Chapter XVI: Part 16

Mr. BALL. On page 237 of your report, your report of Sims and Boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and I believe 165.

Mr. FRITZ. My report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. This shows here 2:15 and I don't think that is right.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Baker's report on 165 gives the time also.

Mr. FRITZ. The nearest that I have here then would be shortly after 2:15 p.m.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.

Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.

Mr. BALL. It was soon after you got there?

Mr. FRITZ. Soon after I got there.

Mr. BALL. That you brought him into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present when you talked with him?

Mr. FRITZ. At that time, when I first brought him in there there would be Sims and Boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, I am not sure, just who else might have been there. I know those two, I am sure, I believe those two were there. Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.

Mr. BALL. Was Mr. Bookhout there?

Mr. FRITZ. He had just come into the lieutenant's office and Mr. Shanklin asked that Mr. Hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of Mr. Hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then.

So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.

Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was anyone else present?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.

Mr. BALL. What is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in?

Mr. FRITZ. I first asked him as I do of most people something about where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and I asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in New York for a while, he had gone to school in Fort Worth some, that he didn't finish high school, that he went to the Marines, and the Marines, and finished high school training in the Marines.

And I don't remember just what else. I asked him just the general questions for getting acquainted with him, and so I would see about how to talk to him, and Mr. Hosty spoke up and asked him something about Russia, and asked him if he had been to Russia, and he asked him if he had been to Mexico City, and this irritated Oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum.

Mr. BALL. What did he say when he was asked if he had been to Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not been. He did say he had been to Russia, he was in Russia, I believe he said for some time.

Mr. BALL. He said he had not been in Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. At that time he told me he had not been in Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. Who asked the question whether or not he had been to Mexico City?

Mr. FRITZ. Mr. Hosty. I wouldn't have known anything about Mexico City.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about Oswald's wife?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He said, he told Hosty, he said, "I know you." He said, "You accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting pretty irritable and so I wanted to quiet him down a little bit because I noticed if I talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard to get him to settle down, and I asked him what he meant by accosting, I thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, "Well, he threatened her." And he said, "He practically told her she would have to go back to Russia." And he said, "He accosted her on two different occasions."

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about where he lived?

Mr. FRITZ. Where he lived? Right at that time?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I am sure I had no way of asking him where he lived but I am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, I thought he lived in Irving and he told me he didn't live in Irving. He lived on Beckley as the officer had told me outside.

(At this point Mr. Dulles entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that arrangement and I am again, I can't be too sure when this question was asked. I asked him why his wife was living in Irving and why he was living on Beckley and he said she was living with Mrs. Paine. Mrs. Paine was trying to learn to speak Russian and that his wife, Mrs. Oswald, had a small baby and Mrs. Paine helped with the baby and his wife taught Mrs. Paine Russian and it made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. I thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and I questioned him about the arrangement a little bit and I asked him how often he went out there and he said weekends.

I asked him why he didn't stay out there. He said he didn't want to stay out there all the time, Mrs. Paine and her husband didn't get along too well. They were separated a good part of the time and I asked him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the Paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address?

Mr. FRITZ. He volunteered the address at Beckley?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the Beckley Street address at all. The only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether it was north or south?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, but he didn't know. But from the description of surroundings we could tell it was North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to North Beckley, had you?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I sent them out there real soon and Officer Potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and I am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and I asked Oswald about why he was registered under this other name.

Mr. BALL. What other name?

Mr. FRITZ. Of O. L. Lee.

Mr. BALL. O. H. Lee?

Mr. FRITZ. O. H. Lee. He said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him whether he had signed his name O. H. Lee?

Mr. FRITZ. No, I hadn't asked him.

Mr. BALL. Did you know that he had personally registered?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BALL. He said the lady didn't understand him?

Mr. FRITZ. He said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way.

Mr. BALL. How long did this first questioning take?

Mr. FRITZ. Of course, I talked to him several times during that afternoon. I would have to go out and talk to every officer and give them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and help some in getting the witnesses over there.

I also asked Lieutenant Day to bring the rifle down after I sent after Mrs. Oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. She couldn't identify it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but she couldn't say for sure. She said she thought he brought it from New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. How long a time did you sit with Oswald and question him this first time?

Mr. FRITZ. The first time, not but a few minutes.

Mr. BALL. That was the time Hosty and Bookhout were there?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. But sometimes when I would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy.

I had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning.

I don't know when I would leave, I suppose Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty asked him a few questions, but I don't believe they questioned him a great deal while I was gone.

Mr. BALL. You said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, 15, 20, 25?

Mr. FRITZ. It would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so I don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. For a few minutes, you would think 30 or 40 minutes the first time.

Mr. BALL. Thirty or forty minutes?

Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at that time.

Mr. BALL. He hadn't been searched up to that time, had he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he had been searched.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't he searched later in the jail office?

Mr. FRITZ. He was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, I am sure. He had another search at the building and I believe that one of my officers, Mr. Boyd, found some cartridges in his pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. I can't tell you the exact time when he searched him.

Mr. BAIL. You don't have the record of the time when he was searched?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. You remember they found a transfer of Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; found a transfer.

Mr. BALL. And some bullets?

Mr. FRITZ. Bullets; yes, sir. Cartridges.

Mr. BALL. He had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure about that.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask what kind of bullets these were?

Mr. FRITZ. .38, cartridges for a .38 pistol.

Mr. McCLOY. Pistol?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, pistol cartridges.

Mr. BALL. You had a showup that afternoon?

Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick.

In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember her name?

Mr. FRITZ. I have her name here.

Mr. BALL. Was that Mrs. Markham?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, Helen Markham.

Mr. BALL. That was the first showup, was it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you there?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With her?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell me what happened there?

Mr. FRITZ. She looked at these people very carefully, and she picked him out and made the positive identification.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. FRITZ. She said that is the man that I saw shoot the officer.

Mr. BALL. Who did she point out?

Mr. FRITZ. She pointed out Oswald; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the visitors?

Mr. FRITZ. There is a screen. They are on a stage with numbers over their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup screen.

Mr. BALL. Near the window, you mean about 15, 20 feet.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; about that far.

Mr. BALL. And then, now in this showup there were two officers of the vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the showup with Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. That is true. I borrowed those officers, I was a little bit afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in my office the right size to show with him so I asked two of the special service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the jail office, a civilian employee as a third man.

Mr. BALL. Now, were they dressed a little better than Oswald, do you think, these three people?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I don't think there was a great deal of difference. They had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone else.

Mr. BALL. They were all handcuffed together, were they?

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure, I don't remember for sure if they were all handcuffed together or not. They probably did. I couldn't be positive about that.

Mr. BALL. Now, after you had had the showup with Helen Markham, did you question Oswald again?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. In your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Go directly from the showup room up there?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that.

Mr. BALL. Your records show the showup for Helen Markham was 4:45.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that is about right?

Mr. FRITZ. I think that is about right.

Mr. BALL. All right, now how long after that would you say you went back to your office and talked to him again?

Mr. FRITZ. I would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you know, to get him back from the showup, probably 15 minutes, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. FRITZ. Twenty minutes.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at this questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. This particular questioning?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. I believe--I don't want to be sure about whether Mr. Hosty stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. Mr. Bookhout stayed and my officers were there.

Mr. BALL. Now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and what he did?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And was that the first----

Mr. FRITZ. That was the first time.

Mr. BALL. The first question--what did he tell you about that?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he worked at the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you----

Mr. FRITZ. I asked him how he got his job down there, too.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. I believe the records show something else but that is what he told me.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?

Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.

Mr. FRITZ. I am not sure that is the time I asked him about the rifle. I did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and after the showup; I am not sure which time I asked him about the rifle.

Mr. BALL. Did you bring the rifle down to your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Not to him; not for him to see.

Mr. BALL. You never showed it to him?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir. I asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did not. I asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. He said a good many years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long time. I asked him if he owned a rifle in Russia and he said, "You know you can't own a rifle in Russia." He said, "I had a shotgun over there. You can't own a rifle in Russia." And he denied owning a rifle of any kind.

Mr. BALL. Didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building 2 or 3 days before that Mr. Truly and some men were looking at.

Mr. BALL. You asked him why he left the building, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He told you because he didn't think there would be any work?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he did after he left the building?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he killed Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him if he shot Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he say.

Mr. FRITZ. He denied it--that he did not. The only thing he said he had done wrong, "The only law I violated was in the show; I hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and I guess I deserved it." He said, "That is the only law I violated." He said, "That is the only thing I have done wrong."

Mr. BALL. Now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived at 1026 Beckley, didn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He didn't know whether it was north or south.

Mr. BALL. And you sent a group of officers out there to search that address?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. Before you talked to him the second time you had talked to Potts on the telephone, had you not?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I had.

Mr. BALL. He told you what he had done?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I should have remembered that when I talked to you this morning.

Mr. BALL. Wasn't there some conversation also about what his political beliefs were?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that is later. I asked him about his political beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for Cuba. He said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba organization. They had headquarters in New York, had an office in New Orleans.

At one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. I asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he said he belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union, and I asked him what dues he paid. He said, "$5 per month." I believe he said, or for a year. I am not positive about that. I would have to look at my notes.

Mr. BALL. Was that at the first or second questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. I think it was the second or third; that was later.

Mr. BALL. Later on?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. I don't think I talked to him about his political beliefs until later.

Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time you talked to him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the first time. He asked about an attorney, and I told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it. I told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney he wanted. I told him, I said, we will do it. He said he wanted an attorney in New York. And he gave me his name, Mr. Abt, and he said that is who he wanted, and I told him he could have anyone he liked. He said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the Smith Act, and he said, "I don't know him personally, but that is the attorney I want."

He said, "If I can't get him then I may get the American Civil Liberties Union to get me an attorney."

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about calling him on the telephone?

Mr. FRITZ. A little bit later.

Mr. BALL. Not that time?

Mr. FRITZ. Not that minute. A little bit later, he asked something else about an attorney and I said, "Did you call an attorney?" And he said, "You know I can't use the telephone." And I said, "Yes, you can; anybody can use a telephone." So, I told them to be sure to let him use a telephone and the next time I talked to him he thanked me for that, so I presume he called.

Mr. BALL. You don't know whether he called?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know whether he did or not.

Mr. BALL. When you say a little bit later, you mean another period of questioning?

Mr. FRITZ. Sometime during that talk.

Mr. BALL. You haven't identified these periods of questioning by time.

Mr. FRITZ. I can't identify them positively. I can do the best I can by memory, but I wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions by time because I might get them in the wrong question and in the wrong--time span.

Mr. BALL. At 6:30 you had another showup, at which time McWatters, Guinyard, and Callaway--do you remember those witnesses? Callaway is the car salesman, and Sam Guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at the corner of Patton and Jefferson, and McWatters is a cabdriver--no; is a busdriver.

Mr. FRITZ. We have the names; if those names are right, that is true. At that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup.

Mr. BALL. I point that time out as 6:30 because it appears that you started to question Oswald after you had the Markham showup sometime after 4:35, 4:40, 4:45. Did you question him steadily from then until 6:30, the time of the second showup?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't--I don't believe there was any time when I went through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them additional assignments.

Mr. BALL. Where did you keep him; in what room?

Mr. FRITZ. In my office there.

Mr. BALL. He was in your office all the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; within there.

Mr. BALL. Between the two showups at 4:35 and 6:30, he was in your office all the time?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I believe he was there all that time; let's see, 4:30 to 6:30; I don't remember him being carried out there any time.

Mr. BALL. Was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you or somebody else?

Mr. FRITZ. I doubt it, because I don't think those officers talked to him very much while I was out of the office, I think they might have asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at the showup when Callaway and Guinyard and the busdriver were there?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that in your office at 6:37 there was an arraignment; do you remember that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I remember that arraignment.

Mr. BALL. Will you tell us what happened then? It doesn't show arraignments.

Mr. FRITZ. Do you show arraignment for 7:30?

Mr. BALL. No; 6:30. 7, you discussed, you met with Alexander, the district attorney's office, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. I probably did. I probably talked to him about the evidence.

Mr. BALL. He was arraigned at 7:10.

Mr. FRITZ. He was in our outer office most all the time and I talked to him two, three different times.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever take part in the questioning of Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe so; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. What happened at 7:10?

Mr. FRITZ. 7:10 we had this arraignment with Judge David Johnston, and present. I was present, and Officers Sims, Boyd, Hall, and Mr. Alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my office.

Mr. BALL. How was the arraignment conducted?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a little bit.

Mr. BALL. What warning did he give him?

Mr. FRITZ. He advised him of his rights. I believe he had a form; I couldn't repeat it, of course, but I believe he had some forms that he went over with him.

Mr. BALL. What rights did he advise him of; do you know?

Mr. FRITZ. Of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind.

Mr. BALL. He was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am sure he was; I advised him on that on two or three different occasions.

Mr. BALL. Did--you have a rule in Texas, do you, that whatever a witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he is warned?

Mr. FRITZ. We do have; yes, sir. We have to warn them before we can use the testimony. We have to warn them in the beginning before he is questioned.

Mr. BALL. Before he is questioned you must warn him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before you questioned Oswald the first time, did you warn him?

Mr FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? What were the words you used?

Mr. FRITZ. I told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord.

Mr. BILL. Did he reply to that?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. And once or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want to talk to his attorney, and I told him each time he didn't have to if he didn't want to. So, later he sometimes would start talking to me again.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when you warned him again?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I warned him two or three different times; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when those times were?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; but during the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. They were--you were more or less continuously questioning through the afternoon, were you?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:10, he was arraigned in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. By arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't asked to plea.

Mr. FRITZ. Before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate.

Mr. BALL. It is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is it?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; we don't.

Mr. BALL. All you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against him?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right, I am not a lawyer, you might feel--I don't want to leave a bad impression, I am just telling you what we do.

Mr. BALL. What the practice is in Texas.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any reply to Judge Johnston?

Mr. FRITZ. He said a lot of sarcastic things to him.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Irritable. I can't remember all the things that he said. He was that way at each arraignment. He said little sarcastic things, some of the things were a little impudent things.

Mr. BALL. After the arraignment, your records show that there was--he talked to an agent named Clements, do you remember that?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe that during one of the times when I was out, had to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, Mr. Clements asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal history.

Mr. BALL. Were you present at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. That was in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. In the office.

Mr. BALL. Who was there at the time?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know. He was there, I know some of my officers were there, they had to watch him all the time.

Mr. BALL. Sims and Boyd?

Mr. FRITZ. If they weren't there, some homicide officers were.

Mr. BALL. You had two officers with him all times?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; sometimes three.

Mr. BALL. Always with him in the room?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; all the time. They never questioned him but they stayed in the room.

Mr. BALL. Then your records show another showup at 7:50?

Mr. FRITZ. At what time?

Mr. BALL. 7:50, that is the third showup. Mrs. Davis----

Mr. FRITZ. That would be showup No. 3.

Mr. BALL. That is showup No. 3.

Mr. FRITZ. Showup No. 3 was held for Barbara Jean Davis.

Mr. BALL. And Virginia Davis.

Mr. FRITZ. Virginia Davis.

Mr. BALL. Were you there at the time of the showup?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe I was there, Mr. Hall, Mr. Sims, Mr. Boyd, and Mr. Moore.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who chose the people for the showup there?

Mr. FRITZ. Who showed the people; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who chose the people. There is a Walter, Richard Walter Borchgardt.

Mr. FRITZ. Are those the people you mean for the showup?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't know who chose those people.

Mr. BALL. Don Braswell and John Abel.

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that would be done by my officers.

Mr. BALL. And you don't think you were present at that?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him if he had kept a rifle in the garage at Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did. I asked him and I asked him if he had brought one from New Orleans. He said he didn't.

Mr. BALL. He did not.

Mr. FRITZ. That is right.

I told him the people at the Paine residence said he did have a rifle out there, and he kept it out there and he kept it wrapped in a blanket and he said that wasn't true.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when that was that you asked him?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; during some of those questions.

Mr. BALL. It was after Stovall and Adamcik had come back?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. Now, during the evening, did you question him some more?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I am sure that I did. Let me see.

Mr. BALL. It shows he was fingerprinted at 8:55.

Mr. FRITZ. I probably talked to him a little bit more after that. It shows he was fingerprinted at what time?

Mr. BALL. 8:55. Or 9 o'clock, around 9 o'clock. Fingerprinted, at that time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe he was fingerprinted. I think we made the paraffin test in my office.

Mr. BALL. There was a paraffin test.

Mr. FRITZ. I allowed them to use any office right there to make a paraffin test.

Mr. BALL. And your records show he was fingerprinted there, too.

Mr. FRITZ. It is possible, I didn't stay there with him. He could have. I don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. I wouldn't see any need for it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk--you remember Wesley Frazier who came into the department and made a statement, do you, the boy who----

Mr. FRITZ. I think I remember some man. I believe that is his correct name, some man who came in with some story about seeing Oswald run from the building.

Mr. BALL. No.

Mr. FRITZ. That is not the one?

Mr. BALL. A boy who lived in Irving who drove Oswald weekends back and forth from Irving.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You remember you talked to him that night and he told about a package that Oswald carried into the Texas School Book Depository Building that morning.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what that was?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When?

Mr. FRITZ. I talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer.

Mr. BALL. That was on Sunday morning?

Mr. FRITZ. Sunday morning, that would be the 24th, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. And I asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. It is possible that I could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but I know I asked him that question the last morning.

Mr. BALL. Well, you learned about it on Friday night according to your reports here when Mr. Frazier came in and you gave Frazier a polygraph test.

Mr. FRITZ. I hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and I will tell you why I hesitated, because I wanted to find out more about that package before I got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods I didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--I talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while I was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it.

No; I believe I talked to Mrs. Paine, one of them.

Mr. BALL. Do you think you talked to Oswald before Sunday morning about curtain rods?

Mr. FRITZ. It is possible but I know I talked to him Sunday morning.

Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell him what Frazier had told you?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't know that I told him what Frazier had told me but I told him someone had told me.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?

Mr. FRITZ. I told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. He said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. He said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and Mr. Frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package.

I asked him, I said, "Did you go toward the building carrying a long package?" He said, "No. I didn't carry anything but my lunch."

Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was?

Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long.

Mr. BALL. Approximately how long?

Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what time you--was it the way Frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; it would be just about right.

Mr. BALL. Later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, didn't you, when you had a press interview?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I didn't have a press conference.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. FRITZ. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you give any instructions to the press conference?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a press conference, and I told my officers to take them down and I asked the chief to let me put it on the stage. I was a little bit afraid something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the front, and I told him I would like to put him on the stage so that the officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but he said no, he wanted him in front, so I told the officers to take him down.

I went down later to see how everything was going but I couldn't get in. The crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what time you sent him up to the jail?

Mr. FRITZ. I have it here, I think--12:05; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 12:05?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. May I ask you a question?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Where was the--where did you first see the gun that was presumably used in the murder of Tippit?

Mr. FRITZ. Of Tippit?

Mr. McCLOY. Tippit, yes; .38-caliber pistol.

Mr. FRITZ. The officers brought that in, you know, when they brought him in from the arrest at Oak Cliff.

Mr. McCLOY. And they had that, you had seen it at about the time you first saw Oswald?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, a few minutes later.

Mr. McCLOY. A few minutes later?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. It did show signs from your experience of having been recently fired?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. You know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that.

Mr. McCLOY. And this was new ammunition that he was using?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he was using new ammunition.

Mr. McCLOY. Was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him?

Mr. FRITZ. I didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been unloaded. I understood it was fully loaded, but I didn't see it.

Mr. DULLES. That is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is that it?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; the people told us as he ran across the yard he was reloading the gun as he ran across the yard. Yes; the witnesses told us that.

Mr. McCLOY. If I can take you back a little further also.

Mr. FRITZ. All right, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the gun in the position, the rifle I am talking about now.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the rifle in the position in which it was found?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. McCLOY. Where was it found?

Mr. FRITZ. It was found back near the stairway in a little--some boxes were stacked about this far apart, about that far apart. The rifle was down on the floor and partially under these boxes back near the stairway in the corner of the building.

Mr. McCLOY. This was on the sixth floor?

Mr. FRITZ. Sixth floor; yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Nobody had touched it by the time you saw it?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; nobody touched it. They called me as soon as they saw it and I went back there and I saw it.

Mr. McCLOY. Then you say the rifle was then dusted?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. Does that mean the laboratory people had already come there then?

Mr. FRITZ. He came down from where he had been; he was on the same floor checking the empty cartridges, and he came back.

Mr. McCLOY. Oh, yes.

Mr. FRITZ. To the back, when I called him, and he came back there and checked the rifle; yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. When you went up to the sixth floor from which Oswald apparently had fired these shots, what did it look like there, what was the--how were things arranged there? Was there anything in the nature of a gun rest there or anything that could be used as a gun rest?

Mr. FRITZ. You mean up in the corner where he shot from, from the window?

Mr. McCLOY. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and I believe one box, one small box I believe was in the window, and another box was on the floor. There were some boxes stacked to his right that more or less blinded him from the rest of the floor. If anyone else had been on the floor I doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you see anything other----

Mr. FRITZ. Lieutenant Day, of course, made a detailed description of all of that and he can give it to you much better than I can.

Mr. McCLOY. He is going to be here?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. When was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; that was recovered a little later. I wasn't down there when that was found.

Mr. DULLES. It was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe so. We can check here and see. I believe it was. But I wasn't there when that was recovered.

Mr. BALL. Here is a picture of Commission Exhibit 514.

Mr. FRITZ. That is the--do I have it turned around?

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize it?

Mr. FRITZ. That is it.

Mr. BALL. Is that the scene that was photographed by the crime lab group?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right. But there is one thing that this picture is a little bit deceiving in one way. This picture is taken with a man standing, no doubt, on boxes up high like this, standing down level on the floor. This gun was partially under the end of those boxes right there. You see the camera evidently took a picture under like that, and he got a little more gun than you would see if you were standing on the floor.

Mr. BALL. I want to ask you about a showup.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Callaway and Guinyard and McWatters. You did you say you were present at that showup? That is No. 2.

Mr. FRITZ. No. 2 showup. I show there Leavelle, Brown, and Dougherty. It doesn't show that I was at that showup.

Mr. BALL. You were at that showup?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; it doesn't show.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Callaway before he went to the showup?

Mr. FRITZ. Callaway--I will have to look there to see. Can you tell me something about what he has testified?

Mr. BALL. Callaway is a tall blond man, he was a used car salesman, used carlot on the corner of Patton and Jefferson.

Mr. FRITZ. I believe Officer Leavelle talked to him. Any of these witnesses when I say I didn't talk to them, that doesn't mean I didn't go out and say something to them but I didn't question them.

Mr. BALL. Did you say to anyone of these witnesses, "We think we have got the man that killed Tippit and he is probably the man who killed the President"? Anything like that?

Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember saying anything like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you say, "I want you to look at him good because we want to make the identification."

Mr. FRITZ. Oh, no. We didn't need to. The first witness that went down with me convinced me on the Tippit killing.

Mr. McCLOY. That is Mrs. Markham?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; Helen Markham. And she was a real good witness and she identified him positively and picked him out in a manner that you could tell she was honest in her identification.

Mr. BALL. We came up to the time you got him in jail that is at 12:05.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you through with him at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him again?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe we had another arraignment, did we not?

Mr. BALL. You had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of President Kennedy, murder of President Kennedy.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I went to that arraignment.

Mr. BALL. That was at what time? I believe you showed it at 1:35 a.m. in your records.

Mr. FRITZ. That would be about right.

Mr. BALL. 1:35?

Mr. FRITZ. I will tell you in a minute to be sure. I show 1:35.

Mr. BALL. That was where?

Mr. FRITZ. In the identification bureau.

Mr. BALL. Who was present?

Mr. FRITZ. That is just outside the jail.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that time?

Mr. FRITZ. Well, I show Bill Alexander of the district attorney's office, Henry Wade. That was before Judge Johnston also, and I was there, and I am sure of three or four other people that I can't name.

I think Chief Curry might have gone to this, I can't answer for him, but I believe he might have.

Mr. BALL. That is one, 1:35 a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at 1:10 a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment.

Mr. FRITZ. To the arraignment. It probably wouldn't show that. Sometimes those cards, I don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there.

Mr. BALL. And the jailer was there with him, wasn't he?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. He brought him out.

Mr. BALL. Another thing, that day, at sometime during the 22d when you questioned Oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name Alek Hidell?

Mr. FRITZ. I did; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you ask him about that?

Mr. FRITZ. I believe he had three of those cards if I remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in New Orleans that he had used sometimes. One of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them I believe was the Fair Play for Cuba and one looked like a social security card or something.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRITZ. We have pictures of those cards here. You no doubt have them.

Mr. BALL. Yes. We have them. Did he say that he had used that as a name?

Mr. FRITZ. He told me that is a name he picked up in New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. Did he say----

Mr. FRITZ. I presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in New Orleans.

Mr. BALL. To one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that?

Mr. FRITZ. That is right. Very often he would do that. He would tell him some things and tell me some things.

Mr. BALL. I am talking about this card, A. Hidell. Do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in New Orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? He wouldn't talk about it?

Mr. FRITZ. He didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. He told me he had picked it up down there and when I questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it.

Mr. BALL. Now, the next morning or the next day you questioned him again, didn't you?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, that would be on the 23d.

Mr. BALL. You had another showup on the 23d in the afternoon, but apparently that morning before the showup you talked to him in your office?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What do your records show as to the first time you talked to him on November 23?

Mr. FRITZ. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. I believe if you will look on page 6 of 137B of your formal report that will refresh your memory.

Mr. FRITZ. Which part of this do you want now?

Mr. BALL. I want to know what time you started to question him on November 23.

Mr. FRITZ. I think I can get that time out of the little book.

Mr. BALL. If you look at the top of page 6 there.

Mr. FRITZ. I don't have it.

Mr. BALL. Do you have 137B?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes; I have it. I show 10:25 a.m.

Mr. BALL. 10:35?

Mr. FRITZ. 10:25.

Mr. BALL. 10:25 a.m.?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who was present at this time? Still--look at your notes there.