Chapter XI: Part 11

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he came with anything over to the house. He could have one of these bags, I mean when he came to my home from the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. Now, this is particularly important to us. Let me take you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at your house.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, I asked him over the telephone where he was, and he said he was at the bus station, and when I asked him to come out, he came right on out, and when he came into my house, I think he was only carrying just a little handbag, they call it.

Mr. JENNER. What color was it?

Mrs. MURRET. Possibly it was brown.

Mr. JENNER. Brown?

Mrs. MURRET. I think so.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of material was it?

Mrs. MURRET. What the handbag was made of?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. I think it was just cloth.

Mr. JENNER. A cloth bag?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have it in just one hand?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It was not a Marine duffelbag or anything like that?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't too large, then?

Mrs. MURRET. No; it was small.

Mr. JENNER. The witness indicates about 14 inches.

Mrs. MURRET. It was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put their clothes in, something like that.

Mr. JENNER. And that's all he had on that occasion? You are sure of that?

Mrs. MURRET. When he arrived at the house; yes, sir. But he had things over at the bus station.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. MURRET. He had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, I know.

Mr. JENNER. How do you know that?

Mrs. MURRET. How do I know that?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Because I asked Mr. Murret to go over to the bus station and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he did, and they put it in the garage. He wanted to leave it there until he found an apartment.

Mr. JENNER. And did Mr. Murret go to the bus station with Lee?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That evening?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In your automobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he picked up the materials at the bus station and other packages; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you home when they came back from the bus station?

Mrs. MURRET. I might have been inside. I didn't go into the garage, if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the garage.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see anything in the garage eventually?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, I saw a duffelbag out there, and I saw ordinary cardboard boxes with things in them, and I don't know what was in anything. It had U.S. Marine written over it.

Mr. JENNER. Over the duffelbag?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?

Mrs. MURRET. Quite a few, I think.

Mr. JENNER. More than two duffelbags?

Mrs. MURRET. I could be wrong, but I think there were more.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and that there could have been more than two?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I think some of the boxes must have contained baby clothes and things like that, and in fact, I was wondering how in the world he got all of that stuff on the bus. I never did ask him, but he really had a load of stuff with him. It was all there at the bus station though.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long packages with him?

Mrs. MURRET. I wouldn't know that. Do you mean any visible long packages?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. These cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes that a person would pack things in?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I guess there were clothes in those.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any long flat package with him?

Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan wrapping paper?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think. Like I said, I knew there were all kinds of things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. Everything was in such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing machine is out there, but I never one time pried into or disarranged any of that stuff or anything like that. I figured that wasn't any of my business.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see any package that stood up on end at all?

Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any like that; no.

Mr. JENNER. Anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and hard?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything that looked like that. There were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that I saw, and I do know one time he was back there when I was back there and he pulled out a Russian cap that they wear in Russia, and boots, you know, these leather Russian boots, but that's all I saw.

Mr. JENNER. Did the Russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything like that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the Russian cap had fur on it, like the Russians wear in cold weather.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have any insignia on it, or a Red star, or hammer and sickle or anything like that?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I saw. What struck me as odd that was that Lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. I told him, "Lee, you don't look too presentable. I am going to buy you some clothes." My boys were all big, all over 6 feet, so nothing they had would fit Lee, so he said no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. He said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a T-shirt and pants, and I think he had only about two T-shirts with him.

Mr. JENNER. You say he had no suit coat?

Mrs. MURRET. No; and only one pair of shoes. I even offered to buy him a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get them out?

Mrs. MURRET. No, he didn't get them out. He said he just wanted to put up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, he told me, and then he said he would send for Marina, his wife, and the child, and I asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to describe her, and he said, "Well, she's just like any other American housewife." He said, "She wears shorts," and so forth, just like any other American housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. I had supper anywhere from 5:30 to 6 o'clock, and he was there on time every day for supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. He would sit down about 6:30 or 7 o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the house, and so then on the first Sunday he was there, he was talking--we were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "Do you know anything about the Oswalds?" and I said, no, I said that I didn't. I said, "I don't know any of them other than your father, and I saw your uncle one time." I said, "I don't know anything about the family; I don't know them," so he said, "Well, you know, I don't know any of my relatives." He said, "You are the only one I know."

Now, this was on a Sunday, and Lee had come to my house on a Monday. Now what he didn't tell me was that on Sunday he must have gone to the cemetery where his father was buried. That's right at the end of the Lakeview line, where I live. He went to the cemetery. I guess he went to ask the person in charge about the grave. Anyway, he found it, and while he was there he saw someone who knew the Oswalds. I didn't get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the family some way. I don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, Lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--I don't know where it was, but it was up on Rampart Street, and they wanted someone to letter.

Mr. JENNER. To letter?

Mrs. MURRET. To do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this job.

First, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't letter as well as my next door neighbor's 6-year-old child, but I didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "Well, I didn't get the job." He said, "They want someone who can letter, and I don't know how to do that."

So that's when he got into the subject of the Oswald family again, and he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the Oswalds in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right Oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in Metairie. She was the wife of one of the Oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always carried a map with him to find directions. If he wanted to go to a certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. He would always take this map and mark the route out himself.

So he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the brothers in the Oswald family, and she told him that everybody was dead, I think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. He said she was a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but I don't think he ever went back to see her.

So the next day, Monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the Riley Coffee Co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "I got it; I got it!"

Mr. JENNER. He was quite happy that he had gotten work?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Well, Lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "Well, it don't pay very much." He said, "It don't pay very much, but I will get along on it."

I said, "Well, you know, Lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. If you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." And he said, "No, I don't have to go back to school. I don't have to learn anything. I know everything." So that's the way it was. I couldn't tell him any more. I had told him what I thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else I could do.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart?

Mrs. MURRET. He believed that he was smart; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You don't think he was spoofing you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I think he really thought he was smart, and I don't think he envied anybody else. He thought he was very smart, and I don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, I guess. He didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. We didn't even know when he left this job.

Mr. JENNER. Well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night?

Mrs. MURRET. Did he read?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't read any books?

Mrs. MURRET. You see, he went out all day. He would get up and leave early in the morning. He wouldn't eat any breakfast. I would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. We always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. He would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk to you about Russia during that time, his life in Russia, and how he felt about it?

Mrs. MURRET. No; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. He said in Russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there.

Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the Riley Coffee Co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in Russia. I said, "Well, what do you mean by that?" He said, "Well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from Russia," but that's all he would say about it. We didn't talk about it too much.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the Riley Coffee Co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; as compared with the machinery in Russia, and he said you had to work hard. He said they work you hard at the plant.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his reaction to Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he never spoke about Russia that way. He would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. He wouldn't ever tell you anything. When he first came in and stayed with us. I asked him a few things about Russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. He never expressed an opinion about Russia at all. About all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. That's about all he would say.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't talk then about his views on the Russian government?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not to me. There was no time really. The way things were, like I said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss his life in the Marines with you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he never talked about that either. He did say that he was wanting to get out of Russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the Immigration Department loaned him $365 and some odd cents, to use to get out of Russia, and he said he worked for the Dallas or Fort Worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places--I forget which--but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and I said, "If you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" And he said, "Well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't want a third man on the job?

Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on the job.

Mr. JENNER. And you say that was in Dallas that he worked for this photographer?

Mrs. MURRET. I think it was Dallas that he said; yes. It was either Dallas or Fort Worth. I think it was Dallas. He said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. Now, I don't know if that's a true story or not. So then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have Marina and the child to come over here. I think before that time Marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick.

Mr. JENNER. Well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he spoke in Russian, in the Russian language.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to him about that?

Mrs. MURRET. Did I say anything about him speaking to her in Russian?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't, but I did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in Russian who was an American, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and I did wonder why he didn't try to teach her English, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "I am going out and look for an apartment." So sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "I have found an apartment," and I think it was $65 a month, he said the rent was. Then he told me about a Mrs. Paine who he said had been very nice to Marina who was going to bring Marina on down with the baby, and he said, "I would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if Mrs. Paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." And I wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and I told him, "If you have a nice apartment, I think you had better keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. He said, "Do you know how I got that apartment?" And I said, "No, I don't," and he said, "Well, I'll tell you. I rode around a while, and I decided to stop at Myrtle's house----"

Mr. JENNER. That's Myrtle Evans?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he said he stopped at Myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize Lee.

Mr. JENNER. He was telling you this; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked Myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from Texas, and so Myrtle said, "Well, I'm sorry, but I only have an apartment on the second floor, and I don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." Lee said to her, "Do you know who I am?" and she said, "No." And he said, "I am Lee Oswald." She said, "Well, don't tell me! Lee, I would never have recognized you." She said, "The last I heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in Russia," because I did see Myrtle one day and she knew me. I never was what you would call a friend of Myrtle, but of course she knew who I was, because we got to know each other at a card party where I was working at Jesuit's, and she asked about Lee at that time, and I told her that Lee had defected to Russia. So she told Lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in Russia, and he said, "Well, but I am back, and I am married to a Russian girl." So Myrtle says, "Well, come on, Lee," and I think she gave Lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment.

She told him, "We are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and I know because I manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." So they got in her car and went riding up Magazine Street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so Myrtle said to Lee, "Lee, this is great. You had better take this place." Well, Lee said, "Well, I don't know. The ceilings are high and Marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "Well, I think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. But I don't think Marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, after he called Marina, then they came in on Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left Russia?

Mrs. MURRET. Did he say why he left Russia?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. He never did say why; no, sir. I was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. We were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a Russian wife, and I asked him that question, and he told me that Immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that Marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in Russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't say that to me.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now you say that Marina then came to New Orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she came with Mrs. Paine.

Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine drive her?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they came in Mrs. Paine's car. In fact, I think he got that apartment possibly on a Thursday.

Mr. JENNER. At 4905 Magazine Street?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Thursday or Friday, or whatever it was.

Mr. JENNER. That was the ninth of September 1963; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. I guess that was the date.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee move in on Monday?

Mrs. MURRET. No; Lee moved in right away, on Saturday. In fact, he moved in on the 10th, I think, or the 9th. Anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then Marina came in on the Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Saturday was the seventh, Sunday was the eighth, and Monday was the ninth.

Mrs. MURRET. Of May?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I am looking at September; I'm sorry. Now, let's see. The 9th of May was on a Thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the 9th of May, and he moved in the next day; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right, and he came back to my house on that Saturday morning.

Mr. JENNER. That's the 11th?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and Marina and Mrs. Paine were coming in on Saturday, and they arrived there about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. Were you present when he did that?

Mrs. MURRET. I went to see the apartment.

Mr. JENNER. But were you present when he took the things out of your garage?

Mrs. MURRET. You mean in the garage?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't. I was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see--not all, but Marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car.

Mr. JENNER. Your car?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; our car. Mr. Murret drove the car up there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them put the things in the car?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but they did put everything in the car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them do that?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but Mr. Murret helped. I knew he was doing that. He had to do that. I didn't do it. I just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so I was trying to finish up inside, and I just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why Mr. Murret is considered just such a gentleman. No woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. A woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right, he always does it. So anyway, we brought Lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. He thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but we didn't help them.

Mr. JENNER. Was your husband helping to unload the car?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him doing that?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and Lee was putting everything in this one big locker, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Did your husband have any luggage?

Mrs. MURRET. Luggage?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he had some suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. He had some suitcases?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they looked like Marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. Like I said, he just had that little bag with him. In fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two T-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. I think I did. I think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. I seem to remember those.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a ready recollection of that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I do. I think, if I remember right, that I saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Of ordinary size, would you say?

Mrs. MURRET. I think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Regular suitcases with the handle in the center?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. About 28 inches long?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't see any long package?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. By long, I mean something in the neighborhood of 45 inches long, or something like that.

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. The only reason I noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and I had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff.

Mr. JENNER. There were two suitcases, as far as you know?

Mrs. MURRET. As far as I know; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Could there have been three?

Mrs. MURRET. There could have been. There could have been four; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But your immediate recollection is that there were two?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right. There were at least two suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't see anything like that. Like I said, though, when they put his things in the car, I was inside the house.

Mr. JENNER. Did your boy do any hunting?

Mrs. MURRET. My boys?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all.

Mr. JENNER. Did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your house?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, they had a small rifle in my locker.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what that rifle looked like?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; just an ordinary rifle. It wasn't an expensive rifle. It could have been just a plain shotgun, I guess. In fact, I think, if I can remember back, I think Gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that Lee had brought in there?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I'm afraid I don't know anything about rifles.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, we are on the 11th of September, and Marina and Mrs. Paine have arrived at your home. Now, will you tell me about that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they arrived that afternoon. We brought Lee to the apartment that morning, and Lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and I said to Lee, "Well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "Oh, don't worry about that; I will get all of that. I will have all of that in." In other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and I planned on having a lunch for Marina and Mrs. Paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was Mrs. Paine with her two children, Mr. Murret, and I guess Marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out.

Mr. JENNER. Marilyn is your daughter?

Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn is my daughter; yes.

Mr. JENNER. She is a young lady who was here this morning with you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, she was getting ready to go out. She had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when I saw the baby, I forgot who else was there. I said, "Well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and Marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and I think John was there.

Mr. JENNER. You mean your son John?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think he was there.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee arrived in the meantime?

Mrs. MURRET. Lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. So finally Lee said, "Well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and Mr. Murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. He said, "I will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. Mr. Murret, my husband, took Lee with him, I think that's right, and Mrs. Paine drove the others over in her car.

Mr. JENNER. From the time that Mrs. Paine drove off from your home, did you see Mrs. Paine any more?

Mrs. MURRET. No, sir; I never saw Mrs. Paine any more.

Mr. JENNER. How soon after that did you see Lee and Marina and the baby?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, you see, I don't drive myself, and I wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was 2 weeks before I saw them again. But one Saturday morning about 2 weeks after they moved over there, Lee came over with Marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on Magazine Street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. From Canal Street up to the 4900 block of Magazine Street, that's 49 blocks, and then from my house to Canal it must be 50 blocks.

Mr. JENNER. You mean it was 99 blocks distance from your house to their house?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them.

Mr. JENNER. This is Lee and Marina, now?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That was 2 weeks later that they came out to your house?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and the baby. I was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. It looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life.

Mr. JENNER. You had this feeling, did you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have reared some fine children, and you have grandchildren?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you have a knack with babies and children?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you seemed to have trouble with Lee's baby, with this baby?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the English language. Marina made her understand things in Russian, and so I took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and Marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then Lee decided that they would go out.

I had a baby bed in the house which I have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, Marina and Lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home.

Mr. JENNER. What is the lakeside?

Mrs. MURRET. Pontchartrain Lake. I guess that would be about 12 blocks from where I live.

Mr. JENNER. About a mile-and-a-half?

Mrs. MURRET. About that. They decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so Lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake.

Mr. JENNER. How did they get out there?

Mrs. MURRET. Marilyn drove them.

Mr. JENNER. Your daughter Marilyn?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she drove them out to the lake.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee know how to drive a car?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think he did. I never saw him drive a car.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen Lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think he did, because when they went to New York, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. I never knew him to drive.

Mr. JENNER. So anyway, Marilyn took them out to Pontchartrain Beach, and they went crabbing; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back Marina was fussing at Lee in Russian, and Marilyn must have said, "Well, what is she saying?" you know, so Lee said, "Oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. They are no different whether they come from Russia or France or some place in Louisiana. They are all alike. They don't appreciate what you do for them." Marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $1, I guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the French Market and bought a dozen crabs for $1.25 or $1.50. She didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the French Market. She missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. She thought it was a bum idea. She told Lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about 10 o'clock. They ate supper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. They played ball with the baby, and she came around a little bit, and I think Mr. Murret drove them home, and that was it.

When they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and Mr. Murret would be glad to come and get them, but Lee said, "No, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then I don't think they came around for a while after that. In the meantime he must have lost his job at the Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he told me.

Mr. JENNER. How did he come to tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. He called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. That seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job.

Mr. JENNER. That was what he told you?

Mrs. MURRET. Why he had lost his position?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. That's why he said he lost it in Texas. He asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and I could give him the message, so he had his name in at the Louisiana Employment Service.

Mr. JENNER. The Louisiana Employment Service?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that State?

Mrs. MURRET. State employment, yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mrs. MURRET. During that time he was getting State employment from Texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting State employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. I don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, I mean. He said he was looking for a darkroom.

Mr. JENNER. A what?

Mrs. MURRET. A photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in Metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. He did tell you that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. MURRET. That was when he was out looking for a job.

Mr. JENNER. He told you he couldn't drive then?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck.

Mr. JENNER. That would have been in the summer of 1963 now; is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; while he was here. I don't think he ever found any other job after that here.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee plant?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't. There's something else. Before he got this job at the coffee plant, I think he had Mr. Murret loan him $30, or maybe $40, to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to Mr. Murret. I told him, "If you need anything, Lee, ask for it," because sometimes I felt guilty. I thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then I told myself, "Well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so I just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and Marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. I did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would said, "No; we have everything," and then one time I offered him a spread, and he said, "No; we have everything," and the funny thing was that when they came that Saturday, he said to me, he said, "Marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so Marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. I mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. So they went home with the spread after all.

Mr. JENNER. This was when they first came?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. He had his names in at a private agency, besides the State employment, and he did get several calls and I gave him the message. One time I remember the man left his name, but I wouldn't remember that now.

Mr. JENNER. Might your husband remember that?

Mrs. MURRET. No. My husband was never around when all this was going on. My husband couldn't tell you anything, so then I went away. I went to Texas for 2 weeks. I left on July 1 and I returned on July 14.

Mr. JENNER. To visit your son?

Mrs. MURRET. No; my daughter, in Beaumont--Joyce. That was on July 1.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee lost his job by that time?

Mrs. MURRET. He must have. I didn't know it, but he must have in between that time.

Mr. JENNER. While you were away, he lost his job?

Mrs. MURRET. It could have been in between that time; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you recall?

Mrs. MURRET. No; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't say anything to you for quite a while?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then Joyce came back. She had two adopted children.

Mr. JENNER. Joyce is your daughter, who lived in Beaumont?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. You see, Joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. One is 4 and one is 5, but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. Now, Joyce, hadn't seen Lee before, you see, or anything, and so then Lee and Marina came over one day while Joyce was at the house with the children. They had come at about 9 o'clock that morning, and stayed till 9 or 10 o'clock that night. I was exhausted trying to entertain Marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak Russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that I had, and Lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and I asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read English, and Lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but I don't think Lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things.

Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything to her at any time, or to Lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more English than she evidenced?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I asked Lee about that. I said, "Lee, how does Marina like America?" and he said to me, "Well, you can ask Marina yourself," so I said to Marina, "How do you like America?" and she said, "Oh, I like America!" She said, "I like it; I like it!" Now, we always did think it strange that Lee didn't seem to care whether Marina learned to speak English or not. He was always talking to her in Russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. I asked him, "Why don't you teach Marina more English?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in August, I think it was, I was operated on for my ear, and during that time Joyce was home. They had been at the house before the operation. They knew I was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which I thought was very nice.

Mr. JENNER. You mean Lee?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "How are you feeling?" and I said, "All right." He stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous--like, you know--and I thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night Joyce came back to the hospital again. That was a Thursday, I think, and I got out on a Saturday--that following Saturday, so Mr. Murret was not there for my operation. He wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at Manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so I said, "Well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." I said, "Go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and John, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course Joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway I had the operation, and Joyce was to come up and get me on Saturday at about 11 o'clock, so then Lee called, and this was before Joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told Joyce that he was over at the Parish jail, or something, the one on Rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "Mother, I don't want to." She said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. She told me, "I don't know what to do." I said, "Well, Joyce, I don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "What's that kid in there for, before I bail him out?" She was going to give the money to this officer to get Lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. She said he told her, "Don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." He said, "Have somebody parole him." So Joyce didn't know what to do. She had been out of New Orleans a long time, so she didn't know what to do. This officer showed her the sign that they said Lee was carrying, and on it it had, "Viva El Castro," so when Joyce saw that, she said, "Oh, my God," she said, "I am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. She said, "Here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down Canal Street all day long with signs and everything."

This officer told her that he had told Lee, "If you want to carry these 'Fair Play for Cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "But you can't carry signs like that in the business district."

The officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but Joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so Joyce came on out to the hospital. She didn't get him out of jail. She didn't give up her money. So when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with Joyce. He wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "No, I don't have any money." She said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "I don't have any money to get you out of there."