Chapter XII: Part 12

Also, Joyce had found out that he had been in there since Friday. You see, Joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so Joyce asked him, "How long have you been in here?" and he said, "I don't know how long I have been in here," and Joyce said, "I know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "Well, just come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I don't know; I'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "I don't have any money," and then he said, "Well, I'll tell you what you do." He said, "I want you to go out to the apartment and see Marina, because Marina has $70.00 and you tell Marina to get that money and come and get me out," and Joyce said, "Well, I have to get mother into bed, and I have no one to keep my two children while I run up there," and he said, "Well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime Joyce told me what he had said, and I told her, "Well, I don't know. I don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that Lee had had a fight with some Cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about Lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that Lee was out.

Now, we didn't see Lee though. I guess he went on home. Then Mr. Murret came back from Manresa on Sunday evening, or Sunday night I believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. He went right out to their apartment to talk to Lee, and he asked Lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any Commie group, and Lee said no, he wasn't, and Mr. Murret told him, he said, "You be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and Lee said, "Don't worry, I'll show up," and he told Lee, he said, "You ought to get out and find yourself a job." "You have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see Lee any more until Labor Day, I believe it was.

Lee called up that morning, and he said he and Marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and I said, not right away, but suppose they come over around 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, because I think I was busy that morning, or something, so they did. They came on the bus, and Mr. Murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and I asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but I don't think they had. I told them I would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so I did, and I made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, I don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls.

I made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. John was there too. After they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and John brought them home.

Mr. JENNER. In his car?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. I might say too that Mr. Murret talked to Lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach Marina how to speak the English language. He said, "Lee, we love Marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with Marina, because you speak to her all the time in Russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't know what is going on with us. Don't you think you should teach her the English language?" and Lee said, "No." Then he said, "I'll tell you right now, I will never teach it to her," and then he said, "I don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." He said, "I am not going to teach her, because I don't want to lose my Russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the English language, but at the same time he kept on talking in Russian to her.

I asked him, "Why do you want to keep up your Russian, Lee; do you intend to go back to Russia?" but something happened right then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. So we brought them home. John brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on Palmer Avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. It's a large home on Palmer Avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more.

Mr. JENNER. Is that the last time you saw either one of them?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise?

Mrs. MURRET. No, nothing. Then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the FBI.

Mr. JENNER. That was Labor Day, was it?

Mrs. MURRET. No. Labor Day was the last day I saw them. This was a few days after Labor Day, I think.

Mr. JENNER. After Labor Day?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They came to the house and knocked at the door, and I went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "Does a young couple live here?" and I said, "No; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "Do you know Lee Oswald?" and I said, "Yes, I do; he's my nephew," and he said, "Well, do you know where he lives?" and I said, "Well, yes, he lives in the 4900 block of Magazine Street. I don't know the number, but it's in the 4900 block," and then they told me who they were.

Mr. JENNER. That's when they told you they were FBI agents?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Then the next day they came back, and they told me that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. I said, "Well, probably that's the same lady who brought Marina here from Texas, and took them back to Texas."

Mr. JENNER. This was the 20th of September, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, I think so, and that's the last I knew of them. I never heard anything else about them, but now, I skipped over something--in between that time he called one time, and he said Mrs. Paine was going up to see her relatives, I think, and that she was going to pass through New Orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to Texas, or anything like that. He just said Mrs. Paine was going to come through here and visit with them. He also said that Mrs. Paine knew a Tulane professor.

Mr. JENNER. A Tulane professor?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; a Tulane professor. He could have been a language professor, I imagine, because I remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in Moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to Lee's house. That I didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on Russia, the way I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. Who showed the slides?

Mrs. MURRET. The professor, but I think Mrs. Paine was the one who knew the professor and all that.

Mr. JENNER. You say his daughter is in school in Moscow?

Mrs. MURRET. He is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. That was my understanding.

Mr. JENNER. In Moscow?

Mrs. MURRET. I think he said Moscow, but that's the last I heard from Lee Oswald and Marina.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me one thing you left out?

Mrs. MURRET. What's that?

Mr. JENNER. The trip over to Mobile.

Mrs. MURRET. Oh. Well, that came in--I don't remember the date.

Mr. JENNER. Was it sometime in July or August of 1963, somewhere around there?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, Lee wasn't working about that time, and my son Gene was over in Mobile, and he hadn't seen Lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring Lee over so he could see him. Gene had graduated from Loyola and had went into the Service. He was in there for about 3 years, and when they were activated, they went into Germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school.

Mr. JENNER. At Loyola?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, for 3 years, and then he decided to become a Jesuit.

Mr. JENNER. A Jesuit priest?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. So he was over at Mobile by then, and naturally when I wrote to him I told him about Lee, and he said he would like very much to see Lee, and that he would like for Lee to come up there and bring Marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take Marina and Lee up to Mobile. We left on a Saturday around noon, and I believe Joyce was with us, and also her two children.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you gone on that trip?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, we came back that Sunday afternoon, or, we left there about 2 o'clock, I think it was.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been any discussion in advance about Lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school?

Mrs. MURRET. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. What's the name of that school, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. What school is that?

Mr. JENNER. At Mobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Where Gene was?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. The Jesuit House of Study.

Mr. JENNER. The Jesuit House of Study at Mobile, Ala.?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, Mobile. So Gene asked us to bring Lee and Marina over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe Lee could speak on his experiences in Russia.

Mr. JENNER. Then there was a discussion in advance of Lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Only that he might speak about his experiences in Russia is all. There wasn't anything else arranged that I know of, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. Was this in a conversation between you and your son?

Mrs. MURRET. No, by letter that was.

Mr. JENNER. By letter?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes. We never would get to see Gene, you see, unless we would go over there. He wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. But they do allow you to visit every so often.

Mr. JENNER. Is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission?

Mrs. MURRET. No, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home.

Mr. JENNER. But he may write you?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and then we visit so many times a year--I mean, we go up there, but that's all. Now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. We are allowed to do that.

Mr. JENNER. But he can't call you?

Mrs. MURRET. No, he can't call us.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, they just don't like it.

Mr. JENNER. Do they like you to call up there? In other words, do they mind if you call him?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't think they like it, but, like I said, on holidays or something we can do it.

Mr. JENNER. Was that one of the rules of the school authorities over there?

Mrs. MURRET. I guess so, because otherwise Gene would call us.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, tell me about your trip over there. Just what happened?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, when I saw Lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and I said, "Oh, Lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. He kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. He didn't want me to get him another shirt. He just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. He was so independent. Well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet.

Mr. JENNER. That's you and your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. And Joyce.

Mr. JENNER. Joyce, your daughter?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And her two children?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And Lee and Marina, and their child June?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, and Ron and Jill.

Mr. JENNER. And Ron and Jill?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, they are Joyce's children, and Mr. Murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. Now, when Lee and Marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. I was really surprised, especially at Marina. She had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to Marina.

Mr. JENNER. Always?

Mrs. MURRET. Always. Now, what he did at home--how he acted around her there, I don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. He would, I mean, open the car door for her, and so forth--very attentive. He would pull the chair out for her and things like that. He was very well mannered. I have to say that for him.

Mr. JENNER. What was her attitude toward him?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, she seemed the same way. They seemed to get along very nicely together, I thought, when they were here in New Orleans. They would take a ride out the French Market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. They got a big bang out of doing things like that.

Now, Marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but Marina didn't want any treatment. She said she didn't need any, and it seemed like Lee must have had her at Charity Hospital, I think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your presence?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. No discussion about anything like that by anybody?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did see one around there.

Mr. JENNER. You never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner?

Mrs. MURRET. No; but I didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. The only thing I remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attend this lecture that Lee gave over in Mobile?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no; women couldn't attend.

Mr. JENNER. Was that on a Saturday night?

Mrs. MURRET. It was on a Saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon.

Mr. JENNER. It was just for the boys from the House of Study, is that your understanding?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right. No women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke Russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in Russian, of course, so Gene told him that Marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with Marina in Russian, and so he and Marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed Marina the chapel, and so forth, and I don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in Russian. So I don't know what all they were talking about. So then after they talked for a while, he left. Now, after the talk Lee gave at the meeting, I asked Gene, "Well, how was it?" and he said, "Well, it was all right."

Previous to that time, I had said to Lee--I knew that Lee was going to talk about being in Russia, so I said to Lee, "Maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "Oh, don't worry about me; I give talks all the time."

Mr. JENNER. He said he gave talks all the time?

Mrs. MURRET. That's what he said. He said, "I'm used to that." He said, "I give talks all the time." I asked Marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked Lee about it, so they were talking it over in Russian, so I don't know what they were saying.

Mr. JENNER. Did she go with you to mass the next morning?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say she liked it, or what did she say?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she said, "I like your church very much."

Mr. JENNER. Marina said that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I said, "Marina, I'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and I said to her, "I wish you would become a Catholic."

Mr. JENNER. Marina could converse to some extent in English, could she not? She could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I could make her understand most things, you know, about what I was talking about. Now, another thing, Lee didn't want the baby to be baptized.

Mr. JENNER. Who didn't?

Mrs. MURRET. Lee. He told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the Lutheran religion. Marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the Orthodox Church, and she went ahead and did it, and I think that's something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church.

Mr. JENNER. Had this occurred before they came to New Orleans? Had the baby been baptized before that?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think it was in Dallas or Fort Worth. I don't know which.

Mr. JENNER. Did any other incident arise that you can think of between Marina and Lee that might help the Commission in its investigation?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. He just said, "Give me that" and she said, "Don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "Well, I'm the Commander around here," but of course I don't think he really meant that the way it sounded.

Mr. JENNER. You think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of speech?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; with no meaning. In fact, I didn't think anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that Lee was arrogant?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't think that. I think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, I mean, in the way they act toward you, and with Lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, I guess you would call it, but he wasn't. I think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. Me, I don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. Lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. Some people thought he had an arrogance about him, I suppose, from the way he carried himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. That was his natural walk. Some people passed remarks about Lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that.

Mr. JENNER. What was there about his mouth that you noticed particularly?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. It just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. That just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. Like that time he ran into this place on Magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. He said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought Lee was a little smart aleck or something, I guess, but I took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking I will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so I would do it. But I guess all people don't think alike about things like that. A lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, there are some records from Beauregard School indicating--either Beauregard or Easton, showing that his address was 809 French Street. Now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would tell me how that came about, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, it came about--they only had one house in the 700 block, from Canal Boulevard----

Mr. JENNER. No; I don't mean that. I mean, how did it come about that Lee gave your home address as his address?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. We had been in the 800 block, but they changed it to the 700 block.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that, Mrs. Murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that Lee registered at either Beauregard School or Warren Easton as living at your address, at 809 French Street, which was your address?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was brought about when he first came back from New York with his mother, and they stayed at my house for 2 weeks, and that was when they registered him at Beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. In fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to Beauregard School. It had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me, how did Lee act when he came in from New York with his mother and lived at your home for those 2 weeks? What was his conduct generally, as you recall it?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he didn't act any different than any other child, I don't think. He was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. He didn't talk much. He never really did talk unless you said something to him.

Mr. JENNER. The same old pattern, would you say?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. It's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. You run across that every day.

Mr. JENNER. I agree with you on that. Do you recall an occasion or a situation in which Lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the Civil Air Patrol?

Mrs. MURRET. I don't know anything about that other than my sister Marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at Beauregard, and that through him he had joined the Civil Air Patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all I know about it. They were living on Exchange Alley, or Exchange--whatever that is, at the time.

Mr. JENNER. Exchange Place?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's it, Exchange Place.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember your son John giving Lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee was getting ready to go on this job, and John was in the back getting dressed to go to work, I think, and he didn't think Lee looked presentable. John is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked Lee, he said, "Lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. You put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." He said "Come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to Lee to go after the job, and Lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "Fair Play for Cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on.

Mr. JENNER. He had the same shirt and tie on that your son John had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; the same white shirt and the tie. They belonged to John, and he had given them to Lee to go after a job. Now, John felt sorry for Lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. John was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "Come on, Lee, let's go for a ride, and I'll let you drive the car," and I think he sat next to Lee and let Lee steer the car, or something, but I don't know anything about that. I don't think Lee ever did know how to drive a car. Maybe he did, but as far as I know, he didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. I believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought Lee was left handed. What led you to say that?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, as a child, when he was a small child, I knew he ate with his left hand, and I always thought that he did things with his left hand. Now, whether he used both hands or not, I don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. In fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They eat with either hand, don't they?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they do. I have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. This was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee write left handed?

Mrs. MURRET. When?

Mr. JENNER. After he reached, say, high school age?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. You never noticed it one way or the other?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. When he was living with you during those 2 weeks, when they came back from New York, did you ever see him use his left hand?

Mrs. MURRET. I never noticed really.

Mr. JENNER. Your boys are all right handed, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. I remember you told me earlier today that Lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. It was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you listen to the debate over the radio between Lee and the Cuban boy?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he called.

Mr. JENNER. Who, Lee?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it.

Mr. JENNER. You heard some of it?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time about Lee's political views?

Mrs. MURRET. Not in my home.

Mr. JENNER. And not with you?

Mrs. MURRET. No; and I don't think with any other member of my family.

Mrs. JENNER. Did you ever observe Lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never paid too much attention to that. I know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life.

Mr. JENNER. Was your son John attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? Did your son talk to you about that?

Mrs. MURRET. No; he didn't say anything about that. I don't know what John had in mind. Anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back.

Mr. JENNER. Would it have been as long as a couple of hours?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not a couple of hours; just a spin around.

Mr. JENNER. Did John report that Lee could or could not drive? Did he say anything either way as to that?

Mrs. MURRET. You mean on that day?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. MURRET. Well, we always felt that Lee didn't know how to drive.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, he couldn't drive?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have your family right now, if you will bear with me. You have a daughter, Mrs. Emile, and her given name is Joyce, and her husband's name is O'Brien, and they live at 1615 Fairway, Beaumont, Tex., is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You have a son, Dr. Charles W. Murret, a dentist, who has an office at 1207 West Bernard, Chalmette, La.; you have a son Gene, and that's spelled E-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at 3959 Loyola Avenue, Mobile, Ala., is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, he has a designation of S.J. What is that?

Mrs. MURRET. Society of Jesus.

Mr. JENNER. And he's the boy who attended law school, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And a fine student?

Mrs. MURRET. He certainly was.

Mr. JENNER. And he is unmarried?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, you can't be married and be a Jesuit.

Mr. JENNER. And your son John lives at 6622 Louis XIV, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then your daughter Marilyn, she lives with you, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. She's unmarried?

Mrs. MURRET. Unmarried. She says you have to want to get married to get married.

Mr. JENNER. She doesn't want to get married?

Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She says that's not for her. Now, Charles didn't see Lee at all.

Mr. JENNER. Charles is your dentist son?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But your daughter Marilyn did, and John did, and you have told us about Gene and your daughter Joyce--they did, is that right?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And of course your husband?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in their apartment on Magazine Street, Mrs. Murret?

Mrs. MURRET. Just that morning when we went there.

Mr. JENNER. That's the morning that they arrived, Mrs. Paine and Marina--arrived from Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. MURRET. Right. We took them home that night, and I was there then.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever speak of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy or Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. He said one time that he thought Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. In fact, I think he said he liked him.

Mr. JENNER. Liked President Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What about Lee Oswald's habits? Was he a drinking man, for example?

Mrs. MURRET. I never knew of Lee to drink or smoke. In fact, when I read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, I was surprised, because I have never known of Lee to smoke. Now, Marina said he didn't want her to smoke. She said she had learned to smoke in Russia when other Americans had given her cigarettes, but that Lee didn't want her to smoke at all. We see nothing wrong in smoking, except that Lee just didn't want her to smoke. I see now where Dr. Ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. My boys don't smoke.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you know, did Lee ever live in a rooming house around here?

Mrs. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any communistic literature or Russian literature that you know of?

Mrs. MURRET. I didn't see any. All he showed me was pictures of Marina and the baby when he first came, and some of Marina's family, but that's about all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever hear Lee discuss anybody by name, like Jack Ruby, or Rubenstein?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. No one else ever discussed him in your presence?

Mrs. MURRET. No. Lee only spoke when he was spoken to.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and I know you are tired, that I haven't brought out, either because I don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the Commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. MURRET. No; I wish I could think of something else, but I don't think I can. I can only say this. Lee appeared to be very kind to Marina, and I thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister Marguerite, I could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, I guess, but I will say that I have never found her to tell an untruth. She's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and I'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. Now, whether it was or not is something else, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the morality of Lee Oswald during his lifetime?

Mrs. MURRET. His morality, as far as I know, was very good. That's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, I just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way.

Mr. JENNER. During the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that I wondered about at the time, but there were times when I think he was just like any other person. It was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. He just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like I say, he was kind to Marina. Of course now, I don't know what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house.

Mr. JENNER. But you had no impression of him as being a violent person?

Mrs. MURRET. No; not at all.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Mrs. Murret. I very much appreciate your help. This has been a long and a hard day, and I know that you are tired. There is just one other thing now, Mrs. Murret. You have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. If you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the U.S. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. Do you have any preference, one way or the other?

Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think so. I will just waive it.

Mr. JENNER. You want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition then?

Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right; thank you, Mrs. Murret.

TESTIMONY OF MARILYN DOROTHEA MURRET

The testimony of Marilyn Dorothea Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Marilyn Dorothea Murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her God, testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress number 137.

I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you last week and told you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order to which I have just referred, as well as the copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are technically entitled to 3-days' notice of this hearing under the Commission's rules. As I understand it, the Secret Service contacted you on Friday of last week. This may not actually be 3-days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. I presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and to the subsequent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in New Orleans during the spring and summer of 1963.

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record?

Miss MURRET. Marilyn Dorothea Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Miss MURRET. 757 French.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Miss Murret?

Miss MURRET. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all of your life here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Well, except for the time I traveled and I lived 2 years in St. Louis.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background?

Miss MURRET. Well, from elementary on?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Miss MURRET. I went to John Dibert Elementary School, and John McDonogh High School.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those are both located here in the city of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir; and Loyola University, and L.S.U. at Baton Rouge, and Tulane, and a summer at Duke, and University of California, the Sorbonne, and University of Madrid, and St. Louis University----

Mr. LIEBELER. What degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned?

Miss MURRET. I just have a B.A., and the others were educational courses--instead of going to one school, I just went to various ones.

Mr. LIEBELER. What school gave you your B.A.?

Miss MURRET. Tulane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tulane University?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you are a teacher. Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently teaching?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Miss MURRET. Fortier?

Mr. LIEBELER. Where is that?

Miss MURRET. Fortier.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you taught at the Junior University of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes; unfortunately.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did teach there?

Miss MURRET. September through December, but he didn't pay us--he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. But he recently paid me for the November check, and he still owes me for December.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the person who is running the Junior University of New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. Yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. He had two, one on this side, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. Two so-called universities?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir. But the one on it St. Charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you taught at the one----

Miss MURRET. Across the river. We didn't get paid so we----

Mr. LIEBELER. If I understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at Fortier?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who are your parents?

Miss MURRET. Mr. and Mrs. Charles Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your father is also known as Dutz Murret?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your father's occupation?

Miss MURRET. Well, steamship clerk--I don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the Mississippi Shipping, or how they operate, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know the name of the company for which he works?

Miss MURRET. I don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. I just don't know how that works.

Mr. LIEBELER. And your mother's name is----

Miss MURRET. Lillian Murret, maiden name Claverie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother is the sister of Marguerite Claverie, is she not----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is the mother of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with your mother's family? Does she have other brothers and sisters?

Miss MURRET. They are all--most of them are dead. Her brothers all died when they were quite young, I believe during World War I, and when her mother died, she was about 33 years old. Her father died when I was very young, and I don't remember him at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's father died when you were a young girl?

Miss MURRET. That is right, and her mother died when she was 33.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean when----

Miss MURRET. When her mother was 33.

Mr. LIEBELER. When her mother was 33?

Miss MURRET. Yes; I think the eldest child is--I just don't have any idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters did your mother have?

Miss MURRET. Three sisters, I think, and two brothers.

Mr. LIEBELER. And one of these sisters would have been Mrs. Oswald; is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your mother's three sisters and the two----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. All of these three sisters, except for Mrs. Oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. One other sister is still living, and the rest are all dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the other sister's name?

Miss MURRET. Mancy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that her last name?

Miss MURRET. That is her first name, and I can hardly remember the last name.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know her last name?

Miss MURRET. I do, but I can't remember it. It will come to me in a moment. She lives in Frankfort. She goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in----

Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee she goes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does she have?

Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?

Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the other one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living?

Miss MURRET. Yes; two.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name?

Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls?

Miss MURRET. Two boys.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now?

Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he lives.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one?

Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four children?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls?

Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living?

Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?

Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they live?

Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then Jackie.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know, either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same State, and one in the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have?

Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names?

Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. She is older?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what?

Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name?

Miss MURRET. O'Brien.

Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what?

Miss MURRET. One was John.

Mr. LIEBELER. John?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the other?

Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know?

Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919, during World War I.

Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them?

Miss MURRET. No; there were none.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has three sons?

Miss MURRET. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite Oswald over the years?

Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days or so----

Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when?

Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.

Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. I don't really remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?

Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him occasionally.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I don't think he was over very much.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember?

Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.

Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell us?

Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?