Chapter XV: Part 15

We kept getting calls from the FBI. They wanted this evidence up in Washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, Fritz told me, he says, "Well, I need the evidence here, I need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in Washington how can I do it?"

But we finally, the night, about midnight of Friday night, we agreed to let the FBI have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us.

Mr. DULLES. An agent of the police force, you mean?

Mr. CURRY. An agent of the FBI.

Mr. DULLES. FBI?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. There was no agent of the Dallas police that went to Washington with the evidence?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. Did that work out all right so far?

Mr. CURRY. Well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to Washington, and Fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm.

Subsequently they photographed these things in Washington and sent us copies, some 400, I think, 400 copies of different items. So far as I know, we have never received any of that evidence back. It is still in Washington, I guess.

Perhaps the Commission has it.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; the Commission is still working with it.

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. But apparently the FBI tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; they did.

Mr. RANKIN. And it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have?

Mr. CURRY. There were made, some of them, in the office down in Dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in Washington, and our only concern was this, that if this case is tried in Dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in Dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to Washington will it be available to us when we need it. If we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see?

And that was our only concern.

We got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say I got a call from Washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually.

Mr. DULLES. Have you any more questions?

Mr. McCLOY. Not at this stage.

Mr. RANKIN. Shall we convene at 2?

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Murray, do you have any?

Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Mr. McCLOY. (presiding). We are ready.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about Exhibits 709, 711 particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between Agent Hosty of the FBI and Jack Revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right?

Mr. CURRY. It was reported to me, I was given a report to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know anything about the matters described in those letters?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you know about them? Do you want to see them?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. One of the documents tells me that Lieutenant Revill states that about 2:50 p.m. on the 22d----

Mr. RANKIN. Of what?

Mr. CURRY. November 1963, that he met Special Agent Jim Hosty of the FBI in the basement of the city hall, and at that time Agent Hosty related to Revill that the subject, Oswald, was a member of the Communist Party, and that he was residing in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make any further inquiry after you got that information?

Mr. CURRY. None other than I had a report from V. J. Brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place.

Mr. RANKIN. That later report was as of April 20?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. 1964?

Mr. CURRY. The last report.

Mr. RANKIN. What was the occasion for that?

Mr. CURRY. I just asked Revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that Detective Brian was at the time.

Mr. RANKIN. Otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I believe Captain Fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to Mrs. Paine.

Mr. RANKIN. By they, who do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. Some of the FBI agents, and that he did know that Oswald apparently knew Hosty, because Hosty was present in the interrogation room.

Mr. RANKIN. By he there at that point who do you mean?

Mr. CURRY. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; but you say he knew.

Mr. CURRY. That Oswald knew Hosty.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. Because according to Fritz he said that he was quite bitter, Oswald was quite bitter toward Hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Captain Fritz learned that?

Mr. CURRY. He was in Captain Fritz's office when this statement was made, according to Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the Tippit killing?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident.

Mr. RANKIN. How did you direct that that be done?

Mr. CURRY. Just through my staff.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that in writing?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. You just told them?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that direction promptly given?

Mr. CURRY. I am sure it was passed on immediately. All orders are.

Mr. RANKIN. How soon after the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. I would say probably within the next day after we met and we decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of this.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any directions about furnishing information immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. No specific directions. After Oswald was killed, I called and I talked with Deputy Chief Stevenson of the criminal investigation division the next morning of the next day, I believe this was Monday, and we decided we should appoint an investigative group.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was that?

Mr. CURRY. That was Inspector Sawyer, headed by Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. RANKIN. Who else?

Mr. CURRY. And Captain O. A. Jones, and then I think they had some lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. Their assignment was to find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the time that Lee Oswald was killed, and to get a report from them.

I know Lieutenant Revill was also in on this, and then they would also, in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of might be left out of the reports.

And you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this investigating group.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of any of these people about conversations with Ruby immediately after the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. I believe they have some reports to that effect.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that a part of their responsibility to get those reports?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding this.

Mr. RANKIN. And you would expect the police officers to tell anything they knew at once?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. So far as you know has all of that information been supplied to the Commission?

Mr. CURRY. So far as I know.

Mr. RANKIN. It has?

Mr. CURRY. So far as I know it has been supplied.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn about the claims of some police officers that Ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you first learn that?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly, the exact date that I learned of this. But I think the first time it came to my knowledge was that Agent Sorrels of the Secret Service, sometime after this told me, he said, "Now Chief, I don't know that, they could--that I could testify to this," but he said, "immediately after Oswald was shot, I went to his cell"----

Mr. RANKIN. Whose cell?

Mr. CURRY. To Oswald's--I mean to Ruby's cell, "and I went in and talked to him, told him who I was, and"----

Mr. RANKIN. Was anyone else present?

Mr. CURRY. There was a patrolman and a guard, I think, and perhaps a detective.

Mr. RANKIN. Who were they?

Mr. CURRY. I believe Dean was present, Sergeant Dean, I don't know who these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been made.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. Sorrels told me, he said, "I asked Ruby why he did it and he said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department couldn't do it."

I believe he also said, "I couldn't think, stand the thought of having Jacqueline Kennedy having to return to Dallas and go through a trial for him." I told him this was not for the Secret Service or not for publication, I just asked him the question but he said, "I did not warn him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so I don't know that I would be allowed to testify to this."

Mr. RANKIN. When did Sorrels first tell you that?

Mr. CURRY. This was the--it seems to me like several days after this occurred.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you report that to anyone?

Mr. CURRY. I believe I told Chief Stevenson about it or whoever was--or perhaps Captain or Inspector Sawyer or some of them. This information was relayed on to the investigating group.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they recorded it any place?

Mr. CURRY. No; we called the officers, when I say we, the investigating team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when they first gave you any information that they knew of any such conversation?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that; no, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard Ruby say anything beyond what you have described Mr. Sorrels to say?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. If your records show that the first time any such information was communicated to you, was around February 18, 1964, would you think that was a correct record?

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it is. When Sorrels, if that is when he says it is when it was, perhaps that is when it was. But this was prior to Ruby's trial that I know that he came forward with this information and he said, "It is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of Ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he had not warned him of his constitutional rights.

But that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he said, "You ought to at least talk to Henry Wade about it and he might be able to get that in his testimony on that basis."

Mr. RANKIN. You think that Dean was one of the officers involved who overheard it?

Mr. CURRY. I believe he was.

Mr. RANKIN. And who else?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall now. It is in our reports.

Mr. RANKIN. Was the officer Archer?

Mr. CURRY. I believe Officer Archer was there.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it Officer Newcomb?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you believe whether they testified to something like that at the trial?

Mr. CURRY. I was not present during the trial but I understand they did testify.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether or not those officers made a report about what they knew about the killing of Oswald prior to February 18?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe they did.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't think they made any report to you or to the FBI or anybody else?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. So if they did not include such information in any report or statement prior to February 18, 1964, you don't know it?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct, I do not know it.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when Agent Sorrels told the chief that he had heard this?

Mr. RANKIN. I don't recall the date.

Mr. CURRY. But it was--I don't recall the date but it was sometime after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it 1 day or 2 days?

Mr. CURRY. It was several days but it was prior to the trial of Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it a week later?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was several weeks, I would say, but prior to the trial, Sorrels talked to me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case.

"Some of the things that Ruby told me immediately following the shooting of Oswald," and he said, "I don't think I can testify to it, but you might talk to Mr. Wade and he might be able to get the testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just overheard the conversation."

Mr. McCLOY. This was a substantial period after the date?

Mr. CURRY. The assassination.

Mr. McCLOY. The date of the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And the date that Sorrels was alleged to have heard this from Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Was it before or after Christmas?

Mr. CURRY. I believe it was after Christmas. I just couldn't be sure because I was not----

Mr. RANKIN. Where did the conversation occur?

Mr. CURRY. On the telephone.

Mr. RANKIN. Was anybody present?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr RANKIN. Did you make a written record of the information?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I just told Chief Stevenson, who is in charge of criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that time; that Oswald was--I mean that Ruby was talking to Sorrels, and to see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then made a report.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell Chief Stevenson at that time what Sorrels had told you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether he made any record of it?

Mr. CURRY. I doubt that he did.

Mr. RANKIN. You haven't tried to find out?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any practice in the police force about recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to Oswald and to the media--do you recall what you said about that?

Mr. CURRY. I believe I told them it had been reported that we had an FBI report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from Chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of Hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as Oswald's.

Mr. RANKIN. Was this told to a news conference or over the TV?

Mr. CURRY. Well, the TV was there. It was not a news conference. I was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. I only told them I believed that we had some other evidence, but I didn't tell them what it was.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had against Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so; I don't recall it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against Oswald concerning the Tippit shooting?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't believe I made any comment.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence?

Mr. CURRY. I believe this was on Friday, the 22d, during the late evening.

Mr. RANKIN. Is it a common practice for you or someone for the police department to tell about the evidence that you had?

Mr. CURRY. It wouldn't be an uncommon practice. There is no law against it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you often do it then?

Mr. CURRY. Well, I would say this was not really unusual. It might be--this was an exceptional case; ordinarily I am not involved in these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an unusual thing to say.

Mr. RANKIN. Someone from the police department often does it; is that right?

Mr. CURRY. Well, frequently, if they are asked about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom?

Mr. CURRY. Not by intercom. It would be--they are brought into--when a prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--I mean the visitor--on the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. They talk through by telephone. There is a glass that separates them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you monitor any conversations between Lee Oswald and his brother Robert, or Lee Oswald and Marina at any time?

Mr. CURRY. I did not, and I don't know of any. We don't have any way of doing it. I mean we have no setup for doing this.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know of any that was done?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. RANKIN. In regard to arrangements, do you know the Texas law as to how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required?

Mr. CURRY. Excuse me now; I am not an attorney.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. It is my understanding that, so far in Texas, being brought immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of that court's business.

Mr. RANKIN. Your law----

Mr. CURRY. When they are in session.

Mr. RANKIN. Your law says he shall be brought immediately.

Mr. CURRY. Immediately, but it has been----

Mr. RANKIN. But in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice of----

Mr. CURRY. During the normal course of the court's business. This was actually unusual because this type of arraignment--because usually it would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever precautions we could to see that he was given his--we were not violating his civil rights. That is the reason that we did arraign him in the city hall. Ordinarily we would have taken him before a court.

Mr. RANKIN. I didn't understand you to say that the justice of the peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that.

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. He read all this to him.

Mr. RANKIN. That is, he read the complaint to him?

Mr. CURRY. The complaint, and I don't recall what all he said to him.

Mr. RANKIN. So, according to the practice in Texas at the time that he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a little earlier?

Mr. CURRY. A little earlier, actually.

Mr. McCLOY. Were you present at any investigation or interrogation of Ruby?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I was not.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that Oswald made that Hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of the mistreatment?

Mr. CURRY. I was not present when this happened. This was told to me, I think Captain Fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what Fritz, the impression that Fritz got.

Mr. McCLOY. When was that? Do you have any reason to know--Captain Fritz will perhaps tell us about it--as to when that interrogation of Hosty and Mrs. Oswald took place?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. You don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. I guess that is all, except the general question I have of Chief Curry. Do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this Commission in getting at the facts?

Mr. CURRY. Not that I know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in Dallas. We thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the President in cooperating with the Secret Service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job.

After the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine Ruby went down the ramp, the Main Street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as Oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him.

And if we had it to do over again, and I think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. I understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and I understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again--you would expect and want a very different change?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And eliminate the interference by the news media?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. But what do you do now about the ordinary case? Have you changed your practices about the media at all?

Mr. CURRY. Not the ordinary cases; no.

Mr. RANKIN. And do they use the radio and TV in the police headquarters?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. RANKIN. And they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many?

Mr. CURRY. And a few is what made the difference in this.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "How did you do it?"

Mr. CURRY. They do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer.

Mr. RANKIN. That could be done today just the same?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. Because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls.

Mr. RANKIN. Don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. Now if I had it to do over again, of course, I would exclude it.

Mr. RANKIN. And you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to?

Mr. CURRY. I would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but I could do it.

Mr. RANKIN. So, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations?

Mr. CURRY. And this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. And that is what you were trying to satisfy?

Mr. CURRY. That is what I was trying to do.

Mr. RANKIN. Those are all the questions.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't think I have anything else.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you very much, Chief, for all of your help.

Mr. CURRY. Thank you for your consideration.

Mr. RANKIN. I want to offer the Exhibits 701 through 708, both inclusive.

Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 701 through 708 were received in evidence.)

TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ

Mr. McCLOY. You know the purpose of what we are here for, captain?

Mr. FRITZ. I think so.

Mr. McCLOY. We have a very broad mandate to look into all the circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in Dallas on November 22 last year, and thereafter.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand, sir.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. FRITZ. J. W. Fritz.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. FRITZ. I live in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you were born and what your education is and what your training has been as a police officer?

Mr. FRITZ. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N. Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department in January of 1921, and have been there ever since.

Mr. BALL. You started as a patrolman, did you, in the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman approximately 2 years, I am not sure of the exact time and I was then moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks there, up and down.

Mr. BALL. You are now a captain of police, are you?

Mr. FRITZ. Captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you held that office?

Mr. FRITZ. Since it was set up, I believe, in 1932 or 1933, I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. You have been head of homicide and robbery detail since 1932 or 1933?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. I have had other jobs, too. One time I had the whole CID; they didn't call it CID at that time; they called it detectives' office, but I kept the homicide and robbery under my supervision during that time. I later went back with the homicide and robbery, full time.

Mr. BALL. Is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and robbery?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we call it now the CID. It would be ordinarily called the detective division; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who is in charge of that?

Mr. FRITZ. Who is in charge of it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Of course, we are all directly under the chief, and Chief Stevenson is the head of the CID, M. W. Stevenson.

Mr. BALL. Have you had any special training in police schools or places like that?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, of course, I have had a good many years of experience, and I attempted, I still go to school to our police schools, and I now attend seminars at different places, Oklahoma University and Texas University and go to most any training school that is available.

Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you had been told the President or before November 22, 1963, you had been told that the President was coming to Dallas?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And had you taken certain precautions for his safety?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. We were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly behind it, I don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the Vice President's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did make preparation for that.

But at 10 o'clock the night before the parade, Chief Stevenson called me at home and told me that had been changed, and I was assigned with two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the Trade Mart.

Mr. BALL. Was most of your work out at the Trade Mart that day?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything was all right before the President got there. He would have been there in 10 more minutes.

Mr. BALL. Did you check the waiters who had been hired?

Mr. FRITZ. That wasn't my job.

Mr. BALL. Someone else did?

Mr. FRITZ. Someone else did; yes.

Mr. BALL. How many men did you have assigned?

Mr. FRITZ. Where?

Mr. BALL. With you at the Trade Mart.

Mr. FRITZ. Two.

Mr. BALL. Who were they?

Mr. FRITZ. Detectives Sims and Boyd.

Mr. BALL. And they are both homicide?

Mr. FRITZ. Both homicide officers; yes. I had other officers assigned to different places. I had two of my officers assigned to ride in the car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with Chief Lumpkin. That was Senkel and Turner.

Mr. BALL. You were at the Trade Mart when you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was about what time you heard that? You have a little notebook there.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have a notebook.

Mr. BALL. Did you make notes as of that time?

Mr. FRITZ. We made this, not at that time, we made this after the tragedy.

Mr. BALL. How long after?

Mr. FRITZ. We started on it real soon after, and we have been working on it ever since.

Mr. BALL. Did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was that?

Mr. FRITZ. I had several officers assist me with this, and some secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. I had my lieutenant, T. L. Baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, I think you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like this.

Of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is hard to say just who helped.

Mr. BALL. Now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you have with you, the book at which you are looking now?

Mr. FRITZ. This is the book I am talking about.

Mr. BALL. You made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general of Texas?

Mr. FRITZ. We, we didn't make it for the attorney general of Texas. At the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. We didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too.

Mr. BALL. What I want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You have a book that is of some size there?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you call that what?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, "Investigation of the Assassination of President Kennedy."

Mr. BALL. That is the same as Commission's Document No. 81B. So, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; a little index book.

Mr. BALL. An index.

Mr. FRITZ. It really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book.

Mr. BALL. I see. Now, what time did you, what time was it that you heard the President had been shot?

Mr. FRITZ. I show that he was shot at 12:35, and one of the Secret Service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor radio and Chief Stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the building there, came to me and told me that the President had been hit at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what I could do.

Mr. BALL. You say you know he was shot at 12:35?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean that is the time you heard about it?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we arrived and we checked----

Mr. BALL. What time did you hear about it?

Mr. FRITZ. Just when Chief Stevenson came to me and told me.

Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of it at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I didn't make a note of it at the time.

Mr. BALL. When you heard of this what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. Immediately left, and I told the two officers with me, Mr. Sims and Boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether it was the truth. It was only 10 minutes' time for the President's arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a true call.

When we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. We went to Parkland Hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove up in front of the hospital, we I suppose intercepted the chief, Chief Curry, between the curb and the hospital, and I told him we had had a call to the hospital but I felt we were going to the wrong place, we should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "Well, go ahead," so I don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of the crime.

Mr. BALL. Did you go directly to a building?

Mr. FRITZ. Directly to the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. BALL. What time did you arrive there?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58.

Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were there any officers there at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In the front?

Mr. FRITZ. Several officers; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who they were?

Mr. FRITZ. I couldn't give you the name of all of them.

Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got to this building?

Mr. FRITZ. Some officer told us they thought he was in that building, so we had our guns----

Mr. McCLOY. Thought who was in the building?

Mr. FRITZ. The man who did the shooting was in the building. So, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him.

Mr. BALL. Were there guards on the doors of the building at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, but I don't--there has been some question about that, but the reason I don't think that--this may differ with someone else, but I am going to tell you what I know.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. McCLOY. By all means.

Mr. FRITZ. After I arrived one of the officers asked me if I would like to have the building sealed and I told him I would.

Mr. BALL. What officer was that?

Mr. FRITZ. That is a uniformed officer, but I don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, I went upstairs and I don't know whether he did because I couldn't watch him.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors.

Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with?

Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top.

Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges.

Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window.

Mr. BALL. What did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints.

Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there?

Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures.

Mr. BALL. Day?

Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether he took the pictures or not?

Mr. FRITZ. I feel like he did but I don't know because I didn't stay to see whether he could.

Mr. BALL. You didn't know whether he took the pictures?

Mr. FRITZ. I went on searching the building. I just told them to preserve that evidence and I went right ahead.

Mr. BALL. What happened after that?

Mr. FRITZ. A few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and I told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could get over there he made pictures of that.

Mr. BALL. After the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then?

Mr. FRITZ. After the pictures had been made then I ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle.

Mr. BALL. And who did you give that to?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that I kept that at that time myself. Later I gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge?

Mr. FRITZ. On that loaded cartridge?

Mr. BALL. On that loaded cartridge.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know, I am not sure, I don't think so.

Mr. BALL. Was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. I heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. They called it most everything.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation right there that day?

Mr. FRITZ. Right at that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, I might have; I am not sure whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was a Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I am sure I did not.

Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?

Mr. FRITZ. No sir; I did not. If I did, the Mauser part, I won't be too positive about Mauser because I am not too sure about Mauser rifles myself. But I am certainly sure that I never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges.

Mr. BALL. Did you initial the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. The rifle; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't. Who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that that rifle, I didn't take the rifle with me, Lieutenant Day took that rifle, I believe, to the city hall, and later I asked him to bring it down--I don't believe I ever carried that rifle to city hall. I believe Lieutenant Day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than I.

Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address.

Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found.

Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time.

Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there at the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McCLOY. Can I ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. So in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show?

Mr. FRITZ. He could have taken mine but I let him dust first before I ejected a shell.

Mr. BALL. How long did you stay at the Texas School Book Depository after you found the rifle?

Mr. FRITZ. After he told me about this man almost, I left immediately after he told me that.

Mr. BALL. You left almost immediately after he told you that?

Mr. FRITZ. Almost after he told me that man, I felt it important to hold that man.

Mr. BALL. Did you give descriptions to Sims and Boyd?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at Irving. When I got to the city hall, I asked, because, I will tell you why I asked because while we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone came in and told me, I asked when I got to my office who shot the officer, and they told me his name was Oswald, and I said, "His full name?" And they told me and I said, "That is the suspect we are looking for in the President's killing."

So, I then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good witnesses, and I instructed them to get those witnesses over for identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him without bond while we investigated the President's killing where we didn't have so many witnesses.

Mr. BALL. Now, you instructed some other officers to go to Irving, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And you told Sims and Boyd to stay with you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I don't believe I sent them to Irving, I have the names of the officers I sent to Irving.

Mr. BALL. Who did you send to Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. To Irving, Officer Stovall, Rose, and Adamcik.

Mr. BALL. After you had done that what did you do?

Mr. FRITZ. I sent some officers--you mean right at that time? I also sent officers over to the Beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, I don't believe we had the Beckley address at this part of this question.

Mr. BALL. You didn't have it at that time, did you?

Mr. FRITZ. Not right at this time, but as soon as I got to that address.

Mr. BALL. Let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there.

Mr. FRITZ. When I got there?

Mr. BALL. Yes. What did you do after you had sent the officers to Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. When I started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before I started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on Beckley, I don't know who that officer was, I think we can find out, I have--since I have talked to you this morning I have talked to Lieutenant Baker and he says I know maybe who that officer was, but I am not sure yet.

Mr. BALL. Some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on Beckley?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Had he been brought into the station by that time?

Mr. FRITZ. He was at the station when we got there, you know.

Mr. BALL. He was?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; so then I talked to him and I asked him where his room was on Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Then you started to interrogate Oswald, did you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you called him into your room?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like and where it is located?

Mr. FRITZ. It is on the, room 317, on the third floor of the courts building, and it isn't a large office. I believe it is 9-1/2 feet by 14 feet, I have the exact measurements that I think are correct. Glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. My secretaries are seated in the front. There is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. To my right and through the back window out of my office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. And at the end of the hall I have an interrogation room and one interrogation in back of the squadroom.

Mr. BALL. Your room opens onto----

Mr. FRITZ. A little hallway.

Mr. BALL. A little hallway?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, is it?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir? No, no, a little hallway in the office.

Mr. BALL. The main corridor on the third floor--your office does not open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it?

Mr. FRITZ. My own office?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; when I say my office, the homicide and robbery office, my office opens onto the main hallway.

But my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway.

Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald being kept before you got there, what room was Oswald in?

Mr. FRITZ. When I got there he was in the front interrogation room at the end of the little hall.

Mr. BALL. Here is a map or a diagram drawn by Chief Curry. It is Commission Exhibit 701. Take a look at this, is that a diagram of the floor?

Mr. FRITZ. This would be my office right here.

Mr. BALL. That would be the entry to the homicide and robbery?

Mr. FRITZ. Homicide and robbery bureau.

Mr. BALL. This is your office?

Mr. FRITZ. My office opens right here.

Mr. BALL. Off of the hall?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Off the homicide and robbery?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. There is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if I correct it?

Mr. BALL. Go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the hall, isn't it?

Mr. FRITZ. You see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. Now, in coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the elevators, the elevators are right here.

Now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. Now then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right here.

Mr. BALL. You are adding to Chief Curry's map showing a little hallway?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. This is the lieutenant's office right here.

Mr. BALL. You are marking "Lieutenant's office."

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room right in here which comes clear across here.

Here, I have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Here is the door to my office right here.

Mr. BALL. Mark that, please. Show me where Oswald was kept.

Mr. FRITZ. In this little place right here.

Mr. BALL. Put a big X there where Oswald was kept.

Mr. FRITZ. At first?

Mr. BALL. At first.

Mr. FRITZ. He was there when I came in. We didn't keep him there long.

Mr. BALL. That was only a few steps from your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Only a few steps. That is where he was when I came into the office.

Mr. BALL. In the room marked "X" on this Exhibit No. 701 is where he was?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you have that in time when he came into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. The chief's map would have been, I could have made this better if I had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office over here.

Mr. BALL. Don't worry about it. That is close enough. We have him from X which is the conference room into your office.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him sitting in a chair, right here.

Mr. BALL. Right beside you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I have other chairs along here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, Captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Don't you have a time marked in your report there?

Mr. FRITZ. I think so.

Mr. BALL. Of 2:25.

Mr. FRITZ. 2:25?