Chapter III: Part 3

The testimony of Frederick S. O'Sullivan was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Frederick S. O'Sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week telling you that I would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. Did you receive the letter?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The documents I referred to were enclosed with it; were they not?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. One of the things the Commission is interested in is the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, to the extent that knowledge of his background can assist the Commission in evaluating Mr. Oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was alleged, that he was the assassin. Before we get into the knowledge that you may have of Oswald, would you state your full name for the record.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Frederick Stephen Patrick O'Sullivan.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address, Mr. O'Sullivan?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. 413 Heritage Avenue, Gretna, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a member of the New Orleans Police Department, as I understand. Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police Department?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Six years.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were born here in New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how old are you now?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Twenty-six.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you knew Lee Oswald when he attended a junior high school here in New Orleans. Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; Beauregard Junior High.

Mr. LIEBELER. Beauregard Junior High?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. On Canal Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your own education included attendance at Beauregard Junior High School?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It did.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you go to Beauregard?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. One year.

Mr. LIEBELER. And where did you go prior to that time?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. St. Dominic's.

Mr. LIEBELER. St. Dominic's?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Elementary school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In Lakeview in New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. After you left Beauregard, where did you go?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I went to Warren Easton Senior High School.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans also?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you attend college at any place?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes; I am in college in Loyola right now through a police department scholarship.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us everything that you can remember about Oswald when you knew him at Beauregard Junior High School, how you met him, what contacts you had with him, just the whole story.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. All right. I was a cadet in Civil Air Patrol, and while I was in Beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet members in the New Orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at the school that I talked to in particular about joining that. One was Joseph Thompson, one was Edward Voebel--I am not sure how that name is spelled--and Lee Harvey Oswald. My reason for asking Oswald to join was I noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was a marching team?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. A marching unit; yes, sir, and Oswald carried himself always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really fit well on the drill team. He seemed like he could--well, he even gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive I asked the three of them to come out to the airport. I explained what we did out there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at school. Joseph Thompson and Oswald and Voebel all three came out to the airport. Joe Thompson stayed in the squadron, and Oswald came to one or two meetings, possibly three, along with Voebel. However, Voebel then joined the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport, and because he was a closer friend of Oswald, he evidently talked Oswald into coming out to the squadron he had joined.

Mr. LIEBELER. At Moisant Field?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. At Moisant Airport.

Mr. LIEBELER. Right.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Incidentally, Oswald--I didn't know this until I read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short time. I lived in Lakeview at 800 French Street, I believe, and he lived either in the 800 or the 700 block of French Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in 1963 when he came here to New Orleans? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, I didn't live there at that time. No, I moved from French Street around 1957.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else about Oswald at the time he was in Beauregard Junior High School with you, about his friendships? Did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I believe he and I, because of the spelling of our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, but I really don't recall anything. I don't recall much about any of the students at Beauregard or at Warren Easton. I sort of--I was an athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. They had a thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you were an athlete at Beauregard?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What particular sport were you involved in?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Football and track, and the same at Warren Easton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do with sports activities?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald and Voebel were close acquaintances at that time, or do you know?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only in that Voebel left the New Orleans squadron and went out to Moisant and evidently--or I believe he talked Oswald into coming out there with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not Oswald ever did join the Civil Air Patrol, do you?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I don't know that he signed any papers or had uniforms or anything. I know that he came out to New Orleans Airport and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether they wanted to join or not. We will allow this, hoping to get more cadets. I don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. You can check with the Louisiana Wing Headquarters and they can give it to you.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know whether Oswald ever did actually go out to Moisant Field to Civil Air Patrol meetings at that place?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have rifles as a part of your Civil Air Patrol program? Did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. We didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the NRA and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to summer camp we would fire on the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. NRA is the National Rifle Association? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer camp?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Now I am getting summer camp mixed up with the National Guard. I believe we fired .22's in the CAP.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe Oswald engage in rifle practice of any kind in connection with CAP activities?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not Oswald ever did engage in any rifle practice in connection with the CAP?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know David Ferrie, F-e-r-r-i-e?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I know him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any connection between Oswald and David Ferrie?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I have no personal knowledge of anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. Ferrie was involved with the CAP squadron at New Orleans Airport at the time Voebel and Oswald came out to join it? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there was a Captain Hinton. Now I was in the squadron for 6 years, so I am not sure who was in charge at what particular time. I am not sure. He could have been. He may have been, but I am not sure. I know that when he left the New Orleans squadron, Ferrie did have something to do with the Moisant squadron, so he may have. If he wasn't in charge when Oswald was out at New Orleans Airport, he may have been in charge when he went to Moisant Airport.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't know of any time that Oswald associated with or knew Ferrie through the Civil Air Patrol?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I am not sure of any.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no direct knowledge of any relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any information that would lead you to believe that there was a relationship between these two men?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Only that when all of this broke with Oswald, I went through all of the old CAP files that were available, trying to get some information for the Secret Service, the people who had called me up at home, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were these files located?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. These files are in the possession of one Robert Boylston.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He was also a member of the CAP at the time we all were, at New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the records come to be in his possession?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. He is a senior member now. He has maybe recently dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. They are all old records. I am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. Of course, I have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what I know and what I have heard. It gets kind of confusing when you read so much. Sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you find anything in these files that related to Ferrie or Oswald?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, we found papers signed by Ferrie but nothing in relation to Oswald. His name wasn't mentioned in anything at all that we could find, so we assumed at that time that Oswald was in the Moisant squadron. I believe they even had in the paper the dates, and we checked those particular dates and it turned out that Ferrie was in a transition between the New Orleans squadron and the Moisant squadron in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with Oswald. I don't know if he was involved, he could have been.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you found nothing in the files?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Nothing concrete.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you investigated as to the relation between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that there has been publicity here in the New Orleans area concerning a possible relationship between Oswald and Ferrie?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; I believe Captain Ferrie was arrested. I am sure he was arrested, and I believe it was in connection with this Oswald situation. He was booked at the first district station. I don't know just what he was charged with, I believe just 107, under investigation of whatever it was, I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you go ahead.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Lieutenant Dwyer, Paul Dwyer, from the New Orleans Police Department, intelligence division, I accompanied him out to New Orleans Airport where we found Dave Ferrie's airplane. We wanted to check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported Oswald to Dallas. This isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. It had flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. We also checked to see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an airplane.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they tell you why?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a detective on the vice squad? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice activities here in New Orleans?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the whole city. Therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, homosexuals, handbooks. Anything that comes under the vice laws, we handle.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have never had any contact with Ferrie in connection with your activities on the vice squad? Is that correct?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; Ferrie lives or he did live in Jefferson Parish. We have no authority in Jefferson Parish. [Deletion.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Now see if you can recall or think back to your experiences in the Beauregard Junior High School, and tell us if you can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want to add what you have already said about your knowledge of Oswald and his activities at the time he was at Beauregard Junior High School.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Well, I have put quite a bit of thought on this ever since it all happened, especially since I have gotten this correspondence relative to what I know about it, and as much as I would like to help you as much as I can, I just can't think of anything else. I don't want to say something I am not sure of. Well, actually, even if I thought of something, I would tell you and tell you I am not sure, but there is nothing else I can think of.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. I have no other questions at this time, and if there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of the Commission, I want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; thank you.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MILDRED SAWYER

The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?

Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr. Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little curious and looked, and I found that there was one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days' notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3 days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.

Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid there is very little I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in fact he did assassinate the President.

Mrs. SAWYER. I see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so, whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment?

Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street, and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around, and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back and forth ever since.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime?

Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3 years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son, were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI sometime back in November?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and that is when I realized that they were the same people.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?

Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say "little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and he seemed quite polite.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old?

Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he actually is or was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley?

Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called Exchange Alley.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in. In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her for anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs. Oswald and this boy? Is that right?

Mrs. SAWYER. That is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was?

Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home before his mother and he was very quiet.

Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very low voiced and----

Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any scolding?

Mrs. SAWYER. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with other people, and I think neighbors especially.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come and go?

Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock or so.

Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working?

Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary.

Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too?

Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time?

Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were going or anything?

Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I came back, well, they were gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him to distinguish him from other boys his age?

Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of, and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during that time?

Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them?

Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered----

Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and----

Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly?

Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice would be involved in anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever hear him talking about politics to anybody?

Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14 years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would have been quite----

Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious?

Mrs. SAWYER. True.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming over.

Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome.

Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the cooperation that you have given us.

Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is so vague and such a little bit.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNE BOUDREAUX

The testimony of Mrs. Anne Boudreaux was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, 831 Pauline Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. Anne Boudreaux, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your husband's name is Edward?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Boudreaux, you received a letter from the general counsel of the Commission, did you not?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I did.

Mr. JENNER. In which was enclosed a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, which authorized the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I have the letter with me.

Mr. JENNER. And the order of Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the United States, bringing the Commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I therefore take it you understand from those documents that the Commission was authorized and appointed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22d of November 1963?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff, of the Commission, and I would like to inquire of you a little bit to see if you can't give us some information that will help the Commission in its investigation.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. We are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, information that may be helpful to the Commission in its work, and the Commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because these are always a little inconvenient, of course.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, Mrs. Boudreaux, you live at 831 Pauline Street, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 831 Pauline?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Since 1932--no, I beg your pardon, 1942; since June 15, 1942.

Mr. JENNER. 1942, rather than 1932?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, that's right. I wasn't thinking right.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, are you a native of this part of the country?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I am.

Mr. JENNER. You were born here and reared here?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I was born in Louisiana, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your husband?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. My husband too.

Mr. JENNER. And you have a family?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, I do.

Mr. JENNER. How many children?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I have five children.

Mr. JENNER. What are their ages, Mrs. Boudreaux?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. 22, 17, two 16's, and one 11.

Mr. JENNER. Two 16's?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you know?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. That's Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with her?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I did not.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know to where she moved when you took over that house?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I do not.

Mr. JENNER. That home is a single family dwelling, is it not?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a double house.

Mr. JENNER. A double house?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that up and down, or side by side?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Two sides.

Mr. JENNER. Side by side with a common party wall, I suppose?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Who occupies the other house?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. On the other side?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. It's a Mr. Russo.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Russo?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Him and his wife, but they were living there when I moved in.

Mr. JENNER. When you moved in?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; they were there already.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought about or played a part in Mrs. Oswald's leaving those premises?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I didn't hear anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some experiences with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; like I told the detective that came to see me, that was Mrs. Roach; she's dead now.

Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Roach?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where did she live?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. She lived with them for about 2 weeks. She was their babysitter.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, babysitter for Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; for the baby.

Mr. JENNER. She baby-sat for Lee Oswald then, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did she live in that neighborhood?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She used to live on Lesseps Street.

Mr. JENNER. That is where with respect to your home; about how far away?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, about 6 blocks, I guess. It's right about a block from the Port of Embarkation.

Mr. JENNER. And she would come over and babysit for Lee, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she stayed with Mrs. Oswald for 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. She actually moved into the home?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, for 2 weeks she moved in.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, that was right before Mrs. Oswald moved out, and I moved in.

Mr. JENNER. Shortly before that?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, it wasn't long before that. In fact, it was through her that I knew the house was going to be empty.

Mr. JENNER. Through Mrs. Roach?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You had been acquainted with her for some time?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Mrs. Roach?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Oh, yes. I had known Mrs. Roach since I was a little bitty girl. She was in the Oswald home either in the early part of June or the latter part of May 1942.

Mr. JENNER. She was?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have some conversations with her at the time with respect to Lee's conduct?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Who, Mrs. Roach?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; with respect to Lee's conduct while she was babysitting?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she usually talked about things like that, you know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. The reason why Mrs. Roach had to leave?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more.

Mr. JENNER. Lee then would have been about 2-1/2 years old, is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. A little more than that?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said she just couldn't take it any longer.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me as best you can what Mrs. Roach recalled in that conversation with you.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. She said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that.

Mr. JENNER. Of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a gun or not, or what a gun was, would he?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, but you know, she said it was just a little toy gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time with him.

Mr. JENNER. She thought he exhibited fits of temper?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes. She said he was a, I mean, a bad child; that's what she said.

Mr. JENNER. Did she say anything about the other two boys.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, she didn't. In fact, I didn't even know about the other boys until the man told me who he was. I didn't know she had other boys.

Mr. JENNER. That man who told you that, was he from the FBI or the Secret Service?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; he came out three times to see me.

Mr. JENNER. When you moved into that home, what was the reputation in the neighborhood or community with respect to Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, nobody ever talked about her. You know, neighbors sort of keep to themselves. I mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever moves in they keep to themselves. They don't make up to you too quickly, I mean.

Mr. JENNER. But as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was her reputation for truth and veracity, for example?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, they have never spoken about that, at least to me, I mean, the neighbors.

Mr. JENNER. You never heard anything bad about her?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No, I never did, and as far as her being a good mother to her children, well, I have never heard anything other than good. I have never heard anything spoken about her.

Mr. JENNER. When her son Lee was 2-1/2 years old, was she working at that time?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I think she was.

Mr. JENNER. Is that why she had to have a babysitter.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. I mean, the lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--Mrs. Roach. She's deceased. She could have told you a lot more about all that.

Mr. JENNER. What did you learn as to how long she had been living there?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I don't know how long she had been living there when I moved in.

Mr. JENNER. Where is 831 Pauline Street with respect to 1012 Bartholomew?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. That would be about 4 blocks, I would say, from where I live.

Mr. JENNER. From 1012 Bartholomew to where you live would be about 4 blocks?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn that she lived at one time at 1010 Bartholomew?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't. I don't know where she lived after she left there.

Mr. JENNER. Were these rented homes, or could you purchase them?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. The one where I was living?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. They were rented, but now I own my home.

Mr. JENNER. But they were being rented at that time?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. The former landlady, is she alive?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; she's not.

Mrs. JENNER. She's dead?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; she's dead.

Mr. JENNER. Until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard of any of the Oswalds from the time they moved away?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. No; I didn't know until the FBI man told me--until he got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. I didn't realize that until he told me. The only other contact I had--I don't know if it's important or not----

Mr. JENNER. Well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. We want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Well, I bought the boy's baby bed, and I gave Mrs. Roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and then they never came back for the money, I don't think.

Mr. JENNER. In advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I bought the bed, which I still have, and I raised all my children with it.

Mr. JENNER. Is that right?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes; I raised my five children with it, and I intend to give it to them even though this happened. Like I say, it wasn't concerning them at all.

Mr. JENNER. Now, these depositions will be written up by the court reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. If you decide to waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington to be read by the members of the Commission conducting this investigation.

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. I don't need to sign it. All I was saying was the truth, and that's all I can do.

Mr. JENNER. Then I take it you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing the deposition?

Mrs. BOUDREAUX. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Very well; thank you very much for appearing here voluntarily and giving us your statement.

TESTIMONY OF MRS. VIOLA PETERMAN

The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. No; that's Milfred.

Mr. JENNER. Milfred?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name.

Mr. JENNER. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman?

Mrs. PETERMAN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Viola.

Mr. JENNER. Is that V-i-o-l-a?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that correct?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The general counsel of the Warren Commission?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't there?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and have testimony before the Commission; is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are deposing various people around the country whose lives came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, I can only tell you what I know.

Mr. JENNER. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are you a native of this part of the country?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; New Orleans, La.

Mr. JENNER. You were born here?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And was your husband likewise born here?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And what is his business or occupation?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.

Mr. JENNER. He retired last year?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; since March last year.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years ago that they lived there.

Mr. JENNER. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see--I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 years ago that I moved there.

Mr. JENNER. Was she already living there when you moved there?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, because she was in there first.

Mr. JENNER. Were these relatively new houses?

Mrs. PETERMAN. No; they were old places.

Mr. JENNER. They had been lived in before?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side of the street?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Right next door. There were three single homes on two lots, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Three single-family dwellings on two lots?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; on two city lots.

Mr. JENNER. Are they identical houses?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed theirs up different, you see.

Mr. JENNER. Describe those houses for me.

Mrs. PETERMAN. What do you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and how large.

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just straight houses.

Mr. JENNER. Four rooms and a bath?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Of what construction; wood?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Wood; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman?

Mrs. PETERMAN. I had four children.

Mr. JENNER. What were their ages around that time?

Mrs. PETERMAN. When she moved there and we moved there; right around that time, you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.

Mr. JENNER. Your eldest child was a boy or girl?

Mrs. PETERMAN. A girl.

Mr. JENNER. And her present name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann.

Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that--Herrmann?

Mrs. PETERMAN. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n.

Mr. JENNER. What's her first name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Marian is her first name.

Mr. JENNER. Does she still live in New Orleans?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Well, she lives down in Chalmette.

Mr. JENNER. Is that near here?

Mrs. PETERMAN. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a city?

Mrs. PETERMAN. What, Chalmette?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PETERMAN. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St. Bernard.

Mr. JENNER. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. She's now what; 45?

Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she will be 46.

Mr. JENNER. Was she living at home at that time?

Mrs. PETERMAN. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; she was.

Mr. JENNER. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a boy or girl?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Boy.

Mr. JENNER. His name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile.

Mr. JENNER. Where does he live now?

Mrs. PETERMAN. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court.

Mr. JENNER. St. Claude Court?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in New Orleans?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was her name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Myra; another girl.

Mr. JENNER. Myra?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Myra is now married; is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What's her married name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Davis.

Mr. JENNER. What's the name of her husband?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Eddie.

Mr. JENNER. Edward?

Mrs. PETERMAN. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it.

Mr. JENNER. Does he work here?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at Public Service.

Mr. JENNER. Where do they live?

Mrs. PETERMAN. They live on Cedar Avenue--713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie.

Mr. JENNER. Metairie?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that part of New Orleans?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.

Mr. JENNER. All right; and then your youngest?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Let me explain about her.

Mr. JENNER. Go right ahead.

Mrs. PETERMAN. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.

Mr. JENNER. What was that?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Her name was--when she was single, Welbrock, but she married, and now it's Kushler.

Mr. JENNER. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the time?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; at that time, yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was her first name?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Cecelia.

Mr. JENNER. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And they reside where?

Mrs. PETERMAN. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly.

Mr. JENNER. Rabbit Street in Gentilly?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a part of New Orleans?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes; it's the part out by the lake.

Mr. JENNER. Which lake?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Lake Pontchartrain.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Emile?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mrs. PETERMAN. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's 34 right now.

Mr. JENNER. He's 34 now?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Myra will be how old?

Mrs. PETERMAN. She made 32 in February.

Mr. JENNER. And Cecelia?

Mr. PETERMAN. She will be 30 this month--I mean, in May--May 15.

Mr. JENNER. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending elementary school, is that right?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did they all attend the same school?

Mrs. PETERMAN. They went to Washington, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Washington Elementary School?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Where is that?

Mrs. PETERMAN. St. Claude and Alvar.

Mr. JENNER. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary school and high school at that time?

Mrs. PETERMAN. Who is that?

Mr. JENNER. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from high school?

Mrs. PETERMAN. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?