Chapter XI: Part 11

Governor CONNALLY. After this was all over, I do, Mr. Dulles. As I recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be corrected. But at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that I had resigned as Secretary of the Navy a month before I got the letter, so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any grudge as a result of that when I had resigned as Secretary prior to the receipt of the letter.

Mr. DULLES. I think I can say without violating any confidence, that there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was--in fact, Marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. There was no animus against you on the part of Oswald, as you----

Governor CONNALLY. I have wondered, of course, in my own mind as to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and the only--I suppose like any person at that particular moment, I represented authority to him. Perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit enough to where I was as much a target as anyone else. But that is the only conceivable basis on which I can assume that he was deliberately trying to hit me.

Representative BOGGS. You have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, I do; I do have doubt, Congressman. I am not at all sure he was shooting at me. I think I could with some logic argue either way. The logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. He obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at.

On the other hand, I think I could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and I think really his sole target, was President Kennedy. His first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the President. His second shot showed that he had clearly missed the President, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the President slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. I haven't seen all of the various positions, but again I think from where he was shooting I was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the President, so any movement on the part of the President would expose me.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the moving pictures, Governor?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any point of exit on your thigh wound?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. (to Dr. Gregory.) Would you give the precise condition of the right wrist, and cover the thigh, too?

Dr. GREGORY. The present state of the wound on his wrist indicates that the linear scar made in the course of the excision is well healed; that its upper limb is about----

Governor CONNALLY. I thinks he wants you to describe the position of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; the position.

Dr. GREGORY. I was about to do that. The upper limb of it is about 5 centimeters above the wrist joint, and curves around toward the thumb distally to about a centimeter above the wrist joint.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the total length of that?

Dr. GREGORY. The length of that excisional scar is about 4 centimeters, an inch and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the wound appearing to be on the palmer side?

Dr. GREGORY. The wound on the palmer side of the wrist is now converted to a well-healed linear scar approximately one-half inch in length, and located about three-quarters of an inch above the distal flexion crease.

Representative BOGGS. What is the prognosis for complete return of function there?

Dr. GREGORY. Very good, Congressman; very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, I now show you the black jacket and ask you if you can identify what that jacket is, whose it is?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is mine.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you last wear that jacket?

Governor CONNALLY. On November 22 I was wearing this, the day of the shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you Commission Exhibit 683 and ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the jacket, as it appears at the moment?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 684, and ask if that is a photograph of the rear side of the jacket?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a shirt and ask you if you can identify this as having been the shirt you wore on the day of the assassination?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the shirt I had on.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 685 and ask if that is a picture of the rear side of the shirt?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibit 686 is shown to you, and I ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the shirt?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a pair of black trousers and ask you if you can identify them?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; these are the trousers to the coat we looked at a moment ago. They were the trousers I was wearing on the day of the shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph and ask you, which is Exhibit 687, if that is a photograph of the front of the trousers?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you Exhibit 688 and ask you if that depicts the rear of the trousers?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a tie, and ask you if you can identify that?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; that is the tie I was wearing on the day of the shooting.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 700 and ask if that is a picture of the tie?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the permanent home of these clothes at the present time when they are not on Commission business?

Governor CONNALLY. They, the Archives of the State of Texas, asked for the clothing, and I have given the clothing to them. That is where they were sent from, I believe, here, to this Commission.

Mr. SPECTER. At this juncture, Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission in evidence of Commission Exhibits 699 and 700.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The items marked Commission Exhibits 699 and 700 for identification were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, in 1963 we were informed that Lee Harvey Oswald paid a visit to Austin. Tex., and is supposed to also have visited your office. Do you have any knowledge of such a visit?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. What date did you give?

Mr. SPECTER. 1963.

Representative BOGGS. What date in 1963?

Mr. SPECTER. We do not have the exact date on that.

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me just a minute. Would your office records indicate such a visit?

Governor CONNALLY. It might or might not, Congressman. We have----

Representative BOGGS. That is what I would think.

Governor CONNALLY. We have there a reception room that is open from about 9:30 to 12 and from 2 to 4 every day, and depending on the time of the year there are literally hundreds of people who come in there. There would be as high as 80 at a time that come in groups, and a tour--this is a very large reception room which, frankly, we can't use for any other purpose because it is so useful for tourists, and they literally come in by the hundreds, and some days we will have a thousand people in that room on any given day. So for me to say he never was in there, I couldn't do that; and he might well have been there, and no record of it in the office.

We make no attempt to keep a record of all the people who come in. If they come in small groups or if they have appointments with me, or one of my assistants, yes, we do. We keep records of people who come in and want to leave a card or leave word that they dropped by. But I have no knowledge that he ever came by.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, on your recitation of the events on the day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the hospital. What recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the way to the hospital from the assassination scene?

Governor CONNALLY. None really. I think at that point I had lost consciousness because I don't have any recollection, Mr. Specter, of anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. It was a very short period of time, but I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection of your arrival at the hospital itself, at the Parkland Hospital?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes. I think when the car stopped the driver was obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness.

Again, a strange thing--strange things run through your mind and, perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but I immediately--the only thought that occurred to me was that I was in the jump seat next to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with the President; that I had to get out of the way so they could get to the President. So although I was reclining, and again Mrs. Connally holding me, I suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand upright to get myself out of the car.

I got--I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point.

I was conscious then off and on during the time I was in the emergency room. I don't recall that I remember everything, but I remember quite a bit. I remember being wheeled down the passageway, I remember doctors and various people talking in the emergency room. I remember them asking me a number of questions, too, which I answered, but that was about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at Parkland Hospital?

Governor CONNALLY. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, other than that which you have already testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before the trip or with the President in Texas during his trip, or after his trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all, either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip, other than those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the facts surrounding the assassination?

Governor CONNALLY. None whatever.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; Mr. Specter, I don't.

I want to express my gratitude to the Commission for hearing me so patiently, but I only wish I could have added something more that would be helpful to the Commission on arriving at the many answers to so many of these difficult problems, but I don't.

I can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the events and what happened. It is rather amazing in retrospect when you think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely which way I was looking or where my hand or arm was, I can only say I hope it is understandable in the light of the fact that this was a very sudden thing. It was a very shocking thing.

I have often wondered myself why I never had the presence of mind enough--I obviously did say something; I said, "Oh, no, no, no," and then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

I don't know why I didn't say. "Get down in the car," but I didn't. You just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some things you ought to do.

But I am again grateful to this Commission as a participant in this tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and I want to express, I think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and energy and the dedication that this Commission has devoted to trying to supply the answers that people, I am sure, will be discussing for generations to come. I know it has been a difficult, long, laborious task for you, but I know that generations of the future Americans will be grateful for your efforts.

Representative BOGGS. Governor, I would like to say that we have had fine cooperation from all of your Texas officials, from the attorney general of the State, and from his people and others who have worked with the Commission.

Governor CONNALLY. Well, we are delighted, and I am very happy that the attorney general is here with us today.

Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Cooper.

Senator COOPER. Governor, at the time you all passed the Texas School Book Depository, did you know that such a building was located there? Were you familiar with the building at all?

Governor CONNALLY. Just vaguely, Senator.

Senator COOPER. But now when you heard the shot, you turned to your right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that direction. As you turned, was that in the direction of the Texas School Book Depository?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; it was.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember an overpass in front of you----

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. As you moved down?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you aware at all of any sounds of rifleshots from the direction of the overpass, from the embankment?

Governor CONNOLLY. No, sir; I don't believe there were such.

Senator COOPER. Well, you know, there have been stories.

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; but I don't believe that.

Senator COOPER. I wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the fact--you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of any shot from the embankment or overpass. The answer is what?

Governor CONNALLY. I am not aware of any shots from the overpass, Senator. Senator, I might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that I have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifleshot, and the sound I heard I thought was a rifleshot, at the time I heard it I didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. I thought it was a rifleshot. I have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this shot I heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the School Book Depository, no question about it. I heard no other. The first and third shots came from there. I heard no other sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance of shots or anything else on the overpass.

Senator COOPER. Would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet?

Governor CONNALLY. Senator, the best way I can describe it is to say that I would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a 12-inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade.

Senator COOPER. That is when you heard the first rifleshot?

Governor CONNALLY. This was after I heard the first rifleshot. There was no pain connected with it. There was no particular burning sensation. There was nothing more than that. I think you would feel almost the identical sensation I felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?

Governor CONNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.

Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor, or in what range of slides?

Governor CONNALLY. We took--you are talking about the number of the slides?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don't remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.

Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?

Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.

Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was----

Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?

Mr. DULLES. I have one or two. Governor, were you consulted at all about the security arrangements in connection with the Dallas visit?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we normally are not.

Mr. DULLES. I realize that.

Governor CONNALLY. Mr. Dulles, the Secret Service, as you know, comes in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various city police, and the various localities in which we are going. So far as I know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone concerned, but I was not consulted.

Mr. DULLES. I think you mentioned that there was a slight change in plans before the arrival in San Antonio. I don't know whether it affects our investigation at all. Do you recall that?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes, sir; I don't know whether it--I don't think it affects the testimony at all. I was merely trying to relate some of the problems that had gone into planning a Presidential trip into four cities.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Governor CONNALLY. And trying to arrange this all initially within about a 12-hour period which had been expanded into a little more than that because the President finally agreed to come the day before, and come into San Antonio on the afternoon before the Thomas dinner on Thursday night.

Mr. DULLES. That was the change you had in mind?

Governor CONNALLY. This was the change. This gave us much more latitude because it permitted us to go into San Antonio, which is one of the major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated the Aerospace Medical Center on Thursday, which meant we did not have to crowd Thursday. But there was a change, but not significant to this investigation.

Mr. DULLES. Do you happen to recall in general when the decision was reached that the visit would include a trip to Dallas, or was that always a part?

Governor CONNALLY. I think it was always a part.

Mr. DULLES. Of the planning?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I think it was always a part. There was consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave out Dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was no question, I don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, and Fort Worth.

Mr. DULLES. You do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on one side?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir; I sure don't.

Mr. DULLES. You and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have indicated that they recognized it as being a rifleshot. The other witness, like you, was a huntsman. Most of the witnesses have indicated they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a firecracker.

Can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifleshot from a backfire or a firecracker? Can you tell or is it just instinct?

Governor CONNALLY. I am not sure I could accurately describe it. I don't know that I have ever attempted to. I would say a firecracker or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you popped a balloon, or something of this sort. A rifleshot, on the other hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a metallic sound to it. It is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker or a blowout. It carries----

Mr. DULLES. That gives me what I had in mind. I realize that. That is all I have, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We are very appreciative of the help you have given us.

Senator COOPER. May I ask just one question?

The CHAIRMAN. We hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a rather general question? I would like to ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were aware that there might be some act of violence against the President?

Governor CONNALLY. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Thank you.

Governor CONNALLY. No; let me say that there have been several news stories----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I know.

Governor CONNALLY. That purportedly quoted me about not wanting the President to ride in a motorcade or caravan in Dallas. That is very true. But the implication was that I had some fear of his life, which is not true.

The reason I didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply we were running out of time, and that, I thought, we were working him much too hard. This again was before the change, moving San Antonio to Thursday instead of having it all on one day, and I was opposed to a motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and I didn't think we had the time.

But once we got San Antonio moved from Friday to Thursday afternoon, where that was his initial stop in Texas, then we had the time, and I withdrew my objections to a motorcade.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Governor.

Governor CONNALLY. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. JOHN BOWDEN CONNALLY, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, would you mind telling us the story of this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start right with the shooting itself, and Mr. Specter will also examine you.

Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you sit, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you the wife of Governor John C. Connally?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I am the wife of Governor John B. Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, tell us what happened at the time of the assassination.

Mrs. CONNALLY. We had just finished the motorcade through the downtown Dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. The people had been very responsive to the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and we were very pleased, I was very pleased.

As we got off Main Street--is that the main thoroughfare?

Mr. SPECTER. That is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes.

Mrs. CONNALLY. In fact the receptions had been so good every place that I had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before.

I could resist no longer. When we got past this area I did turn to the President and said, "Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't love you."

Then I don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that I heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, I was not aware that it was a rifle. It was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right.

I turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the President as he had both hands at his neck.

Mr. SPECTER. And you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.

Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

I never again----

Mr. DULLES. To the right was into your arms more or less?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. I was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. So that I looked out, I mean as he was in my arms, I put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all I could see, too, were the people flashing by. I didn't look back any more.

The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.

Just before we got to Parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast do you think he was going?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't know; very rapidly. The people I could see going by were just rushing. We were just rushing by very fast.

We arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what I know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must I sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the President whom I felt very sure was dead, and just when I thought I could sit and wait no longer, John just sort of heaved himself up. He did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you and Governor Connally were still on the jump seats of the car?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, and they had not--the President was still--and Mrs. Kennedy were still in the back. I still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot. I could hear, you know, hear them talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the President was in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was--I guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything at all after the shooting?

Mrs. CONNALLY. He did not say anything. Mrs. Kennedy said, the first thing I recall her saying was, after the first shot, and I heard her say, "Jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second shot, and then after the third shot she said, "They have killed my husband. I have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several times, and that was all the conversation.

Mr. SPECTER. From that point forward you say you had your eyes to the front so you did not have a chance----

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, because I had him, and I really didn't think about looking back anyway, but I could just see the car rushing along, and people and things rushing past us. I remember thinking what a terrible sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and it was a terribly horrifying thing, and I think that is about as I remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. What happened then after you got to the hospital?

Mrs. CONNALLY. We got to the hospital and, like I said, John heaved himself over. They still could not seem to get Mrs. Kennedy or the President out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in their arms and put him on a stretcher. There were two stretchers there, and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they ran down the hall with the stretcher, and I just ran along with them.

They took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the President on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to the right. There was much commotion and confusion. There were lots of what I assumed were Secret Service men rushing in with machine guns, I guess, or tommyguns. I am not real sure, they were big arms of some sort. There was no one--there were lots of people across the hall. There was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, I guess like any other woman, I wondered if all the doctors were in the room on the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the right. I shouldn't have worried about that, should I?

I knew no one in the hospital and I was alone. Twice I got up and opened the door into the emergency room, and I could hear John and I could see him moving, and I knew then that he was still alive.

I guess that time was short, too. It seemed endless. Somebody rushed out, I thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. I later read that it was a lady doctor.

They took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and I just left with him and waited in an office. Do you know whose office I was in? It was where you came to me.

Dr. GREGORY. Dr. Jenkins' office.

Dr. SHAW. Yes. You were either in the anesthesia office or in the room that is part of the recovery room. Was it the same place where you later stayed, Mrs. Connally?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No.

Dr. GREGORY. I think it was back in Dr. Jenkins' office. That is where I believe I first saw you.

Mrs. CONNALLY. I believe that is right.

As soon as Dr. Shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good news.

I then asked if I couldn't go see Mrs. Kennedy, and they told me that she had left the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you visited at the hospital by Mrs. Johnson?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I was. But I assume that was before, since they left together, not much of a visit. She came by and we didn't have to say much, and then they left.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the source of the shots?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Well, I had no thought of whether they were high or low or where. They just came from the right; sounded like they were to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. How many did you hear in all?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I heard three.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first to the last shot?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Very short. It seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third.

Mr. SPECTER. About how fast do you think the car was going then?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't really know. Not too fast. It was sort of a letdown time for us. We could relax for, we thought we could, for just a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. And you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had been passed?

Mrs. CONNALLY. We had gone by them. The underpass was in sight, and I knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would be going straight to the Trade Mart for the luncheon, and I felt like we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the films this morning here in the Commission office?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes, I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that Governor Connally was shot?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure I remember the numbers so correct me, but I thought at the time that it was that 229--it could have been then through the next three or four frames.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything----

Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the source, you say you thought it was to the right--did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear or side?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I thought it was from back of us.

Mr. SPECTER. To the rear?

Mrs. CONNALLY. To the right; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation or level?

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the Commission in any way?

Mrs. CONNALLY. I don't think so.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions? Senator, do you have any? Do you have any, Mr. Dulles?

Mr. DULLES. I just have one question. Mrs. Connally, on one point your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. I think you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third than between the first and the second; is that your recollection?

Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. That is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? You realize I just wanted to get whether I had heard you correctly on that.

Mrs. CONNALLY. You did.

Mr. DULLES. Thank you very much.

Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Connally, thank you very much. We hate to have you review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have your testimony, and you were very kind to come.

Mrs. CONNALLY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it very much, indeed.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned.)

_Wednesday, April 22, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY, J. W. FRITZ, T. L. BAKER, AND J. C. DAY

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on April 22, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, John J. McCloy, and Allen W. Dulles, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray, observer; Waggoner Carr, attorney general of Texas; and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas.

TESTIMONY OF JESSE EDWARD CURRY

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of Lee Oswald at the time of the assassination of the President.

I think we will take the testimony of you, Captain Fritz, Lieutenant Day, and Lieutenant Baker. I want to say to you, Chief, before I leave, I will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the Supreme Court but I want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in Dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the Ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all.

So, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding.

Now, would you please rise, Chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CURRY. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rankin, our Chief Counsel, will interrogate you, Chief. Mr. Rankin, will you proceed?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes; Mr. Chief Justice. Chief Curry, you gave a deposition for the Commission recently, did you not?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. That was about April 15, 1964?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. And that was down in Dallas that you gave it?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. RANKIN. And Mr. Hubert examined you?

Mr. CURRY. That is true.

Mr. RANKIN. That was taken down by a court reporter?

Mr. CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way?

Mr. CURRY. I can't recall of anything that I should correct or add to.

Mr. RANKIN. I ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but I would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the Chief Justice and possibly other members of the Commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and I would like to get to certain crucial matters if I may.

When did you learn of the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. While I was out at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know about what time that was, the day?

Mr. CURRY. It was on the 22d and the best I recall it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little after 1 o'clock.

Mr. RANKIN. How did that come to your attention?

Mr. CURRY. Some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect in the shooting of our Officer Tippit.

Mr. RANKIN. What else did they say?

Mr. CURRY. They also told me a little later, I believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the President.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do then?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything at the time. I was at the hospital, and I remained at the hospital until some of the Secret Service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that President Kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for President Johnson and some of his staff to return to Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do that?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; I did.

Mr. RANKIN. What else--what did you do after that?

Mr. CURRY. After the planes departed from Love Field, I was there for the inauguration of the President, and then we left the plane, and Judge Sarah Hughes and myself, and I remained at Love for some, I guess perhaps an hour.

Mr. RANKIN. By inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the President?

Mr. CURRY. That is right, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. On the plane?

Mr. CURRY. On the plane; yes.

Mr. RANKIN. And then you left Love Field?

Mr. CURRY. I talked to Mayor Cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left Love Field then I left Love Field.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you go with Judge Hughes or she go with you?

Mr. CURRY. No; she was in her own car.

Mr. RANKIN. I see.

Mr. CURRY. And I returned to the city hall.

Mr. DULLES. Did I understand correctly, how long were you at Love Field after the plane of the President left?

Mr. CURRY. As I recall it was approximately an hour.

Mr. DULLES. That is what I thought.

Mr. CURRY. We waited there until the casket bearing the President, and then the cars bearing Mrs. Kennedy arrived, and it was, I would judge an hour perhaps.

Mr. RANKIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. CURRY. I returned to my office at city hall.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about Lee Harvey Oswald at that time?

Mr. CURRY. No. As I went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I didn't do anything. They were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. The television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. I went into my administrative offices, I saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live TV set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this?

Mr. CURRY. I noticed--well, I don't know who gave them permission because I wasn't there. When I returned they were up there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you inquire about whether permission had been given?

Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. We had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you describe to the Commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled?

Mr. CURRY. Well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room.

As prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, how was this different?

Mr. CURRY. That there was such total confusion here. We had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. We had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, I noticed on the third floor when I come off the elevator.

They were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing.

The CHAIRMAN. Chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes?

Mr. CURRY. It is a section of the municipal building.

The CHAIRMAN. A section of it. Is it isolated from the rest of it?

Mr. CURRY. No; it is connected.

The CHAIRMAN. Connected?

Mr. CURRY. Yes. And on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau.

In the basement it is principally police offices. On the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor.

Then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. We have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. CURRY. But all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have anything to do with the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I did not. I was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but I never asked him any question myself.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know who did?

Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz principally interrogated him, I believe.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that his responsibility?

Mr. CURRY. Yes; it was. There were several people in the office. It seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you explain to the Commission what you mean by that?

Mr. CURRY. Ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that your regular practice?

Mr. CURRY. That is the regular practice.

Mr. RANKIN. Tell us how this was done?

Mr. CURRY. This we had representatives from the Secret Service, we had representatives from the FBI, we had representatives from the Ranger Force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. This was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice.

Mr. RANKIN. By representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe?

Mr. CURRY. I can't be sure. I recall I believe two from the FBI, one or two, Inspector Kelley was there from Secret Service, and I believe another one of his men was there. There was one, I recall seeing one man from the Rangers. I don't recall who he was. I just remember now that there was one.

Captain Fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it?

Mr. CURRY. No; I didn't. This was an unusual case. In fact, I had received a call from the FBI requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. And we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and I called Captain Fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the FBI to come in.

Mr. DULLES. Who was directing the interrogation, Captain Fritz?

Mr. CURRY. Captain Fritz.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how Lee Harvey Oswald was treated by the police department?

Mr. CURRY. So far as I know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. He was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. He had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in Oak Cliff. Other than that he had no marks on him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time?

Mr. CURRY. No; I personally didn't. Deputy Chief Lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there 24 hours a day as long as we had him.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know what was done about that?

Mr CURRY. It was carried out. He told me that this was carried out.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time?

Mr. CURRY. Well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you do about that?

Mr. CURRY. I tried to maintain some order. I didn't order them out of the building, which if I had it to do over I would. In the past like I say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. CURRY. I do not have.

Mr. RANKIN. Did anyone?

Mr. CURRY. Not to my knowledge. Unless someone from the FBI or the Secret Service, if they recorded it, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. How many times was he interrogated, do you know?

Mr. CURRY. No; I do not know that.

Mr. RANKIN. You never examined him yourself at any time?

Mr. CURRY. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail?

Mr. CURRY. Well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. But he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions?

Mr. CURRY. No; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and Chief Lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you mean by maximum security in your prison?

Mr. CURRY. Well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. That is a maximum security cell. Some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you do anything about furnishing him clothing?