Chapter XXX: Part 30

Mr. COLE. I now hand you a yellow sheet of paper, which has already been introduced into evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 110, and for the record I will state that this consists of an interlinear translation from Russian into English. The Russian script on this document has been identified as being that of George Bouhe an acquaintance of the Oswald's, and the English script as being that of Marina Oswald. Marina herself identified this as her handwriting, and she stated that Bouhe was teaching her English by writing out the Russian and having her translate into English. As far as I know this is the only standard we have of Marina's handwriting in the Latin alphabet. Mr. Cole. I ask you whether you have examined Commission Exhibit 110?

Mr. COLE. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. Have you attempted to compare the signature "A. J. Hidell" on Commission Exhibit 819 with the Latin or English printing, or writing rather, in Exhibit 110, to determine whether they were both written by the same person?

Mr. COLE. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. And what is your conclusion?

Mr. COLE. My conclusion is that the author of the writing in the Latin alphabet on Exhibit 110 is a possible author of the name "A. J. Hidell" on 819, but I do not offer that as a definite conclusion. I say "possible author" because I observed a similarity in the particular parts where close comparison is possible, namely, with respect to the lowercase letter "d," of which one example is found in the word "day" on the left side of the lower one-third of Exhibit 110. The similarity consists in the degree of roundness of the body of the letter, and the fairly short and thin loop or the upper extension of the letter "d," plus a similarity with respect to the terminal stroke of that letter, the circumstance that it is not joined continuously with the letter following.

Another similarity is observed in the double "l's" of the word "especially," which is on the last line at the right side of 110, and here we have a similarity with respect to the proportion of the height of those letters relative to other small letters.

There is no opportunity for making a more extensive comparison between the name "A. J. Hidell" on 819 with this standard writing. And on that basis I would say only that the author of the standard could be regarded as a possible author of the questioned signature.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, would the production of Cyrillic writing, that is writing in the Russian language, be useful to you in evaluating the signature on 819?

Mr. COLE. I believe not.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain that?

Mr. COLE. Well, ordinarily a person who--I might say this, that the construction in writing one alphabet and the other would be completely different--that one would develop habits along different lines. It could not be expected that there would be a close translation of habits from one alphabet into another.

Mr. EISENBERG. Is enough writing present in 819 so that you believe you could make a definite identification if you had a sufficient standard on which to base your comparison?

Mr. COLE. Yes; I think so.

Mr. EISENBERG. If we obtained a greater standard, that is, a more voluminous standard, of the handwriting of Marina Oswald or other persons, would you undertake to make the examination and to submit your result, either in the form of testimony or by written communication to us, Mr. Cole?

Mr. COLE. Yes; I would be quite willing to.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may we state on the record that the Commission is requesting Mr. Cole to do this, if we can obtain a better standard, and that we will attempt to obtain such a standard?

Mr. McCLOY. Very well.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, referring to 110 again for a moment, can you characterize the degree of skill with which the writing is produced, that is the English or Latin alphabet present on 110?

Mr. COLE. I would say it is an average degree of skill, fairly good based upon the perfection of letter forms, regularity of proportions, speed of writing--I would say fairly good.

Mr. EISENBERG. Would it require much practice in the use of the Latin alphabet to attain the degree of skill evidenced in 110?

Mr. COLE. Well, it would certainly take some practice. It is not the writing of a novice in forming these particular letters.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you expand a little on what you mean by "some practice"? A week's practice, or a month's practice, or a year's practice?

Mr. COLE. Of course, this depends on how intensive the practice is, but I would certainly say more than a week's practice.

Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Cole, have you examined the Russian script, have you attempted to make anything out of such Russian script as we have of Marina Oswald, have you seen standard forms?

Mr. COLE. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. McCLOY. Might it not be helpful to look at some of that to see whether there is anything you can make out of that that would help you in the----

Mr. COLE. I am inclined to doubt it, but I would be quite willing to take a look at it.

Mr. McCLOY. I can understand your reasons for doubting it but there may be something that we have here--we have here, have we not?

Mr. EISENBERG. Yes, we do.

Mr. McCLOY. A very substantial number, quantities of Marina's writing in Russian, and it may be that there is something you can glean from that if you would look at it perhaps before you go.

Mr. EISENBERG. I will make arrangements for Mr. Cole to see that writing, Mr. Chairman.

Any further question on this Fair Play for Cuba Committee card?

Mr. McCLOY. No, I don't think so.

Mr. EISENBERG. Finally then, Mr. Cole, I show you an item consisting of a letter on a yellow piece of stationery, apparently torn from a legal-size pad, addressed to Leslie Welding Co. from "Lee H. Oswald"--signed "Lee H. Oswald"--and with an address handprinted, and reading "Dear Sir, this is to explain that I have moved permanently to Dallas, Texas, where I have found other employment," and so forth, and I ask you whether you have examined that item?

Mr. COLE. I have.

Mr. EISENBERG. May that be admitted as 826, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.

(The item referred to was marked 826, and received into evidence.)

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to compare this item with the standards to determine whether it had been produced by the author of the standards?

Mr. COLE. I did.

Mr. EISENBERG. What was your conclusion?

Mr. COLE. It is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing is the author of the writing shown by Exhibit 826.

Mr. EISENBERG. Can you briefly give us some of the reasons for that conclusion?

Mr. COLE. Yes; there is an agreement in a great many details between this letter, 826, some of which I think are more significant than others.

One of the really highly significant points is the formation of the letter "x" in the word "Texas" which has already been mentioned in connection with other exhibits. Now, this word appears on 826, on the second----

Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me. That exhibit should be, have been, 820A. Let's refer to it from now on as 820A.

(The item referred to was renumbered.)

Mr. COLE. The exhibit just mentioned is understood to be 820A, and the word "Texas" appears on the second line of the body of the letter. The method of forming this "x" is first to construct a =U=-like form, that is, a form having two cusps with a shallow curve connecting the two, and then to make the crossbar in such a manner that it comes very close to the second cusp. This is a very unusual variation of the letter "x," and it appears in the standard writing--also in the word "Texas"--in several places, chart B, items 4, 12, and 13.

The writing shows the tendency to exaggerate certain approach strokes or initial strokes of letters. In the body of Exhibit 821 this is evident in the letter "i" of "is," which is the second word of the first line, and moving along that same first line we have the same effect for the first stroke of the "t" of "to" and the "t" of "that." Then moving down to the second paragraph, third word, the same effect is shown, and this is illustrated in the standard writing in two places, one good example being chart A, item 1, the word "to," the same chart, item 3, the word "the."

The construction of the small letter "p" has been mentioned heretofore, has been characterized by an absence of an upper extension, that is, no extension that passes above the height of the body of the letter, and the body of the letter is made in the form of an arch, rather than a circle closed against the staff. This is shown in the words "presently" and "employ," which are in the last line of writing of this exhibit, and this is repeated in the standard writing as shown by chart A, item 2, the word "support," item 3, the word "port" and the word "transportation."

There is a very close agreement in all details of the signature of Lee H. Oswald on this letter with the several examples of the signatures shown on these charts, chart A, item 15, chart B, item 15, and chart C, item 6, second to the last line.

The word "Texas," including this highly significant "x," is repeated as the last word on this letter.

These constitute some of my reasons for believing that Exhibit 820A is in the handwriting of the author of the standard writing.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to recapitulate then, all the standards which you have examined and which were put in evidence, and all of the questioned documents which you have examined and which were put in evidence, are in the handwriting of the same person, with the exceptions you have noted, such as "A. J. Hidell" on the penultimate exhibit, the FPCC card?

Mr. COLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cole, did you have any information concerning any identifications or nonidentifications of handwriting made by any other Federal agency in this matter?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you have any other information whatsoever concerning identification or nonidentification by anyone in this matter?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you at this point have any such information?

Mr. COLE. No, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG. That completes my examination, Mr. McCloy.

Mr. McCLOY. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCLOY. Commission Exhibit 776 is a series of checks which have been endorsed by Oswald, some in lead pencil and some in ink. Some of those endorsements seem to be, rather the handwriting seems to be, very irregular, loose, malformed, certain other ones very clear and quite regular, and in comparison with other standards of Oswald's I find some difficulty in conforming the signatures on certain of these endorsements to those standards. I wonder if you would look at these and tell me whether you have any comments in regard to the comments I have made about this--about these checks? The first two or three there seem to exemplify what I am talking about.

Mr. COLE. In my opinion the endorsements on these checks show a moderately wide range of writing habit, and they also show variations which may be due to an attitude about the act of writing, and I am thinking especially of the more distorted signatures, such as that appearing on No. 2408; and by attitude I mean that a person might find the act of writing very inconvenient or distasteful or might actually be experiencing some strong emotion at the particular time.

Mr. McCLOY. Could it be, might I interrupt, could it be that he was writing while he was in movement here, while he was in an automobile or some jolting vehicle?

Mr. COLE. Well, that can affect handwriting, of course, but I believe it is unlikely, because the first letter of his name is well formed. The first letter of "Lee" on this endorsement of 2408 shows as much skill and control as any of the better signatures.

Mr. McCLOY. You think maybe something irritated him in between?

Mr. COLE. That is a possibility. I think most people find the act of writing, especially writing a signature, a pleasant thing to do. I think that is one reason why people develop a somewhat higher skill.

Mr. McCLOY. It depends on whether it is an endorsement of a check or a drawing of the check.

Mr. COLE. That could make a difference.

Mr. McCLOY. Well, thank you very much.

Mr. COLE. Yes, sir.

(Whereupon, at 2:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

_Tuesday, May 5, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN, JOHN LESTER QUIGLEY, AND JAMES PATRICK HOSTY, JR.

The President's Commission met at 9:25 a.m. on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel; Howard P. Willens, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN W. FAIN

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Fain, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of members of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, including yourself, who interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald or other important witnesses, before and after the assassination, and concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, both before and after.

We will also take the testimony today of Mr. Belmont, one of your superiors. Would you please rise, Mr. Fain, and raise your right hand and be sworn. You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FAIN. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Stern will conduct the examination. Mr. Stern.

Mr. STERN. Yes, sir.

Mr. Fain, would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. FAIN. John Wythe Fain.

Mr. STERN. And your address?

Mr. FAIN. 12711 Pebblebrook, Houston 24, Tex.

Mr. STERN. What is your education, Mr. Fain, at the college level?

Mr. FAIN. After graduation from Weatherford High School in 1926, I entered Weatherford Junior College at Weatherford, Tex., which I finished in 2 years in 1928. After teaching school for about 4 years, I entered the University of Texas, in the summer of 1933. I finished my prelaw work, and in 1936, the spring of that year, I received my LL.B. degree in law from the University of Texas.

Mr. STERN. Are you a member of the bar, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. I am a member of the Texas State Bar.

Mr. STERN. Can you summarize briefly your employment experience after receiving your law degree and before joining the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. FAIN. I will have to go back just a little bit there. In 1932 I ran for the office of representative in the State Legislature from Weatherford, Tex., my home city in Parker County, my home county, and served two terms, no opposition on the second term, and then I did not seek reelection at the end of the second term. I chose to go on and get my law degree at the University of Texas. Then, in 1937 I became employed. Robert B. Anderson, whom I suppose you know----

The CHAIRMAN. Former Secretary of the Treasury.

Mr. FAIN. Former Secretary of the Treasury, yes; he and I were good friends, and it happened, that he was in the adjoining county of Johnson, which touched my county, Parker. I had met him in Weatherford Junior College, and we were in the same debating society at Weatherford Junior College, and I served in the Texas State Legislature with him, I sat in some of his law classes at the University of Texas, and then he was instrumental in giving me or getting me appointed to, a position as district supervisor of the Texas Unemployment Compensation Commission. It is now known as the Texas Employment Commission.

I was in charge of investigations of claims for unemployment insurance, and I served in that capacity at Waco, Tex., until on September 8 of 1942 I entered the FBI. Of course, I made my application prior to that. I served in the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a law-trained special agent until October 29 of 1962, upon which date I retired voluntarily.

Mr. STERN. Can you describe briefly your experience in the FBI.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. After finishing my training session here at the seat of government. I believe that lasted 12 weeks at that time, I took my practical experience here for a couple of weeks, and then was assigned to the Chicago, Ill., field office, where I remained for a period of approximately 4 months. I received a transfer to Oklahoma City, where I was 3 weeks, and then they stationed me at Tulsa, Okla., as a resident agent, where I remained approximately a year. I then was transferred to San Francisco, Calif., where I remained for approximately 2 years; and in December of 1945 I was transferred to Dallas, Tex., where I remained for approximately 5 years in the head office there, division office in Dallas, and then I was sent to Fort Worth in 1949 as a resident agent of the FBI, and remained there until I voluntarily retired on October 29, 1962.

Mr. STERN. Now, would you describe the relationship between the Fort Worth office and the Dallas office.

Mr. STERN. Well, the Dallas office is the headquarters city to which I was originally assigned and, of course, in that area distances are rather great between the cities, so we have what is known as resident agencies, there being at that time 10 agents in the Fort Worth office.

(At this point in the proceedings Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

And we had agents, of course, at Lubbock and Amarillo and Wichita Falls, Sherman, Harris, and the other cities in order for economy reasons, to save travel. It would be a rather expensive operation to go from Dallas to those other areas.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, did you specialize in any particular area of FBI work or were your assignments general?

Mr. FAIN. My assignments were comparatively general up until, I would say, about 1951, at which time I specialized mostly in security matters. Most of my investigations after 1951 were security-type investigations.

Mr. STERN. This is true----

Mr. FAIN. However, I did handle--excuse me, I did continue to handle--other types of investigations, too.

Mr. STERN. This is true until your retirement?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Were you in charge of the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald until the time of your retirement?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; up until the time we closed the case--I don't recall the exact date, it can be verified from the report--but, I think we closed the case, following his interview on August 26.

Mr. STERN. Well to the extent----

Mr. FAIN. I want to correct that. It was August 14.

Mr. STERN. We will get to that, Mr. Fain. But to the extent the case was being investigated during your tenure, were you in charge of the case?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; the case was assigned to me.

Mr. STERN. Fine. That is all I want right now.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. How many other cases on an average would you be in charge of during this period from 1960 until retirement?

Mr. FAIN. From 1960 until the time of retirement?

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. I don't have any exact figure on that, but I suppose I would have 45 to 50 cases.

Mr. STERN. At anytime?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a seven-page mimeographed report marked "Report of John W. Fain," dated May 12, 1960. Can you identify that report?

(Marked for identification No. 821.)

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report.

Mr. STERN. Were you responsible for preparing this entire report, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; I was.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed the report in preparation for your testimony today?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is the report correct?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you want to correct in the report?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is it complete in covering the events described?

Mr. FAIN. It is.

Mr. STERN. So that you have no additions or corrections?

Mr. FAIN. No additions or corrections.

Mr. STERN. Let me ask you, first, Mr. Fain, about a couple of symbols that appear on the first page of the report. The report is characterized as "Internal Security R." What does the "R" mean?

Mr. FAIN. It stands for "Russia."

Mr. STERN. At the end of the synopsis on the first page are the letters "RUC." Can you tell us what that means?

Mr. FAIN. That is a symbol to save typing and stenographic effort and so forth. It is known to all agents, and it means "Referred Upon Completion," "RUC," "Referred Upon Completion," to the office of origin actually. In other words, it indicates that the investigation there at that point where it was conducted has been completed and we are referring it back.

Mr. STERN. To an office which had prime responsibility?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; in this case I suppose it was the Bureau in Washington. I see the Bureau file number up there at the top.

Mr. STERN. I see. Do you recall, Mr. Fain, how you were assigned to investigate this matter which is entitled in this report "Funds Transmitted to Resident of Russia"?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

We received a communication, or rather the Dallas office did, from Bureau to the effect that there was an indication that application had been made by Mrs. Oswald, Marguerite C. Oswald, for a draft, purchase transfer of funds, to be sent to Lee Harvey Oswald over in Russia, and I was given the assignment to contact her and find out all I could about the circumstances.

Mr. STERN. Concerning the transfer of funds?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; you will notice that the title in this case is "Funds Transmitted to Residents of Russia," that was the type of inquiry.

Mr. STERN. To your recollection, had you ever before this time heard the name "Lee Harvey Oswald" or any other member of the Oswald family?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I believe--let's see, April 27, 1960, I talked to Robert Lee in an effort to locate his mother.

Mr. STERN. By this time, Mr. Fain, I mean the time covered by your report, not the date of the report.

Mr. FAIN. Just what I read in the newspapers about his having gone over into Russia. The papers played it up.

Mr. STERN. Did you have any official responsibility in connection with Lee Harvey Oswald before the time covered by this report?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir; no, I did not.

Mr. STERN. On page 2 of the report--is this a record of an interview that you held, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. It is. It is a record of the interview that I conducted.

Mr. STERN. Is this a form normally used for reporting interviews?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. What is your practice or what was your practice, while an FBI agent, in making interviews? Would you make notes of the interview as you interviewed a subject?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Are you familiar with any shorthand method?

Mr. FAIN. I had a course in shorthand and, of course, still know some of the symbols and, at that time, did use it, mixed it up with my other English as I wrote it. I did use it.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell from this report when you made the interview?

Mr. FAIN. I interviewed Robert Lee Oswald, who was the brother, older brother, of Lee Harvey Oswald, the subject of this case, on April 27, 1960, at Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. STERN. Can you tell the Commission where that appears from your report?

Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview?

(At this point in the proceedings, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. The date of the interview is located on the lower left-hand corner, and also the place of the interview.

Mr. STERN. When did you transcribe--or, first, how would you do that normally?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I dictated this on May 2, 1960. It evidently was transcribed by the stenographer, as noted, on the upper right-hand corner--this is a little dim--but it looks like May 6, 1960. This is a very old copy.

Mr. STERN. You would dictate this to a secretary, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Some of it I dictated on the dictaphone, some of it I would do by rough draft and send by mail to Dallas, and if I happened to be in Dallas, I would dictate to the stenographer.

Mr. STERN. Would you ordinarily preserve your rough notes of the interview after you dictated your report?

Mr. FAIN. Not after it gets in this form, because this contains all the information in the notes we have. In other words, we put everything right in. Now this is supposed to be an exact transcript of the information. It is not a recording of the information. I don't mean to leave that impression.

Mr. STERN. And you would normally destroy your notes?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; unless there was some--there would be no reason to keep my notes, once I put all the information I was assured was in here. Once that is true I destroyed them.

Mr. STERN. I think these reports largely speak for themselves, Mr. Fain, but I would like to ask you a few details to clarify statements in the report.

On page 3 in the report of your interview of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, you say in the second line, "She volunteered for interview." What does that mean in this connection?

Mr. FAIN. You will notice that on the lower left-hand corner it indicates I talked to her on the 28th, April 28, which was the day after I talked to her son Robert Lee, and evidently he had gotten in touch with her on the same afternoon that I talked to him or that night. Anyway she knocked on the door the next day and wanted to talk to me; and she came in voluntarily. I believe Robert told me that he would get in touch with her. He gave me her address, at least, and I was going to send out a lead to have her interviewed down there, but she came in to talk to me, voluntarily.

Mr. STERN. Would you look at page 4 of your report, Mr. Fain, the fourth full paragraph from the top of the page, the paragraph that begins, "Mrs. Oswald stated," and the last sentence of that paragraph reads, "Mrs. Oswald stated that she would not have been surprised to learn that Lee had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, but that it had never entered her mind that he might go to Russia or might try to become a citizen there." As far as you can remember, is that accurately what she said?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; that is as she said, I put it down. She seemed very much upset that he had gone to Russia.

Mr. STERN. Did she explain that to you?

Mr. FAIN. None other than this. In other words, she said she wouldn't have been surprised that he had gone to, say, South America or Cuba, she was taken aback by learning he had gone to Russia. You see, he had told her he was going over to New Orleans to go to work over there, and she was apparently very surprised that he had taken this boat to Europe, to Russia.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, in your report of your interview with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, you quote several letters and refer to other specific bits of information. How did you get that so accurately?

Mr. FAIN. She had all of those in her purse. She had all those clippings that had appeared in the paper, and she had quite a stack of them there, and I got the information out of those at the time.

Mr. STERN. She displayed them to you and let you copy them?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; she displayed them to me, that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, are there any other questions any of you would like to ask Mr. Fain? He has stated that everything he knows concerning this matter is contained in his written report.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.

Representative FORD. Is it the practice of the Bureau to check with relatives of those who defect or make an attempt to defect to the Soviet Union?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I was--my primary motive here was--trying to locate her. I wanted to talk to her. If I had been able to talk to her, the mother, I probably wouldn't have contacted Robert. But he was the only one that I could locate there that knew anything about it, about where she might be, so I, in the course of things, interviewed him to try to find out what I could find out from him.

Representative FORD. I am more concerned about the overall policy. Whenever an individual makes an attempt to defect or does defect, is it the policy of the FBI to subsequently interview relatives of the individual who tried or did defect?

Mr. FAIN. Mr. Ford, I am unable to answer that because I am not versed in overall policy, and I am sorry. I am not trying to avoid your question, but I just actually don't know.

Representative FORM. What prompted you then in your capacity to interview----

Mr. FAIN. Robert?

Representative FORD. Either Robert or Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. FAIN. Well, I was instructed to get in touch with her and find out what the situation was. The only way I could get the information was to talk to her, and I talked to Robert only in connection with my attempts to locate her.

Representative FORD. But your instructions came from whom?

Mr. FAIN. I don't have the memorandum or communication that came in here in connection with this, but it came from the Bureau, I am sure, through the Dallas office.

Representative FORD. And you were working out of Dallas?

Mr. FAIN. Right. My supervisor over in Dallas, no doubt, either called me or else very likely he wrote an assignment and mailed it to me in Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. Your assignment was really to check with the mother, both, or all?

Mr. FAIN. Actually, I don't recall how the assignment was worded, I really don't. I haven't seen it for over a year and a half, and I just don't recall exactly how that came.

Representative FORD. But the only reason for such an interview was the fact that the son had gone to Russia and either defected or attempted to do so; was that the basis of the investigation?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir. We wanted to find out the circumstances and about these funds and any information we could ascertain and, of course, it is always important in this type of case to find out whether or not any of these--especially intelligence agents or anyone like that might contact these people and try to get information from them. We try to get these people to let us know if anything like that happens.

Representative FORD. That was really the purpose of the interview or investigation you conducted?

Mr. FAIN. Let me see if I can find out. In this paragraph 4 there is an indication----

Representative FORD. Paragraph 4 on what page?

Mr. FAIN. Paragraph 4 on page 2. "He stated he had no contact in any manner or form with any individual known to him to be a Soviet official or affiliated in any way with Soviet establishments. He also advised that as far as he knows neither his mother or other members of his family had had any contact whatsoever with Soviet officials or with Soviet establishments."

I explained to him the jurisdiction of the FBI, that the FBI had jurisdiction in internal security matters in the United States, and Robert told me that he would immediately contact the FBI in the event he was contacted by Soviet officials. Then I also asked him, as is contained in that final paragraph on the same page, "Oswald stated that neither he nor his mother as far as he knew had been requested to furnish any items of personal identification to Lee Oswald in Russia. He said he would immediately contact the FBI in the event any information like that came to his attention."

Representative FORD. These were the only interviews you had with either one of them?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; at that time, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Can I ask a question?

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have one at any other time?

Mr. FAIN. These were the first interviews. We will get to those later. Do you want to go into those?

Mr. McCLOY. Never mind. We will get to those in due course. But wasn't the touch-off on this investigation the fact that a transfer order or an attempted remittance was being sent to Oswald in Russia by his mother?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. That was the thing that prompted the inquiry, wasn't it?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Did Mrs. Oswald give you any reason for her statement she would not have been surprised if Lee Oswald had gone to Cuba or some South American country? Did she explain that statement?

Mr. FAIN. No; she didn't. She just--of course, she was all upset and bothered by his having gone to Russia, and she expressed great surprise that he had gone to Russia, and she said just casually or during the course of the conversation she wouldn't have been surprised for him to have gone, say, to South America or to Cuba, but to go to Russia, she was totally surprised and taken aback.

Senator COOPER. She didn't give you any reason why she would not have been surprised----

Mr. FAIN. No; she didn't go into that.

Senator COOPER. Whether he had said anything about Cuba or South America.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Fain. Do you have other questions?

Mr. STERN. I have other questions for him. I thought we might break it up in the order of his reports.

The CHAIRMAN. Go right ahead.

Mr. STERN. One last question at this stage, Mr. Fain: Did Mrs. Oswald indicate to you in any way that she thought Lee Harvey Oswald had gone to Russia in any capacity other than as a private citizen?

Mr. FAIN. No; she did not. She apparently didn't know why he had gone at all. She was surprised he had gone in the first place.

Mr. STERN. She did not suggest in any way that he might have been an agent of the United States or serving United States interests in Russia?

Mr. FAIN. I think she did remark something about she believed he was a secret agent. Maybe she was clutching at anything----

Mr. STERN. She did? Is that covered in that report?

Mr. FAIN. In one of these reports I believe it is.

Mr. STERN. I am talking about this one, as of this time.

Mr. FAIN. No; I believe that came in something else. She told evidently the State Department in Washington, D.C.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. That is where that came from.

Mr. STERN. I am asking whether she suggested this to you at the time of your interview of Mrs. Oswald on April 28, 1960.

Mr. FAIN. No; I don't recall anything of that. I have confused that.

Mr. STERN. Mr. Chairman, may we have the report admitted into evidence?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be and it will take the next number.

Mr. STERN. That was marked for identification 821.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. No. 821 may be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 821 for identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you a report of 11 pages dated July 3, 1961, entitled "Lee Harvey Oswald." Can you identify this report for us, and we will number it for identification No. 822.

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report. It is dated July 3 of 1961.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report recently in preparation for your testimony today?

Mr. FAIN. I have.

Mr. STERN. Is the report complete in all respects of the subject matter it covers?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; it is.

Mr. STERN. Is it accurate in all respects of the subject matter it covers?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there any addition or correction you would like to make to the report as it stands now?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir.

Mr. STERN. The report shows on the cover page, Mr. Fain, that a copy was sent to the Office of Naval Intelligence in New Orleans, La. Can you tell us why that was done?

Mr. FAIN. Well, this investigation at this time was under internal security category R, and you will notice that predicated on information received by a communication of January 11, 1961, from District Intelligence Office, Naval District, New Orleans, La., advising that Oswald, who had attempted to defect in Russia in October 1959, and who was a member of the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve had been given an undesirable discharge from the U.S. Marine Corps Reserve on August 17, 1960.

Mr. STERN. When you say the investigation was predicated on this information, what precisely do you mean?

Mr. FAIN. That was the reason that this report was initiated from that incoming communication from New Orleans.

Mr. STERN. And how did this information come to you? Was it sent to you directly, if you know, from the New Orleans Naval District or did it come from FBI----

Mr. FAIN. It would have come through Dallas, the headquarters division office in Dallas.

Mr. STERN. But so far as you know was it sent from New Orleans to Dallas or from New Orleans to FBI headquarters in Washington and then disseminated to Dallas?

Mr. FAIN. I expect it came directly to the Dallas office. It could have been, the office there might have gotten a copy of it, might have gotten the original, and this might have been a copy. I just don't recall.

Mr. STERN. Were you instructed to make this investigation or did you initiate it yourself on the strength of this information from the naval district in New Orleans?

Mr. FAIN. There again I believe that the supervisor in Dallas asked that this case be--or did reopen it and asked for a background investigation. It looks like this is a background type of investigation on the individual Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. STERN. When you say "reopen," Mr. Fain, does that mean there was a case opened previously on Lee Oswald?

Mr. FAIN. No; I used the wrong term. I confused it with this report. This looks a different type of investigation, this "Funds Transmitted to Residents of Russia."

Mr. STERN. That was not an investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald as such?

Mr. FAIN. That is right.

Mr. STERN. This was actually the first report concerning the individual?

Mr. FAIN. That is correct.

Mr. STERN. So that did this represent the opening of a case on Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Yes; it did.

Mr. STERN. And as far as you know, there was no earlier investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald as such; is that correct?

Mr. FAIN. I believe that is correct.

Mr. STERN. I am just asking you of your own knowledge.

Mr. FAIN. That is right.

Mr. STERN. You say this was a background investigation. What do you mean by that, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Well, we always ascertain his correct name and aliases, and residences, where he previously lived, his employment, his citizenship status, his nationality background, his education, his military record, whether or not he had any relatives, close relatives, in the Armed Forces; and we get a physical description of him, identification record, and where possible we always get a photograph; and his mother furnished a copy of the photograph to us on April 28, 1960.

Mr. STERN. On the first page of the report, the initial "C" appears after the synopsis. What does that mean, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. That means closed.

Mr. STERN. What does that indicate to you in terms of the investigation?

Mr. FAIN. Well, it indicated that we obtained the information concerning this person, to identify him, as to who he was, something about him, about his background; it appearing there was no further need for investigation at that time, we closed the case.

Mr. STERN. Your report indicates at page 8 that the files of the office of naval intelligence in Louisiana were checked. Was that done at your request, if you recall? Did you check those files?

Mr. FAIN. I did not. That would have been checked in the New Orleans division.

Mr. STERN. Would this have been done at your request or on the instructions of someone else?

Mr. FAIN. I am of the opinion that that information probably came along with the other information or subsequent to the other information on which this case was predicated. I don't recall asking them to make any check like that.

Mr. STERN. The first paragraph on page 1 reads a little differently. It says, "Information received by communication from the Naval District," and on page 8 you refer to a check of the files of Naval Intelligence.

Mr. FAIN. It sounds like a check was made, and they had made some information available to us, and I incorporated it in this report.

Mr. STERN. "They" is--who do you mean by "they"?

Mr. FAIN. The New Orleans Division of the FBI.

Mr. STERN. Of the FBI?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. But the first indication on page 1, when you refer to information received by communication from the District Intelligence Office, does that seem to indicate a check was made by the FBI office in New Orleans or this information was delivered by the Office of Naval Intelligence voluntarily, without request?

Mr. FAIN. I don't recall ever dictating a request. It could have happened, but you must remember it has been over a year and a half since I referred to these things. And----

Mr. STERN. Sure.

Mr. FAIN. That just sounds like it is a communication we received from there, and that we opened the case based on that information. That would be my opinion now.

Mr. STERN. But you don't know why they would have been sending you that information?

Mr. FAIN. That can be ascertained.

Mr. STERN. Yes. We, perhaps, can find out from other witnesses if you don't remember, and if you don't know, just tell us that.

Mr. FAIN. I do not know; I don't recall that.

Mr. STERN. All right. On page 10, the top paragraph, in reference to a review of the files of the passport office of the Department of State, again do you recall whether this was done at your request by someone else?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I do not. It could have been requested by letter out of the Dallas office or it might have been that it was made up here at seat of Government.

Mr. STERN. But in any event did you check these files at the State Department?

Mr. FAIN. I did not.

Mr. STERN. The passport office?

Mr. FAIN. No. My investigative jurisdiction was the Fort Worth area and vicinity.

Mr. STERN. Again would you summarize your recollection of the purpose and direction of the investigation at this stage, at the time covered by this report. What do you recall to have been the purpose and direction of the investigation?

Mr. FAIN. At this particular point it seems we were looking at this individual, opened the case to find out who he was and see if he was any kind of an internal threat, a threat to the internal security of our country.

Mr. STERN. What was your evaluation of that question as a result of your investigation?

Mr. FAIN. At that time we--there was nothing appearing that he was of any potential danger to the security of--I was trying to find out whether or not, you will notice on page 9 there the last paragraph, to see whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party in Fort Worth, and my check of our confidential sources showed that there was no knowledge available, no information available, that he was a member of the Communist Party. That was supposed primarily my immediate objective, to find out whether or not he was connected with the Communist Party there in Fort Worth, in addition to the developing of the background information on him.

Mr. STERN. And this entered into your evaluation at the time, the fact that he was not a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; there was no indication that he was a member of the Communist Party in Fort Worth.

Mr. STERN. Was it also relevant to your evaluation that he was apparently living in Russia at the time?

Mr. FAIN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. STERN. Was it also relevant to your conclusion about his not being a threat to the internal security of the United States that at the time he was apparently living in Russia, at the time covered by this report?

Mr. FAIN. Well, certainly we were going to keep track of him from then on, naturally, if he is over there.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, any questions? Mr. McCloy.

Mr. McCLOY. On the top of page 10, Mr. Chief Justice, this report refers to the review on May 9, 1961, of the files of the passport office. Who did make that review if you didn't make it?

Mr. FAIN. Someone, some employee of the FBI here at the seat of Government.

Mr. McCLOY. How did you know it was made?

Mr. FAIN. How did I know it was made?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. The communication concerning the results of the check were sent by mail back to Dallas, and then my supervisor sent it to me at Fort Worth.

Mr. McCLOY. That is how it came to be embodied in your report?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; and I covered it in my report.

Mr. McCLOY. I see. Have we got a copy of that? Do we have that review, the report of that review?

Mr. STERN. We will receive testimony concerning it from the Assistant to the Director of the Bureau.

Mr. McCLOY. Will we be able to examine the person who examined Mrs. Oswald and to whom apparently she said that she thought he was a secret agent, that Oswald was a secret agent?

Mr. STERN. I am sure we can arrange that. That would have been someone in the State Department.

Mr. McCLOY. That is right. But you don't know anything except what is stated in the report here?

Mr. FAIN. That is correct, as a result of a communication from this office to Dallas.

Mr. McCLOY. No further reasons that you recall in that report as to why she thought he was a secret agent or he might have been a secret agent?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I am sure I copied it from that report just like it was there. She expressed the thought that, perhaps, her son had gone to the Soviet Union as a secret agent, and the State Department was not doing enough to help him.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.

Representative FORD. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper.

Senator COOPER. Again I ask you, on page 6, the second paragraph, it states, "Mrs. Oswald also stated the subject had mentioned something about his desire to travel and said something also about the fact that he might go to Cuba." Do you remember whether or not she talked to you about that?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; that was the information that she gave me on April 28. If you will notice from the first paragraph on April 28, 1960, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald stated that was a repeat, in other words, of the information that actually was contained in this first report we mentioned a while ago.

Senator COOPER. On page 8 she stated she had not been requested to furnish any items of personal identification of the subject in Russia. What is meant by that "personal identification"?

Mr. FAIN. Well, in these espionage cases we wanted to be sure that they hadn't been contacted by the Soviet intelligence agencies for any purpose or any reason at all. We didn't know whether maybe he went over there and maybe they had gotten in touch with his parents or his relatives and demanded any information about him to verify who he was, and so forth.

Mr. McCLOY. Could you remember the photograph that Mrs. Oswald presented to you of Lee Oswald?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; I don't remember the details right now, but I believe it was a photograph of him in the service.

Mr. McCLOY. So far as you can recollect it was in uniform?

Mr. FAIN. I just don't recall the facts.

Mr. McCLOY. You don't recall that he was carrying any weapons?

Mr. FAIN. He was not. I am sure he was not carrying any weapons. I don't believe, I am certain--I don't believe--he was in uniform at all. I think it was a picture of him. The picture, as I recall it, was not a recent picture. It was 3 or 4 years old.

Mr. McCLOY. All right.

(At this point in the proceedings, Senator Cooper leaves the hearing room.)

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Stern, you may continue with the next item.

Mr. STERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May we admit Exhibit 822 for identification at this time?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted under that number.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 822 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. STERN. Mr. Fain, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 823 for identification, a report of 15 pages dated July 10, 1962. Can you identify this report for the Commission?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; this is my report dated July 10, 1962.

Mr. STERN. Have you reviewed this report in preparation for your testimony today?

Mr. FAIN. I have.

Mr. STERN. Is it correct in all respects concerning the material covered?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. STERN. Is there anything you would like to add to any of the data set forth there?

Mr. FAIN. No, sir; I believe not.

Mr. STERN. It carries on page 1 after the synopsis the symbol "P." What does that mean, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Pending, a pending case.

Mr. STERN. Now, the case was closed, I believe you told us, as of the time of your last report which was Commission No. 822. Can you tell us how this report, this Exhibit 823 for identification, came to be prepared, and how the investigation reflected in this report came to be held?

Mr. FAIN. Yes, sir; there began to appear various items of information that this subject, Lee Oswald, was preparing or was desiring to come back to the United States, and----

Mr. STERN. How did you learn this, Mr. Fain?

Mr. FAIN. Well, the various communications which I received or which our office there received, and various checks that the State Department----

Mr. STERN. Excuse me, by your office there what do you mean, Dallas?

Mr. FAIN. The communications would come over to me from Dallas from my supervisor.

Mr. STERN. Yes.

Mr. FAIN. And he would get the communications from the seat of Government.

Mr. STERN. "The seat of Government" is the way you refer in the Bureau to the Federal Bureau of Investigation?

Mr. FAIN. The Federal Bureau of Investigation or it might have come from the Washington field office here.

Mr. STERN. So the seat of Government can mean any communication from Washington, either from your field office here or from your headquarters?

Mr. FAIN. That is the way I have been referring to it as seat of Government.

Mr. STERN. I see. All right. Please continue telling us how this investigation was carried out.

Mr. FAIN. I was given the assignment to contact his folks, Mrs. Oswald, his mother, and----

Mr. STERN. By whom, if you recall, Mr. Fain? Was this an assignment that came from FBI headquarters or from----

Mr. FAIN. This incidentally, this communication, we got dated September 1, 1961, from the Washington field office. You see the seat of Government is the main headquarters, in D.C.