Chapter XXV: Part 25

In many instances people come to us and tell us that they were repatriated when in effect they weren't. They are, in other words, sent here incorrectly to our office. When we clear, we find out that they are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir?

Mr. ISAACS. A repatriate is one who is a United States citizen, who was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself there, and so they go--either they go directly to our Embassy in the country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the Embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and so they are helped to return to the United States. In some instances they ask to be returned. In other instances they are ordered to be returned. For example, if the person is mentally ill. In this case we did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the role that I played in this as I remember--using my memory here----

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this, if I may, Mr. Isaacs, before you go into that.

Mr. ISAACS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how you determined that the Oswald family was a repatriated family?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. This is the way it was done: We get the information from the family. In this instance I think it was done by the intake worker. He got certain facts. I assume that Mr. Oswald gave them all these facts, that he went to Russia in a certain period of his life, and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned.

When we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, Mrs. Ruscoll, and she contacts the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. The person that she would call is a Miss Elliott, Miss Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr. LIEBELER. She is with the New York State Department----

Mr. ISAACS. The Department of Social Welfare. Then Miss Elliott called the U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, and, of course, we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, and they call Washington, and when they have this information it is relayed back in the same way. And then the administrator tells us, yes, he is a repatriate. And in this instance, this is what actually happened, as I remember it. We were told that they were.

Now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. In this instance he asked to be returned to Texas, and we did get enough information in our application blank to show that there was a brother--I believe it was Robert--who lived in Texas, and I made a telephone call to the brother. The brother was not in, and I spoke with his wife--I don't remember her first name--and I told her that Mr. Oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to Texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this cost. She was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this money--I don't remember the amount that was involved.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald present at the time you made this telephone call?

Mr. ISAACS. No, no. I make that call in my own office. We never make it in their presence.

Now, when I got this information, and she told me--her name was also Oswald, Mrs. Robert Oswald, we will say--she told me that this money would be sent. I went in, and this was the first contact that I had with Mr. Oswald. I--excuse me----

Mr. LIEBELER. You first called the home of Robert Oswald in Texas and spoke to his wife?

Mr. ISAACS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she told you that she would call her husband and find out if they could make the money available? Did she then call you back?

Mr. ISAACS. I can't remember whether it was just that way. I'm uncertain about that. I'm sorry about that. I think that she said, "I will call him and send the money." I'm not positive, but I think that's the way it happened, because I don't remember her calling me back.

In any event, I gave her all the information, gave her my name. We always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they don't know to whom to direct the money. So I gave her my name and told her to send the money attention Martin Isaacs. When I went in and told the Oswalds about this--Mrs. Oswald, of course, cannot speak English--at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you try to speak to her?

Mr. ISAACS. I tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single word. And he told me that she can't speak any English. But when I told him that I contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, and that we should meet this cost ourselves. And I told him what our policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet these expenses, if they can.

Now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the money, so we would have to accept this. He did not want to accept our decision on this. He insisted that he see the administrator of our office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and asking for the money.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had done this without telling him----

Mr. ISAACS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were going to do it?

Mr. ISAACS. We as a rule do not have to ask these people. What we can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the relative is, which I think we got in our intake interview. You see, I'm not positive about this, again, because I think that the worker got his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they usually get about relatives.

Anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. This is not anything unusual with us. We call, and if we are lucky, and somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are requesting to return to.

Let's see--you want me--excuse me. Did you want me to continue?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; please go right ahead and tell us.

Mr. ISAACS. Because he protested so vehemently, I went to the administrator, or Mrs. Ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview Mr. Oswald herself.

I do know that Mrs. Ruscoll spent considerable time with Mr. Oswald, although I don't know just what had transpired between them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not present during that conference?

Mr. ISAACS. I was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him.

Later, however, she informed me that she telephoned Miss Elliott of the New York State Department of Social Welfare, who instructed Mrs. Ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we proceeded to do, and Mrs. Ruscoll then notified him personally that these funds have to be used for the family's return fare.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not have the final conversation with Oswald on that subject yourself?

Mr. ISAACS. I had no conversation with him--my conversation with him was quite brief. My conversation consisted of just telling him that we were using these funds. It was a most brief conversation, as I remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you have any other contact with Oswald after Mrs. Ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't believe I did have any. I can't remember. What I did, I think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could be made for his return the next day.

Mr. LIEBELER. So Oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in New York overnight that night?

Mr. ISAACS. As far as I know, that is what happened, and I think that the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, I believe it was.

Incidentally, Mr. Liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him at all. He had some money on him when he arrived here. I don't remember exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at the hotel, as I recall it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you yourself prepare any reports on the Oswald case, Mr. Isaacs, as best you can recall?

Mr. ISAACS. When you say "reports," I would like you to be specific.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you dictate a memorandum?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. My telephone conversation with his sister-in-law I believe was dictated in there. I don't remember now whether I indicated or not that he would not not accept our decision. I might have put that in there to point up the fact that I reported this to the administrator.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you had this difficulty with Lee Oswald immediately after you called Texas, or could it have been on the next day, do you remember?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't remember if there was a next day. I can't recall that at all, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The best of your recollection is that you saw him just on one day?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes. I don't remember whether there was any other time that I saw him. I think he was in the office that one time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the address of your office?

Mr. ISAACS. 42 Franklin Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where Mr. Oswald came in at that time; is that correct?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald had talked to his brother, Robert, about this money that Robert was going to send to New York?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall whether he--not in my presence.

Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you did not learn from any other source that he had talked to Robert Oswald about it; is that correct?

Mr. ISAACS. That is right, I think that is correct, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald as to his return from Russia?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall having such a conversation with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI in connection with this matter?

Mr. ISAACS. Oh, yes, sir; I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have a report of an FBI interview that indicates that you had told the FBI agent that you received the impression that Oswald had had difficulty in leaving Russia, but you recalled a statement by Oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in Russia that they had to send me back home." Do you remember saying anything like that to the FBI agent?

Mr. ISAACS. I don't recall saying anything like that. Of course, this is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated around in the office, but I don't recall having--I did not speak with Oswald, and I don't recall having gotten this from him myself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard statements in the office to the effect that Oswald had said that?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You understood that Oswald had made a statement such as this to the intake worker when he came into the office?

Mr. ISAACS. Probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you heard in the office that he had made that statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the office, that Oswald----

Mr. ISAACS. I think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as I remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have obtained a file from the New York City Department of Welfare which contains certain documents relating to the Oswald case, and I would like to mark as Exhibit No. 1 on the deposition of Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, at New York, N.Y., a document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a clip. I have initialed the first page of this exhibit, Mr. Isaacs, and I would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document.

Mr. ISAACS. Sure.

(Document entitled "History Sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked Exhibit 1.)

Mr. LIEBELER. This is, is it not, a document which was taken from the files provided by the New York City Welfare Department?

Mr. ISAACS. This is, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared at a time when a client appears in your office?

Mr. ISAACS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to Lee Oswald?

Mr. ISAACS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a single sheet which is entitled "Resource Summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually filled out by an applicant.

Mr. ISAACS. I do recognize this as a form that we use in the department.

Mr. LIEBELER. That particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it not?

Mr. ISAACS. What happens is that the original goes to the resource consultant. We have a special section of the Department of Welfare that receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each place in the form, and we just filed this in our record.

Mr. LIEBELER. The original of that would have been filed in the records of the resource consultant; is that right?

Mr. ISAACS. I believe so, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will mark the single sheet entitled "Resource Summary" as Exhibit No. 2 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y. I have initialed that document also, Mr. Isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification.

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

(Document entitled "Resource Summary" marked Exhibit 2.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the Lee Oswald case?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked as Exhibit No. 3 on the deposition of Mr. Martin Isaacs, April 16, 1964, in New York, N.Y., a memorandum from Lula Jean Elliott, senior welfare consultant, to Mrs. Ruscoll, supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated June 14, 1962, relating to the repatriation from the U.S.S.R. of Oswald, Lee, and family, consisting of wife and 4 months' infant. I have initialed the memorandum to which I have just referred and request that you do the same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom.

(Witness complies.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as memorandum from Miss Elliott?

Mr. ISAACS. Lula Jean Elliott.

Mr. LIEBELER. To Mrs. Ruscoll?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That memorandum came from the files of the New York State Department of Welfare in connection with the Oswald case? You recognize that, do you not?

Mr. ISAACS. I do, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of any other event that you yourself personally experienced with Oswald during this short contact that you had with him that you haven't told us about?

Mr. ISAACS. There was nothing else that I could remember that was different from what I had told you. It was just this flare-up with him, which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was I thought it merited bringing it to the attention of the administrator. We don't always request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get involved. But in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the Federal Government is involved, because they reimburse us 100 percent for all expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring it to the attention of the administrator.

But to answer your original question, there was nothing else that I can recall. I remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we assigned a worker--it wasn't Mr. Lehrman, as I remember; it was some other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along with their luggage, et cetera.

The only other thing that I can remember was the administrator taking his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. It's an office that's over a block long--or a block long--and later I learned that she brought her there because Mrs. Oswald wanted to breastfeed the child and----

Mr. LIEBELER. So the administrator took her back into the office? To feed the child?

Mr. ISAACS. Yes; to feed the child.

Mr. LIEBELER. What prompted you to call this case to the attention of the administrator? Was it, as you have indicated, simply that it was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those?

Mr. ISAACS. Well, I would say it was a combination. He was rather severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time. He was insistent. He stomped around and simply would not accept the decision that this money would be forthcoming. And as a rule we don't get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. They accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. In this case we had a different kind of attitude. It was one of resentment, and we couldn't, at least on my level I felt I couldn't insist that he take it until--rather accept the decision until I cleared with the administrator.

Now, even Mrs. Ruscoll found it necessary because of his--I assume because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary to call Miss Elliott, and Miss Elliott did, of course, supervise our section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we used.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other information in respect of this incident or in respect of Oswald generally that you can think of at this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this report?

Mr. ISAACS. Well, I don't have any other information. All I can say is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that the--the name Oswald meant nothing to us. It did not cross our minds that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on TV and just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of Lee Oswald it still didn't register with us. It was after I had seen the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to Texas.

At that point I called Mrs. Ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this Lee Oswald was. She said she was calling Miss Bloomfield, who is her--the field supervisor, and they said that--Mrs. Ruscoll said that she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped to return to Texas, and it was that--I think it was that telephone conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled the very next morning by our central office. Miss Bloomfield works out of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave it to the commissioner, as I remember it, and, of course, then I read it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the FBI.

Now, beyond that, I really--I wish I could be more helpful, but I am sorry to say that this is all I know about the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have been very helpful, Mr. Isaacs. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. It is another example of the way in which the City of New York has cooperated with the Commission and with the FBI in its work. We appreciate it very much.

ISAACS. We are only too happy to help.

TESTIMONY OF PAULINE VIRGINIA BATES

The testimony of Pauline Virginia Bates was taken at 5:32 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, will you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. BATES. I do.

Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Bates, is it not?

Mrs. BATES. It's Miss. I'm not married. It's optional--I have been. My name is Pauline.

Mr. JENNER. Pauline Virginia--isn't it?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This is Pauline Virginia Bates.

Mrs. Bates, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr. I am a member of the legal staff for the Presidential Assassination Commission and have been authorized by the Commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the Commission.

Did you receive, oh, last week, I would think, a letter from J. Lee Rankin, general counsel for the Commission?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with that letter is a copy of the Executive order of President Lyndon B. Johnson on November 29, 1963, Number 11130, and a copy of the Senate Joint Resolution, Number 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission, together with a copy of the Rules of Procedure of the Commission?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, Mrs. Bates, you appear voluntarily at our request?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have noted from those enclosed papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, the President of the United States, and any contacts on your part with any of the parties.

We understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and I think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes of his?

Mrs. BATES. They weren't transcribed; they were copied.

Mr. JENNER. You copied them?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I meant transcribed in that sense. You transcribed them from longhand into typing?

Mrs. BATES. Well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, is that so.

Mrs. BATES. It was scraps of paper. Some of it was on just like bag paper. Some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could find.

Mr. JENNER. Where do you reside now?

Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you resided in Fort Worth?

Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, or profession?

Mrs. BATES. I'm a legal public stenographer.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been a legal public stenographer?

Mrs. BATES. In Fort Worth, 10 years--a little over 10 years.

Mr. JENNER. And is there a difference between being a legal public stenographer and a public stenographer?

Mrs. BATES. Well, I think so. I think I'm the only one in Fort Worth that has legal training.

Mr. JENNER. That's what I wish to bring out. You are a public stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law work?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--well, I haven't done any court reporting. I have done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native born American?

Mrs. BATES. Yes, sir--Forest Grove, Oreg.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in the Fort Worth-Dallas area?

Mrs. BATES. Ten years last November.

Mr. JENNER. And you came from where?

Mrs. BATES. Oakland, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your business or occupation when you were in Oakland, Calif.?

Mrs. BATES. Legal stenographer--legal secretary.

Mr. JENNER. That has always been your--insofar as you have had a business or occupation--it's been that?

Mrs. BATES. Except during the war when I worked in the shipyards.

Mr. JENNER. Out on the coast?

Mrs. BATES. Richmond. I have also been a waitress.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not intended as being personal. I'm trying to set the background. And you are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe I'm going too far.

Mrs. BATES. I don't have anything to hide.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I'm sure you don't.

During the time you lived in the Fort Worth-Dallas area, did you have occasion to come in contact with a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. BATES. He was known to me as Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. All right. With a person known as Lee Oswald? And, just so we understand each other, is the person you knew as Lee Oswald and the person I just called Lee Harvey Oswald the person that you understand to be the man who was accused of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. BATES. Yes. He was one and the same person. I recognized him.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Now, tell me the circumstances under which that acquaintanceship arose.

Mrs. BATES. He walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my name out of the telephone directory. It so happens it's the first one in the public stenographers.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he attired on that occasion?

Mrs. BATES. He had dark trousers on, a white T-shirt and a blazer-type jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket.

Mr. JENNER. And since he had the T-shirt, he had no tie on?

Mrs. BATES. No; didn't have a shirt on.

Mr. JENNER. No shirt?

Mrs. BATES. Just a little white T-shirt--undershirt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. It was in June.

Mr. JENNER. In June? What time of the day or night was it?

Mrs. BATES. It was in the morning. Let's see--I turned those records over to the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. Well, give me your best recollection.

Mrs. BATES. I think it was around 10 or 11 o'clock in the morning, on the 18th of June 1962.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What was said by him and by you?

Mrs. BATES. He asked if I could do some typing for him.

Mr. JENNER. Did he identify himself first?

Mrs. BATES. No. He just walked in. It's not uncommon for people to walk in and say, "Miss Bates, can you do some typing for me?" And I said, "Yes, I could, what was it?" And he said it was--that he was--then, he told me he was Lee Oswald. He said, "First, I want to find out what your prices are and see if I can afford it." So, I gave him my price.

Mr. JENNER. And what did you say?

Mrs. BATES. I said it was either 2-1/2 an hour or a dollar a page.

Mr. JENNER. A page being 8-1/2 by 11--letter-size sheets?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; uh-huh. And I told him it all depended on what the work was and could I see what it was. And he said, "Yes." And he brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, I think it was 10 by 14 or something--one of those large ones. And he said, "I have some notes here"----

Mr. JENNER. I have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that----

Mrs. BATES. No; it's one of those that folds over from the top.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--but I'm holding this up only for size.

Mrs. BATES. Oh! Well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little wider.

Mr. JENNER. The length of this, I think [measuring with ruler]--it's 15 inches.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I have some up at my office. I use them all the time to, you know, send abstracts out in.

Mr. JENNER. That's 15 by 9.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I am sure, as I remember it--of course, now, this was some time ago--it was approximately 10 by 14 or 10 by 15--and it looks like what I use.

Mr. JENNER. And it had a flap on it?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Just a regular seal at the top. I think they are Carrollton Clasp or something like that.

He said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of Russia. And I looked up at him kinda surprised. I said, "Have you been to Russia?"

He said, "Yes, ma'am. I just got back." And that he had smuggled these notes out of Russia under his clothes, next to his skin.

Mr. JENNER. We fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; June 18. I mean, when he first came in my office.

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. He said, "Some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil."

He said, "I'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em because some of 'em are in Russian and some of them are in English." So, we agreed that I would do it--but I hadn't seen them yet.

Mr. JENNER. You hadn't seen the notes yet?

Mrs. BATES. Huh-uh.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a package under his arm on that occasion?

Mrs. BATES. Yes. He had it with him.

Mr. JENNER. What agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do it? Had you reached a conclusion as to the rate?

Mrs. BATES. Well, I immediately lowered it to $2 an hour. I was anxious to get on it.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you become anxious to get on it?

Mrs. BATES. Well, anybody that had just come back from Russia and had notes, I would like to have seen them. And he didn't look like he had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. I thought he was just a kid.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And I do a lot of thesis work for college and high school students.

And then I started asking him some questions--"Why did you go to Russia?"--and a few things like that. Some of 'em he'd answer and some of em he wouldn't.

Mr. JENNER. Now, give me your best recollection of everything that was said on that occasion.

Mrs. BATES. Well, I'm trying to get it in sequence.

Mr. JENNER. Okay.

Mrs. BATES. We agreed that I would start typing the notes--and he wanted an original and one carbon. But he would take the carbon--he wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't want to leave----

Mrs. BATES. I couldn't keep a copy of anything.

Mr. JENNER. Did you agree that you would do the job under those circumstances?

Mrs. BATES. That's what he wanted--and my customers are always right.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Then, I asked him how come he had gone to Russia. I said, "It can't be very easy. How did you arrange it? Why did you want to go?"

And he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the Marine Corps and had taken elementary Russian--a course in elementary Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. BATES. While he was in the Marine Corps, as I understood him. He wasn't very talkative. And whenever I did get him to talk, I had to drag it out of him. He didn't talk voluntarily.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the State Department for a visa. And I asked him if he was an exchange student--if he went over as an exchange student. Sometimes--I didn't know. I was kinda ignorant about things like that.

He said, "No"--that the State Department finally agreed to let him go over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa to go over there but the State Department refused to stand behind him in case he got in trouble or anything.

So, he went. And that's all I got out of him, then, about that.

And then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought out the notes. And, as I said, they were on scraps of paper not even this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten in ink and pencil. And he said that he had had to just do it when he could. And it was about the living conditions and the working conditions in Russia. And they were very bitter against Russia.

Mr. JENNER. His writings were bitter against working conditions?

Mrs. BATES. And living conditions. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say when he had prepared these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Just whenever he could.

Mr. JENNER. When in Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah. Oh, they were all done in Russia. And he smuggled them out of Russia. And he said that the whole time until they got over the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of course, they would not be allowed to leave Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Did he imply that Marina was aware that he had these notes?

Mrs. BATES. He didn't say. He just mentioned his wife once or twice in the 3 days he was up there. And, at the time----

Mr. JENNER. Were these 3 successive days?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; 18th, 19th, and 20th.

Mr. JENNER. Did he spend substantially all day with you?

Mrs. BATES. No; it was 8 hours altogether in the 3 days.

Mr. JENNER. That was 8 hours that you worked, or 8 hours that he was there?

Mrs. BATES. I worked. And--uh--I spent 8 hours typing 10 pages, single-spaced.

Mr. JENNER. Which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were having some trouble interpreting these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was partly in Russian. And he had to transpose it--I mean, translate it for me. And--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. A lot of it was scribbled. He would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word phonetically _surreptiously_], he just had to do it when Marina would cover for him while he was doing this.

Mr. JENNER. Marina would cover for him?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing.

Mr. JENNER. And Marina was aware, then, according to what he said to you, that he was making these notes?

Mrs. BATES. Well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch for him so that nobody would know that he was making them.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing this--because he could have got in trouble.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. He--well, there wasn't much time to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. And he was very cool and----

Mr. JENNER. Cool? You mean reserved?

Mrs. BATES. Cold.

Mr. JENNER. Cold?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Very matter of fact?

Mrs. BATES. Yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to answer it, he'd just shut up.

Mr. JENNER. He'd just ignore you?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

He said he was living with his brother out in Arlington Heights. Well, I lived in Arlington Heights, and I recognized the area he lived in by the telephone number. I said, "Well, where do you live, Lee? I have lived out in that part of town."

He said, "Arlington Heights."

So--that's--that just closed the subject right there. He had nothing else to say. In other words--"Just don't say anything more."

And--uh--I didn't even know he had a mother. He never mentioned his mother. He mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it was too rich.

Mr. JENNER. He said that she had become ill?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. That she got the stomach ache, or something, because they hadn't had enough food in a long time.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was that they----

Mrs. BATES. He hadn't even been here a month, I don't think, when----

Mr. JENNER. Well, he arrived June 12--so, he was only--when he reached your place, it was on the 18th. He had just been here 6 days.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

It might help you to read that [referring to articles in local Fort Worth papers which witness brought with her].

Mr. JENNER. Well, I will in a moment.

I want to get from you--what was his attitude toward Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that goes. But these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "Anything you hear about vacations and those big May Day celebrations, that's all propaganda." He said, "You don't get vacations." And he said, "These May Day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. It's not a voluntary thing. And if you have a radio or a television and you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. You don't have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after dark."

And the notes were very, very bitter about Russia. And he never once mentioned the word "Communist."

Mr. JENNER. Either in his notes or orally to you?

Mrs. BATES. He just said "the party."

Mr. JENNER. The Party? Those are the words he used--the expression, rather?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because there was always a party person around and he'd report you.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He didn't talk very much. Just helped me with the translation and the notes--to read them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to become a citizen of Russia?

Mrs. BATES. Didn't know anything about it. Oh, another thing he said that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a 2-year visa and, of course, he married Marina. At the end of the 2 years when he wanted to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. They said, "You go ahead and we'll send her to you."

"Well, of course," he said, "I knew I'd never see her again."

So, he stayed 11 months longer until he could get her and he raised so much cain until they finally let him.

Mr. JENNER. Raised cain with whom?

Mrs. BATES. The Russians.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. He wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave until they let her go.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the Government of the United States?

Mrs. BATES. Never.

Mr. JENNER. Did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward the United States?

Mrs. BATES. No; I've thought and thought--and, of course, I've been asked questions all along. And he didn't discuss anything. If you got 10 words out of him at a time, you were doing good. He just didn't talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into detail on them. Conversations--he had actual conversations that he had had with different people over there.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, he had?

Mrs. BATES. If you could find those notes, I tell you--they were fascinating to read. "Inside Russia"--was what it was. And they were coherent and they were well written. And he had them all in sequence. I mean, they weren't just haphazard. He had them all in sequence according to city and dates and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. How was his spelling?

Mrs. BATES. Well, the English was fair.

Mr. JENNER. The spelling?

Mrs. BATES. Yeah.

Mr. JENNER. He was an accurate speller?

Mrs. BATES. Fair.

Mr. JENNER. He had misspelled words, though, occasionally?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, yeah. Mostly, I'd say, I don't know whether it was misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. But there's very few men that are good spellers. I shouldn't say that but it's----

Mr. JENNER. I am--when I have my secretary.

Mrs. BATES. Yeah [laughter].

College students are notoriously bad spellers.

Mr. JENNER. Particularly law students.

Mrs. BATES. Well--no--particularly psychology majors. They're terrible!

Mr. JENNER. Did you type all of his notes?

Mrs. BATES. No; not even a third of them.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me that circumstance.

Mrs. BATES. Well, on the 20th, he came up and he was--uh--quite nervous. Uh--the other 2 days, he'd sit right there at my desk and--uh--if I needed to ask him anything, why I would. But this day, he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting to know where I was--and, finally, I finished the 10th page. He said, "Now, Pauline, you told me what your charges were." He said, "This is 8 hours you've worked and 10 pages. I have $10, and no more money. And I can't let you go on."

And that's when I asked him if I couldn't go on and type the rest of them. I told him I'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he could pay me.

And he said, "No, I don't work that way. I've got $10." And he pulled a $10 bill out of his pocket and walked out.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in possession of these notes from day to day or did he take them back with him at night?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he took them with him. He never left anything. And he never left the office until he had picked up what I had typed--even the carbon paper.

Mr. JENNER. Even the carbon paper?

Mrs. BATES. Oh yeah. He took the carbon paper.

He did tell me that--I think it was the second day--that there was a man in Fort Worth--and he's an engineer. I can't remember. I've scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--I just saw the letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put into book form--manuscript form.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name George De Mohrenschildt refresh your recollection?

Mrs. BATES. No. Uh--I just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it didn't register with me.

Mr. JENNER. But it sounded like a man who is an engineer?

Mrs. BATES. He said he was an engineer--he told me that. But there's lots of engineers in----

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes.

Mrs. BATES. And that he was interested in helping Lee get these notes published. And he said, of course, he would have to change names and things like that. He had actual Russian names of people he talked to. And in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. But the man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. He had read all the notes. I never did read all of them. Now, this is what Lee told me.

Mr. JENNER. Lee told you that this other person----

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh, this engineer.

Mr. JENNER. And the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had read all the notes.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. Lee told me he had shown him the notes.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Now, I don't know whether he had read them all or not. Maybe I shouldn't say. He said, "I've shown him the notes."

And the man could read and speak Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. That much he did tell me.

And I just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, I don't know. I'm afraid to say. I don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. But he showed no emotion at any time. The man just never showed any emotion. He had the deadest eyes I ever saw.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. Did he talk about his wife?

Mrs. BATES. Yes--uh--some.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mrs. BATES. That--uh--she loved America and had wanted to come and that she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and stay. And that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and the shops--and that New York had just astounded her.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And Texas climate--uh--was really good for her.

Mr. JENNER. The climate, you mean?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And--uh--he never mentioned his mother. He never mentioned that he had a child.

Mr. JENNER. In any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned?

Mrs. BATES. No, sir; I didn't know he had any.

Mr. JENNER. In any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point at which he had married Marina?

Mrs. BATES. Never mentioned her. But he told me that he did.

Mr. JENNER. What impression do you have as to the period of time in Russia that was covered by the notes that you typed?

Mrs. BATES. Well, it was on Minsk and--uh--that one that starts with "K"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could get the time and get away from people.

And I don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together in just a few months. It was too detailed.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. I see.

And your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes?

Mrs. BATES. About--from the pile. I don't know how much more there was, really, because they were all sizes--the paper was.

Mr. JENNER. And, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance?

Mrs. BATES. No; I just saw the envelope. I typed 10 full single-spaced pages.

Mr. JENNER. That was letter size?

Mrs. BATES. Letter size. Uh-huh. And that's a lot of words.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.

Mrs. BATES. I wish I could remember more about them but--uh--I think my legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when you're not suppose to remember things.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. All I remember is the terrible living conditions in Russia and the terrible working conditions.

They are both the same, Mr. Jenner [referring to two copies of the Fort Worth Press, which Mr. Jenner was perusing].

Mr. JENNER. They are?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. One is the first edition and the other is the final edition.

Mr. JENNER. I see. But the text of the story is the same?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the time?

Mrs. BATES. Well, after I--uh--after he left, a short time afterward, Caroline Hamilton and I are good friends. She's a reporter on the Press.

Mr. JENNER. That's the Fort Worth Press?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

And we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and I said, "By the way, Caroline, I did a real interesting job the other day. And the boy that I did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be able to help him."

So, I gave her Lee's name and telephone number. That's all he gave me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. And they tried to contact him but couldn't.

Mr. JENNER. Could not contact----

Mrs. BATES. Lee.

I just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something like that, because he wasn't working. He hadn't gotten a job. And he was real worried about it, because he needed one.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BATES. And I just thought maybe that they might be able to help him find a job.

Mr. JENNER. And they were unable to contact him?

Mrs. BATES. They couldn't find him. They went out to his brother's home several times--oh, I think, two or three times, she said--one of the reporters did.

Mr. JENNER. And when was this?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, it was shortly after I did the work.

Mr. JENNER. I see. In the summer of 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh; he was still out--I guess he was still out there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. And, actually, I didn't know that Lee was the accused assassin. I didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that the President was killed. I was still under such a shock because I had just seen him go down the street in front of my building and I could have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until Caroline called me.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh; that day?

Mrs. BATES. That night of the assassination.

And wondered, she said--I was out at my club--and she said, "Have you seen any television or listened to any radios?"

And I said, "No."

She said, "Well, have you got a television there?"

And I said, "Yes."

She said, "Turn it on--and then call me back."

So, I did. And there he was.

Mr. JENNER. And the person you saw on television--this would be the night of the assassination?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized as being the same person who you knew as Lee Oswald----

Mrs. BATES. Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. And whose notes you typed on the 18th, 19th, and 20th of June?

Mrs. BATES. 1962.

Mr. JENNER. 1962?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you were firm in your recognition of that person?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, yes. There was no doubt about it. His eyes alone would--you could recognize. And when I also heard him talk, I knew that's who it was.

That's all there is [referring to newspaper that Mr. Jenner was perusing again].

Mr. JENNER. These first two pages?

Mrs. BATES. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When Miss Hamilton called you, I take it she came over and talked with you?

Mrs. BATES. Not until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, it was delayed for awhile. Let's see--Thanksgiving was the following week?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Caroline said, "Well, do you want to do something about it?"

I said, "No; not now. Wait until I gather my thoughts and see if I'm advised what to do. I don't want to do anything that I shouldn't do."

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. Because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then even with the assassination. He'd just been picked up.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. BATES. So, then she called me Wednesday morning before Thanksgiving and she said, "Let's do a story on it." So, we sat all Wednesday afternoon and talked. So--it wasn't any spur of the moment thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I wasn't meaning to suggest that.

Mrs. BATES. No, no; I know that. But we tried to make it just the 3 days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because of all the things that happened since.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; in the interim.

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him or hear of him from that time forward--that is, the 20th of June, 1962?

Mrs. BATES. I saw him on the street twice after that.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, you did? This was in Fort Worth?

Mrs. BATES. Uh-huh. He didn't see me.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't see you and you didn't greet him?

Mrs. BATES. Oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. I was going down Houston Street to the bank and he was going into this--uh--variety store--Green's, or Grant's, I think it is.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody with him?

Mrs. BATES. No; he was by himself.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Marina?