholic school, with a bunch of little children, and he stopped and spoke to her and to the children; and I think there was one other stop on the way downtown, but I don't recall the precise occasion. But I know there were two, but I think there was still another one.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other events prior to the time of the shooting itself which stand out in your mind on the motorcade trip through Dallas?

Governor CONNALLY. No; not that have any particular significance.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the comment which Mrs. Connally had made to President Kennedy which you just described, where on the motor trip was that comment made, if you recall?

Governor CONNALLY. This was just before we turned on Elm Street, after we turned off of Main.

Mr. SPECTER. Onto Houston?

Governor CONNALLY. Onto Houston, right by the courthouse before we turned left onto Elm Street, almost at the end of the motorcade, and almost, I would say, perhaps a minute before the fatal shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd at that juncture of the motorcade, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. At that particular juncture, when she made this remark, the crowd was still very thick and very enthusiastic. It began to thin immediately after we turned onto Elm Street. We could look ahead and see that the crowd was beginning to thin along the banks, just east, I guess of the overpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difficulty in hearing such a conversational comment?

Governor CONNALLY. No, no; we could talk without any, and hear very clearly, without any difficulty, without any particular strain. We didn't do it again because in trying to carry on a conversation it would be apparent to those who were the spectators on the sidewalk, and we didn't want to leave the impression we were not interested in them, and so we just didn't carry on a conversation, but we could do so without any trouble.

Mr. SPECTER. As the automobile turned left onto Elm from Houston, what did occur there, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described?

Governor CONNALLY. A very, very brief span of time. Again my trend of thought just happened to be, I suppose along this line, I immediately thought that this--that I had been shot. I knew it when I just looked down and I was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. These were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that I took, and I knew I had been hit, and I immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and, in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest, that I had probably been fatally hit.

So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.

I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----

Mr. SPECTER. Nellie is Mrs. Connally?

Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry. Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She just kept telling me I was going to be all right.

After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.

At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I hand you a photograph, marked Commission Exhibit 699, which is an overhead shot of Dealey Plaza depicting the intersection of Houston and Elm, and ask you if you would take a look at that photograph and mark for us, if you would, with one of the red pencils at your right, the position of the President's automobile as nearly as you can where it was at the time the shooting first started.

Governor CONNALLY. I would say it would be about where this truck is here. It looks like a truck. I would say about in that neighborhood.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you place your initials, Governor, by the mark that you made there?

Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?

Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know. 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your impression then as to the source of the shot?

Governor CONNALLY. From back over my right shoulder which, again, was where immediately when I heard the first shot I identified the sound as coming back over my right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. At an elevation?

Governor CONNALLY. At an elevation. I would have guessed at an elevation.

Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, that is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an impression as to the source of the third shot?

Governor CONNALLY. The same. I would say the same.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast was the President's automobile proceeding at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. I would guess between 20 and 22 miles an hour, and it is a guess because I didn't look at the speedometer, but I would say in that range.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy make any statement during the time of the shooting or immediately prior thereto?

Governor CONNALLY. He never uttered a sound at all that I heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."

Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I have got his brains in my hand."

Mr. SPECTER. Did that constitute everything that she said at that time?

Governor CONNALLY. That is all I heard her say.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything further at this time?

Governor CONNALLY. All she said to me was, after I was hit when she pulled me over in her lap, she said, "Be quiet, you are going to be all right. Be still, you are going to be all right." She just kept repeating that.

Mr. SPECTER. Was anything further stated by Special Agent Roy Kellerman other than that which you have already testified about?

Governor CONNALLY. No; those are the only two remarks that I heard him make.

Mr. SPECTER. Was any statement made by Special Agent William Greer at or about the time of the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not hear Bill say anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by President Kennedy after the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction by Mrs. Kennedy after the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. I did not see her. This almost sounds incredible, I am sure, since we were in the car with them. But again I will repeat very briefly when what I believe to be the shot first occurred, I turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as I was turning to look into the back seat where I would have seen both of them, I was hit, so I never completed the turn at all, and I never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as I have testified, then Mrs. Connally pulled me over into her lap and I was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where I could see the driver and Roy Kellerman on his right, but I could not see into the back seat, so I didn't see either one of them.

Mr. SPECTER. When you turned to your right, Governor Connally, immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that occasion?

Governor CONNALLY. Nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. I didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any estimate as to the distance which the President's automobile traveled during the shooting?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I hadn't thought about it, but I would suppose in 10 to 12 seconds, I suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the windshield?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the metal chrome?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you experience any sensation of being struck any place other than that which you have described on your chest?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. What other wounds, if any, did you sustain?

Governor CONNALLY. A fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just above the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. What thigh?

Governor CONNALLY. Left thigh; just above the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. Where on the wrist were you injured, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. I don't know how you describe it.

Mr. SPECTER. About how many inches up from the wrist joint?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out almost in the center of the wrist on the underside.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch from the base of the palm?

Governor CONNALLY. About an inch from the base of the palm, a little less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at the time you sustained it?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first know you were wounded in the right wrist?

Governor CONNALLY. When I came to in the hospital on Saturday, the next morning, and I looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and I said, "What is wrong with my arm?" And they told me then that I had a shattered wrist, and that is when I also found out I had a wound in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly deep penetration.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 inches?

Governor CONNALLY. No; I would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter long is all; fairly wide, I would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch and a half long.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left thigh at the time it occurred?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you first notice that in the hospital on the following day also?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?

Governor CONNALLY. The second one.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot. In the first place, I don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot. I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything.

It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, first, again I assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. I was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and I was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but I was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all.

Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired I was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--I didn't see it, I saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of your chest, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say, if the Committee would be interested, I would just as soon you look at it. Is there any objection to any of you looking at it?

The CHAIRMAN. No.

Governor CONNALLY. You can tell yourself.

I would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that groove, and exited about 2 inches toward the center of the body from the right nipple of my chest. I can identify these for you.

The bullet went in here--see if I properly describe that--about the juncture of the right arm and the shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that the Governor has removed his shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward.

Governor CONNALLY. The other two are tubes that were inserted in my back by the doctors.

Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with identifiable precision where the wounds are.

Dr. SHAW. There is the wound of the drain that has been specifically described. It was not as large as the scar indicated because in cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised in order to make a cleaner incision. This scar----

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the location, Doctor, of that wound on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right shoulder, I will feel it, just lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about 2 centimeters from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall.

Mr. SPECTER. What other scars are shown there on the Governor's back?

Dr. SHAW. The other scars are surgically induced. This is the incision that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space.

Mr. SPECTER. And there you are indicating an incision at what location, please?

Dr. SHAW. Just at the angle of the shoulder blade. Here is the angle of the shoulder blade.

These incisions were never closed by suture. These incisions were left open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because in this case there was what we call a Penrose drain, which is a soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow any material to drain. This was to prevent infection. The other small opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth interspace.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicate its location, please, Doctor, on his back.

Dr. SHAW. This is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the posterior axillary line, roughly this line.

Mr. SPECTER. There you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It is on the right back, but getting close to the lateral portion of the chest. This also was a stab wound which was never sutured. There was a rubber drain through this that led to what we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating again the second medically inflicted wound.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now, Doctor, describe the location of the wound of exit on the Governor's chest, please?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple. Here was this =V= that I was indicating. It is almost opposite that. At the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least 5 centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were excised, and here again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little separation there.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the entire scar there, Doctor, for the record, please?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. The entire surgical incision runs from the anterior portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch, the =V= formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion or the posterior lateral wall of the chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of the scar, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Twenty centimeters, about.

Mr. DULLES. Where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that scar about?

Dr. SHAW. Here.

Mr. DULLES. There?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. All of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet.

Mr. DULLES. Would you give us in your hand the area of declination from the entry to the----

Dr. SHAW. This way.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you estimate that angle for us, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. We are talking about the angle now, of course, with the horizontal, and I would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. I was going to guess somewhere between 25° and 30°.

Mr. DULLES. Sorry to ask these questions.

Governor CONNALLY. That is fine. I think it is an excellent question.

Dr. SHAW. Well, this puts it right at 25°.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it?

Dr. SHAW. Measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the posterior wound over the anterior wound.

The CHAIRMAN. The course being downward back to front?

Dr. SHAW. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. Back to front.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Dr. SHAW. At the time of the initial examination, as I described, this portion of the Governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason I didn't want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having the incision directly over the softened area.

Mr. DULLES. Doctor, would the angle be the same if the Governor were seated now the way he was in the chair?

Dr. SHAW. That is a good question. Of course, we don't know exactly whether he was back or tipped forward. But I don't think there is going to be much difference.

Mr. DULLES. Were you seated in about that way, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, I would say I was in about this position when I was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, 20° off of center.

Dr. SHAW. Yes; I got 27°. That didn't make much difference.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that reading taken then while the Governor is in a seated position, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes, seated; yes.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? How would his hand have been under those circumstances, Doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist?

Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits very well, really, remembering at the other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see it best from over here really, because you did see that the point of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to visualize the trajectory.

Mr. DULLES. Would you be naturally holding your hand in that position?

Dr. GREGORY. It could be any place.

Governor CONNALLY. It could be anywhere on that line, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Chief Justice, you see this is the leg.

Dr. SHAW. Of course, the wound is much smaller than this.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the Governor has displayed the left thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left thigh.

Dr. Gregory, will you describe the locale of that?

Dr. GREGORY. Yes. This scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if I may just interject that----

Mr. SPECTER. Please do.

Dr. GREGORY. The excisional scar to the Governor's thigh is located at a point approximately 10 or 12 centimeters above the adductor tubercule of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third of his thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. In lay language, Doctor, about how far is that up from the knee area?

Dr. GREGORY. Five inches, 6 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, can you recreate the position that you were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the time you think you were struck?

Governor CONNALLY. I think, having turned to look over my right shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, I threw my right wrist over on my left leg.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the position you are seated now, with your right wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two from your knee?

Governor CONNALLY. From the knee.

Mr. SPECTER. And, Dr. Gregory, would that be in approximate alignment which has been characterized on Commission Exhibit----

Dr. GREGORY. I think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In a moment here I can get that exhibit.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask a question in the meantime?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. You turned to the right, as I recall your testimony, because you heard the sound coming from the right?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. How did you happen to turn then to the left, do you remember why that was?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I know exactly. I turned to the right both to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where the sound came from, but even more important, I immediately thought it was a rifleshot, I immediately thought of an assassination attempt, and I turned to see if I could see the President, to see if he was all right. Failing to see him over my right shoulder, I turned to look over my left shoulder.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Governor CONNALLY. Into the back seat, and I never completed that turn. I got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the left of forward, when I got hit.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask one of the doctors a question? What is the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type?

Dr. GREGORY. I will defer the answer to Dr. Shaw. From the wrist, excellent so far as recovery is concerned. Functionally, recovery is going to be good, too, and Dr. Shaw can take on the other one.

Dr. SHAW. We never had any doubt about the Governor's recovery. We knew what we had to do and we felt he could recover. I think I indicated that to Mrs. Connally.

Governor CONNALLY. As soon as you got into the chest and found out what it was.

Representative BOGGS. But, there was a very serious wound, was there not, Doctor?

Dr. SHAW. Yes. It was both a shocking and painful wound, and the effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very dangerous as far as Governor Connally was concerned, because he had what we call a sucking wound of the chest. This would not allow him to breathe. I think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and he may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. But they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest.

Representative BOGGS. Had hospitalization been delayed for about another half hour or so----

Dr. SHAW. That is speculation, but I don't think he could have maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that type of wound. It is a little speculation. It would depend on how well he could protect himself. We have had instances where by putting their jackets around them like this, they could occlude this, and go for a considerable period of time. Airmen during the war instinctively protected themselves in this way.

Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about his physical ability to serve as Governor?

Dr. SHAW. None whatever. [Laughter.]

Senator COOPER. I am just trying to remember whether we asked you, Doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was.

Dr. GREGORY. I did not, Senator. Dr. Tom Shires at our institution attended that wound, and I have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that.

Representative BOGGS. Just one other question of the Doctor. Having looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that that bullet came from the rear, is there?

Dr. GREGORY. There has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin of the missile; no.

Representative BOGGS. And in yours?

Dr. SHAW. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, this is the exhibit which I was referring to, being 689. Was that your approximate position except--that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left leg as you have just described?

Governor CONNALLY. No; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest. But I don't know. I can't say with any degree of certainty where my right hand was, frankly.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally----

Governor CONNALLY. It could have been up on my chest, it could have been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could have been anywhere. I just don't remember.

I obviously, I suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day realizing I was hit in three places, and I was not conscious of having been hit but by one bullet, so I tried to reconstruct how I could have been hit in three places by the same bullet, and I merely, I know it penetrated from the back through the chest first.

I assumed that I had turned as I described a moment ago, placing my right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have happened that way at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be on a normal chair such as you are sitting on?

Governor CONNALLY. I would say it was not unlike this, with the exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to an inch higher.

Mr. DULLES. In this photograph you happen to have your right arm on the side of the car. I don't know whether you recall that. That is Commission Exhibit 698. That just happened to be one pose at one particular time?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I don't think there is any question, Mr. Dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. We had arms extended out of the car, on the side.

Mr. DULLES. That was taken earlier, I believe. Was that on Main Street? Where was that taken?

Representative BOGGS. I wonder if I might ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Representative BOGGS. This is a little bit off the subject, but it is pretty well established that the Governor was shot and he has recovered. Do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy afoot for somebody to assassinate you?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Representative BOGGS. Had you ever received any threat from Lee Harvey Oswald of any kind?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Representative BOGGS. Did you know him?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Representative BOGGS. Had you ever seen him?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Representative BOGGS. Have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of President Kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Representative BOGGS. What is your theory about what happened?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this Commission.

But I think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: First, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. And I think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that I can think of.

You ask me my theory, and that is my theory, and certainly not substantiated by any facts.

Representative BOGGS. Going on again, Governor, and again using the word "theory," do you have any reason to believe that there was any connection between Oswald and Ruby?

Governor CONNALLY. I have no reason to believe that there was; no, Congressman. By the same token, if you ask me do I have any reason not to believe it, I would have to answer the same, I don't know.

Representative BOGGS. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. I just don't have any knowledge or any information about the background of either, and I am just not in a position to say.

Mr. DULLES. You recall your correspondence with Oswald in connection with Marine matters, when he thought you were still Secretary of the Navy?