Chapter XVIII: Part 18

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the photostatic document that I have just shown you was prepared before Exhibit No. 1, and closer in time to your actual contact with the boy and with the mother?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one you have in your hand?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And from the document you hold in your hand you prepared Exhibit No. 1, which is the formal report which was submitted to the court along with the report of Dr. Hartogs and perhaps of other personnel; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. This is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We will mark the document to which we have just been referring, which is captioned "Oswald, Lee Harvey--Charge: Truancy," and has "Youth House" written at the top of it, and which consists of 7 pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "Evelyn Strickman" and the date 4-30-53, and bears your initials--does it not?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Those are the initials of Marion Cohen, who was casework supervisor at Youth House at that time. That shows she read it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She read it also?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And we will mark the document Exhibit No. 2.

(Document marked "Exhibit 2.")

Mrs. SIEGEL. Wait a minute. Let me just correct that. Marion would have written her own initials. That isn't my handwriting. I never made an "E" like that. I don't know who did that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question, however, that this is the report prepared by you?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I have absolutely no question. This is my dictation into the record. I know--that was Sadie Skolnick. That was the undersupervisor at the time. That is who that S.S. is.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have initialed Exhibit 2. So that we are sure we are talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Sure. [Witness complies.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Exhibit 1 consists of six pages; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. After reviewing the report which you prepared in connection with Lee Oswald back in 1953, is your recollection refreshed so that you could add anything other than that which is already set forth in the written report which you prepared at that time?

Mrs. SIEGEL. No; I can't add a thing to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say after reviewing the report that you prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in 1953, that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of violence?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Well, I can only say from what I wrote in that report that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of serious emotional illness. Now, whether that included violence I am not prepared to say.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't say that one way or the other from the material set forth in your report; is that correct?

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; I would say that is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you would like to add to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its work?

Mrs. SIEGEL. I am sorry, there is nothing I can add.

Mr. LIEBELER. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Not at all. It is a real tragedy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, Mrs. Siegel.

Mrs. SIEGEL. Yes; not at all. Thank you. Goodbye.

TESTIMONY OF NELSON DELGADO

The testimony of Nelson Delgado was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Nelson Delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the Executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the Commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

The Commission will provide you copies of those documents. I cannot do it at this point because I do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which I have referred.

Under the Commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. I don't think you had 3 days' notice.

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and I assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the Commission understands you had with Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he was a member of the United States Marine Corps. The Commission has been advised that you also were a member of the United States Marine Corps and were stationed with Oswald in Santa Ana, Calif., for a period of time.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. DELGADO. Nelson Delgado.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are now in the United States Army; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your rank?

Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your serial number?

Mr. DELGADO. RA282 53 799.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you stationed?

Mr. DELGADO. I am stationed at Delta Battery, 4th Missile Battalion, 71st Artillery, in Hazlet, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I joined the Army on November 1, 1960.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work do you do in the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I am a 94116, which means that I am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means I can speak and write Spanish fluently. That is what that last 6 in that digit means.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go into the Army?

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Army at Fort Ord, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. And would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the Army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the Army up to the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, in 1960, November 1960, I reported at Fort Ord. Approximately 15 days after I reported there I received orders for Germany. I had no basic training because of my Marine Corps basic training took care of that.

December the 15th, 14th, around there, I left for Germany. And I arrived in Germany, and I served with Headquarters Battery, 5th Missile Battalion, 6th Artillery, APO 34, at Baumholder. Germany.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed in Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. I was stationed there approximately 2 years and a day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you stationed with the same outfit all that time?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Six months of the time I was with them; then I was transferred to a line battery, C Battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and I was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then I was--I asked for a transfer to the messhall so I could get advanced in my rating, and I was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and I have been a cook since then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you stay with the C Battery until you left Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you leave Germany?

Mr. DELGADO. December the 8th. December the 8th.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1962?

Mr. DELGADO. 1962, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you stationed after that?

Mr. DELGADO. Fort Hancock, NJ.; and from there I was put in the line battery, Delta Battery.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is where you are assigned at the present time?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you working now as a cook?

Mr. DELGADO. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No, not mess steward; first cook.

Mr. LIEBELER. First cook?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are not in charge of the messhall?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I am in charge of the personnel that work the day I am working.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that your MOS, I believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak Spanish or another language; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you take tests while you were in the Army to establish your proficiency in the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I took the language proficiency test, and also the OCS test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and I passed them all. It's in my 201 files, my military records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you pass the Spanish proficiency test?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. In fact I was offered to be sent to Monterey language school.

Mr. LIEBELER. To continue your studies in connection with the Spanish language?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You took the Spanish proficiency test when you came into the Army at Fort Ord; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DELGADO. I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., in 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. At what address? Where?

Mr. DELGADO. I believe it was Kings County Hospital.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents still reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. 303 47th Street. That's what my address was during the Marine Corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your parents reside in Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. No. My parents are divorced. One lives in Puerto Rico, and my mother lives in California.

Mr. LIEBELER. You lived at the address in Brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us briefly where you went to school.

Mr. DELGADO. That's pretty hard to keep track of, because I was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. But I went to school in P.S. No. 2.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Brooklyn?

Mr. DELGADO. In Brooklyn, until the third grade, and I was transferred. I went to California with my mother. I was there in the Park Avenue Grammar School from the third grade to the fifth.

Mr. LIEBELER. What city in California?

Mr. DELGADO. Wilmington, Calif. And then I went back to New York, back to P.S. No. 2 for the 5th grade to the 6th, graduated from there, went to public school, Dewey Junior High School--I don't know what P.S. it is--from the 7th grade to the 8th and then went back to California and went to Wilmington Junior High School from the 7th to the--about the 11th grade, and the 11th grade I went back to Brooklyn into Manual Training High School and dropped out after the 11th grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not graduated from high school?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I have my high school graduation through USAFI.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is the United States Armed Forces Institute; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you dropped out of school here in Brooklyn, did you then join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I held a job for a while at Van Dyk & Reeves, on 42d Street and 2d Avenue, in Brooklyn, N.Y.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a job was that?

Mr. DELGADO. It was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making Maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. And it lasted about 2-1/2 months, and I joined the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do both of your parents speak Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they both from Puerto Rico originally?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did they come from Puerto Rico?

Mr. DELGADO. My father came when he was roughly 20 years of age. My mother came when she was about 13.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately hold old are your parents now?

Mr. DELGADO. My father is around 48. My mother is about 42.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you join the Marine Corps?

Mr. DELGADO. Down at Whitehall Street, in New York City.

Mr. LIEBELER. What training did you receive? Where were you sent?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, when we left New York I was sent to Parris Island, S.C., for basic training. Upon completion of that, I was sent to Camp Le Jeune, N.C., for intensive training. Then I received schooling in electronics school at Jacksonville Naval Air Station, Jacksonville, Fla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember when you were there at Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. I was there in 19--the the beginning of 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the exact title of the school that you went to? Do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Electronics school is all I can remember. From there, upon graduation from there, I received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and I was sent to school at Biloxi Air Force Base, Miss., and there I went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about 7 weeks. Upon completion there and graduation, I received my orders for Marine Air Control Squadron 9, Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did you arrive at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. The beginning of 1958.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make the acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know Oswald while you were in school at Biloxi or Jacksonville?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He was past that already.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald had been to these schools?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn subsequently that Oswald had been in school in Jacksonville and Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. All of us in MOS 6741 knew that he had been there.

Mr. LIEBELER. For the benefit of the record, MOS stands for Military Occupation Specialty. Is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the MOS number that you have just referred to was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Airborne electronics operator?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. From 1958, I would say, until November 2, 1959, when I got discharged.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you were at Santa Ana after you completed your training, throughout your entire Marine Corps career?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Until the time you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; we all had access to information, classified information. I believe it was classified secret. We all had secret clearances. There was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, if I can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Observing radar screens?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And it would have to identify itself?

Mr. DELGADO. That's true.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. You know, each site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. That's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And what was the latter----

Mr. DELGADO. What outfit covers us, that we can see. And as I say, the capabilities of the radars, as I said before.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far out they can reach?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And pick up an aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and how high----

Mr. LIEBELER. And how high----

Mr. DELGADO. And how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And I suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets knew these things?

Mr. DELGADO. They all knew. What do they call it now--authentication charts, which is also a secret.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the nature of these charts?

Mr. DELGADO. Authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets--authentication. Pardon me. That's the word. Let's say this order, we can question it. What it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. Now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that I have. He gives me a code. I would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and I could tell whether or not this man has the same thing I am using. And this changes from hour to hour, see. There's no chance of it--and day to day, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed?

Mr. DELGADO. It's changed from day to day; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you were stationed at Santa Ana that you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the beginning of 1959. He arrived at our outfit. I didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. This is all before Christmas, before I took my leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was in 1957 or 1958?

Mr. DELGADO. 1958. And we had basic interests. He liked Spanish, and he talked to me for a while in Spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know--I was kind of a loner, myself, you know. I didn't associate with too many people.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old were you at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. I was 17--18 years of age; 17 or 18.

Mr. LIEBELER. About the same age as Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. He was the same age as I was. And nothing really developed until I went on leave----oh, yes. At the time he was--he was commenting on the fight that Castro was having at Sierra Madres at the beginning, just about the turn of 1959. When I went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of January, when Castro took over. So when I got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "Well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." It was a big joke.

So we got along pretty well. He had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what trouble he had in the other hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the way I understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. Came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. So the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. So consequently, they put him into my hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were these huts? Were they quonset huts?

Mr. DELGADO. Quonset huts, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And they served as barracks, right?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men----

Mr. DELGADO. Each quonset hut was divided in half. Now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. They were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. I was living in one room. Oswald in the other room. And then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. Him and I seemed to be the only ones staying in there. And we would meet during working hours and talk. He was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that--I don't know how to say it; it's been so long. He was for, not the Communist way of life, the Castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. He didn't think our Government had too much to offer.

He never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that I know of out or see anybody about it.

As I said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle did you use?

Mr. DELGADO. He had an M-1. We all had M-1's

Mr. LIEBELER. Carbine or rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. The M-1 rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have them in your quonset hut at all times?

Mr. DELGADO. No, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. And we went there periodically to clean them up. And at the time in Santa Ana, he was with me at one time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept it mediocre. He always got gigged for his rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another.

Mr. LIEBELER. With respect to his rifle?

Mr. DELGADO. With respect to his rifle. He didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. He would, when he was told to. Otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. He was basically a man that complained quite frequently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he complained more than the other Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, yes; a little bit more. Anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. For him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't take too well to orders that were given to him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; well, that's what I worked with him. I never called him Lee or Harvey or Oswald. It was always Oz.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oz?

Mr. DELGADO. Ozzie. I would say, "Oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" Fine, he would do it. But as far as somebody from the outside saying, "All right, Oswald, I want you to take and police up that area"--"Why? Why do I have to do it? Why are you always telling me to do it?" Well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you and Oswald stationed together at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically there were 11 months, from January to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. He got discharged before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. August or September 1959, approximately?

Mr. DELGADO. 1959, right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when were you discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. I was discharged November 2, 1960--1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't tell me has was overseas. I got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, Atsugi, Japan, and he was with the Marine Air Control Squadron, I believe it was, at Atsugi. There was a couple of guys stationed with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. I think one of them was Dijonovich. There was two of them stationed with him overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn whether Oswald had been any place else overseas other than Atsugi?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that he was stationed in the Philippines for a while?

Mr. DELGADO. No; not that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with Oswald had been to the Philippines?

Mr. DELGADO. No; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to Hawaii or the Philippines or Guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or Okinawa.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no knowledge of it at the time?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were about to tell us, before I went into this question of how long you and Oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. Would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember?

Mr. DELGADO. We went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. High score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many men were there?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, in our company there was about roughly 80 men, 80 to 100 men, and I would say about 40 of us were in the pot. All low ranking EM's, though. By that I mean corporal or below. None of the sergeants were asked to join. Nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. They mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say there were about 40 men involved in this pot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that Oswald finished fifth from the highest?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't even place there. He didn't get no money at all. He just barely got his score, which I think was about 170, I think it was, just barely sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sharpshooter is the minimum----

Mr. DELGADO. Minimum.

Mr. LIEBELER. Rank?

Mr. DELGADO. It's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. And then Oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "Marksman" on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was the lowest one?

Mr. DELGADO. That was the lowest. Well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you fire with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn.

Mr. LIEBELER. Missed the target completely?

Mr. DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know, going to the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets.

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other one fires?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you said before that you were in the same line as Oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And he was a couple of targets down. It was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. He wasn't hardly going to exert himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately how far away Oswald was in the line from you when you fired?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was just one over from me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The next one, the very next one?

Mr. DELGADO. Not the next one, but the one over from that.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was one man between you and Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Not during that day, because I was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and I wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, I didn't care, you know. I didn't want no competition.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you win any of the money?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many of the Marines won?

Mr. DELGADO. Just five of us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just five?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And which one were you?

Mr. DELGADO. I was--I shot about 192. I came in about third.

Mr. LIEBELER. My recollection of the rifle range from the time I was in the Army is that sometimes the scores that were reported----

Mr. DELGADO. Were erroneous.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were erroneous. Has that been your experience also?

Mr. DELGADO. Oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. By this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a 4, he will put a 5 in there. It doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an NCO line and they got a pit NCO. Now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the way it was handled when you fired this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was very little, if any, chance that Oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. The only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. The Marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. They want both scorecards to correspond with each other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the only time that you fired----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald during the time that you were stationed at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. DELGADO. FBI agents.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember their names?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. They talked to me about five times.

Mr. LIEBELER. About five times?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been three times?

Mr. DELGADO. One is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same fellow; then he brought another man in. Yes; four times. Two different fellows. And one time one was a Spanish--I don't know, I guess he was a Spanish interpreter.

Mr. LIEBELER. He spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He spoke Castilian Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. Castilian Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different kind of Spanish from the kind you speak?

Mr. DELGADO. All right. He could go out here in New York City and go down in Spanish Harlem and he would be lost. I mean it would be all right if 90 percent of the Spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. They don't speak that type of Spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other Spanish countries. It's like speaking the English as spoken in England, you know. You can't expect a man from Georgia to try and understand a man from England the way he speaks pure English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No. See, I took it in high school. But he had difficulty in interpreting my Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. But I would be willing to challenge him if he and I go down to Spanish Harlem and see who gets across faster.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of these FBI agents when they talked to you? Were they----

Mr. DELGADO. The one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. And the two other ones, I never seen them before, two different fellows.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many agents talked to you altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. I don't know if this Spanish guy was an agent or not. He never introduced himself. But there was this white-haired fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this Spanish guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there would have been four men altogether?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite sure about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately when these people talked to you?

Mr. DELGADO. The first time I came in contact was, let's see, about January was the first time I was contacted by the white-haired fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he the fellow who spoke Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was the man from the Red Bank office, I believe he said he was, Red Bank, N.J. And then 2 weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this Spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. They were all FBI agents though. They showed me their book.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when?

Mr. DELGADO. About January, about a month or a month and a half after Kennedy's assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been in the middle of December?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't think it was that close. Let's see, November 22--I think it was more to the last part of December, not to the middle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this FBI agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. DELGADO. Basically the same thing I told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and I didn't explain to him about the NCOs in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. He was mostly a thinker, a reader. He read quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agent ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. He asked me how I placed. I told him I placed pretty high; that's about all.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the report that I have in front of me of an interview that Special Agents Richard B. Murdoch and James A. Marley, Jr., took of you on January 15, 1964, at Holmdel, N.J., which would have been at the base--is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. It appears from the record here, from the report that I have, that the Spanish-speaking agent was Mr. Murdoch.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that this would have been the time that the Spanish-speaking man was there?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. That was the third visit I had from him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you remember?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. I discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up.

Mr. LIEBELER. They asked you the same questions?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; same thing over and over again.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the report that I have says that Oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; pool.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. It says, however, "Delgado said neither he nor Oswald came close to winning."

Mr. DELGADO. No, no; that is erroneous, because I won. He didn't win at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never told these FBI agents that you yourself did not come close to winning?

Mr. DELGADO. No; because I was--I was one of the highest ones there, I always had an expert badge on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were a good rifle shot?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; just like I got one now [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. That is an expert?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. This is a sharpshooter.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. One for the M-1 rifle and the other for the carbine--rather, this is the M-14, the new one.

Mr. LIEBELER. The scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not?

Mr. DELGADO. Right; in all our--well, I think they call them 201 files also in the Marines Corps--I can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. That's why they are so strict.

Mr. LIEBELER. And there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not tell the FBI that in your opinion Oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? Or did you tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. He may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI about that possibility?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, I told him he may have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "Maggie's drawers" on his side. Now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. You don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and I will say to my buddy, "Well, look, I want to try and get on line 22, you get on target 22, and I will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that, And when they go to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so I will try to work it out with the fellow out there. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You just have to take your chances.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by NCOs.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this?

Mr. DELGADO. They are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. See, the guy back there is also keeping a score.

Now, your NCO, particularly your NCO, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. Like if I was line NCO and I had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, I will have to come in with this other fellow, so I will help him along and push each other along.

You don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a 190 score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, 170 or 171, to make it look good.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just to qualify him?

Mr. DELGADO. Just to qualify him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So it is a possibility that that might have happened even in connection with this?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you came in about third in this pool?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place?

Mr. DELGADO. No. These men were mostly transients. Like I said, I didn't have too many close friends in the Marine Corps. I went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but I never got real close to any of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. This statement in this FBI report indicates that you said that neither you nor Oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, correct. I think in the first statement, too I said that I have won too, I believe, the first one he took. I won, but he didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first report indicates that you said that Oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. Do you remember discussing how you did with the FBI in the first interview that you had?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, the first one was at home. We had more time to talk, and I was at ease there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And where would that have been?

Mr. DELGADO. The address?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. 31 Oakwood Road--30 Oakwood Road, Leonardo, N.J.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of 1959?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any closer than that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. It's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. I could have said that, but that was the day I was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking now about the interview when the Spanish-speaking agent was present?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one of them kept badgering you?

Mr. DELGADO. The Spanish agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he badgering you about?

Mr. DELGADO. He kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and I'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because I couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the impression that he didn't believe you?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. But I told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--I mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an A in Spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in Spanish into English, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high Spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go in there with a college Spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know. They are not going to have anything to do with him.

You know, common Spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake when we go--I think when we go abroad, because we try to speak Spanish the way El Camino Real tells you to speak Spanish, and that is not going to do.

If you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. Speak like they do. If they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and this agent did not strike it off too well?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I am afraid not. We just spent hours arguing back and forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. LIEBELER. We just referred to the El Camino Real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a Spanish textbook; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One in which the Castilian Spanish is taught?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us some more about your discussions with Oswald concerning the Castro movement or the situation in Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. We had quite many discussions regarding Castro. At the time I was in favor of Castro, I wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that I thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things Oswald and I always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. Castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the Cuban people a break. But then he turned around and started to purge, the Russian purge, started executing all these pro-Batistas or anybody associated with a pro-Batista, just word of mouth. I would say he is a Batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. He and I had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it.

Castro at the time, his brother Raoul was the only known Communist, and I mentioned the fact that he was a Communist, but that although Castro was the leader, I doubt if he would follow the Communist line of life, you know. At the time I don't remember Che Guevra being there. He came in after that. And we talked how we would like to go to Cuba and----

Mr. LIEBELER. You and Oswald did?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. We were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. We are dreaming now, right? So we were going to become officers. So we had a head start, you see. We were getting honorable discharges, while Morgan--there was a fellow in Cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from the Army, and he went to Castro and fought with Castro in the Escambres.

Mr. LIEBELER. A fellow named Morgan?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Henry Morgan--not Henry, but it was Morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know.

So we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and I speak Spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as Castro did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. So we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you and Oswald talked about?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of Batista, American-supported government, you know. And one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that Batista was being supported by the United States, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of Castro.

Mr. LIEBELER. So against Castro?

Mr. DELGADO. Right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in Cuba, because now that our man was out. And we would talk about how we would do away with Trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. But then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to Cuba and things like that. I was shying away from him. He kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an English person, get with a Cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?"

I told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to Spanish, he started studying. He bought himself a dictionary, a Spanish-American dictionary. He would come to me and we would speak in Spanish. You know, not great sentences but enough. After a while he got to talk to me, you know, in Spanish.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much of a fluency did Oswald develop in Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't acquire too much. He could, speak a common Spanish, like "How are you? I am doing fine. Where are you going? Which way is this?" Common stuff, you know, everyday stuff.

As far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. He couldn't speak Spanish well enough to do something like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. But as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something.

And, let's see, what else? Oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping the Castro government. I didn't know what to tell him, so I told him the best thing that I know was to get in touch with a Cuban Embassy, you know. But at that time that I told him this we were on friendly terms with Cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. I didn't know what to answer him. I told him go see them.

After a while he told me he was in contact with them.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Embassy?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I took it to be just a--one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time I had the opportunity to go into his room, I was looking for--I was going out for the weekend, I needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and I seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as I could recollect that was mail from Los Angeles, and he was telling me there was a Cuban Consul. And just after he started receiving these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. He always had money. That's why.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you just say?