Chapter XXXII: Part 32

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I felt terribly sorry for her. I felt that Lee probably would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her to learn how to speak English, objected to her wearing makeup; anything she did he objected to, almost everything, and I felt sorry for her because I felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country and I liked her very much and wanted to help any way I could, and I was----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Marina was a particularly intelligent person?

Mrs. RAY. At first I did not because I knew her so short--I mean it was a short time. At the time I thought she was just quiet and a very nice little girl and I thought she was smart but I did not think she was extremely intelligent, but since that time I think she is quite intelligent girl. I think she knows what she is doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she was immature?

Mrs. RAY. Well, immature--I did at first, I thought she was little immature.

Mr. LIEBELER. A little immature?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; then I forget just how young she is. I was probably just as immature as she is right now. It is quite a changeover come over to another country. In your own country might not be considered immature but over here without speaking English and not knowing a lot of things, people might consider you immature where you really not.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times have you seen Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. First time she came over my house I kept baby at my house when she had to go down for questioning.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember when this was?

Mrs. RAY. In February, I am not sure about dates.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that before she went to Washington?

Mrs. RAY. No; she was already staying at Mrs. Ford's house. This was after she moved in with Mrs. Ford. She brought little baby over and I took care of youngest one, Rachel, and I went over there about 5 days later and babysat for all children, Mrs. Ford's child and they all have to go down to see lawyer; I believe Mr. McKenzie at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met Mr. McKenzie?

Mrs. RAY. No. Then I went to see Marina's house after she rented one in Richardson, then I went over to take her shopping and then went over and took Mr. George Bouhe with me one day. Then I went over one more time and that was last time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to Marina at all about the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. You know, I felt very uncomfortable asking all those questions.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did speak to her about it?

Mrs. RAY. I did ask her and I said "Do you really think he did it?" And she says "Well, I think so" and I said "Well, do the children miss him?" She said "No, she doesn't even--June doesn't even remember him." And then I asked if she was lonely. She said "Of course, I am" and that is about the only thing. I talked about mostly her personal things not about the assassination because, I don't know, it just seems I hated to bring up the subject. I think it is a tragic thing. I thought if she wanted to volunteer something, of course, I would be happy to talk to her about it but she did not and I really did not ask.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why she thought Oswald did it?

Mrs. RAY. No; we did not go into that so much. I just ask her if she thought he did it and she said "Yes, I think he did do it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask her how she had been treated by the Secret Service and FBI?

Mrs. RAY. She said wonderful and everyone perfect and I say same, everyone came to my house, they were very nice people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you read in the papers since the assassination a story to the effect that Oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life of Richard Nixon?

Mrs. RAY. In the papers?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. Richard Nixon?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss that with Marina at all?

Mrs. RAY. I did not even know about that. That is one I missed on Richard Nixon. I did not know it.

Mr. LIEBELER. The story was not that he had actually done so, that he wanted to do so and got into a discussion with Marina about it.

Mrs. RAY. That is the first I heard about it that you mention it. I am sorry, I must have missed the story and I usually read the paper but I missed that one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to Mrs. Ford about her conversations with Marina and her relations with Marina since the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; mostly I talked to Mrs. Ford about what she is going to do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go to school learn English and then she wants to go through pharmacists school. I think she wants to be a pharmacist. Again, I mostly talked about her future more than anything else with Mrs. Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything to the effect that Lee Oswald had tried to commit suicide while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mrs. RAY. I don't know; did I read that in the paper or what? But I remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but I don't know how or when. I vaguely remember reading about that. I think it was in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think you learned that from Marina or someone else?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear anything about Marina wanting to commit suicide or attempt to?

Mrs. RAY. No; never.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you spoke to Oswald did you speak to him in Russian?

Mrs. RAY. No; I spoke to him in English.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him speak Russian?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; he speak to Marina and baby always.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak Russian?

Mrs. RAY. He spoke fairly good Russian. He had the accent, the ending, every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were not quite as Russian would be. It was Russian definitely spoken by foreigner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he spoke Russian well?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; because I could understand everything he said and I think--I don't know, I think he spoke Russian as well as I speak English but it was quite well; Russian to me is harder to learn than English would be and it would take longer than 2, 3 years living in Russia to learn perfect it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think he spoke Russian with an ability of about what you would expect after living in Russia for 3 years or do you think he spoke Russian as well as that or better than that?

Mrs. RAY. His pronunciation was very, very good. His only mistakes were mostly on endings of words, you know, as I recollect, but I don't know. I think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would speak.

Mr. LIEBELER. After 3 years or so?

Mrs. RAY. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It did not strike you as being extraordinarily better?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not think he had any special training in the Russian language?

Mrs. RAY. No; I did not think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss this question with him?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about living in Leningrad?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; because--I don't know whether Marina told me or Mrs. Ford when I first heard. She told me there's girl came from Leningrad, you know, that is from one person to another, from Minsk to Leningrad; when I first heard about Marina they said she came over here from Leningrad.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't recall anything about hearing anything about Marina moving from Leningrad to Minsk, do you?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know, of course, why Marina moved from Leningrad to Minsk, if she did?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever tell you anything about how she met Oswald in Russia and why she married him?

Mrs. RAY. I do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love and married him but this we talked last few weeks, I talked to her about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us how that conversation came up and what was said?

Mrs. RAY. I think she asked me how I came over and I told her. I asked her how did she. I don't think I asked how she met Lee; I just--what did she tell me? Isn't it funny, I don't remember. She might have said something. I don't remember if she did or not. I think I did ask how they met and I cannot quite place where they did meet. Isn't that funny? This is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but I know they said they went together little while and she fell in love with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us what your first name is?

Mrs. RAY. My first name is Valentina.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never got the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of Russia, did you?

Mrs. RAY. Well, she never said in so many words but I imagine that had a lot to do with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say you "imagine"?

Mrs. RAY. If you ever lived in Russia, believe you me, you grab first chance get out of there if you halfway smart. After Americans came into Germany I had chance to go back to Russia. I chose to stay in Germany. I was so young when I left but I still know that life in Germany was far superior to Russian. I decided of my own free will not to go back to Russia. I could have very easily but did not want to.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, your thought that Marina might have had that in her mind when she married Oswald is based on your own experience?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; in Russia, girl would be more than glad marry an American and come over here. Yes; I base it strictly on my own experience.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion of Oswald himself as a result of your acquaintance?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; I thought he was rather arrogant and I did not think he was even--I did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly and very much of a loner. He did not seem to care for anybody. He did not talk to anybody. You get the impression he does not like you even though you did not do anything or speak two words to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. When I saw it on television, I almost fainted. I could not believe it. It was terrible surprise. My reaction is "My God, it's Lee Oswald" when I saw his picture. First I heard name; they said they suspected Lee Oswald and for moment, I could not connect name but I know I heard it some place and when I saw his picture, that is first I knew he was back in Dallas. I knew they moved to New Orleans. I had not heard they were back in Dallas. Of course, I immediately called Mrs. Ford and talked to her about that. I said, "Do you know it's Lee Oswald?" She said, "Yes; I know." I was terribly, terribly surprised it was him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Ford seem to be surprised?

Mrs. RAY. She was just as shocked as I was. I must say when I knew Lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then I knew him so shortly. It is not if I knew him for long time. I had no way form any kind of opinion what kind of person he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he never struck you at that time as being dangerous or prone to violence?

Mrs. RAY. I thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he was striking his wife. I think I resented him from the first time when I heard he struck his wife. I resent any man, of course. I probably met him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he struck Marina.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you or your husband ever give any money to the Oswalds?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said you gave some baby clothes?

Mrs. RAY. Baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes I just gathered from my friends and whatever I had left. See, I had small children, too. I have three, 8, 6, and 4 and at that time my 2-year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. She could wear corduroy pants and stuff like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever learn of anyone else giving the Oswalds any money or groceries or clothes or anything like that?

Mrs. RAY. No; I think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. I gave her some of my clothes and I knew we all had given them things but I don't know of anyone gave them money and I believe Mr. George Bouhe tried to help him find job; I knew that much and I don't know if they succeeded. I think last job, I think he had with some printing company, I believe Mr. Bouhe found for him. He was making $1.35 an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina have any money or did you ever see her spend any money?

Mrs. RAY. No; I never was around her much that she ever went to store. She never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Lee and Marina Oswald talked about that night Lee came over to your house?

Mrs. RAY. No; I sent them in bedroom and they talking. I think mostly it was he begged her to come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Marina never told you what they talked about?

Mrs. RAY. No; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to come back; he was very--and she left. She mostly mention he cried and begged her and said "I think I go back." I said, "After all, he is your husband," I said, you know, "better, of course, you go back."

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had any discussions with any of your friends or have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as to what might have motivated Oswald to do this, assuming he is the one who killed the President?

Mrs. RAY. Of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, I would say to Mrs. Ford; she said "No; I never dreamed he would do it." Then we would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone else but to my knowledge everybody I asked, nobody thinks he was connected with anyone, but done it on his own.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss why he might have done it?

Mrs. RAY. No; because I don't know and I don't think anybody really knows what prompted him to do such a thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with your friends and thought about any possible connection between Oswald and Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RAY. Quite a few friends called me and asked me if I knew anything about it and I said no, that I had no idea he would be connected with Ruby. He was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place like that; therefore, when I read article in paper where he had been in Carousel Club, I was very much surprise because did not seem like Lee Oswald. He was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and I talked to Marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go to nightclub. He despised them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has Marina ever indicated to you since the assassination or even before the assassination what kind of husband Oswald was to her?

Mrs. RAY. We talked little bit about that since--I mean this last few weeks, February or even first of March, I asked her, she said he was very kind to her. He would tell her more things than he would anybody else. He could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. He was positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my presence, it was uncomfortable. He would feed that little girl until she couldn't open her mouth. He said, "Let me see your teeth" and he would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until now she's rotten spoiled and Marina said it is because of him. He worshiped her, I should say. He did absolutely everything for that child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "Why did I do it; what possessed me to do it" but, I said, "Do you think he loved you?" She said, "Yes, I am certain he did love me" and this is after this all happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina ever say anything to you about Oswald's attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations?

Mrs. RAY. She never said and I have never asked her but I think I did hear from Mrs. Ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to me and that is only thing I knew about it. We did not go into it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed it with Marina?

Mrs. RAY. No; I don't know; that is private subject. I would not discuss it with her. She never volunteer and I never did ask.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that Marina was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the Russian group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything like that may have been the case?

Mrs. RAY. No; no reason at all. I do not know who it could be; most are older people.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason to suspect about Oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway?

Mrs. RAY. No, I did not know anything about it, nor did I suspect anything about that. I read someplace in newspaper something, trying to tie him in with something homosexual but I did not hear it from anybody at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not suspect it yourself?

Mrs. RAY. No, no; I certainly did not. At least I did not think he looked like one; then I don't know what one looks like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any information or knowledge to the effect that Oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No; in fact, I am surprised how in the world he could have bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to buy a rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. I want you to feel free to add anything that you think the Commission might want to know about or should know about.

Mrs. RAY. I know I forgot something when she was at my house. Mr. George Bouhe and I took her out to lunch. Actually, George Bouhe took us out, her and me, to lunch.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was after the assassination?

Mrs. RAY. No; this was when she was staying at my house in 1962. We were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had left her husband, with one child, could not speak English and both knew she could not go from one friend to another. First thing she had to do was speak little bit of English and I volunteered she could stay at my house as long as it is necessary and I will be talking to her in English very slowly and teach her as much as I could at the time and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. Actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, Lee Oswald came and got her before we did anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Marina there at the time?

Mrs. RAY. Yes; she went to lunch with me and George Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. Bouhe finally gave up trying to help Marina and Oswald?

Mrs. RAY. He was so disgusted when she went back with Lee. He would have done anything for her. He said "If she goes back, I wash my hands clean"; from then on, I don't know if he helped her or not. I know when I took him out there 2 weeks ago, he said "There's a woman living alone and here I am calling on her." I said "I will go with you, that will help you if you afraid." We went to store; she needed baby food; it amounted to $7, groceries, baby food.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was this?

Mrs. RAY. About 2 weeks ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe paid for the groceries?

Mrs. RAY. Yes, he said "I am 60 years old" he said, "I got diabetes. I have enough money to live for 30 years. I know I won't be living here 30 years." She said "I have money." He said "I know but I have money, too." He is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to this country he is first one to help them. He helped Anna Meller go to school and Lydia Dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired of dragging her by the ear. She did not want to go so he gave up on her but he has always been very, very helpful with people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever get the feeling Oswald was resentful--thought Bouhe and these other friends of Bouhe were trying to interfere with his marriage?

Mrs. RAY. I do not know whether he was resentful about that. I do not think he liked it too well but what would we do? See another Russian thrown out in the street. We had to help her; it was not interference with the marriage. It was necessity of keeping roof over her head and food for her baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question was did you ever have any feeling that Oswald resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful?

Mrs. RAY. I think he resented taking things from people because when she went back with him he was very unfriendly when I brought clothes to the house. I think he resented more people just gave them anything. He resented any kind of help, I think. I got the impression he was a bitter man because, I imagine when he defected to Russia, it was comedown. He expected them to give presidency job; he was American and should have a job like that and I think his hopes went down drain. He seemed like bitter man to me. He thought he wasn't getting his full share of things he should be getting and I do not know what that could be and I really did not know him well enough to add anything else to it because I spent, all in all, I don't think I spent an hour actually talking to him alone.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you cannot think of anything else that you think you would like to tell us, I have no further questions.

Mrs. RAY. I do not know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else?

Mrs. RAY. No; I cannot think of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming down.

Mrs. RAY. You are certainly welcome.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. IGOR VLADIMIR VOSHININ

The testimony of Mrs. Igor Vladimir Voshinin was taken at 11:35 a.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please?

Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in this deposition which we are about to take?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I do.

I want to add only that I will--some of my statements or even the majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. And, as a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which we call hearsay.

Mrs. VOSHININ. All right. And something else--some of the statements, they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be entirely correct. The sense will be correct, but not the exact words. You realize that?

Mr. JENNER. I do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you have?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. We don't expect any more.

Mrs. VOSHININ. All right.

Mr. JENNER. We don't want any speculation on your part----

Mrs. VOSHININ. I see. Sure.

Mr. JENNER. Other than when we might ask you as to what your impression or impressions are and what they might not be.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir; I understand.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Igor Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And what was your maiden name?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Semenov, S-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. And you are a resident of Dallas?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Dallas, Tex.--right. 3504 Mockingbird.

Mr. JENNER. 3504 Mockingbird. And you are the wife of Igor Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, did you receive from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, a letter asking if you would appear----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in which was enclosed the Senate Joint Resolution which authorized the creation of the Presidential Assassination Commission----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. That Resolution being No. 137; and also the President's, the Hon. Lyndon B. Johnson's Executive Order creating the Commission and fixing its rules and affording it its powers?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Together, also, with a third document which is the rules of procedure of the Commission?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents that this is a Presidential Commission created in the manner I've indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking from you and others any information you have with regard to Marina and Lee Oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in contact with them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. I do.

Mr. JENNER. And we understand that you have some information in those areas and I would like to inquire of you about them.

I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and Mr. Robert Davis, to whom I introduced you, is a representative of the attorney general of the State of Texas. Are you a citizen of the United States?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Naturalized; 1955.

Mr. JENNER. 1955; March 7?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. And you were naturalized in New York City, I believe?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In New Jersey.

Mr. JENNER. In New Jersey. Where were you born?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I was born in Russia in Labinsk. Well, I will spell you both names, because when I was born it was called Labinskaja--[spelling] L-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has been called Labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is.

Mr. JENNER. And orient me--where is that in Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's in Kuban Region. This is the Fore-Caucasus. This is Southern Russia.

Mr. JENNER. It's in the Caucasus?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; they are called Fore-Caucasus--[spelling] F-o-r-e--Caucasus.

Mr. JENNER. You are a person of higher education, are you not?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I hold a degree in geology. That's all.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in America, call the equivalent of high school?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend a university?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I attended first University in Yugoslavia for 4 years. It was philosophy and I did not graduate due to war. Then, I got my bachelor's degree in geology in Brooklyn College in 1953.

Mr. JENNER. That's Brooklyn, N.Y.?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Brooklyn, N.Y. And master's degree at Rutgers in 1955.

Mr. JENNER. Rutgers University?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Rutgers University--right; in geology.

Mr. JENNER. Where in Yugoslavia was the university that you attended?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Belgrade.

Mr. JENNER. Now, in short compass, as I understand from your husband who just deposed, you left Russia or were taken by your parents from Russia when you were 1 year old?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Something like that; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And in what country were you when you first became conscious of your whereabouts?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I was in Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. In what town?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Panchevo, next to Belgrade--[spelling] P-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. And before that my parents lived for a few years--I think for a couple of years in Bulgaria--in Varna Pleven--[spelling] V-a-r-n-a P-l-e-v-e-n--and in Sofia. But I'm not aware of dates.

Mr. JENNER. That's just by reputation?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Forty-five; March 21, 1918.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Where did you meet Mr. Voshinin?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In Belgrade.

Mr. JENNER. When?

Mrs. VOSHININ. First, I met him when I was about 12 years old and then I didn't see him for a while; and then, I believe it was in 1939, that I met him again.

Mr. JENNER. Where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In Panchevo. He was working there as a civil engineer--as a city engineer.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. I understand he's some 12 years older than you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right. Eleven and a half--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. And he was a civil engineer in----

Mrs. VOSHININ. In the city of Panchevo.

Mr. JENNER. In 1942?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1939?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, 1939; yes. And through 1942, I would say. Because he was in the Army during the war, you know, in the beginning----

Mr. JENNER. He was?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He was drafted to the Army.

Mr. JENNER. What Army?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yugoslavian Army.

Mr. JENNER. And you were conscious of that fact, were you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't--what do you mean, "conscious"?

Mr. JENNER. Well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and was in the Yugoslavian Army?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; that was after we were married. We married in 1940--January 21.

Mr. JENNER. January 21, 1940?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And after your marriage----

Mrs. VOSHININ. After our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the exercises--you know, the Army training.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe it was in 1941. You know, the war already started--remember?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1939.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. The war started in September of 1939.

Mrs. VOSHININ. 1939; yes; something like that. And then just after the Germans attacked Yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to appear. And then he returned back in 19--let's see, when was that? 1942--no; in 1941, I believe. Yes; 1941. I think that the Germans attacked us in April 1941--Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Invaded Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Invaded Yugoslavia; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there then?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you moved from Yugoslavia to where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany. First, they took my husband and they sent an invitation to me, too.

Mr. JENNER. To come to Germany?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To come to Germany. No; don't say "invitation", I'm sorry. This is just a joke. It was--well, they would just ask you to appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to fill in. After that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and there.

Mr. JENNER. You were directed to go?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Germany--drafted with other young people. At that time they were doing that.

Mr. JENNER. You were drafted into the work labor force?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Into the work labor force; right.

Mr. JENNER. And you went, then, to Germany?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Austria?

Mrs. VOSHININ. To Austria--Linz Am Donau--[spelling] L-i-n-z A-m D-o-n-a-u. This means Linz on the Danube--because there was another Linz there in Austria.

Mr. JENNER. And you were there in Austria until when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Until, I believe, March 1945--until the Russian troops started approaching Linz Am Donau--because already they were on the outskirts.

Mr. JENNER. Already they were on the outskirts?

Mrs. VOSHININ. They were already approaching. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You could hear the guns?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I didn't hear them very well--but Igor was at that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite distinctly--the city of Linz. And then we just didn't lose any time leaving Linz. And we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which.

Mr. JENNER. You wanted any direction away from the----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly opposite direction away from Russians. Let's put it this way. And that was our direction throughout our life, I'm afraid.

Mr. JENNER. Your direction all your life has been away from the Russians?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; away from the Russians.

Mr. JENNER. And you went to where?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we came as far as Kempten, Bavaria. And, of course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as you can go without being extensively controlled by Germans. Because, you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. We did not have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for it. Because, before we left town--several days before--Germans made an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. But, if we stayed, we would be put to death by Russians--so, what could we lose, you know?

Mr. JENNER. And you arrived in Bavaria--and were you liberated by anybody?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right--by lots of people. First, I believe it was French Moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through Kempten; and then came American troops.

Mr. JENNER. And you were completely liberated by them?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; that's right. It was good!

Mr. JENNER. You were pleased to see the Americans?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You bet! I was pleased to see the Moroccans also, you know--any friend.

Mr. JENNER. And did you come to America then?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And settled temporarily, at least initially, in New Jersey?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In New York--well, let's see. No. First of all we settled in New York. We were taken to the Diplomat Hotel and put down there. Then we lived at the Diplomat Hotel for--I'm not sure--Gee, I don't remember. Anyway, we worked in New York always, both of us, my husband and I, and we lived in Bayonne, N.J., part of the time in New York, and then we lived in Highland Park, N.J.--which was across the bridge from New Brunswick. New Brunswick is were Rutgers University is. I was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually come to Dallas?

Mrs. VOSHININ. It was in September--beginning of September 1955. I believe it was around the 1st or 6th of September.

Mr. JENNER. Did you come to Dallas directly, or did you stop in another Texas city first?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, we went on vacation before we directly settled in Dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to stop. So, we went to Houston but the climate was not quite pleasant there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in New York and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. So, we decided against that. And then we came to Dallas and liked it very much.

Mr. JENNER. Do you like the climate here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Very much. Yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. Your husband was very helpful in telling us about the Russian community that you found here, or the community in which you moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the Greek Orthodox Church. He said that when you and he came to Dallas, either you didn't know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--I forget.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No; we didn't know anybody at all personally. But, you see, when we were in Houston, we met there--of course, we went to the church first. That's usually your first move. And we met the priest there and----

Mr. JENNER. His name?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Father Alexander Chernay.

Mr. JENNER. Spell it.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] C-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "I". I don't know how he spelled it.

And then he introduced us to Mrs. Jitkoff's mother.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, too.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Let me think of her name. What was her name? She died. She was the mother of Mrs. Andre Jitkoff--[spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f. 3714 Locke Lane--if you need the address.

And, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and all the pros and cons of Texas life. And, finally--she spoke very convincingly--she liked Texas very much--and we decided to stay here. And she directed us to Mr. George Bouhe in Dallas. And then we came and met George.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't know Bouhe prior to this time?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who is George Bouhe?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, he's an accountant, I believe, and I don't know exactly for whom he worked at that time--but I know that he worked for a long time for DeGolyer and MacNaughton. And he was sort of a manager of the Russian parish there--Father Alexander's parish.

Mr. JENNER. What parish is that?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That was the St. Nicholas parish.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about this community of people.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, there were very few people and who we met there were Clarks--one of the first--Gali and Max Clark--that's [spelling] G-a-l-i.

Mr. JENNER. In what town do they live?

Mrs. VOSHININ. They live at 3712 Selkirk--[spelling] S-e-l-k-i-r-k--in Fort Worth.

Mr. JENNER. Max Clark is an attorney, is he not?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That's right; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Clark is----

Mrs. VOSHININ. She has also an education in the law.

Mr. JENNER. An education in law?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; from Europe.

Mr. JENNER. Is she a naturalized citizen?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I believe so, I don't know. She is married to Max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. She's not a born American.

Mr. JENNER. What I was getting at is what is her nativity? Do you know?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, she said that her mother is of British descent--Hughes. And her father was Russian--Shcherbatov. It's a very well-known historical name.

Mr. JENNER. Spell that, please.

Mrs. VOSHININ. [Spelling] S-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. Then we met a family by name Popoff--[spelling] P-o-p-o-f-f--Nicholas Popoff.

Mr. JENNER. Does he live here?

Mrs. VOSHININ. He lives here; yes. He's a mechanical engineer. I'm not sure where he works.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a native of Russia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I think so.

And I believe that's--yes, there were some people of Ukrainian background. I don't remember their names, though.

But, anyway, it was a very small parish. And there were also two priests--young priests--one monk, Father Hilary Madison, and another one, Father Dimitri Royster.

Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] R-o-y-s-t-e-r?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right. And that is where our troubles with George Bouhe started.

I mean, George Bouhe wanted to make it a Russian-speaking parish. And Father Royster and Father Hilary were believing that it would be much better if it were an English-speaking parish because it would be a church of the future.

And, of course, I know, according to my brother's children, that they always tend to go to English-speaking services, because they say that they understand much better English. They do not understand Church Slavonic at all. You know, that's an obsolete language, slightly different from Russian and different from modern Russian language.

So, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with George.

Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And here the trouble started.

And we separated finally and Father Dimitri decided to start a new church--practically from scratch. There were three Voshinins in his church, I believe four Chichillas--[spelling] C-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and I think that was about the whole parish.

And, after that, we did not have much contact with George. In fact, we resented each other extensively. But, with the years, the resentment sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly.

Mr. JENNER. But you do have social intercourse with George?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Bouhe?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I meet him at a party some place--at other people's parties once in a while, but----

Mr. JENNER. Are you employed?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Self-employed.

Mr. JENNER. Self-employed?

And, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; I was employed by George De Mohrenschildt for half a day and for half a day I worked for Henry Rogatz--both geologists. I stayed with George, I believe, just 2 or 3 weeks maximum amount, as far as I can remember--no longer than a month.

Mr. JENNER. And this was in 19----

Mrs. VOSHININ. 1955. I believe in November. Either end of October or November in 1955.

And then I started working for Henry Rogatz, for whom I worked until June 1962.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, George De Mohrenschildt?

Mrs. VOSHININ. George Bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. And he asked me to call George on the telephone. And I came there and George right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there.

Mr. JENNER. Drilling projects?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; there was one drilling project going on and he wanted me to participate in the geology.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known this man theretofore?

Mrs. VOSHININ. No, sir; I had not.

Mr. JENNER. Then, after about 3 weeks of working half days for Mr. De Mohrenschildt, you began full time for Mr. Rogatz?

Mrs. VOSHININ. For Mr. Rogatz--right.

Mr. JENNER. Also, in your profession of geology?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. What did you learn of De Mohrenschildt, De Mohrenschildt's present wife, and De Mohrenschildt's prior history?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I don't know very much about De Mohrenschildt's prior history--only what he, himself, told me. I mean, I can just repeat his own words.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You start and tell us what he told you----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then go from that to what you know of your own knowledge.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Sir, I'm afraid I don't know anything of my own knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us all he told you.

Mrs. VOSHININ. He told me that he had some former wives--that he had a wife, Dorothy, and a daughter, Alex, from this wife Dorothy.

Mr. JENNER. And that daughter's name was Alex?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Alex. Right.

And then that he had a second wife--I believe he said her name was Washington, or something like that. And I also believe that he said she was a songstress or something like that. I'm not too sure, somehow. He never talked about that.

Mr. JENNER. An entertainer of some kind?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Entertainer of some kind--right.

And he never talked about her and I understand it was a very short marriage.

And then it was Dee Dee Sharples whom, just when I started working with George, the trouble had started between Dee Dee and George. So, I never met her. I talked to her over the phone a couple of times but I never met her myself.

And then he separated from Dee Dee and he found--he met Jeanne [pronounced Zhon]. I believe that he mentioned to me that he met Jeanne before that time, though, I'm not certain when and how. No--I am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the Stoneleigh Hotel. She was living in that hotel. And then they married, I believe, in 1959, after those trips to Yugoslavia--two trips. I'm not sure whether he went two or once to Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. Were you living here in Dallas when he made his trip or trips to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes, uh-huh. We lived all the time in Dallas--all those years.

Mr. JENNER. What do you know about his trip to Yugoslavia--and start from the beginning, as you recall it?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Only what he told me about it. I remember very well that he was getting an offer from somebody in Washington, D.C., to go to Yugoslavia. And, somehow, George didn't like very much this idea, because he told me he will go to Yugoslavia if he will have to go--something to that extent. I understood that if he goes very well in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to Yugoslavia.

But, at that time, he was preferring to work in Texas and drill wells rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from Yugoslavia.

You see, there actually are two periods in George's life.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Tell us about it.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went to Yugoslavia and after he went to Yugoslavia. Because--of course, I might be quite wrong about it. This is my own impression of the whole thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; well, that's what we want.

Now, you were living here in Dallas when he went to----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Before he went.

Mr. JENNER. At the time he went to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; uh-huh.

Mr. JENNER. And you had these conversations with him about going to Yugoslavia before he left?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. And you know he went?

Mrs. VOSHININ. And I know he went; right.

Mr. JENNER. You know, by reputation, that he went to Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. What reputation?

Mr. JENNER. Well, by what was said. It was said that he went to Yugoslavia. You do know----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; but then he sent us postcards from Yugoslavia.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. VOSHININ. So, we knew for sure that he was there. And then he brought back--that I know for sure that he went to Yugoslavia--and he brought the photo pictures unmistakably Yugoslavian that he brought back--photographs, you know, that were Yugoslavian.

Some of them I knew--some of the places.

Mr. JENNER. You knew some of the places in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was over there about how long?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I thought he was there about a year--something like that.

Mr. JENNER. And this was when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. I think it was in--now, that I cannot place exactly. I think in 1957--in 1956 and 1957; or 1957 and beginning of 1958. I'm not too sure. But anyway, what I remember that in 1959--it was before 1959, because in 1959 we went to Fifth Petroleum Congress in New York City and there we met George and his old friends from Yugoslavia. So, that would have been the year before that that he went. There was a delegation of Yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us.

Mr. JENNER. And you gathered, from those introductions and talking, that they were people in the Yugoslavian delegation to the Fifth Petroleum Congress who knew George?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Knew George very well; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did they speak of his having been there, or what was said that led you to affirm that he had been in Yugoslavia?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together with those people. We just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to talk to the people from behind the Iron Curtain. And I had definite feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason.

Mr. JENNER. Because of your long stay in Yugoslavia, both you and your husband could have spoken with them? You are familiar with----

Mrs. VOSHININ. Oh, they talked our own language. Certainly.

And we just--I just met the whole group once, and then one fellow was there who was brought up also in Banat region--[spelling] B-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of Panchevo, where I grew up. And he was very eager to talk. And I had the impression that he was definitely afraid.

Mr. JENNER. Afraid to talk to you?

Mrs. VOSHININ. You know what he did? For some reason he would say--"Would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and let's talk?" And we would say a few words and they would come and he would immediately cease talking, you know.

And then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd that he would like so to talk. I don't know. That was just funny behavior--really.

Mr. JENNER. And this Fifth Petroleum Conference was when?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In 1959--end of May and beginning of June, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Were you going to tell us about the so-called second period of George De Mohrenschildt's career?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Well, I would call it the second period because, first of all, I must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the second period, we were not on speaking terms with George and Jeanne for over a year. So, I cannot tell anything about that period.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mrs. VOSHININ. That was--well, from some cracks they made. I mean--no--well, okay. It was a silly joke, I believe.

But Jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to Mr. Khrushchev, you know.

Now, I don't know whether I made it clear to the gentlemen from the FBI. So, I would rather say this now.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mrs. VOSHININ. But she never sent this telegram. George told me she never did send it. But, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really angry. And it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their talking in left direction----

Mr. JENNER. Their talking what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. In left direction, I mean. They were liberals, you know, and once in a while they were just unpleasant.

Mr. JENNER. Was George De Mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife the liberal?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Wife was a liberal, definite; but George would talk--could talk either way. George--well, if he would, for example, think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something pro-Fascistic, he would do that.

Mr. JENNER. Saying something what?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Pro-Fascistic, you know--pro-Nazi.

Mr. JENNER. Pro-Nazi?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Yes; he would do that by all means. If he knew that you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise Communists, you know. Communists--not communism. In fact, I never heard George--not necessarily communism itself. In fact, I never heard George praising the Communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several ways.

Mr. JENNER. He was a provocative personality, was he?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Definitely.

Mr. JENNER. He sought to provoke argument?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Exactly. And to say exactly the opposite. Something that you will disagree, and start arguing. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. He would take either side?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Either side.

Mr. JENNER. Always opposite to the other person?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Right.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mrs. VOSHININ. And yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite sympathy for the--I would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in particular.

Mr. DAVIS. I wonder if I might ask a question?

Mr. JENNER. Sure.

Mr. DAVIS. Did you all ever meet people named the Kelvin Fords?

Mrs. VOSHININ. Kelvin or Declan Ford? I met Declan Ford.

Mr. DAVIS. I mean Declan. Excuse me.

Mrs. VOSHININ. Declan. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. Do you know them?