Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. CLARK. I talked with George De Mohrenschildt about Oswald. I don't think I talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. Well, I saw Oswald this one time and, of course, we would see George De Mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and I received a letter from George every once in awhile from Haiti so I know him quite well.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you received letters from Mr. De Mohrenschildt after the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he said anything in these letters about the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us generally what he said?

Mr. CLARK. Well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe Oswald did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had written to Mrs. Kennedy's mother because apparently George knew Mrs. Auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known Mrs. Kennedy when she was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow about this and that he felt that Oswald was not the one that did it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way?

Mr. CLARK. No; he did not and then I received another letter from him and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that Oswald had done it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you still have copies of those letters?

Mr. CLARK. I know I got at least one of them. I may have both of them. I know I got the last one.

Mr. LIEBELER. I would like you, if you would, you don't have them with you, of course?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you would look through your records when you go back to Fort Worth and if you do have any of those letters, I would appreciate if you would send them or copies to Mr. Sanders here and I will be back in Dallas next week and I would like to read the letters and may want to make them part of this record.

Mr. CLARK. Sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did De Mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters anything to the effect he thought that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. CLARK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never gave you any specific reasons why he did not think Oswald was the man who did it?

Mr. CLARK. No; George would be the type person that he is, he would not believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. He is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. He walked through Mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, actually, he should have lived 300 or 400 years ago and been an explorer or pirate or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how close his association with Oswald was?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I understand one time he threatened to beat Oswald to a pulp if he didn't leave Marina alone, quit beating her up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that?

Mr. CLARK. I forgot; one of the Russian group and I think George told me that.

Mr. LIEBELER. George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given Oswald a real lashing about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea when that was?

Mr. CLARK. It's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of January, sometime in the spring of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you fix that date in your mind?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I know that the only time that we saw Oswald and Marina was in October of 1962, before she left for Dallas and I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt had come in contact with Oswald and Marina much before that time. I know that when they moved to Dallas, the Oswalds, George De Mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take Oswald and Marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and I know that during the Christmas holidays of 1962 they had a big party, the Russian group had a party at the Ford's house around the 26th or 27th of December. We were invited but we were skiing and didn't go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.

(Off record discussion.)

Mr. CLARK. So, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party at the Fords. I have heard that George De Mohrenschildt is the one that took the Oswalds to the Ford party and that he saw them off and on after that and that during that period of time we would hear in Fort Worth that Oswald had beat Marina up and that she had to run off, and quite a bit of physical violence, and that George finally got hold of Oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid another hand on her.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that was sometime after the Ford party?

Mr. CLARK. I feel pretty sure it was. I have nothing to tie it to but I think it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. How often did you see De Mohrenschildt during the period January 1, 1963, to the time he left for Haiti?

Mr. CLARK. I do not recall exactly when he left for Haiti.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think it was in May sometime.

Mr. CLARK. I know one time during that period I think George went to Pennsylvania or New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's right, I believe.

Mr. CLARK. I would say we would see them at least once every 2 or 3 weeks maybe. He might drop over to the office in Fort Worth on the way through. I think he did that a couple times and we would either see him at his apartment or he would come to our house. We saw him once a month or maybe more.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in April 1963, there was an attempt made on the life of General Walker?

Mr. CLARK. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see De Mohrenschildt after that?

Mr. CLARK. I am sure I did. If he left in May I feel sure I saw him shortly before he left for Haiti.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall discussing the attempt on General Walker with De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. CLARK. No; there would be no reason. We seldom discussed or talked politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no recollection that he mentioned Oswald in connection with the Walker attempt at that time?

Mr. CLARK. At that time it was the furthest thing because I don't think that George De Mohrenschildt and I even mentioned Oswald in any of our conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just someone made a comment about Marina getting beat up about the only comment we had.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any question about De Mohrenschildt's loyalty to the United States?

Mr. CLARK. None; I think he talks a lot and I think he is a character but I don't think he is disloyal in any respect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion that the FBI was responsible for the assassination and that Oswald was just a "patsy" in the thing?

Mr. CLARK. Knowing George, he's liable to say anything whether he really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes without even thinking; most of the time he does that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion of Oswald during the time that you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to whether he was mentally unstable or not?

Mr. CLARK. It didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. I just thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or anyone. He just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in the world was out of step but himself.

Mr. LIEBELER. And this is about the only opinion you formed of him?

Mr. CLARK. Well, I just thought--I didn't think--well, I just felt that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was a completely shiftless individual.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CLARK. Never heard of him until all this happened.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know of any connection between Oswald and Ruby?

Mr. CLARK. I wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know of any connection between the two?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. I was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the first place and the last we had heard, he was in New Orleans or some place like that. He had left Dallas. We didn't even know he returned to Dallas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think based on your knowledge of Oswald that he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have committed?

Mr. CLARK. Definitely; I think he would have done this to President Kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have the feeling that his motivation was simply to call attention to himself?

Mr. CLARK. I do. I think it was primarily to go down in history because he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you now told us everything that you recall about Oswald and the conversations that you had with him? I don't have any more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you think the Commission should know or anything you want to add to what you said, go right ahead.

Mr. CLARK. It is extremely difficult to remember because there has been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with 1- or 2-hour conversations over 2 years ago to remember what was discussed and to separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. So, it is extremely difficult to say. I think I covered everything. At the time when I talked with him I was very interested in learning what it was like in Russia and I asked many questions of Oswald primarily concerned with what life was like in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember in any greater detail than you already testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms?

Mr. CLARK. The question of firearms did not come up. He just indicated he and Marina would go out in the fields and walk around. I don't recall whether he said he went hunting. I am not a hunter; it doesn't interest me a bit. If he said he was hunting it probably would not have registered on me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in firearms to you at that time?

Mr. CLARK. Not at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never indicated that to you at any time?

Mr. CLARK. No; not at any time; no, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations with any members of the Russian community or heard of any conversations amongst them concerning the question of whether or not Oswald might have been a Russian agent?

Mr. CLARK. Most of the Russian group were concerned about Oswald and Marina. It seemed that the older of the Russian group, that is, the ones that had lived in the States the longest period of time and couldn't be considered as "DP's" were less concerned about it than those recent arrivals from Soviet blocs; the ones that were "DP's" just couldn't understand how the Oswalds got out of Russia so easily. The older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to the Russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to be concerned about it because they felt the American government was keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. They would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as much as the ones that got out recently.

Mr. LIEBELER. Most of the opinions of the latter group were based primarily on the difficulties, I suppose, that they themselves had in getting out of Russia, is that correct?

Mr. CLARK. Yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt probably Oswald and Marina got out too easily.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any particular people, their names, as to this "DP" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because of Oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of Russia?

Mr. CLARK. Lydia Dymitruk and Alex Kleinlerer, the Mellers, Anna and Teofil Meller. I think you talked with them. I can't think. I know there's several others of the younger group that came over.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?

Mr. CLARK. Thomas Ray--her name is Anna Ray, yes; I met them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't; I am not sure of the first one; the one I know is the wife is of Russian origin; her name is Anna.

Mr. LIEBELER. That's Mrs. Frank Ray.

Mr. CLARK. That's the one I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know Mr. or Mrs. Thomas Ray; they live in Blossom, Tex.

Mr. CLARK. No; I don't. I might if I were to see them but I don't recall their name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you yourself have any reason to think that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?

Mr. CLARK. I didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did consider the question prior to the assassination?

Mr. CLARK. I considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he got back here and after talking with him, I felt I didn't think that they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by the FBI?

Mr. CLARK. I did not discuss it with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never mentioned it?

Mr. CLARK. He never mentioned it. I did not inquire of him. I was keeping it strictly what life was in Russia. I was trying to stay off political issues or anything about the United States.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE A. BOUHE

The testimony of George A. Bouhe was taken at 2 p.m., on March 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Bouhe, before we start I want to tell you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

I think Mr. Rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on Oswald's motive.

I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the Rules of the Commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony.

Now the Secret Service, as I understand, called you on Friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. You are entitled to 3 days' written notice, and I suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on Friday, but I presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time?

Mr. BOUHE. I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you.

Mr. BOUHE. May I ask this? Is this my appearance before the Commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the Commission?

Mr. LIEBELER. No. This is in effect your appearance before the Commission. A transcript of our report will be forwarded to the Commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to Washington.

Mr. Bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God, in the testimony you are about to give?

Mr. BOUHE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. George A. Bouhe.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. BOUHE. 4740 Homer Street, Dallas 4, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you presently employed?

Mr. BOUHE. I am a semiretired accountant. I do not have a regular job since about early 1963, but I keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom I was doing that in the last 10 or more years, in addition to my regular job, which I quit on my own volition after about 10 years, on or about April 30, of last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. For whom were you employed up to that time?

Mr. BOUHE. For 9-1/2 years I was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent Dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, Lewis W. MacNaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of DeGolyer & MacNaughton, but I was MacNaughton's personal employee.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born, Mr. Bouhe?

Mr. BOUHE. I was born in what was then St. Petersburg, now Leningrad, Russia, on February 11 or 24, 1904, and the difference in dates is because we had the Julian and Gregorian calendar, and I have a baptismal certificate showing February 11.

Mr. LIEBELER. Under the old Russian calendar?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be February 24 under the present day calendar?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us when and how it came that you came to the United States.

Mr. BOUHE. During the years 1920 through 1923 back in Petrograd, Russia, while I was finishing my high school there, which was called the Gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, I was working for the American Relief Commission as an office boy.

It was an association to which the American Congress allocated, I think, $100 million for the relief of the starving population of Russia.

The Hon. Herbert Hoover was Chairman of that Commission. He sent American executives to Russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already Petrograd, and I, speaking English, was an office boy.

When we finished that thing, I got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to George Alexandrovich Bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the American Relief Commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in Russia.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you worked for the American Relief Commission, did that lead to your coming to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. That is correct. My association with some of the supervisors which were American executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased Prof. Frank Golder of Stanford University, Gen. William Haskell, who later commanded the National Guard; one of my supervisors said, "Why don't you come to America?" So after the office closed sometime in August 1923, more or less, I applied for a passport to leave Russia but was refused. Then I went across the little river separating Soviet Russia from Finland in the middle of September at night, and it was cold, and got out.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went into Finland and came to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Through Germany and then to the United States in April 1924.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually become an American citizen?

Mr. BOUHE. I became an American citizen on or about June 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue your education when you came to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Not regularly and not formally. I was working for 13 years for what is now the Chase Manhattan Bank, but it had previous mergers. I attended the American Institute of Banking, and that is all I did there, which is not much.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you where you learned English, Mr. Bouhe.

Mr. BOUHE. At home. At the age of 5 to age of 7, I had a French governess. At the age of 7 to 9, I had a German governess. At the age of 10 to maybe 11, I had an English governess.

Mr. LIEBELER. You got your first acquaintance with English through the English governess, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your formal education in the Soviet Union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us Latin and Greek.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first come to Dallas?

(Mr. Jenner entered the room.)

Mr. LIEBELER (continued). Mr. Bouhe, this is Mr. Jenner.

Mr. BOUHE. On July 4, 1939.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived in Dallas since that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It's been indicated to me, Mr. Bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called Russian group here in Dallas and the Fort Worth area, and I would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? Let's leave it that way. And particularly, Mr. Bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a Russian church here in Dallas? Would you tell us about that?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which I appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but I would say that if I am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when I came in 1939, there were absolutely only three Russian-speaking people in Dallas and they were all married people, married to Americans, and so on.

So I did not, so-to-speak, associate with any Russians that might have come or gone through Dallas from 1939 to about 1950.

In 1950, approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to Dallas from Europe. Among these were probably 30, 40, 50 people, native of what I would say of various parts of the former Russian Empire.

By that I mean to say that they were not all Russian. They might have been Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Caucasians, Georgians, Armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language.

It was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed God, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in Germany--they wanted to get to America, and if 1 out of 50 made a 10-cent effort to learn the English language, I did not find him.

So the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as I earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland.

Mr. LIEBELER. You gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct. Perhaps not all of the people, because I could not bring a Mohammedan into the Greek Orthodox Church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the Russian or Slovenian language was welcome.

And as you said, I organized--well, I did the organization work, really.

The godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, Paul M. Raigorodsky.

Mr. LIEBELER. These people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from Europe and who had difficulty with the English language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient?

Mr. BOUHE. I might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to Crozier Tech to learn English, because I have the great reliance on that.

Some of them were old or very elderly people. "Why do I have to learn English? All I want to do is get a job."

Well, maybe so, but I think we should look into the English language, too. And, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the Crozier Tech, but I was there frequently, I would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time did you meet a man by the name of George De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. That lady's maiden name was Sharples?

Mr. BOUHE. That's right; from the main line in Philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also meet a gentleman by the name of Ilya A. Mamantov?

Mr. BOUHE. I did meet him. I cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us the circumstances surrounding that event.

Mr. BOUHE. I met Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on Saturday, August 25, 1962.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. BOUHE. At the home on Dorothy Lane in Fort Worth, Tex., of Mr. and Mrs. Peter P. Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else was there at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. and Mrs. Gregory, Lee Oswald, his wife and child, son of Mr. Gregory who was at that time a student at the University of Oklahoma in Norman, and Mrs. Anna Meller of Dallas, Tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so I escorted her with her husband's permission.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a meeting for dinner, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. It was that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who invited you to the dinner, Mr. Gregory?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you how he came to meet Lee Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has he told you, in effect, that Oswald came to him at the Fort Worth Public Library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the Russian language?

Mr. BOUHE. Mr. Gregory did tell me, and maybe I am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the Fort Worth Public Library where, if my information is correct, Mr. Gregory teaches, I think, a free class of the Russian language.

Mr. Gregory is a native of Siberia, and I think a graduate of Leland Stanford, an educated man who could teach the Russian language, and he told me that one day Lee Harvey Oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks.

Then, if I am not mistaken, Lee Harvey Oswald came to Mr. Gregory's office in the Continental Life Building. He came to his office, and if I understood correctly, Mr. Gregory gave Lee Harvey Oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the Russian language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Gregory tell you that Lee Oswald asked him, Mr. Gregory, to help him, Oswald, write a book on his experiences in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. That I do not recall having heard from Mr. Gregory.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear it from anybody else?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. No other time? Did you subsequently hear it after the assassination?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in Fort Worth.

Mrs. Bailey, I think her name is, to whom Oswald came with a $10 bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the book.

Mr. LIEBELER. So the only thing you know about Mr. Gregory's supposed help with Oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? About the fact that Gregory was supposed to help Oswald with his book?

Mr. BOUHE. If he told me before, I swear I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now at the dinner at Gregory's, did you converse with Lee Oswald and his wife, Marina?

Mr. BOUHE. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. They were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice I used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since I was born in St. Petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, Marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in St. Petersburg.

This created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for 40 some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells.

Mr. LIEBELER. You discussed those questions with Marina Oswald at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. Right. And also I had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in Moscow and purchased by me through V. Kamkin Book Store, Washington, D.C., the album being called the "Plans of St. Petersburg" from the creation by Peter The Great in 1710 to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the Czarist Regime in 1914, which is really what I was interested in.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you discussed those maps?

Mr. BOUHE. I took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and I asked Marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you that she subsequently left Leningrad and moved to Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? Did you learn from Marina why she moved from Leningrad, from St. Petersburg to Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. To the best of my knowledge, I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss at that time Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union?

Let me ask you this, Mr. Bouhe. Did you discuss--let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of Oswald, when I ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with Oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him.

Let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with Oswald the reasons for him going to the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not at that meeting.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently discuss with him?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not discuss it because I know I will antagonize him, and I could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if I may so call him, a rebel against society.

Meaning, even if it is good, "I don't like it." That conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after I first met him, because I got dizzy following his movements. Either he goes into the Marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. That is no good. He goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. He doesn't like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. BOUHE. Not about a football team, but in the Marines he said he didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you learn about the football?

Mr. BOUHE. In the press after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing Oswald.

Let me ask you specifically if Oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. Only I could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly I didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. I don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory.

But what I was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the Soviet Union.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much he was paid for his work?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, he certainly did tell me, and I think he said 90 rubles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. That was all he said, and he even went further when I asked him, "Well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?"

Well, he says, "The rent was free." So he didn't pay for the rent.

I said, "What did you get as rent?"

"Well, it was an old factory building."

I don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the place where he lived?

Mr. BOUHE. That's correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary Russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters?

Mr. BOUHE. That I did not ask him. But I wanted to go through 90 rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that I remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers.

Mr. LIEBELER. Pretty sad pair of boots?

Mr. BOUHE. Pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were famous for Russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. Well, from a distance, it looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "They are no good."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how much they cost?

Mr. BOUHE. If I am not mistaken, 19 rubles, but I would not swear to that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire 90 rubles as to what he spent it on?

Mr. BOUHE. That very same evening I noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions.

Mr. LIEBELER. This conversation all took place at the home of Peter Gregory?

Mr. BOUHE. In the home of Mr. Gregory. I asked him, "Now 90 rubles you got. Rent is free. Boots are 19 rubles--and I can't imagine what it is in Minsk when it rains--what about the food?"

And that figure I remember distinctly.

In the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, 45 rubles a month to eat. So 19 and 45, and just to mention a couple of items, I didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him whether the 90 rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not ask that question; no.

Mr. LIEBELER. But it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, it would so appear, but I could not ask him. I said, "90 minus 45, minus 19, what is left?"

No answer.

But I could not press him because it was a social gathering and I couldn't cross-examine.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct?

Mr. BOUHE. Not his budget. I did discuss the cost of other items. For instance, he had a portable radio.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see that?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did. Most awful production. He also had a Gramophone and records.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask him how much the radio cost?

Mr. BOUHE. If I did, I don't remember. I probably did, but I honestly don't remember. But it was a small one. I had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction.

But anyway, I also saw a pair of shoes of Marina's which she bought there, and I would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, I don't know. And what she was earning, I do not know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you discuss with Oswald his membership in a hunting club in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. But I now remember that when I asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"Well, the boys and I go and hunt duck."

And he said, "ducklings". The reason why I remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in Russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys".

Mr. LIEBELER. He used the Russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. He spoke in Russian and did not try to get the Russian word exactly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you how many times he went hunting?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he owned a gun?

Mr. BOUHE. There?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; in the Soviet Union.

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips?

Mr. BOUHE. No; never asked. Was never told.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember?

Mr. BOUHE. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting?

Mr. BOUHE. I thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time I had no reason to suspect his lying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. That is what he said.

Mr. LIEBELER. That didn't surprise you at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No; that is one of the occupations.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the Soviet Government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the Soviet Government?

Mr. BOUHE. I have never asked him. He never volunteered it. And much as I'd like to assist you further, I swear again I never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back from Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. He did say once, and I hate to talk about a dead man, what I thought shedding a crocodile tear, "It would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the United States."

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the United States?

Mr. BOUHE. Substantially. I cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the Russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that Marina was hell-bent to go out of the Soviet Union and into America.

And I think one of the ladies said "Why," and I remember through third hand a report reached me, "I always wanted to have a room of my own."

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who told you that?

Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that Marina married Oswald just to get out of the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. I cannot say that that was the only reason.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was one of the reasons?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mr. BOUHE. She was saying Marina wanted to come to America.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you gathered the impression that that was one of the reasons why Marina married Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. Only after.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, did you gain an impression as to whether Marina wanted to marry Oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she married Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. That is my impression. My impression. But I wasn't there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember anyone telling you that that was one of the reasons? That is to say, neither Marina or Oswald told you?

Mr. BOUHE. Certainly not Oswald. But just a minute, much as I'd like to say, I do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but Marina liked to look at magazines, she said, and Cadillacs and iceboxes and this and that, and from what I understood her talk, she was just itching to get in on that. Now that is my impression, and God strike me if I say something wrong about her, but that is my impression.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald tell you that he traveled inside the Soviet Union while he was there?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall any mention or conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you that he had gone to Moscow on two or three different occasions from Minsk?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, I don't know what the occasions were or the number of them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the American Embassy in Moscow at some period of time to return.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald mention that he had received any training while he was in the Soviet Union? That he had gone to school or received any special train from the Soviet Government of any kind?

Mr. BOUHE. I do not recall anything, any statement by him on that subject.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to Oswald in the Russian language from time to time?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to his command of that language?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that impression?

Mr. BOUHE. A very strange assortment of words. Grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know when you knew Oswald how long he had been in the Soviet Union, approximately?

Mr. BOUHE. That I knew from a clipping which I have at home, from the Fort Worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of Oswald before my eyes sometime in June 1962. And that story said the Fort Worth boy returns after so many years, and so on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald's command of the Russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say very good.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in Russia?

Mr. BOUHE. Sir, for everyday conversations, yes. But I think that if I would have asked him to write, I would think he would have difficulty.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you get the impression that he received any special training in the Russian language while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. BOUHE. Never heard of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not get that impression?

Mr. BOUHE. I did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good old days in St. Petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke French--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some from trips to Paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn the language, so I would say from my estimate of the caliber of his language is that he picked it up by ear from Marina, other girls, or from factory workers.

Mr. LIEBELER. You also conversed with Marina in Russian, did you not?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, yes; she is very good, I must say, to my great amazement.

Mr. LIEBELER. Much better than Oswald? Was Marina's command of the Russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her education?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good command of the language?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, I did not ask her in the form of a question. I complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met here who went through wars and mixtures and Germany and French speak a very, very broken unpolished Russian, which I tried to perfect.

And I complimented her on that. You are speaking in amazingly grammatical--maybe I said, I don't know--correct language.

And she said, "My grandmother who raised me--I don't know what period--she was an educated woman. She went to--and she gave me a school for noble girls." Something like, I don't know--are you a Dallas man--perhaps Bryn Mawr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Some prominent school?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes. The grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the name, which is a top school. And when you come out of that school as a young girl, you are polished--Smolny Institute for Noble Girls.

And also, Marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced her a little bit on the study of religion. And whether she believes or does not, I do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. What is in her soul, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression as to the girl's character of Marina Oswald throughout the time that you knew her?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you think of her general character? Tell us about that.

Let me ask you to confine your answer first, Mr. Bouhe, to the judgments about Marina that you had formed prior to the time of the assassination, and then I will ask you if you changed those judgments or amplified them after the event of the assassination.

But first of all, tell us your general impression of Marina Oswald as you thought of her prior to November 22, 1963.

Mr. BOUHE. All right, and essentially what I will say is prior to about December 28, 1962, because I have not met any of them since.

It seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as I understood without investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, I don't know who they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from 1941, 1942, and 1943, when Leningrad was surrounded by Germans and there was a great deal of privation, hunger, and, I heard, even cannibalism.

Maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have to do whatever she could to get out.

Maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, I would say, is of the old school, but I don't know.

And I think she must have been looking for that opportunity which presented itself in Minsk.

So I think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal was or is, I cannot guess even now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that you thought Marina was a product of the Soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed from her?

Mr. BOUHE. I certainly don't remember if I said that, those specific words, but that is what I believe. If you are educated by the Soviet regime, in their schools, I think you don't think anything of your own, which is substantially what I said, isn't it, or is it not?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; she had had all initiative removed from her.

Mr. BOUHE. Except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your opinion of Marina Oswald upon reflection after the assassination occurred?

Mr. BOUHE. I could only add that I probably think her a person of exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events without going berserk. She has a character. Now whether it is directed in the right thing or not, I don't know. I want to say, I think she is good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, I do not volunteer as an expert.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the period in October and November of 1962, when, as I recall it, Marina and Lee Oswald were having a certain amount of marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained Marina's confidence about those matters?

Mr. BOUHE. Not I.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. No; she talked to other people who told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were these other women?

Mr. BOUHE. Well, certainly to Anna Meller.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Ford?

Mr. BOUHE. Mrs. Ford, undoubtedly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent?

Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls.

Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna Meller and Anna Ray.

Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that?

Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house.

Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me."

Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Marina tell you the details of her argument with Oswald?

Mr. BOUHE. No; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time?

Mr. BOUHE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was that? Did she appear bruised at Mr. Gregory's party?

Mr. BOUHE. Oh, no; that was when she ran away from Oswald, probably in the middle of November, already in Oak Cliff here in Dallas. She called at 11 o'clock at night Mrs. Anna Meller from a gasoline station and said, "He is beating me up and here I am with the baby and no diaper and no nothing, and so on, what can I do?"

Well, if you talk to Mrs. Anna Meller, you will see that she is a plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say but "come over."

Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Meller told Marina to come over to her house?

Mr. BOUHE. Right. That was 11 o'clock at night.

Mr. LIEBELER. Marina went to Mrs. Meller's and stayed there about a week?

Mr. BOUHE. About a week.

Mr. LIEBELER. And subsequently she went to Mrs. Ford's house?

Mr. BOUHE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you took her there to Mrs. Ford?