Chapter XIV: Part 14

Miss MURRET. Well, as I am saying, at first, I had no idea, when he first came out, but then after I met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, I am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her--I don't know. You don't know in anybody else's house, I guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. He was very devoted to Marina. He seemed to love his child very much. And as I say, I am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. And I mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. And, I don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when I really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably I--and he seemed to--I don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. In fact, they were a real cute couple.

Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here?

Miss MURRET. Only what I read.

Mr. LIEBELER. Only what you read in the paper after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When Marina mentioned to you that Lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on Marina's part over that?

Miss MURRET. No; not at all. It was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. I mean you can't--I couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but I mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. She also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. You know, "Don't, Marina, I won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. And, I mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or----

Miss MURRET. She didn't like it.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't like the apartment?

Miss MURRET. She said she, "No like. No like."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you understand----

Miss MURRET. Well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and Lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. In fact, when they went, she didn't like it. She said that she liked low ceilings.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished?

Miss MURRET. My mother and I had gone there, and I thought it was very nice for the money, actually.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how much he was paying for it?

Miss MURRET. Sixty-five.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of neighborhood was it in?

Miss MURRET. On Magazine--I don't know about Magazine, but I don't think Magazine is too good. But the apartment was all newly furnished. They had a new icebox, I believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned before that you had discussed religion with Lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all?

Miss MURRET. He never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never.

Mr. LIEBELER. Never said anything about President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Miss MURRET. No; but I can't remember whether it was--if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about Kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else.

Mr. LIEBELER. What program are you referring to?

Miss MURRET. That might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the Fair Play for Cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was a television program?

Miss MURRET. Yes; television.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that you saw it after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about Kennedy on that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And other than that you never heard him speak of President Kennedy?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about Civil Rights, and particularly the Negro?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some Negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing?

Miss MURRET. I don't think he knew any better. He didn't know the cars were segregated, I don't think. I don't know. I just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly--I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned you were not in New Orleans during July and August of 1963, and where were you?

Miss MURRET. I went to Mexico and all through Central America and Panama.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you travel by yourself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you travel?

Miss MURRET. By bus and station wagon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your own station wagon?

Miss MURRET. No; public transportation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that Oswald went to Mexico in September?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to Mexico or he was going to Mexico, or had gone to Mexico, or was even thinking about going to Mexico?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet anybody on this trip to Mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, Lee Oswald, either at that time or subsequently?

Miss MURRET. On this trip, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the nature of the trip? Was it just basically a tourist operation?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Basically a tourist operation, you say?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you returned from Mexico to New Orleans, you learned, did you not, that Oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you learn that?

Miss MURRET. My family.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your family told you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did they tell you?

Miss MURRET. Well, just, in other words, he had the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. And my sister had to go and get him out. And, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. So, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and I think she said that Lee came up to see her--but I don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets.

So he called up and he told Joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get him out. She didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. So she said, "Call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. Well, I don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. So, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "Before I get him out of there, I want you to tell me what he is in there for." So the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "I've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. And she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. And I don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was the friend? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. Of course, he didn't know--that was Emile Bruneau, who is a very prominent man. He didn't know Lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. He is very active in the city, I mean, and this was just a personal favor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with Lee about this episode when you saw him on Labor Day?

Miss MURRET. I didn't ask ask him anything else.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee drive an automobile?

Miss MURRET. As far as I know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. But he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. And whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you know, did your brother ever let Lee take his car and go by himself.

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was your brother John?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you how well Oswald did?

Miss MURRET. Well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. But I doubt, and I don't think there was any traffic--I think it was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see Mrs. Paine again when she came to pick up Marina and take her back to Texas?

Miss MURRET. I only saw her once, and that was for about 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in May 1963?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Lee had lost his job with the Reily Coffee Co. sometime during the summer?

Miss MURRET. I guess he did--I don't know if that was after I came back or before, when he lost it. I don't know when he lost it. When did he lose it?

Mr. LIEBELER. He lost it in July, sometime, while you were gone.

Miss MURRET. Well, 2 weeks at my sister's about July 1, and from there, 13 days, because the 14th is my birthday, I left.

Mr. LIEBELER. You learned that he had lost it when you got back to New Orleans? When you got back to New Orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he looking around for another job? Do you know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know. I only saw them once after that, and that was Labor Day. I didn't ask him anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in Japan?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you out of the United States, and where did you go, and what did you do?

Miss MURRET. Three and a half years, and I started out on my way and went to Hong Kong, the Philippines, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, which was not a part of Malaysia at the time, Malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom--I went all through, Beirut, the Holy Land, Egypt, Cyprus, and all through Europe and back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you work during the time you were gone on this trip?

Miss MURRET. I worked in Australia and New Zealand and Japan.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a teacher?

Miss MURRET. As a teacher; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach in Australian schools or----

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places?

Miss MURRET. Well, it depends what your field is. I was teaching science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is 2 years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a science teacher?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you when you heard about the assassination?

Miss MURRET. At Juno.

Mr. LIEBELER. In school?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you hear that Lee had been arrested in connection with it?

Miss MURRET. After I came home one evening, because when I heard it, I was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. So they all had their radios on, and I ran over back to the class, and I listened to it. And I remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, 30 years old, and I didn't even hear at that time anything of having Lee at all, until I got back home. I think that was because I had left school about 3:30, or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time I don't think they had had something about Lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you heard that Lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Slightly!

Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, you were very surprised?

Miss MURRET. Of course.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you believe that he could have done it?

Miss MURRET. No, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have been thinking about it, I am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that Oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you come up with anything?

Miss MURRET. Well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and I don't really know why, but I don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of Kennedy and all that Kennedy stood for. I don't think it would have been that. I don't know what he would gain by killing the President when somebody else could take over the Government just as effectively--I mean with our governmental system. So, if he did it, it would--I don't know, unless it was to discredit America in the eyes of the world.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had?

Miss MURRET. No. You mean envy, or something, or desire to----

Mr. LIEBELER. For self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself?

Miss MURRET. No; and most people have that opinion. I don't think so.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never struck you as being that way?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being?

Miss MURRET. He struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know?

Miss MURRET. No; I don't know if it was a mechanical one or----

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be satisfied with his job?

Miss MURRET. He said it was all right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not?

Miss MURRET. He didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. I mean once, when I asked him several things about Russia, he said nothing other than what I told you, in very general terms. I asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. Most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. But he didn't strike me as being that way. I think he really thought he was somebody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he strike you as being a person of integrity?

Miss MURRET. Perfectly content--I mean he thought he was extremely intelligent.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was?

Miss MURRET. I thought that he was very articulate, but I mean I never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you form the impression that he was very articulate? You had the impression that he didn't talk very much?

Miss MURRET. No; but I mean his accent was very good. I mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. If he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. You could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all?

Miss MURRET. Well, I regarded him because he was my cousin, I guess. I mean I wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if I could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. I mean he didn't have too easy a life. I liked Lee. He didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that Lee would be liked by most people?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Why not?

Miss MURRET. Because he wasn't friendly. He would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, that is the thing I am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and I wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. We all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. According to some of the information we have Lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think Lee would be liked by people generally. I wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why.

Miss MURRET. Well, because of his manner--I think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. And his entire presentation, I mean his walk--he was very erect--he minded his own business, and I don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). Anyway, just like the way in the Army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. Lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but I think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as I said, I never really discussed anything with him. My theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. And I don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, I guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you thought that was very much of a problem?

Miss MURRET. Right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. I mean, like I am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on Exchange Alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. But he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. I guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. And I guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. I mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, I don't know, but, anyway, he read everything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on Marxism or communism?

Miss MURRET. I don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of Lee Oswald, do you think Lee Oswald actually did kill the President?

Miss MURRET. All the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. I never thought he would be--I never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as I am saying, somebody else was with him. But then, I don't think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this impression that you have of Lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street?

Miss MURRET. Well, then, after that, I said, this kid--well, I just thought he was probably harmless, and just then I said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over Canal Street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. So, I mean, that type, I probably thought he was harmless. And he was just shooting his mouth off. I mean, he didn't deny anything----

Mr. LIEBELER. And that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you?

Miss MURRET. I don't understand what you mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said the fellow was pretty quiet?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he stayed pretty much to himself?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. He must have been interviewed by WDSU shortly thereafter; however----

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know?

Miss MURRET. I don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. I mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, and I handle a lot of them like that." And then after I saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a Marxist.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? And did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets?

Miss MURRET. Yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. But I mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met Marina. But then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by Russia and then turned down by Fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know----

Mr. LIEBELER. This is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. I beg your pardon?

Mr. LIEBELER. This is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination?

Miss MURRET. Well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. But then, on the other hand, and I know now that I am looking back on all this, and I don't think that Khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of Russia, you know. I don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to Russia?

Miss MURRET. Nothing. I didn't press him on that, because I figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. He wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. I don't think he could have realized that, because, I mean, as I am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. And as an individual he never did really seek company. But then, no Communist lives like the Communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that Lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? Do you believe he did it?

Miss MURRET. On circumstantial evidence, but I don't--there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, I--it could have been more than one shot actually, or I mean shot from more than one place.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see Lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in New Orleans?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any rifle in his apartment?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever mention that he had a rifle?

Miss MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you can remember about Lee that I didn't ask you about that you think the Commission should know? If you can, I would like to have you put it in the record.

Miss MURRET. I don't know of any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you interviewed by the FBI?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many times?

Miss MURRET. Once. My mother and I at the same time----

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?

Miss MURRET. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?

Miss MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES MURRET

The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Charles Murret, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. Did she receive those?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; she did.

Mr. JENNER. And did you see them, and read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. You did read them?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, 1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard.

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. First, do you have a nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What is that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Dutz.

Mr. JENNER. Dutz?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?

Mr. MURRET. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me.

Mr. JENNER. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.

Mr. JENNER. Did you do much prizefighting?

Mr. MURRET. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a career of it, or anything.

Mr. JENNER. How old a man are you?

Mr. MURRET. 63; just made 63.

Mr. JENNER. You were born and raised in Louisiana?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. And your family were all born Americans?

Mr. MURRET. Right.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, you have a fine family.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you very much.

Mr. JENNER. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the way.

Mr. MURRET. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have, four or five?

Mr. MURRET. Five.

Mr. JENNER. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. He finished law school before he entered this institute in Mobile, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.

Mr. JENNER. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb Co., is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.

Mr. JENNER. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; three boys and two girls.

Mr. JENNER. Were all three boys interested in athletics?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes.

Mr. JENNER. All interested in baseball?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?

Mr. MURRET. They are all right handed.

Mr. JENNER. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Not that you know of?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, she could have.

Mr. JENNER. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.

Mr. JENNER. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.

Mr. JENNER. You couldn't get along with her?

Mr. MURRET. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.

Mr. JENNER. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?

Mr. MURRET. Ed is all I knew him by.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him once in a while?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I saw him just by chance.

Mr. JENNER. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.

Mr. JENNER. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.

Mr. JENNER. Was he ever a stevedore?

Mr. MURRET. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.

Mr. JENNER. But you knew they were married?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. They didn't get along?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And they separated?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, it did.

Mr. JENNER. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them once in a while during this period?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see them pretty often.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What business was he in?

Mr. MURRET. The insurance business.

Mr. JENNER. Was he an insurance collector?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He was not an insurance salesman?

Mr. MURRET. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his company.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?

Mr. MURRET. Alvar? Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was right after he died.

Mr. JENNER. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? Did she go to work, or what?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited anything from the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of my business, so I didn't ask about that.

Mr. JENNER. You mind your own business?

Mr. MURRET. That's right; that's what I did then, too.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, after Mr. Oswald died?

Mr. MURRET. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?

Mr. MURRET. No; never in my life.

Mr. JENNER. There has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. You don't know anything about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.

Mr. JENNER. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?

Mr. MURRET. Not too well.

Mr. JENNER. Not too well?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did they go?

Mr. MURRET. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. To Texas?

Mr. MURRET. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave your house?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they sure did.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they left.

Mr. JENNER. You just didn't follow that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of 1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New Orleans? Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And 13, 14 years old?

Mr. MURRET. About that, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned to New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, or do you know?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.

Mr. JENNER. What do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.

Mr. JENNER. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New Orleans, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that they were in New York; I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?

Mr. MURRET. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.

Mr. JENNER. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, right?

Mr. MURRET. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost contact with them.

Mr. JENNER. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at Exchange Alley, didn't they?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. Do you remember that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. When was the next time that you saw either of them?

Mr. MURRET. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't remember what month, but it was about that.

Mr. JENNER. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?

Mr. MURRET. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now, tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the kitchen.

Mr. JENNER. That was after you came home from work?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You were surprised to see him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What happened then?

Mr. MURRET. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, "Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Physically, at least?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Not a thing?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you on that occasion?

Mr. MURRET. What did he tell me?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house?

Mr. MURRET. Did I help him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day.

Mr. JENNER. The next day?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a couple of days afterward.

Mr. JENNER. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't remember that.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Are you sure now?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it?

Mr. MURRET. You mean gone to the bus station with him?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time?

Mr. MURRET. I might have. I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that sort of thing?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.

Mr. JENNER. Did it have a name on it?

Mr. MURRET. I didn't see any.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I remember doing that.

Mr. JENNER. And you drove?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I drove.

Mr. JENNER. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How many duffelbags were there?

Mr. MURRET. I think there were two of them.

Mr. JENNER. What else did he have?

Mr. MURRET. That's all that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any cardboard boxes?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any suitcases?

Mr. MURRET. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he do that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he put them in my car.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see him doing that?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I saw him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. All right; you reached home, right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the car unpacked then?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; by Lee.

Mr. JENNER. Lee did the unpacking?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.

Mr. JENNER. Did he get an apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where was that?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the number is concerned, I don't know it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Lee's wife?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Marina?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.

Mr. JENNER. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine arrived?

Mr. MURRET. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.

Mr. JENNER. Lee rode with you?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two children with her.

Mr. JENNER. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home?

Mr. MURRET. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must have come in the daytime.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?

Mr. MURRET. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the baby, and Lee.

Mr. JENNER. How did this come about?

Mr. MURRET. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.

Mr. JENNER. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made over to Mobile?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, no.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive them over?

Mr. MURRET. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. How long were you there?

Mr. MURRET. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over there.

Mr. JENNER. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there?

Mr. MURRET. I was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds.

Mr. JENNER. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. How about Marina?

Mr. MURRET. No; Marina and my wife--none of us went in.

Mr. JENNER. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?

Mr. MURRET. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he was making.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression?

Mr. MURRET. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything.

Mr. JENNER. You paid it?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.