Chapter II: Part 2

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, I see that you have marked nine characteristics on your chart. Are these all the characteristics which you were able to find----

Mr. LATONA. On this particular chart; yes. They were the only ones that bore--actually, there is still one more characteristic--there could have been 10.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is there any minimum number of points that has to be found in order to make an identification, in your opinion?

Mr. LATONA. No; in my opinion, there are no number of points which are a requirement. Now, there is a general belief among lots of fingerprint people that a certain number of points are required. It is my opinion that this is an erroneous assumption that they have taken, because of the fact that here in the United States a person that qualifies in court as an expert has the right merely to voice an opinion as to whether two prints were made by the same finger or not made. There are no requirements, there is no standard by which a person can say that a certain number of points are required--primarily because of the fact that there is such a wide variance in the experience of men who qualify as fingerprint experts.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, you said that not all experts are in agreement on this subject. Is there any substantial body of expert opinion that holds to a minimum number of points, let's say, 12?

Mr. LATONA. In the United States, to my knowledge, I know of no group or body that subscribe to a particular number. Now, quite frequently some of these departments will maintain a standard for themselves, by virtue of the fact that they will say, "Before we will make an identification, we must find a minimum of 12 points of similarity."

I am quite certain that the reason for that is simply to avoid the possibility of making an erroneous identification. Now, why they have picked 12--I believe that that 12-point business originated because of a certain article which was written by a French fingerprint examiner by the name of Edmond Locard back in 1917, I think--there was a publication to the effect that in his opinion where there were 12 points of similarity, there was no chance of making an erroneous identification. If there were less than 12, he voiced the conclusion that the chances would increase as to finding duplicate prints.

Now, today we in the FBI do not subscribe to that theory at all. We simply say this: We have confidence in our experts to the extent that regardless of the number of points, if the expert who has been assigned to the case for purposes of making the examination gives an opinion, we will not question the number of points. We have testified--I personally have testified in court to as few as seven points of similarity.

Mr. DULLES. But you would not on two, would you?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir; because I know that two points, even though they would not be duplicate points, could be arranged in such a fashion that it might possibly give me the impression that here are two points which appear to be the same even though they are are not.

Mr. DULLES. But it is somewhere between two and seven--somewhere in that range?

Mr. LATONA. That is right. Where that is, I do not know. And I would not say whether I would testify to six, would I testify to five, would I refuse to testify to four.

Mr. DULLES. You say you would--or would you?

Mr. LATONA. I don't know. That's a question I could not answer. I would have to see each case individually before I could render a conclusion.

Now, going outside of the United States, we have been approached--I mean the FBI--have been approached by other foreign experts in an attempt to set a worldwide standard of 16 characteristics, a minimum of 16, as opposed to 12, which is generally referred to by people in this country here. Now of course we would not subscribe to that at all. And I think----

Mr. DULLES. That would be 16 on the fingerprint of the same finger?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. DULLES. Obviously, if you have two fingers that would alter the number--if you had three on one and two on the other, would you consider that five?

Mr. LATONA. We would.

Now, whether the foreign experts would not, I don't know. In other words, if we were to go along with this European theory of 16 points, we would not testify to this being an identification. That is really what it would amount to. Yet to me, in my mind, there is no question that these prints here----

Mr. EISENBERG. Which is what exhibit?

Mr. LATONA. The enlargements in Exhibit 634--are simply reproductions of the left index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind about that?

Mr. LATONA. Absolutely none at all. The fact that there are only the nine points charted--and I feel this way, it is purely a matter of experience. They simply do not have the experience that we have in the FBI. The FBI has the world's largest practical fingerprint file. We receive on an average of 23,000 to 25,000 cards a day which are processed within a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. In a 3-day period?

Mr. LATONA. In a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. And by processed do you mean they are filed according to certain characteristics?

Mr. LATONA. They are. At first they are recorded as having been received from a particular agency, as to the number that we have received, as to the type of the card. Then they are checked to see if the impressions which are on the fingerprint card are complete and legible, that they are placed in their proper sequence, that is they are properly classified.

Then they are checked through our files to see if the person has or has not a prior criminal record. Then a reply is prepared and forwarded to the contributor. That is done in a 3-day period.

Mr. DULLES. How old is the art, roughly?

Mr. LATONA. Insofar as this country is concerned, I would say back to 1903, when the first fingerprint file for purposes of classification and filing was set up in this country in New York.

Mr. DULLES. Did it start in France?

Mr. LATONA. No. Really, I daresay the English were probably as early as any, or even down to South America--you have in Argentina the setting up of fingerprint files as early as 1891. For a long time we never recognized the fact that Argentina had a fingerprint file. I think it is primarily because all of the works on fingerprinting were written in Spanish, and it was just a question of finding somebody to take the time and effort to translate it into English.

The French are credited with the so-called Bertillon system, which is a measurement of the bone structure of the body. Alphone Bertillon was a French----

Mr. DULLES. Didn't Bertillon go into fingerprints later?

Mr. LATONA. Very reluctantly. He was very reluctant to accept it. He was a sort of diehard. He felt that his method, the measurement of certain bones of the body, would not change after a person reached the adult stage. But we know that that is not true. There is a change--because of age, disease, dissipation. A person that was once 6'2" may, because of the fact he is getting older, hump down a little more and instead of being 6'2" he might be 5'11". Certain bone structures over the years make certain changes--plus the fact that his system was not a good system in that certain allowances had to be made because of the way that people were measured.

Sometimes one operator might measure the bones of the arm, for example, too tight, and another too loose. And they used the metric system of measurement, which in terms of their measuring might sometimes mean that the same person would not measure the same bone the same way twice.

We have the celebrated case here which we refer to as the Will West case, here in the United States, in which a man was sentenced to the penitentiary in Leavenworth. He was a colored man by the name of Will West. The operator there, going through the mechanics of taking the various measurements and his photograph, said, "I see you are back here again." The man said, "No, this is the first time I have been to Leavenworth." The operator was certain he had measured and photographed this man before. He went to check his records and he came up with a prior record which disclosed a Will West who had practically the same Bertillon measurements as the man currently being examined.

He said, "Isn't this you?" And he showed him a picture. He looked at the picture and recognized the picture as being one of himself. He said, "Yes, that is me, but I have never been here before."

They checked the records and found still there in the penitentiary was another Will West who looked almost exactly like a twin. But they were not even related. Their features were the same, their measurements were the same, but then their fingerprints were completely different.

If they made that error that one time, how many other times could the same error have been made? And accordingly, we here in the United States, around 1903--the Bertillon method was slowly put out of use. It became obsolete.

Bertillon, before he died, conceded that fingerprints was a good means of identification, and he very reluctantly conceded that the two systems, his method and fingerprints together, would be an absolute means of identification.

We completely did away with the Bertillon system. In fact, the FBI never used it. We started our fingerprint work years after all that had been resolved, back in 1924.

On July 1, 1924, that is actually when the FBI went into the fingerprint business.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much. I found that very interesting.

Representative FORD. Go ahead, Mr. Eisenberg.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you also prepare a chart showing a comparison of the latent and known left-index fingerprint of Lee Harvey Oswald found on the paper bag, Exhibit 626?

Mr. LATONA. The left index finger. That is the one we just discussed.

Mr. EISENBERG. I'm sorry--the right palmprint.

Mr. LATONA. Right.

Mr. EISENBERG. And before we go any further, I should state for the record that the exhibit we have been referring to as 626 was earlier introduced as 142, and it is 142.

Mr. DULLES. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. DULLES. Back on the record.

Mr. EISENBERG. Also, before we get to the palmprint----

Mr. DULLES. Just a moment. It seems to me it would be well to have for the files of the Commission copies of the earlier fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald that were taken, and the time that they were taken.

Mr. EISENBERG. I agree, sir. Mr. Latona----

Mr. LATONA. Do I understand you are asking----

Mr. EISENBERG. I will develop this on the record.

Mr. Latona, you had earlier submitted to us, and we had marked as an exhibit, copies of fingerprint cards and two palmprint cards which were made up by the Dallas police and forwarded to you, received by you from your Dallas office; is that correct?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, in addition, did the Federal Bureau of Investigation have in its files prints of Lee Harvey Oswald which it had received at some earlier date, prior to November 22?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I believe there is a Marine Corps print.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would these prints have been taken by the FBI?

Mr. LATONA. No; they would not.

Mr. EISENBERG. They were taken by----

Mr. LATONA. The regular service.

Mr. EISENBERG. And forwarded to the FBI?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you compare the 10-finger card which you received from the Dallas office of the FBI and compare it with the Marine fingerprint card?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were they identical?

Mr. LATONA. They were the same.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were the palmprints taken by the Marines?

Mr. LATONA. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you submit to us a copy of the 10-print card which you received from the Marine Corps?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I could.

Mr. EISENBERG. With the Chairman's permission, that will be appended as an exhibit to Mr. Latona's testimony.

Representative FORD. Do you wish to identify it by a number at this time?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes. If we could give it a number in advance of receiving it, I would like to give it Commission Exhibit No. 635.

(The item referred to was later supplied and was marked Commission Exhibit No. 635.)

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any fingerprints were taken after Lee Harvey Oswald returned from the Soviet Union?

Mr. LATONA. Those after he was arrested in connection with this particular offense.

Mr. DULLES. Apart from the fingerprints obtained in connection with the assassination.

Mr. LATONA. I do not.

Mr. DULLES. Do you have a right to go to anybody and demand their fingerprints?

Mr. LATONA. No.

Mr. DULLES. Under law?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir; only persons taken into custody for Federal violations as such. Now, the FBI has actually no authority at all, except in cases of making an arrest.

Mr. DULLES. There is nothing done in connection with the census or anything of that kind?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir. Some persons are ordered, by virtue of being aliens, to be fingerprinted--those that are domiciled here in the United States must register under the Alien Registration Act.

Mr. DULLES. And fingerprints then are taken of aliens in connection with their registration?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. DULLES. Otherwise there is no general procedure for the taking of anybody that you may happen to want to take?

Mr. LATONA. The Services, of course, require it. Applicants for certain positions are required by law. For example, all civil service, Federal civil service applicants must be fingerprinted. Locally, there are certain local cases. For example a man may in some localities, if he even applies for a chauffeur's license, has to be fingerprinted. If he desires a gun permit, he has to be fingerprinted. In some places, if he applies for certain jobs he must be fingerprinted.

Mr. DULLES. As I recall, I gave a fingerprint when I got my automobile license. Is that general throughout the United States?

Mr. LATONA. What State was that?

Mr. DULLES. Here in the District. Didn't I give that?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir. To my knowledge, there are none that require it--fingerprinting--for an automobile license. In California I believe it is voluntary--to place the finger, if you desire to, on your card.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, Exhibit 630, which is one of the known 10-print cards submitted by the Dallas office, is marked "Refused to sign" in the box with the printed caption "Signature of person fingerprinted." Do you recall whether Lee Harvey Oswald signed the Marine Corps card?

Mr. LATONA. Offhand, I do not.

Mr. EISENBERG. I think it would be interesting, for the record, to see if that is signed, and, of course, as we read the record and get the card, we will be able to note that information.

We were discussing whether you had made a chart of the known and latent right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald found on Exhibit 142, as I will refer to it from now on.

Mr. LATONA. I believe I have already furnished you smaller photographs.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; you have. Those have been marked into evidence.

Mr. LATONA. This is the inked--the right inked palmprint, a photograph of the right inked palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. You say "this." Can you identify that exhibit? It is 631.

I am handing you Exhibit 632.

Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 632 is approximately a time and a half enlargement of the latent palmprint which was developed on the brown wrapper.

Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 142.

Mr. LATONA. Exhibit 142--which is indicated by the red arrow A.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you prepare this chart, Mr. Latona?

Mr. LATONA. Not personally, no. This was made under my personal direction and supervision.

Mr. EISENBERG. And is it an accurate reproduction of the known and latent prints which were earlier introduced into evidence?

Mr. LATONA. It is. It is a true and faithful reproduction of these areas, enlarged to approximately eight times the originals.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this introduced into evidence as 636, Mr. Chairman?

Representative FORD. It will be introduced.

(The item referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 636 and received in evidence.)

Mr. DULLES. May I ask whether this was discovered immediately after the assassination--at what time did you discover this particular palmprint?

Mr. LATONA. It was on the 23d of November, the day after.

Mr. EISENBERG. Using this chart, 636, Mr. Latona, could you demonstrate to us some of the points which led you to the conclusion that the latent palmprint on 142 was the palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LATONA. The procedure in making this comparison was exactly the same as the procedure followed in connection with making the prior examination of the fingerprint. Now, the area which shows in approximately an eight-time enlargement, and is marked "Latent Palmprint Developed on Brown Homemade Paper Container," which is Exhibit 636, is roughly outlined on Commission Exhibit 631 in red, which is a photograph of the inked right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

This area below the little finger, or what we referred to as the ulnar portion of the palm--now, in making the examination or comparison, here again--first of all I would like to point out that there is a black line that goes right through--in an upward fashion--through the enlargement of the latent fingerprint. That line is caused by virtue of the fact that the palmprint which is developed is partially on a piece of tape as well as the wrapper itself. In other words, a part of the print is on a piece of tape and the other part is on the paper itself.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you show how the palm lay on the paper to produce that impression?

Mr. LATONA. The palm lay in this fashion here.

Mr. EISENBERG. You are putting your right hand on the paper so that the fingers are pointing in the same direction as the arrow A?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. EISENBERG. And it is at approximately right angles to the paper bag?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Here again, in making the comparison, a check is made for the location of certain points.

Now, we notice here that the points appear to be much closer than they were in the fingerprint, and that is probably because of the pressure which was exercised, possibly in holding the object which was in this paper container.

Now, you notice this point No. 1 here, which we term the ending ridge. Point No. 2 is also an ending ridge. And you notice in between these points there is a ridge. Point No. 2 is to the left of point No. 1.

Then we find there is a point No. 3 which is a point which is similar in character to point No. 2 and is almost directly below, but there are two intervening ridges. Then there is a point No. 4 which is below point No. 3, and going in a direction opposite from point No. 3.

If we bear those four points in mind--and if the latent palmprint was made by the same palm that made the inked palmprint--then we should find these four points in that position over there.

Now, in order to first of all find the particular area where we would look to see if those points exist, we would bear in mind the general formation of the print itself. We notice the so-called looping formation in the inked print. We see that there is a looping formation here. Definitely it is not as pronounced in the latent print as it is in the inked print. But to the experienced eye, it is right here.

Accordingly, bearing in mind where these points would occur, we would generalize in the area to the extreme right of the enlargement, and find that there is a point which is somewhat similar to the point which appears in the inked impression, which momentarily we would say appears to be the same point as No. 1.

Now, bearing in mind how No. 2 is related to point No. 1, does such a point appear in the latent print? And making the check, exactly in the same fashion and relationship that occurred in the inked print, we find that there is such a point.

Does a third point appear in the same relationship to point No. 2 as it appears in the inked print?

Counting down one, two, and then the three point being the point itself. And in the same general flowing direction we count here, one, two, three--there it is.

Bearing in mind again that we found point No. 4 is what we refer to as a bifurcation going in the opposite direction from No. 3, which was directly below and to the left, do we find such a point here? Sure enough, there it is.

Now, an additional test would be this: At this point here we notice there is an abrupt ending of a ridge at this point here. It was not even charted. The fact is, it also occurs here. You see this point here, through which there is no line drawn, here it is right here----

Mr. EISENBERG. You are pointing above 4?

Mr. LATONA. Directly above 4 to a ridge going--what we term flowing to the right. Now, at this point here, to a fingerprint examiner of any experience at all, he would start saying these prints were probably made by the same fellow. To satisfy himself, he would continue to point No. 5--one, two, three, four--there is point No. 5. Then there is No. 6, and there is No. 6 here, having exactly the same relationship to each other.

On the basis of those six points alone, I would venture the opinion that these palmprints were made by the same person. But for purposes of carrying it out further, here is point No. 7. Point No. 7 is obliterated to a certain degree to the inexperienced eye by virtue of the fact that it almost coincides with that line there. You probably do not see that.

And here is point No. 8, which is related to point No. 7 by the separation of those ridges in the same way. One, two, three, four--one, two, three, four. In its relationship to No. 9 here--just above and to the left, flowing in the same general direction. Here it is here.

Then your point No. 10, which is tied into point No. 11 in this fashion here, and 12 and 13. All of them have the same relationship insofar as the intervention of ridges is concerned, the same general area, plus the fact that they all flow in the same general direction.

Picking up No. 14, which is going upward, to point No. 15, which stands out rather easily--15 here. To throw in just one point extra--see this little point here, that ends here?

Mr. EISENBERG. That is to the upper right of 15?

Mr. LATONA. To the right and upward of 15.

Mr. DULLES. So you really have 16 points there?

Mr. LATONA. Actually, there are more than that in here, which I have not even bothered to chart. The opinion here, without any question at all, this latent print, which was developed on the brown bag marked "A"--142--was made by the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald. And in my opinion, this identification is absolute. There is no question at all that only the right palm of Lee Harvey Oswald made this print, or could have made it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any further questions on the prints appearing on this bag?

Representative FORD. Mr. Murray?

Mr. MURRAY. May I suggest this, Mr. Chairman? Since the print on the bag may become obliterated, and since members of the Commission have already seen it, it might be advisable to put on the record that they have seen it, because in time to come it may not be visible to anybody.

Representative FORD. Well, I for one would be willing to state that I have personally seen that fingerprint through a glass on the bag--both the finger and the palm.

Mr. DULLES. I would be glad to concur that I also have seen the fingerprint and the palmprint to which Congressman Ford refers.

Mr. EISENBERG. In that general connection, Mr. Latona, do you commonly make your fingerprint identifications on the basis of the object on which the latent print appears, or on the basis of a photograph of that object?

Mr. LATONA. Normally it is made on the basis of photographs. We work more or less like an assembly-line basis, and we do not have the time or the opportunity to work from the originals, as was done in this case--this being quite an exceptional case. So the usual identification would be made--this was made on the basis of the bag itself, rather than to wait and get finished photographs from our photographic laboratory.

If I recall correctly, this was on a Saturday--the 23d?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; it was.

Mr. LATONA. We did not have our full staff there. We were called in to handle this case specially. There were no photographers available at that time for that particular purpose. Frankly, under the circumstances it would not have made any difference whether they were available or not. This had a priority over everything we were working on and naturally we had to proceed as fast as we could, in a sense, to render conclusions and opinions at that time.

Accordingly, the original comparisons were made directly from the wrapper, rather than a photograph, which was prepared subsequently to this.

Representative FORD. The suggestion has been made, Mr. Murray, that perhaps you would like to look at that palmprint and the fingerprint on the wrapping, and you might make a statement the same as Mr. Dulles and I have made.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out to Mr. Murray, Mr. Latona, the two prints?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. "A" is the fingerprint.

Mr. DULLES. And the witness certifies that these are true photographs of the fingerprint and the palmprint that you have exhibited?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. MURRAY. May I say for the record, Mr. Chairman, that I definitely and clearly saw what appeared to me to be a palmprint in the part of Exhibit 142 which was designated with a "B," and less clearly, but nevertheless I did see, the fingerprint on the other portion of the bag.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona----

Mr. LATONA. "B" is the finger, and "A" is the palm.

Mr. MURRAY. Yes; that's correct. And the palm "A"--there I definitely saw what appeared to be a palmprint, and more faintly I saw a fingerprint in the portion marked "B."

Mr. DULLES. And these are exhibits----

Mr. EISENBERG. This is Exhibit 142.

(At this point Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

Mr. DULLES. Both the palmprint and the fingerprint are on Exhibit 142.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes--marked "A" and "B" respectively.

Mr. Latona, one further question on this subject. When you testify in court, do you frequently testify on the basis of the photographs rather than the original object?

Mr. LATONA. If the originals are available, I would prefer that they be brought into court. If they are not, then photographs are used--plus the original negative of the latent prints which were photographed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, I hand you Commission Exhibit 139 which, for the record, consists of the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD building, and which was identified yesterday as the rifle--and the day before yesterday--as the rifle which fired the fatal bullets, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this weapon?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am.

Mr. EISENBERG. And did you examine this weapon to test--did you examine this weapon to determine whether there were any identifiable latent fingerprints on it?

Mr. LATONA. I examined the weapon to determine whether there were any identifiable latent prints on the weapon.

Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive the weapon?

Mr. LATONA. On the morning of November 23, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you proceed to make your examination?

Mr. LATONA. I proceeded to make my examination that same day that I received it.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us what techniques you used?

Mr. LATONA. Well, the technique that I used first was simply to examine it visually under a magnifying glass, a hand magnifying glass, primarily for the purpose of seeing, first of all, whether there were any visible prints. I might point out that my attention had been directed to the area which we refer to as the trigger guard on the left side of the weapon, Commission Exhibit 139.

Mr. EISENBERG. The trigger-guard area?

Mr. LATONA. The trigger-guard area.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which actually, in the case of this particular weapon, is the area in which the magazine is inserted at the top; is that correct? You are looking at the weapon now, and the magazine comes out the bottom of what is called the trigger-guard area, which would be a trigger guard on another weapon.

Mr. LATONA. That's correct. There had been placed over that area a piece of cellophane material. My attention had been directed to it, to the effect that a prior examination had been made of that area, and that there were apparently certain latent prints available--visible under that area.

I first examine most prints to see----

Mr. DULLES. Who placed the cellophane material there, in your opinion?

Mr. LATONA. Well, I was told--my information was simply that the Dallas Police Department had done so. I have no personal knowledge as to who did it, other than information that the Dallas Police had examined the weapon and they had found these visible marks on there, that they had developed the prints.

Now, by what means they did it, I do not know, but I would assume they used a gray powder.

Mr. DULLES. What was the purpose of putting the cellophane there?

Mr. LATONA. To protect the prints while the rifle was intransit to the FBI.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, when you received it with the cellophane cover, what portion did it cover?

Mr. LATONA. Closest to the trigger area.

Mr. EISENBERG. On the trigger guard, closest to the trigger area?

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was that on the right or left side of the weapon?

Mr. LATONA. Left side.

Mr. EISENBERG. And was there a print visible to you underneath the cellophane?

Mr. LATONA. I could see faintly ridge formations there. However, examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting identification or a determination that the print was not identical with the prints of people. Accordingly, my opinion simply was that the latent prints which were there were of no value.

Now, I did not stop there.

Mr. EISENBERG. Before we leave those prints, Mr. Latona, had those been developed by the powder method?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; they had.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was that a gray powder?

Mr. LATONA. I assumed that they used gray powder in order to give them what little contrast could be seen. And it took some highlighting and sidelighting with the use of a spotlight to actually make those things discernible at all.

Representative FORD. As far as you are concerned.

Mr. LATONA. That's right.

Mr. DULLES. Is is likely or possible that those fingerprints could have been damaged or eroded in the passage from Texas to your hands?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir; I don't think so. In fact, I think we got the prints just like they were. There had, in addition to this rifle and that paper bag, which I received on the 23d--there had also been submitted to me some photographs which had been taken by the Dallas Police Department, at least alleged to have been taken by them, of these prints on this trigger guard which they developed. I examined the photographs very closely and I still could not determine any latent value in the photograph.

So then I took the rifle personally over to our photo laboratory. In the meantime, I had made arrangements to bring a photographer in especially for the purpose of photographing these latent prints for me, an experienced photographer--I called him in. I received this material in the Justice Building. My office of operations is in the Identification Division Building, which is at 2d and D Streets SW. So I made arrangements to immediately have a photographer come in and see if he could improve on the photographs that were taken by the Dallas Police Department.

Well, we spent, between the two of us, setting up the camera, looking at prints, highlighting, sidelighting, every type of lighting that we could conceivably think of, checking back and forth in the darkroom--we could not improve the condition of these latent prints.

So, accordingly, the final conclusion was simply that the latent print on this gun was of no value, the fragments that were there.

After that had been determined, I then proceeded to completely process the entire rifle, to see if there were any other prints of any significance or value--any prints of value--I would not know what the significance would be, but to see if there were any other prints. I completely covered the rifle. I also had a firearms man----

Representative BOGGS. What do you cover it with?

Mr. LATONA. Gray fingerprint powder.

Representative BOGGS. What is that powder?

Mr. LATONA. It is usually a combination of chalk and mercury, or possibly white lead and a little bit of resin material to give it some weight.

Mr. EISENBERG. And you testified earlier that that adheres----

Mr. LATONA. To the moisture that was left by the finger, the fingers or the hands, when it came in contact with the surface.

Representative BOGGS. How long will that condition remain?

Mr. LATONA. Going from one extreme to the other, it may remain for years; under other circumstances, it may not even last for 15 or 20 minutes.

Representative BOGGS. Why the difference?

Mr. LATONA. Because of the amount of material which was left and the condition of the material which was left. Basically, the material may be made up of protein material and salt and water--primarily water. If it is totally water, with very little salt or oily material, when the evaporation is effected, then it is complete--there will be nothing left.

Representative BOGGS. You mean that it is gone?

Mr. LATONA. Right. On the other hand, if there is an oily matter there, we know that latent prints will last literally for years on certain objects.

Representative BOGGS. Well, just for purposes of information, if I make fingerprints there on the table, how long would they normally last?

Mr. LATONA. I don't know.

Representative BOGGS. Well, would there be any way to know?

Mr. LATONA. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It depends on temperature, on the amount of moisture involved?

What does it depend on?

Mr. LATONA. First of all, I saw him touch it, but I am not even sure he left a print there.

Representative BOGGS. Well, I can see it.

Mr. LATONA. As to the quality of the print, there again it is simply a matter of what material you have in your hands that made that print, as to how long it will last, how long it will take for it to evaporate.

Actually, when it dries out, it may, in itself, leave a print with such clarity that it would not--even though it would not accept the powder, still by highlighting it, the way you did to see that the print was there, we could photograph it so it would come out just as clear as though it were black on white.

Representative BOGGS. Does the material that one touches have any effect?

Mr. LATONA. Very definitely. It depends on how hard or smooth the material is.

Representative BOGGS. Now, does a weapon lend itself to retaining fingerprints?

Mr. LATONA. This particular weapon here, first of all, in my opinion, the metal is very poorly finished. It is absorbent. Believe it or not, there is a certain amount of absorption into this metal itself. It is not finished in the sense that it is highly polished.

Representative BOGGS. So this would be conducive to getting a good print, or would it?

Mr. LATONA. It would not.

Representative BOGGS. I see--because it would absorb the moisture.

Mr. LATONA. That's right. Now, there are other guns--for example, Smith and Wesson, which have exceptionally nice finishes, the blue metal finishes are better surfaces for latent prints. Where you have a nickel-plated or silver-plated revolvers, where it is smooth--they are much more conducive to latent prints than some of these other things, say like the army type, the weapons used in wartime that are dull, to avoid reflection--things of that type--they are not as good.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you would like to look at the fingerprints we have gone over. They are quite apparent there with the glass.

Representative BOGGS. I would like to look at them. That is all I want to ask right at the moment.

Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask a general question.

Mr. LATONA (addressing Representative Boggs). This is one of the fingerprints developed on the brown wrapper. It is this print here.

Mr. DULLES. You can see these prints quite clearly, and the palmprint.

Representative BOGGS. This is a photograph of that?

Mr. LATONA. This is approximately a time and a half enlargement. This is the left index finger. Here is the palmprint that was developed.

Representative FORD. Mr. Boggs--each of us here, Mr. Dulles, Mr. Murray, and myself, have said on the record that we have seen the prints on the wrapping. We did this because, as Mr. Latona has indicated, such prints may disappear over a period of time. We thought it might be well for the record to indicate that we saw them. If you wish to do the same----

Representative BOGGS. I would like to do the same, having just seen it.

Mr. DULLES. The witness has certified to the fact that these are true photographs of the prints that we have seen.

Representative BOGGS. And the witness has also certified that those are Oswald's prints?

Mr. LATONA. No; I cannot certify to that.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you want to explain that?

Mr. LATONA. As I am not the one that fingerprinted Oswald, I cannot tell from my own personal knowledge that those are actually the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. But you can certify that those prints are identical with the prints on the card which bears the name of Lee Harvey Oswald which was furnished to you?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. We will get other evidence in the record at a subsequent time to show those were the prints of Oswald. Mr. Latona, you were saying that you had worked over that rifle by applying a gray powder to it. Did you develop any fingerprints?

Mr. LATONA. I was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. I also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and I processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. And no latent prints of value were developed.

Mr. EISENBERG. Does that include the clip?

Mr. LATONA. That included the clip, that included the bolt, it included the underside of the barrel which is covered by the stock.

Mr. EISENBERG. Were cartridge cases furnished to you at that time?

Mr. LATONA. They were, which I processed, and from which I got no prints.

Mr. EISENBERG. Therefore, the net result of your work on Exhibit 139 was that you could not produce an identifiable print?

Mr. LATONA. That's correct.

Mr. DULLES. May I ask one question? Does the Secret Service do fingerprinting work, or do they turn it over to you--turn to you for all of that?

Mr. LATONA. I think they do some of their own, and on occasion we will do some for them, too. Primarily I think they do their own. I am not too familiar with the Secret Service as to how elaborate their laboratory is.

Mr. EISENBERG. So as of November 23, you had not found an identifiable print on Exhibit 139?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, "11-22-63." There is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip C 2766," which I might remark parenthetically is the serial number of Exhibit 139. I ask you whether you are familiar with this item which I hand you, this card?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I am familiar with this particular exhibit.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather?

Mr. LATONA. This exhibit or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder.

Mr. EISENBERG. And when did you receive this item?

Mr. LATONA. I received this item November 29, 1963.

Mr. EISENBERG. Before we go any further may I have this admitted into evidence?

Representative FORD. It will be. What is the number?

Mr. EISENBERG. That will be No. 637.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 637, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you describe to us what a lift is?

Mr. LATONA. A lift is merely a piece of adhesive material which is used for purposes of removing a print that has been previously developed on an object, onto the adhesive material. Then the adhesive material is placed on a backing, in this case which happens to be the card. The adhesive material utilized here is similar to scotch tape. There are different types of lifting material. Some of them are known as opaque lifters, which are made of rubber, like a black rubber and white rubber, which has an adhesive material affixed to it, and this material is simply laid on a print which has been previously developed on an object and the full print is merely removed from the object.

Mr. EISENBERG. When you say "the print" is removed, actually the powder----

Mr. LATONA. The powder that adhered to the original latent print is picked off of the object.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that the impression actually is removed?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Representative FORD. Is that a recognized technique?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; it is.

Representative FORD. In the fingerprinting business?

Mr. LATONA. It is very common, one of the most common methods of recording latent prints.

Mr. EISENBERG. Who did you get this exhibit, this lift from?

Mr. LATONA. This lift was referred to us by the FBI Dallas office.

Mr. EISENBERG. And were you told anything about its origin?

Mr. LATONA. We were advised that this print had been developed by the Dallas Police Department, and, as the lift itself indicates, from the underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, may I say for the record that at a subsequent point we will have the testimony of the police officer of the Dallas police who developed this print, and made the lift; and I believe that the print was taken from underneath the portion of the barrel which is covered by the stock. Now, did you attempt to identify this print which shows on the lift Exhibit 637?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you succeed in making identification?

Mr. LATONA. On the basis of my comparison, I did effect an identification.

Mr. EISENBERG. And whose print was that, Mr. Latona?

Mr. LATONA. The palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Latona, as I understand it, on November 23, therefore, the FBI had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the FBI did succeed in identifying a print on Exhibit 139?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which I believe appeared in the press, as to an identification?

Mr. LATONA. We had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle. The only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which I previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. There was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. This print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such--even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle.

Mr. DULLES. Do I understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate----

Mr. LATONA. Completely.

Mr. DULLES. The original print?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. So that you personally, Mr. Latona, did not know anything about a print being on the rifle which was identifiable until you received, actually received the lift, Exhibit 637?

Mr. LATONA. On the 29th of November.

Mr. EISENBERG. Seven days after the assassination.

And in the intervening period, correspondingly, the FBI had no such knowledge?

Mr. LATONA. As far as I know.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, could you tell us what portion of the palm of Lee Harvey Oswald you identified that print as being?

Mr. LATONA. Yes. Here again I have a photograph that will show the approximate area involved, which is on the ulnar side of the lower portion of the palm.

Mr. EISENBERG. The ulnar----

Mr. LATONA. Down near the base of the palm toward the wrist.

Mr. EISENBERG. This is the right palm?

Mr. LATONA. The right palm.

Mr. EISENBERG. As it was in the case of the paper bag, Exhibit 142?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Could you display that photograph, please? This is a photograph which you took of the inked print which was furnished to you by the Dallas office?

Mr. LATONA. I didn't personally prepare the photographs. They were prepared at my personal direction.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was it prepared under your supervision?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is it an accurate reproduction?

Mr. LATONA. It is.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 638?

Representative FORD. It shall be admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked as Commission Exhibit No. 638, and received in evidence.)

Mr. LATONA. I might point out that you have the original of this which has been previously admitted.

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; but this photograph shows a red circle around the portion which you identified----

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. As being the latent found on the lift, is that right?

(Discussion off the record.)

(The reporter read the last question.)

Mr. LATONA. Yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, now you are showing me another photograph which appears to be a photograph of the lift itself, Exhibit 637, but an enlargement thereof?

Mr. LATONA. Slightly enlarged; yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was this prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. LATONA. It was.

Mr. EISENBERG. And there is a red circle around this, on this photograph, that is around the print, the latent print?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this photograph admitted as 639?

Representative FORD. It shall be admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 639, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona, did you also prepare a chart showing an enlarged portion of the inked and latent palmprint?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Illustrating some of the points which you used in making your identification?

Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. Was this chart prepared by you or under your supervision?

Mr. LATONA. This was prepared under my direct supervision.

Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 640?

Representative FORD. It shall be admitted.

(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 640, and received in evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. What is the enlargement of this chart?

Mr. LATONA. Approximately an eight-time enlargement of the latent print which appears on the lift, Commission Exhibit----

Mr. EISENBERG. 637?

Mr. LATONA. 637. And the inked right palmprint enlargement is approximately eight times an enlargement of the Exhibit 638.

Mr. EISENBERG. The inked print?

Mr. LATONA. Which is encircled in red, a portion of that area.

Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could put that up on this easel here so that we can all see it, and explain to us some of the points which led you to your conclusion.

Mr. LATONA. Here again the approach insofar as making a comparison is concerned is exactly the same. That never changes. In making a comparison of fingerprints or palmprints, the mechanics are exactly the same.

First to look for what might be considered as points which are easy to see to the fingerprint man.

Representative FORD. May I ask first was the lift a good print for technical purposes?

Mr. LATONA. Yes; to the extent that the identification was made. There is no question as to the identity.

Now, insofar as quality is concerned, I believe that is what you have in mind, we don't, in fingerprint circles, don't say that this is a good latent as compared to a bad latent. If it is valuable for purposes of identification, so far as we are concerned it is good.

Now, that may not appear to the inexperienced eye possibly as being as clear as some of those others which you have already seen, but for the purpose of identification the points are here. That is the main thing.

Now, in making the comparison here it is easy to see the inked print. There is very little question here. This print was made on purpose for purposes of recording the ridges. This was made more or less incidental or possibly accidental.

Mr. DULLES. How does the left one differ? I thought you told us before it was 10 times.

Mr. LATONA. No; those were the others.

Mr. DULLES. That was the fingerprint that was 10 times?

Mr. LATONA. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. And the palm has always been eight times?

Mr. LATONA. That is right, because of the fact to make it 10 times it would have been enlarged to the extent that maybe you wouldn't be able to see the significance as to what it purports to be.

If you enlarge a fingerprint too much, it loses its identity. I have seen them where they were enlarged so big that you couldn't tell what they were, and if somebody would tell you it is a fingerprint you would say, if you say so it is, but it doesn't look like it to me.

Now, in some other sciences, for example, like handwriting and things of that kind, you can enlarge them pretty good size, typewriting and things of that type, but a fingerprint because of the poorness in contrast plus the fact that in themselves these black marks have no particular significance, they might lose their identity, you won't reconcile a palmprint with a palmprint.

So, actually for purposes of making comparisons we never make a comparison from an enlargement. The best way to make a comparison, the more complete, is to make it from the actual size, utilizing a regular fingerprint glass which enlarges approximately four diameters.

We would never think of enlarging the prints for purposes of making our initial comparison. We make them on the basis of the actual size, just like you see it here, utilizing a fingerprint, which gives you a better picture.

Mr. EISENBERG. Fingerprint glass, you mean?

Mr. LATONA. Fingerprint glass, because you get a much better view of the impression than you do where it is enlarged because in enlarging you have a tendency to distort the dissimilarities, to exaggerate what may be considered as dissimilarities.

Now, looking at these marks here again, which are very apparent here in the ink print, this No. 1 which is a black line which flows over to the right, then one ridge directly below it and off to the left is this point No. 2. Then by counting down 1, 2, 3, 4 we come to this portion, a short-ending ridge, which is similar to this short-ending ridge in the illustration drawn on the board, is No. 3.