Chapter XII: Part 12

Mr. CURRY. We removed his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. When he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he allowed to shower and clean up.

Mr. CURRY. I don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. Had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners?

Mr. CURRY. Except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. Ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask a question?

What was Oswald's attitude toward the police? Have you any comment on that?

Mr. CURRY. The only things I heard him say, he was very arrogant. He was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. He denied anything you asked him. I heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. No; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. I remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him.

I remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named Hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and I believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of Hidell and he didn't know anything about that. He just didn't know anything about anything.

Mr. RANKIN. Did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I heard him say something. I asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and Captain Fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with John Abt.

Mr. RANKIN. A-b-t?

Mr. CURRY. A-b-t, I believe an attorney in New York, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could arrange for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone?

Mr. CURRY. We take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that call secret or is there any listening in on it?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. I mean it is supposed to be secret. It is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything.

Mr. DULLES. Did he use this?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether an attorney from Dallas was offered to him and came to the jail?

Mr. CURRY. There were some members of the Civil Liberties Union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel.

Mr. RANKIN. Did they talk to you?

Mr. CURRY. No; they didn't talk to me. They talked to Professor Webster.

Mr. RANKIN. How did this come to your attention?

Mr. CURRY. He told me.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Now, tell us what he said.

Mr. CURRY. He said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and Professor Webster is in the law school out at Southern Methodist University and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. We also got Mr. Nichols.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is he?

Mr. CURRY. He was president of the Dallas Bar Association or criminal bar. I don't know which, Louis Nichols, and----

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do?

Mr. CURRY. He came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so I took him myself up to Lee Harvey Oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CHAIRMAN. Who was Mr. Nichols, did you say?

Mr. CURRY. Louis Nichols. He was president either of the Dallas----

Dean STOREY. Pardon me, it is Dallas Bar Association.

Mr. CURRY. Dallas Bar Association.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CURRY. He went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, I mean he had no complaints. He told him if he didn't get John Abt then he wanted someone from the Civil Liberties Union to come up and talk to him. Then Mr. Nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, I believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel.

The CHAIRMAN. On what day was this?

Mr. CURRY. That was on the same day we arrested him?

The CHAIRMAN. That was Friday?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether Mr. Oswald ever did obtain counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe he did. But I do know he made some telephone contacts.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know when Lee Harvey Oswald was arraigned?

Mr. CURRY. It was about 1:30 in the morning. That would be on the morning of the 23d, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. How long did he--how long had he been in your custody then?

Mr. CURRY. About 11 hours. That was on the Tippit; yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. When you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the Tippit murder or for the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. No; that was for the assassination of the President.

Mr. RANKIN. All right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the Tippit murder?

Mr. CURRY. I was not present but I believe it was about 7:30.

Mr. RANKIN. That same evening?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; that would be about 5 hours afterwards.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the Tippit murder?

Mr. CURRY. For the Tippit murder. There were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for.

The CHAIRMAN. May I interrupt just to ask the chief a question?

Chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; he does.

The CHAIRMAN. Does he ask him if he has counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall him doing that. I am not customarily present when a person is arraigned.

The CHAIRMAN. You were not present at the arraignment?

Mr. CURRY. I was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the President. I was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of Tippit.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure they do.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all I have.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. They don't believe there was any.

Mr. CURRY. I am not sure of that. I know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the President I was present there at the time. It was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. He was there during most of the evening.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you just describe for the Commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw.

Mr. CURRY. As I recall, I know the Justice of the Peace David John Stone was there. It seemed like Sergeant Warren, but I couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. How was he taken out? Were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements?

Mr. CURRY. At that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. He was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. There was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, I don't recall who all was there.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by the criminal identification section. Could you describe what that is?

Mr. CURRY. That is the identification bureau.

Mr. RANKIN. Does that have a room that this meeting occurred in?

Mr. CURRY. It is not a room such as this. It was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby.

Mr. RANKIN. Did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what?

Mr. CURRY. He stood. He stood on one side of the counter and Oswald on the other side of the counter.

Mr. RANKIN. What floor is this on?

Mr. CURRY. The fourth floor.

Mr. RANKIN. That is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; it is.

Mr. RANKIN. And besides the people that you have described, I assume that you yourself were there as you have said?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I was.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there anyone else that you recall?

Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall, other than the justice of the peace.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe what happened?

Mr. CURRY. Lee Harvey Oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "I don't know what you are talking about. That is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall his exact words.

Mr. RANKIN. Just tell us in substance.

Mr. CURRY. He didn't--as I recall, he didn't think much of it. He just said, "I don't know what you are talking about."

Mr. RANKIN. What did the justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the President of the United States, John Kennedy on such and such day at such and such time.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about his right to plead?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about counsel?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall whether he did or not.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened at that time that you recall?

Mr. CURRY. That is about all. After it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go back with him to the cell?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Who took him back to the cell?

Mr. CURRY. The jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard.

Mr. RANKIN. What came to your attention after that about Lee Harvey Oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of?

Mr. CURRY. The next thing that I know of, was the next morning.

Mr. RANKIN. What happened then?

Mr. CURRY. The interrogation of Lee Harvey continued on and off through the day. No; I had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way.

Mr. RANKIN. What captain did you ask that?

Mr. CURRY. Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say?

Mr. CURRY. He said he was. He said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed.

Mr. DULLES. Did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. I don't know what--well, it did continue into that first night, I know. But I don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation.

Mr. RANKIN. They stopped?

Mr. CURRY. I was not in the offices all the time. I was there two or three times.

Mr. RANKIN. Captain Fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said?

Mr. CURRY. He told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "I strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the President."

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what time of day it was?

Mr. CURRY. It seemed to me like it was 6 or 7 o'clock on the day of the 22d.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. Were they continuing to be there?

Mr. CURRY. They remained there. You could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners.

Mr. RANKIN. What office do you mean when you say that?

Mr. CURRY. From the homicide office.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. You took him down what hallway?

Mr. CURRY. The third floor hallway. The offices run like this in the building. The homicide office is right along here, perhaps 25 feet. The elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that homicide office with an "H" on to indicate it?

Mr. CURRY. This extends up here a little more perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark the elevator with "EL."

The CHAIRMAN. There is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and I think the chief had better have a new piece of paper.

Gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, Mr. Rankin, I must leave now for a session of the Court, and Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence?

Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today.

(At this point, the Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have, principally the north end of it.

Mr. RANKIN. We will call that Exhibit 701. Will you describe briefly for the Commission just what you have marked on there now?

Mr. CURRY. I have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in Dallas, Tex.

Now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south.

In the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events.

I have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau.

The northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building.

The entrance to the homicide office is approximately 20 or 25 feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. Each time we--that I observed them move Oswald, they were almost overrun by news media.

Mr. RANKIN. By overrun, what do you mean?

Could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about 4 or 5 or 10?

Mr. CURRY. I will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway.

(At this point, Mr. McCloy entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Were some of them--I will withdraw that question.

Were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, you said that Mr. Nichols came that afternoon. I call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the Saturday afternoon.

Mr. CURRY. Perhaps it was, not the Friday. That perhaps was on Saturday.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. I wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. RANKIN. Back on the record.

In regard to Mr. Nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he did.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mr. CURRY. He said he didn't care to at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Nichols say about providing counsel?

Mr. CURRY. He said the Dallas Bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel.

Mr. RANKIN. That is to Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. Oswald.

Mr. RANKIN. What did Mr. Oswald say?

Mr. CURRY. He said, "I don't at this time," he said, "If I can't get Mr. Abt to represent me or someone from Civil Liberties Union I will call on you later."

Representative FORD. Did Nichols and Oswald talk one to another?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he was taken to see Oswald and he talked to him.

Mr. RANKIN. And this all occurred at the meeting you have already described?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Between Mr. Nichols and Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. When you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall that I specifically discussed this condition.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask for any instructions or advice?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about it that you have not already described?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. DULLES. Did it worry you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it did. I was concerned about it.

Mr. McCLOY. Did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in?

Mr. CURRY. On a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked.

Now, I have heard it said, not to my knowledge can I tell you this, that Jack Ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but I was never able to establish that.

Mr. RANKIN. You have checked into it?

Mr. CURRY. I have inquired into it or had it inquired into.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you find out in that regard?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody.

Representative FORD. Were any press credentials found in his effects?

Mr. CURRY. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security?

Mr. CURRY. No; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there.

As I recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices.

Mr. RANKIN. I offer in evidence Exhibit 701, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. Is that the chart?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted. This is a chart of the third floor.

Mr. CURRY. Of the police and courts building.

Mr. DULLES. What is the other word?

Mr. CURRY. Police and courts building.

Mr. DULLES. It will be accepted.

(The chart referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 701 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. RANKIN. Have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media?

Mr. CURRY. The city manager and I have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is the city manager?

Mr. CURRY. Elgin Crull. He made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. That there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say about that?

Mr. CURRY. I heartily agreed with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you made any other plans for change of security?

Mr. CURRY. I have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. We would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again.

That we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded.

And regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about appearing on television during this time?

Mr. CURRY. They had these cameras set up in the hallway, if I can have the exhibit I will show it to you.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. That is Exhibit 701.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir. They had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras.

Mr. RANKIN. Have you marked that with the word "cameras"?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on an occasion or two as I was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me.

Mr. RANKIN. What would you do?

Mr. CURRY. They would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and I would on occasion or two I told them I thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them what evidence you had?

Mr. CURRY. I told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him.

Mr. RANKIN. When did you do that?

Mr. CURRY. I believe that was on Saturday, I think.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall exactly. I think it was in the afternoon. It might have been Friday night.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you tell them about any other evidence that you had?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall, sir, whether I did or not. There was so much confusion that I can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. I think this is documented, perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Where?

Mr. CURRY. On the TV film.

Mr. RANKIN. I see. Did you give out any interviews to the newspapers?

Mr. CURRY. I don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers.

Mr. RANKIN. Any news releases?

Mr. CURRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. DULLES. Do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do that, sir. That was one of my inspectors, I believe that gave that order. I was riding in the Presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, I guess, ahead of the President's car, and when we heard this first report, I couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from.

Representative FORD. What report are you talking about now?

Mr. CURRY. A sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle.

We were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and I thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack.

Inspector--no, it wasn't Inspector, it was Lawson of the Secret Service and Mr. Sorrels of the Dallas office of the Secret Service, and Sheriff Bill Decker and myself were in this car.

Mr. DULLES. I may be anticipating.

Mr. RANKIN. That is all right, go right ahead.

Mr. CURRY. I said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. I don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report I couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but I said over the radio, I said, "Get someone up in the railroad yard and check."

And then about this time. I believe it was motorcycle Officer Chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror I could see some commotion in the President's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports I could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by reports?

Mr. CURRY. Sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then I could see some commotion in President Kennedy's car.

Mr. RANKIN. You could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind?

Mr. CURRY. Behind.

Mr. RANKIN. Rather than front?

Mr. CURRY. That is right.

Mr. RANKIN. You weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the----

Representative FORD. Where were you sitting in the car, sir?

Mr. CURRY. I was driving.

Representative FORD. You were driving?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. When you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order?

Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately.

Representative FORD. What was the order that you gave?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it, "Get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." There was already an officer up there.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mr. CURRY. They assigned officers to every overpass.

We went with the Secret Service, Batchelor and Chief Lunday had went over this route with Secret Service agents Lawson and Sorrels and they had run the route 2 or 3 days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you see an officer there when you looked up?

Mr. CURRY. I couldn't recognize him, but I could see an officer whoever it was.

Representative FORD. Did you get this order over the PA system before the second and third shots?

Mr. CURRY. I don't believe so, I am not sure. I am not positive. Because they were in pretty rapid succession. But after I noticed some commotion in the President's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and I asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and I said, "Has the President been hit or has the President's party been hit?

And he said, "I am sure they have."

I said, "Take us to the hospital immediately," and I got on the radio and I told them to notify Parkland Hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, I would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to Parkland Hospital from this, and we went to Parkland and I notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance.

As I recall, I got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the President, President Kennedy and Governor Connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital.

Mrs. Kennedy, I went into the hospital, and I know she was outside the door of where they were working with the President, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "I am all right. Some of your people need to sit down more than I do."

But everyone was very concerned. I remained around the hospital. I was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the President, then Vice President Johnson to Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. You have told us about that, haven't you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I have told you about that.

Mr. RANKIN. And you told us you attended the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. And that you waited until the plane left and then you came back?

Mr. CURRY. To my offices.

Mr. RANKIN. And Judge Hughes left at the same time?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time?

Mr. CURRY. No. I left this to be handled by Captain Fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; he told me they were interrogating him, Oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of Oswald, and they obtained, I understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying.

Mr. RANKIN. What about the building immediately after the occasion?

Mr. CURRY. It was sealed off, Inspector Sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, I think was the first ranking officer to the School Depository Building. He would have had to come perhaps 10 blocks. I believe he told me that he was about at Akard and Maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there.

Mr. RANKIN. You say you imagine. Is this something that they reported to you?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. He told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the Texas--of where the shots were fired from.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he tell you he did then?

Mr. CURRY. He took charge of the investigation.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he do about the building?

Mr. CURRY. He had it sealed off. This perhaps would have been perhaps, 5, 8, 10 minutes after the original----

Mr. RANKIN. About what time?

Mr. CURRY. I would say perhaps 12:40.

Mr. RANKIN. And was that before or after a description of Lee Oswald was put on the radio?

Mr. CURRY.I couldn't say whether it was before or after.

Mr. RANKIN. What else happened?

Mr. CURRY. I think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, I am not sure.

A deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at Love Field, and he had some more Secret Service men with him, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Who is that?

Mr. CURRY. George Lumpkin. George L. Lumpkin. He asked me at the hospital if I didn't want him to go back to the Texas School Book Depository and assist in the search of the building and I told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he report to you later what he did about that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, he did. He told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom.

Mr. McCLOY. Who was this man?

Mr. CURRY. George L. Lumpkin.

Mr. McCLOY. Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY. No.

Mr. McCLOY. On your staff?

Mr. CURRY. No; he is a police officer.

Mr. RANKIN. Was he an assistant chief?

Mr. CURRY. He is not an assistant chief. Each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. I have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs.

Mr. RANKIN. And this was a deputy chief?

Mr. CURRY. A deputy chief; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it?

Mr. CURRY. That is correct.

Mr. RANKIN. And the other officers are appointed?

Mr. CURRY. Appointed, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. By you?

Mr. CURRY. By me, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether the search was made?

Mr. CURRY. They reported to me that it was made, yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin?

Mr. CURRY. After it was searched I understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?

Mr. DULLES. Could I inquire there. I thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony.

Mr. CURRY. It was. But after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked Mr. Truly, I believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go.

Mr. DULLES. Was that supplemented, though, by the police?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I believe we had officers there.

Mr. DULLES. Then there were in a way two sealings off. One that you gave the order was given 8 or 10 minutes----

Mr. CURRY. Almost immediately, yes.

Mr. DULLES. After the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. There is one element I am not clear on, I may be anticipating, Mr. Rankin. But I believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that Mr.--an officer went in with Mr. Truly into the building.

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. And started to go upstairs, and they ran into Oswald on the second floor. Was that before the inspector got there?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene.

Mr. McCLOY. Do you remember that officer's name?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. It is in the record.

Mr. BELIN. It is officer M. L. Baker. He was in the motorcade.

Mr. McCLOY. Did M. L. Baker purport to seal off the building?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he didn't. The first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors.

Mr. McCLOY. The first man who sealed the building was----

Mr. CURRY. I believe will be Inspector Sawyer.

Mr. McCLOY. Inspector Sawyer?

Mr. CURRY. I believe he would be the first to issue orders. I could be mistaken on that but as I recall he was the first officer.

Mr. DULLES. You did not give those orders yourself?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; not myself.

Representative FORD. How many men participated in the search of the building?

Mr. CURRY. I would just have to guess but I would suggest probably 20 people.

Representative FORD. Did you check with those who went through this process?

Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't check with each individual officer.

Representative FORD. Did you get a report?

Mr. CURRY. I got a report from Inspector Sawyer, and also from Chief Lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched.

Representative FORD. How long did it take them, do you have any idea?

Mr. CURRY. I believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building.

Representative FORD. Did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find?

Mr. CURRY. I believe there were some written reports made. I don't recall now.

Representative FORD. If there are written reports could we have them?

Mr. CURRY. I think----

Mr. RANKIN. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. Back on the record.

Are you familiar with any written report, Chief, on what transpired during the search of the building?

Mr. CURRY. Only what Deputy Chief Lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the President would visit Dallas until the shooting of Oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report.

Representative FORD. If there is a report in anybody's files in the Dallas Police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available.

Representative FORD. Will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the Commission, please?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; I was trying to.

Mr. RANKIN. Chief Curry, I think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth.

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; it just states in here how Chief Lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there.

Mr. McCLOY. The chronological report part of our record yet?

Mr. BELIN. We have a chronological report, yes.

Mr. McCLOY. Is this the same one as the Chief is looking at?

Mr. RANKIN. We will check that.

Mr. DULLES. It is not yet an exhibit, is it?

Mr. RANKIN. No; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the Commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the Commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report.

Mr. McCLOY. Is that the same chronological report that the Chief has?

Mr. CURRY. If it isn't I can leave you these copies but they were submitted to Attorney General Carr, two copies. This is what is in this report. "Upon arrival,"--this is Chief Lumpkin--"Upon arrival at the Texas School Book Depository we found Inspector Sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. This was discussed with Sawyer. We decided that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by sending them to Sheriff Decker's office"--which is about a half block from here--"at Main and Houston to be held for further interrogation. Homicide Detective Turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses."

Mr. DULLES. That is where the sheriff's office was?

Mr. CURRY. Main and Houston, it runs.

"Detective Senkel was released back to Captain Fritz to assist in the investigation. He had come down. Sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. Sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. Several of the U.S. Alcohol Tax units assisted in the search.

"At that time Lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter."

This probably was some, I would say, some 30 or 40 minutes after the original shots were fired. He had gone on to Parkland Hospital to me and I told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter.

Mr. McCLOY. In your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place?

Mr. CURRY. No; I think Inspector Sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building.

Mr. RANKIN. You have already testified about Inspector Sawyer and you said you thought he was about 10 or 12 blocks away.

Mr. CURRY. I believe so. I believe he was about at Main and Akard Streets which would be about 10 blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there.

Mr. DULLES. And the first order to seal off was given some 10 minutes, I think you testified, in that neighborhood?

Mr. CURRY. To the best of my knowledge.

Mr. DULLES. After the assassination?

Mr. CURRY. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. You don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I don't. I imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were.

Mr. DULLES. Who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be Sawyer?

Mr. RANKIN. Officer Sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so.

Mr. RANKIN. And whatever he would say about it you think would be correct?

Mr. CURRY. I do. Because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came.

Representative FORD. Would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point?

Mr. RANKIN. I wonder if it would be satisfactory to the Commission, in view of the inquiry by Commissioner Ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course.

Representative FORD. That would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment.

Mr. RANKIN. We will do that then.

Now, Chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described?

Mr. CURRY. The next thing I can tell you about, I remained out, as I say, at Love Field until the planes departed. I went back to the office.

Mr. DULLES. At about what time would you place that?

Mr. CURRY. I believe it was about 4 o'clock I believe when I returned to the office.

Mr. DULLES. It was 4 o'clock when you returned to the office from Love Field?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so, I am not positive.

When I arrived they were in the process of, Captain Fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of Tippit and also the assassination of the President.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress?

Mr. CURRY. I think I did. I asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what happened after that?

Mr. CURRY. They had had a couple of showups with Oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know whether they had gone out to Beckley Street to the place where he had stayed?

Mr. CURRY. I understood they had and I understood they went back the next day.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by a showup?

Mr. CURRY. Well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people.

Mr. RANKIN. You have a room for this purpose?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; we do.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe briefly what that room is like?

Mr. CURRY. It is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. They have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage.

Mr. RANKIN. How large is the room?

Mr. CURRY. The room, I would say, is perhaps 50 feet long and 20 feet wide.

Mr. RANKIN. Who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup?

Mr. CURRY. Presumably only the news media and police officers. I have been told that Jack Ruby was seen in this showuproom also.

Mr. RANKIN. About what time of the day was that?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall, this was fairly late Friday night, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who was there to try to identify Lee Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. No, I don't. The news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "Let us see him. What are you doing to him? How does he look?"

I think one broadcaster that I had heard or someone had told me about, said that Lee Harvey Oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the Dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when I heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about that?

Mr. CURRY. I offered then at that time--they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and I said we had no objection to anybody seeing him.

And when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation.

Mr. RANKIN. And this showup, how many people attended?

Mr. CURRY. I would think perhaps 75 people. I am just making an estimate. I told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. There was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over Love Field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places.

Now, Mr. Wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as I recall, I asked Mr. Wade, I said, "Do you think this will be all right?" And he said, "I don't see anything wrong with it."

Mr. RANKIN. Did you find out where Jack Ruby was during this showup?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't know Jack Ruby. Actually the first time I saw Jack Ruby to know Jack Ruby was in a bond hearing or I believe it was a bond hearing, and I recognized him sitting at counsel's table.

The impression has been given that a great many of the Dallas Police Department knew Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. What is the fact in that regard?

Mr. CURRY. The fact of that as far as I know there are a very small percentage of the Dallas Police Department that knows Jack Ruby.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you make an inquiry to find out?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, yes, sir. And so far as I know most of the men who knew Jack Ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course----

Mr. RANKIN. How many men would that be?

Mr. CURRY. I am guessing, perhaps 25 men. This is merely a guess on my part.

Mr. RANKIN. How large is your police force?

Mr. CURRY. Approximately 1,200. I would say 1,175 people. I would say less, I believe less than 50 people knew him. From what I have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him.

I also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody?

Mr. CURRY. There is a time--there wasn't at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Why not?

Mr. CURRY. No particular reason. They just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as I recall only about 4 or 5 minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and I believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes.

But we took Harvey Oswald back upstairs and I think I went back to my office.

Mr. DULLES. This was the evening of Friday, was it not?

Mr. CURRY. I believe so, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Did you say Ruby was present that evening?

Mr. CURRY. I have understood he was. But to my own knowledge, I wouldn't have known him because I didn't know him.

Mr. McCLOY. You said you first saw Ruby when?

Mr. CURRY. In a trial. I believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. And I saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures I had seen of him in the paper.

Mr. DULLES. This is some time before the assassination?

Mr. McCLOY. This is the trial incident to the trial of Ruby, as I understand it?

Mr. DULLES. You had not seen him before?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY. It was a bond hearing incident to the trial?

Mr. CURRY. If I had seen him I wouldn't have known him.

Mr. McCLOY. I don't want to again interrupt but I don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination.

I thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example.

Mr. RANKIN. We haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and I think we could go back, Chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left Main Street and started down Houston, and then down Elm up to the time of the shots.

Will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of?