Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was--there was a pilot car ahead of us with Deputy Chief Lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from Love Field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was.

He had been preceding us all this way. There has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down Main Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that to the Commission?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I can. I will make another diagram here, if you wish me to.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. McCloy asked about whether the chronological report that Chief Curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the Commission. We have now searched the Commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the Commission and we have it here. It is a Commission document----

Mr. REDLICH. It is in Commission Document 81.1.

Representative FORD. Will this report be made a part of the record?

Mr. RANKIN. We haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the Commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. It may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. Is that a satisfactory handling of it?

Representative FORD. I think it is. I haven't had an opportunity to examine it. But if it is a part of the record, I suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. But it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point.

Mr. RANKIN. I would like to ask leave of the Chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless I report back to the Commission that for some reason it would not be desirable.

Mr. DULLES. That would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Except my offer before, Mr. Chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. And that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the Commission.

Here I wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the Commission.

Mr. DULLES. You will report back to the Commission. It will not be excluded unless you so report to the Commission.

Mr. RANKIN. That is right.

Mr. DULLES. And the reason therefor?

Mr. CURRY. This sketch.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that sketch you have just made Exhibit 702 please, and 703?

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 702 and 703 were marked for identification.)

Mr. CURRY. In the diagram, 702, Exhibit 702, the motorcade was going west on Main Street, there is a triple underpass there. There are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass.

Mr. RANKIN. Where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on Main Street?

Mr. CURRY. It is just west of Houston Street and runs parallel with Houston Street. And Main Street--now Houston Street runs in a north-south direction, Main Street, Elm Street, and Commerce Street the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are east-west, Elm Street is a one-way street west, Commerce is one-way east, Main Street is a two-way street going east and west. We had----

Mr. RANKIN. You were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down Main.

Mr. CURRY. We would--we left the parade route up to the host committee. They chose the route, asking that we go down Main Street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto Stemmons Expressway. It was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the Trade Mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held.

But had we proceeded on down Main Street, we could not have gotten onto Stemmons Expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it.

So, in talking with the Secret Service people they suggested we come to Main Street to Elm Street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the Elm Street side and at this place Elm Street is two-way.

So that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the Stemmons Expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing and going----

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; nothing was said about it at all. In fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the Secret Service.

They asked us what we thought about certain routes. We told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, I think for the purpose they wanted the President to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him.

Mr. RANKIN. Going to the Trade Mart building would be assumed that you would go by the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. CURRY. If we went on Stemmons Expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. The only other way we could have gone. We could have continued down Main Street passed through the underpass about a block past there to Industrial Boulevard and then we would have gone Industrial Boulevard and made an entrance from the Trade Mart, from the north side of the Trade Mart there. But it was decided with the Secret Service people that we would go Main to Houston, Houston to Elm, Elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the Trade Mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the cars of the----

Mr. McCLOY. Just before that, how far before November 22 was that route decided on?

Mr. CURRY. Approximately 2 days or so, I believe. That is in this chronological record.

Mr. DULLES. When was this route published?

Mr. McCLOY. That route was published.

Mr. CURRY. It was published perhaps 2 days before, a day or two before.

Mr. RANKIN. Is the Elm Street route a shorter route than to go by Industrial Boulevard?

Mr. CURRY. It's a more scenic route. The Stemmons Expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a 10-lane highway, and the Industrial Highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. And there was a more scenic route and traffic was more--a freer flow of traffic anyway.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route?

Mr. CURRY. Not particularly. Chief Batchelor, my assistant chief, and Chief Lunday. I discussed this some with the Secret Service Agent Sorrels, and Lawson in a staff meeting at city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. What was that discussion?

Mr. CURRY. Well, we, when I say we, I mean my staff and I, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say that would have been?

Mr. CURRY. It would have been to come into Lemmon Avenue, to Central Expressway if they were coming through town and over that route.

Now, if they were going directly to the Trade Mart it would have been to come in Lemmon to Inwood Road and down Inwood to Hines, and Hines to Industrial and Industrial into--but this would not have taken them through the downtown area.

Mr. RANKIN. Then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that?

Mr. CURRY. This was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the Central Expressway to Main Street, and then west on Main Street right down the route that was taken.

They chose rather to come in on Lemmon Avenue to Turtle Creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. And followed Turtle Creek into Cedar Springs, to Harwood and south on Harwood to Main Street, west on Main to Houston, north on Houston to Elm and west on Elm to Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you described the cars in the motorcade? Their positions?

Mr. CURRY. I have them listed here, I couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Tell us the front part that you recall.

Mr. CURRY. I had Deputy Chief Lumpkin, and he had two Secret Service men with him, I believe, out of Washington, and a Colonel Wiedemeyer who is the East Texas Section Commander of the Army Reserve in the area, he was with him. They were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and I was in the lead car.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was with you?

Mr. CURRY. Inspector, not inspector, but Sheriff Bill Decker, Sorrels of the Secret Service, and Mr. Lawson, I believe he was out of the Washington office of the Secret Service. And immediately behind us then was the President's car.

Mr. RANKIN. You were driving your car?

Mr. CURRY. I was driving my car.

Mr. RANKIN. You had radio communication in that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and Secret Service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Now, what was in the next car.

Mr. CURRY. The President's party was in that car. Then following him was the Secret Service vehicle and then I understand was the Vice President's car, and then behind him was a Secret Service car. And then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after you turned the corner off of Main going onto Houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it?

Mr. CURRY. Nothing unusual occurred. We were, I would say traveling perhaps 10 miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on Houston to west on Elm Street, and----

Mr. RANKIN. Did you slow down for the turn onto Elm?

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps just a little. I would say we were probably going 8 to 10 miles an hour. And as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed.

Mr. RANKIN. How much of a descent is there between where the Depository Building is and the place in the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. It is a pretty good little drop. Within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass.

Mr. RANKIN. It would be more than the height of a car?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; two heights.

Mr. RANKIN. Two heights.

Mr. CURRY. I think it is a 13- or 14-foot clearance.

Mr. RANKIN. Trucks could get under that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY. Then we heard this report.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how far along from the corner of Elm and Houston were you at the time of that?

Mr. CURRY. I think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so.

Mr. RANKIN. How fast were you going then?

Mr. CURRY. I think we were going between 10 or 12 miles an hour, maybe up to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened?

Mr. CURRY. We heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed I have told you.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What was the distance between your car and the President's car approximately?

Mr. CURRY. Mr. Dulles, I believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been 100, 125 feet.

Mr. DULLES. Between your car and the President's car?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, we stayed pretty close to them. In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?

Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. RANKIN. How many motorcycles did you have?

Mr. CURRY. I think we had four on each side of him.

Mr. RANKIN. How many did you want to have?

Mr. CURRY. We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.

Mr. RANKIN. So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?

Mr. CURRY. Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.

Mr. RANKIN. Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?

Mr. CURRY. I believe Mr. Lawson.

Mr. RANKIN. The Secret Service man?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Also we had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you propose that to someone?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Who did you propose it to?

Mr. CURRY. To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.

Mr. RANKIN. What did they say about that?

Mr. CURRY. They didn't want it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they tell you why?

Mr. CURRY. They said the Secret Service would be there.

Mr. RANKIN. And then?

Mr. CURRY. They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years.

It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns.

Representative FORD. Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.

Mr. CURRY. Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.

Representative FORD. Were they in a car following up the motorcade?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they were in a car.

Representative FORD. How far away would they have been?

Mr. CURRY. I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.

Representative FORD. Captain Fritz is going to be here later.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And fill in what he did at that time?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.

Mr. DULLES. You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know or can you tell us approximately where the President's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard?

Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge, I would say it was approximately halfway between Houston Street and the underpass, which would be, I would say probably 125-150 feet west of Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot?

Mr. CURRY. Well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession.

Mr. RANKIN. How many feet do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps 25 or 30 feet further along.

Mr. RANKIN. Then at the time of the third shot?

Mr. CURRY. A few feet further, perhaps 15-20 feet further.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot?

Mr. CURRY. This is just an opinion on my part but I would think perhaps 5 or 6 seconds.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you hear any more than three shots?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CURRY. I am positive of that. I heard three shots. I will never forget it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have something, Mr. McCloy?

Mr. McCLOY. I was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. McCLOY. Was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it?

Mr. CURRY. No; I could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. I also could see an officer up there. I don't know who the officer was.

Mr. McCLOY. You could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass.

Mr. McCLOY. How close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot?

Mr. CURRY. Oh, perhaps 150 feet or 100 feet or so.

Mr. McCLOY. So you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe it did; no, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Then----

Mr. CURRY. Because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. This seemed to be people that I could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. They just seemed to be there.

Mr. McCLOY. You spoke of the railroad yard. Just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? We will see that.

Mr. CURRY. It is over----

Mr. McCLOY. It is on the other side.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. You see these tracks.

Mr. RANKIN. Mark that as Exhibit 703 and you can refer to.

Mr. CURRY. Yes; here is the School Book Depository. The railroad goes over.

Mr. DULLES. This aerial view of the Elm Street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as 704.

(Commission Exhibit No. 704 was marked for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. McCLOY. Do you call that the railroad yards?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that is true.

Mr. McCLOY. Above the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see a number of people in the railroad yard?

Mr. CURRY. I would estimate maybe a half dozen.

Mr. DULLES. They were spectators or were they workmen. They were spectators?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; as well as I was able to tell. They might have been workmen, too, but I presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize any officer amongst them?

Mr. CURRY. I seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there.

Mr. McCLOY. In the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so.

Representative FORD. Do you know who the officer was?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; but I believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there.

There is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. RANKIN. On the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with Chief Curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass.

Mr. CURRY. Really over.

Mr. RANKIN. At the time of the motorcade.

Representative FORD. Who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass?

Mr. CURRY. Deputy Chief Lunday and Assistant Chief Batchelor went over this route with Sorrels, and I believe Lawson was with them. And they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location.

Mr. RANKIN. The inquiry I think particularly is did the Secret Service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one?

Mr. CURRY. No; it would be the Secret Service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. The only deviation we made from that was in the security of the Trade Mart. I believe they requested 143 men, as I recall to secure the Trade Mart, and I believe we supplied them with 193 or 194 men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location.

I called the State police, and they furnished a number of men, about 30 men, and Sheriff Decker furnished about 15, and I think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus.

Representative FORD. But the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by Lawson and Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir; yes, sir.

(At this point Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask one question?

As you were leading this or just ahead of the President's car, as you came around past the School Depository Building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. There was no movement or anything?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. You weren't conscious of looking up at the windows?

Mr. CURRY. Not at all.

Mr. McCLOY. You had Secret Service men in that car with you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Were they inspecting the windows as they went by?

Mr. CURRY. It seemed that Sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was Lawson. I know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another.

Mr. DULLES. If you had had the other Car with police officers in it to which you referred and which I gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car?

Mr. CURRY. It would have been, of course, to guard the President, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. That was what we had planned.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route?

Mr. CURRY. The comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building.

Mr. RANKIN. Who said that?

Mr. CURRY. This was in a discussion with the Secret Service. I don't recall exactly who said this.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it the Secret Service people or your people?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know whether it was us or Secret Service. But this was discussed. I think it was Secret Service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. We did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Where were they located?

Mr. CURRY. On the route down Main Street. We didn't have any between Elm Street and the railroad yard.

Mr. RANKIN. But you say in midblock?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area.

Mr. RANKIN. Where would the downtown area be?

Mr. CURRY. It would be from Harwood Street down to Houston Street.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, do you know whether Officers Foster and White were on the underpass?

Mr. CURRY. I would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, unless I may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident?

Mr. CURRY. It was not unusual. This was not setting a precedent.

Mr. McCLOY. It was not unusual.

Representative FORD. In such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification?

Mr. CURRY. Are they shielded from----

Representative FORD. From the person who is brought up for identification?

Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. This is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify.

For this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. It is much like a one-way glass.

Representative FORD. That was used in this case?

Mr. CURRY. No; this was not used. We just brought him in front of it.

Representative FORD. Any particular reason why he was put in front of it?

Mr. CURRY. They asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. And as I repeated, when this was brought up, I asked Mr. Wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "No; I don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this.

Representative FORD. Who was in charge of the actual showup operation?

Mr. CURRY. The jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him.

Representative FORD. Who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses?

Mr. CURRY. Usually Captain Fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. I know when they were having a showup for a little lady, I don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, I just--I wasn't there during the entire showup but I was present part of the showup and Captain Fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify Oswald at that time.

Representative FORD. Did you say the actual process that was--that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases?

Mr. CURRY. The only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs.

Representative FORD. You mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that Oswald had been badly treated.

Mr. CURRY. There was--I didn't hear this myself but someone told me, I don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, I understood this was broadcast over the radio and TV.

Representative FORD. Did you investigate that rumor?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What did you find out?

Mr. CURRY. I found he had not been mistreated.

Representative FORD. You checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it?

Mr. CURRY. Everyone I knew about and the only marks on him was, that I could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face.

But he didn't complain to me about it. I think he--one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "A cop hit me," I believe, or "A policeman hit me."

Representative FORD. Did you ask Oswald whether he had been mistreated?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe I did, sir.

Representative FORD. But you talked to Oswald on one or more occasions?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know that I ever asked him any questions at all. I was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. Fritz, I think did more talking to him than anybody else.

Representative FORD. But not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the Dallas police force?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. You have also described showups in regard to Oswald and you said there were several of them.

Mr. CURRY. When I said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "We saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the Presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene.

Mr. RANKIN. So the principal reason was to allow the news media?

Mr. CURRY. The principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner.

Mr. RANKIN. And he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he was not.

Mr. RANKIN. And whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him?

Mr. CURRY. They might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area.

Mr. RANKIN. And that is the particular showup when you learned later Jack Ruby was supposed to have been present?

Mr. CURRY. I was told that he was present. That someone had seen him back in this room. He easily could have been there as far as I was concerned because I wouldn't have known him from anyone else.

Mr. RANKIN. At the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, there were.

Mr. RANKIN. How were those handled, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. Exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify him?

Mr. CURRY. Only on one occasion. This was a little lady that was a waitress.

Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Markham?

Mr. CURRY. I believe her name was Mrs. Markham.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether she was able to identify him?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, I heard her tell Captain Fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was Officer Tippit?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. What kind of a reputation did Officer Tippit have with the police force?

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question before that. Were you present when any members of Oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether any of your officers were?

Mr. CURRY. I understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. DULLES. He would know about it?

Mr. CURRY. I believe he would, yes.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what Officer Tippit's reputation was with your police force?

Mr. CURRY. He had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer.

Mr. RANKIN. How long had he been with you?

Mr. CURRY. I believe he came to work for us in 1952, after he had had service in the paratroopers, I believe, and he had made several jumps into Europe. He was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. He was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. He seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man.

Mr. RANKIN. What was his rank?

Mr. CURRY. Patrolman. He was not a real aggressive type officer. In fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, I believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. I think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. It was merely a quiet, shy-type individual.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him?

Mr. CURRY. The only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions.

Mr. DULLES. Missed what?

Mr. CURRY. Missed court.

Mr. RANKIN. He had been unable to testify or something?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; in city court they have to appear 1 day a week. They are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. And on two occasions he failed to appear. I think one time he forgot it and I think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the penalty that was imposed?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, it was. He took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated.

Mr. RANKIN. That was the only disciplinary action against him?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it.

Under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force.

Mr. DULLES. A rumor reached me that Officer Tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, I don't know what the foundation of that is. Do you know anything about that at all?

Mr. CURRY. Nothing whatsoever; no, sir.

Representative FORD. You mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity?

Mr. CURRY. This is the first I ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics.

Representative FORD. But your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you, so far as you know, did Tippit know Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. I am sure he didn't. He would not be the type I think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty.

Tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in Oak Cliff. I don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where Jack Ruby--well Jack Ruby did live in Oak Cliff but I am sure, to the best of my knowledge, Tippit never had any occasion to be around Jack Ruby.

Mr. DULLES. Was Tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area?

Mr. CURRY. On this particular day, now he had been assigned to Oak Cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the Texas School Book Depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain that further?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. This is just automatic patrol policy.

On this particular day, some of the squads in this Oak Cliff area had been ordered over into the Dallas area, this Texas School Book Depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, I think we have this on a radio log, I don't know whether you have this or not, were 78 or 81.

Mr. BALL. Why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for Tippit to come in there.

Mr. CURRY. Right here. This would have been at approximately 12:45, I believe. Here is the description came out at about 12:45. The dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads.

Mr. DULLES. What do you mean by description?

Mr. CURRY. Of a suspect.

Mr. DULLES. I see, description of Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. What are you reading from, Chief?

Mr. CURRY. This is radio log record from the Dallas Police Department, as recorded on November 22.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that from Commission Document 728?

Mr. DULLES. I want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving?

Mr. CURRY. It was a description of a suspect.

Mr. DULLES. You didn't know it was Oswald?

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what the rest of that notation is?

Mr. CURRY. Dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads Elm and Houston, unknown white male person approximately 30, slender build, height 5 feet 10, 160 pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a .30-caliber rifle. Attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male 30, 5 feet 10 inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a .30-30 rifle, no further description at this time."

This was at 12:45 p.m.

Mr. RANKIN. What channel are you talking about?

Mr. CURRY. Channel 1.

Mr. RANKIN. You had more than one channel?

Mr. CURRY. Two channels.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. Someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal 19 which is a shooting under our code involving the President.

Representative FORD. Did Tippit's motorcycle have channel 1?

Mr. CURRY. He was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel 1 and 2, but they stay on channel 1 unless they are instructed to switch over to channel 2.

Mr. DULLES. He did have channel 1?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads 102 and 233 checked out at Elm and Houston, 81 came in the district squad, that was an Oak Cliff squad. He said "I will be going north from Industrial on Corinth." That means he was leaving the Oak Cliff section coming toward the downtown section of Dallas.

Representative FORD. By he who do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. The man assigned to district 81, and I don't have his name but it would be on our records.

Then Tippit was working 78 and he along with district 87, which is further out in Oak Cliff, at about 12:45, between 12:45 and 12:46, the dispatcher sent out this message to him, "87-78 moving into central Oak Cliff area."

Now the central Oak Cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred.

Representative FORD. Shooting of Tippit?

Mr. CURRY. Shooting of Tippit occurred. I am sure--a little later on here, he says "you are in Oak Cliff area, are you not," and he said "at Lancaster and 8th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred.

Mr. McCLOY. This is Tippit's reply going in?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. The next sentence also says something, Chief?

Mr. CURRY. And the dispatcher told him, "You will be at large for any emergency that comes in." In other words, he was one of the remaining squads in Oak Cliff that was in service.

Mr. DULLES. What does that mean, scout around the area?

Mr. CURRY. Anywhere in that central area, Oak Cliff.

Mr. McCLOY. Did he reply to that?

Mr. CURRY. He said "10-4".

Mr. RANKIN. What does that mean?

Mr. CURRY. It means message received.

Mr. RANKIN. Doesn't that mean approval?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. These are transcriptions of communications back and forth?

Mr. CURRY. That is recorded on our radio there in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there a tape recorder on that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; and it is kept for a permanent record.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any other shooting in this particular area where Officer Tippit was that morning, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. Is that 10-4 message the last message you received from Tippit?

Mr. CURRY. As far as I know that is the last word we heard from him.

Mr. McCLOY. Was this description of the suspect the first description that went out?

Mr. CURRY. As far as I know, it is.

Mr. DULLES. That was at 12:45, as I recall.

Mr. CURRY. Approximately, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn of Officer Tippit's murder?

Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital. That is after we had taken the President there and the Governor, and we were waiting there.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, on these showups for Lee Oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people?

Mr. CURRY. We had some police officers bringing him down. I was there, Captain Fritz went, I don't believe he went inside the door. He went to the door, I believe. There were several officers there, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this more than usual?

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps so; yes. Ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. And there would have been the detective out with the witnesses.

Mr. RANKIN. Were you disturbed about the security for Lee Oswald with all this crowd?

Mr. CURRY. Not at that time. I really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. I thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and I had no reason to be concerned about the news media.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as well as----

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about it?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything about it but I was concerned about it. I was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some different arrangements for the press. We couldn't, when I say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then?

Mr. CURRY. No. I didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. You gave no consideration to that kind of approach?

Mr. CURRY. Not at the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Now after the interrogation of Oswald, did you make some decision about moving him?

Mr. CURRY. Not at that particular time. It is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by file on a person?

Mr. CURRY. File a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us.

Mr. RANKIN. A criminal complaint?

Mr. CURRY. A criminal complaint. After we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial.

Mr. RANKIN. That is a regular practice?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. These transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning.

Mr. RANKIN. By the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility?

Mr. CURRY. Routine transfers are made. It is not a hard and fast custom. Many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff.

Mr. RANKIN. Who decides which way you will do it?

Mr. CURRY. It is left up to the bureau commander.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the bureau commander?

Mr. CURRY. That is handling the case.

Mr. RANKIN. Who would that be in this case?

Mr. CURRY. In this case it would have been Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. And he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it come to your attention this time?

Mr. CURRY. It did this time. I had asked, it seemed to me like it was on Saturday after he had been filed on late or early Friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and I said, "I don't know."

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by "early Friday morning?"

Mr. CURRY. I mean early Saturday morning. Late Friday night or early Saturday morning.

Representative FORD. Where do you actually do this filing?

Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the President was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. However, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Who do you mean by we?

Mr. CURRY. When I say we, I mean the Dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Representative FORD. What evidence did you have at that point?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell you all the evidence. I think Captain Fritz can tell you better than I. Captain Fritz just told me on Friday afternoon he said, "We have sufficient evidence to file a case on Oswald for the murder of Tippit." Later on that night, somewhere around midnight, I believe, he told me, he said, "We now have sufficient evidence to file on Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President Kennedy."

He told me he had talked it over with Henry Wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did.

Representative FORD. At that time you had the rifle, did you not?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know, sir.

Representative FORD. It was reported that the original identification was a 7.65 Mauser. Are those reports true or untrue?

Mr. CURRY. I wouldn't know, sir.

Representative FORD. You don't know?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know.

Representative FORD. Do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a 7.65 Mauser?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't know that.