Chapter XXII: Part 22

Mr. POWERS. I think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "Ozzie," I think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the Marines or at least the period that I was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the Marine Corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he getting along with his fellow Marines during this period?

Mr. POWERS. I think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and I don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. Again I'm not sure because he was in this particular crew----

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. There might have been. Now, that you recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; I'm not sure whether I want to recall it or something that is actually fact.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't say truthfully.

Mr. JENNER. But any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure speculation?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on.

Mr. JENNER. What was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that because he had the unregistered or private weapon?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. Again, maybe this is something again that I want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature.

Mr. JENNER. When you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, I take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that----

Mr. POWERS. I have heard somewhere else.

Mr. JENNER. More than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you're making that distinction for that reason?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention?

Mr. POWERS. Now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in Yokohama; I'm not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any--is this in the area of guessing?

Mr. POWERS. It's scuttlebutt-type of thing. It's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. Okay. What did Oswald do for entertainment on leaves?

Mr. POWERS. This seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in Japan, and this was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the United States at all. Now, I'm almost--well, I can't say for sure, but I attribute this statement to him again.

Mr. JENNER. Did he set up housekeeping, set up some Japanese girl; is that what you mean?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. This is--this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and I think that he was one of the ones that did--went for this type of thing. I'm not sure whether he did, but I can attribute this statement to him that he did.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country.

Mr. JENNER. But he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Rather than return to the United States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were you given liberty when you were at Atsugi the way you were given liberty at Biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty?

Mr. POWERS. Gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at Atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went on liberty.

Mr. JENNER. And how often were you permitted this liberty?

Mr. POWERS. As I recall, you could get it on every day.

Mr. JENNER. And what about weekends?

Mr. POWERS. And, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so 3 weekends out of the month.

Mr. JENNER. So you would have 3 out of the 4?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Per month?

Mr. POWERS. Possibly every fifth one we stood, but I think it was 3.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, three out of four you had liberty, and 1 of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get?

Mr. POWERS. I couldn't truthfully say.

Mr. JENNER. All right. What was that operation called in the Philippines, Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I believe the second one was Strong Back, yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you say "second one," what do you mean by that?

Mr. POWERS. The first one they went down to--when I stayed down to play football; I don't remember what that was.

Mr. JENNER. But the one that you attended was Operation Strong Back?

Mr. POWERS. I think so; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you boys ever sent to Formosa?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, we--this was on our way home. Now, this wasn't--he was still in Japan, as I remember; he must have--yes, he was still in Japan, and on our way home, we went to Formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, I believe, there.

Mr. JENNER. But Oswald was not there with you?

Mr. POWERS. No. And then we just went on across----

Mr. JENNER. While you continued to have acquaintance and contact with Oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall Oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the .22 caliber pistol?

Mr. POWERS. I think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after I left Japan.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. I arrived home on the 4th of July, so I must have been en route most of June.

Mr. JENNER. But you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to him?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. Now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in Japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I can't say that I recall anything because a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it.

Some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. Whether he did or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. What about Oswald's drinking habits or propensities?

Mr. POWERS. I think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in Japan, extensively at least; and other than that, I don't know. And a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But you have no impression of Oswald in that particular connection?

Mr. POWERS. No; nothing. My actual association with him in Japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "Hi, Ozzie."

Mr. JENNER. Did he have any interest in the Russian language?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhere along the line he was reading a Russian book or something. I'm not sure, again, whether it was written in Russian or whether it was written in the American language. It pertained to the Russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that I relate--associate, reading this type of literature. I think it was in Japan, but I'm not sure, though.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression of him studying the Russian language as such?

Mr. POWERS. In actually sitting down and studying it; no.

Mr. JENNER. In seeking to become familiar with the language?

Mr. POWERS. I would say no; no, that I do not because I just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses.

Mr. JENNER. Were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. It seems to me I was, but again I'm not sure. It either came--I truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that I read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that I read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature.

Mr. JENNER. That wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. All of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. And if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the Marines; well, is it or not, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. By this time, were you a sergeant?

Mr. POWERS. I believe I made sergeant right before I came home, or--I think it was a week or two right before I came home. I was a sergeant before I left to come home, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Still at this time Oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think--I think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a recollection that in Japan he began to stand up for his own rights?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He was a little more aggressive than he was back in the States?

Mr. POWERS. Yes. Again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or 9 months while he was in the Marine Corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that first 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever express any sympathy toward the Communist Party?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Toward Communist principles?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or Marxist doctrines?

Mr. POWERS. None that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your presence?

Mr. POWERS. I'm not sure. He didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that I would recall.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing to excite you?

Mr. POWERS. Nothing that I would attach any political significance to.

Mr. JENNER. And what was his attitude toward discipline in the Marine Corps? Was it antagonistic? Was it different in any degree from other marines?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think that it was. I think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. He volunteered. A lot of complaining just as anyone else did. But nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. However, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. He must have been--or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while.

Mr. JENNER. He would?

Mr. POWERS. Well----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Can you give me any incident----

Mr. POWERS. Well, just going back----

Mr. JENNER. That would express that opinion?

Mr. POWERS. Well, in Japan or something, possibly in the barracks, I recall, or like in Biloxi, he had some scuffles. I said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but I wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble maker. I would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but I don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. I think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it.

Mr. JENNER. But at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as I say, this is a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. Did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in Chicago?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or Milwaukee?

Mr. POWERS. I cannot say; I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Or did he ever mention somebody by the name of Ruby, Jack Ruby or Rubenstein, Jack Rubenstein?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard that name associated with him.

Mr. JENNER. Even when he was in Japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes. I think that he did. Again I couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever recall him being intoxicated?

Mr. POWERS. Not distinctly; no. It seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it----

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get into any fights while you were over in Japan?

Mr. POWERS. Oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about Gen. Robert E. Lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or----

Mr. POWERS. It seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of Lee Harvey Oswald. There was some relationship there in the Civil War type of thing. I'm not sure what it was.

Mr. JENNER. During your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind?

Mr. POWERS. Well, I think the term is loosely taken.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. Odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have.

Mr. JENNER. There might have been a lot of odd-balls in the Marines.

Mr. POWERS. There are a lot of odd-balls in the Marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere.

Mr. JENNER. But nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball?

Mr. POWERS. Well, he was different. You could use it--what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'm trying to go along with you; he was different.

Mr. POWERS. He was a different individual, I would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the Marine Corps because he was--which I previously stated, I think--he was a quiet--if you want to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the Ozzie Rabbit incident.

And he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. At least, this was the opinion I think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the Marine Corps; maybe it just followed him. And maybe--physically, like I say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the Marine Corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the Marine Corps' own definition of what a Marine is supposed to--ideally supposed to be.

Mr. JENNER. Was he argumentatively inclined?

Mr. POWERS. Somewhat. I wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite side of the argument, but I think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the Marine Corps--well, I wouldn't say possibly; I would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them.

Mr. JENNER. Are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence?

Mr. POWERS. Let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. At least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think there might have been any resentment on that account?

Mr. POWERS. There may have been, I suppose, the frail--maybe he portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. And, of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the Marine Corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic problems or school.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he was?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; he was not in my platoon. At least, I don't think he was. I don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the Browning automatic rifle.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had?

Mr. POWERS. I don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. He had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering a move or something, and he, as I recall now, he would say "Come on; let's get going." And he seemed to be an individual that was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe I asked you this--to keep by himself?

Mr. POWERS. For himself to keep by himself?

Mr. JENNER. To keep by himself.

Mr. POWERS. I don't know. I don't think I can truthfully answer that because----

Mr. JENNER. You don't think you had enough contact with him in Japan because he was not a member of your platoon?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. In an FBI interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? Do you still hold that view?

Mr. POWERS. He probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. POWERS. It didn't make a difference who was administering--rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of Delgado?

Mr. POWERS. I can't say that I do; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thornley?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was Murphy's first name, do you recall?

Mr. POWERS. Jim Murphy. I don't think that was it either; I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of----

Mr. POWERS. We used to call him Murph.

Mr. JENNER. Murray?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Shoemaker?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Call?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That may have been pronounced Botelho. Did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing?

Mr. POWERS. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion?

Mr. POWERS. I don't recall.

Mr. JENNER. Botelho's full name was James Anthony Botelho; Call's full name was Richard Dennis Call. You mentioned Camarata, Donald P. Camarata?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you remember a marine by the name of Peter Cassisi?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir; I don't. If I saw the face, I could probably recall.

Mr. JENNER. A fellow by the name of Peter Francis Connor?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I recall that name.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a commanding officer at Santa Ana by the name of John E. Donovan?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember a marine by the name of John Heindel?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Sometimes called Hidell? This is Atsugi now.

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. A marine by the name of Erwin Donald Lewis?

Mr. POWERS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think I asked about Murray, David Christie Murray. Murphy's name was Paul, Paul Edward Murphy.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, yes.

Mr. JENNER. You remember him in the Far East?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, he was in the same crew that I was in.

Mr. JENNER. Osborne's first name was Mac, M-a-c.

Well, that completes my examination. And any further reflections which I will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the Commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. No; I don't think there is really anything that I can add. I think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. You may waive that, if you wish also.

Mr. POWERS. I waive it; there is no reason why----

Mr. JENNER. As far as you're concerned----

Mr. POWERS. As far as I'm concerned.

Mr. JENNER. You rely on the accuracy of the reporter?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN E. DONOVAN

The testimony of John E. Donovan was taken at 10:30 a.m., on May 5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission. Richard M. Mosk, also a member of the staff, was present.

Mr. ELY. Would you stand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do.

Mr. ELY. Please be seated. My name is John Ely.

The gentleman directly to my right is Richard Mosk. We are both members of the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, which was appointed by President Johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of President Kennedy.

The rules of the Commission require that I give to you a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, which is the President's order creating this Commission, a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress, and a copy of the Commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses.

Is it correct to say that I have given you a copy of each of these documents?

Mr. DONOVAN. You gave them to me, and I gave them a cursory reading.

Mr. ELY. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. DONOVAN. John E. Donovan.

Mr. ELY. And where do you live?

Mr. DONOVAN. 2009 Belmont Road, NW., Washington, D.C.

Mr. ELY. What is your occupation?

Mr. DONOVAN. I teach school at Ascension Academy, Alexandria, Va.

Mr. ELY. And prior to teaching at Ascension Academy, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended medical school last year at Georgetown University.

Mr. ELY. You did not, however, get a medical degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Previous to attending medical school, what did you do?

Mr. DONOVAN. I attended the University of Dayton; Dayton, Ohio.

Mr. ELY. This is after you got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. Eight months prior to that, I worked for a bank in Boston, Mass. Prior to that, I was employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

Mr. ELY. For how long?

Mr. DONOVAN. Three years and 3 months, I think.

Mr. ELY. And what was the rank at which you were discharged?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Mr. ELY. You had had higher education before you entered the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. Prior to the Marine Corps I completed Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in 1956.

Mr. ELY. And you received a bachelor of arts degree?

Mr. DONOVAN. A bachelor of science, foreign service.

Mr. ELY. As you undoubtedly know, Mr. Donovan, we have called you here because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the background of Lee Harvey Oswald, whom I believe you knew when you were both members of the Marine Corps.

Why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with Oswald, and I will interrupt with questions.

Mr. DONOVAN. In the spring of 1959, I returned from a tour in Japan. I was assigned to Marine Air Control Squadron 9 in Santa Ana, Calif.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. There is something in these service records that confuses me. Is the installation at Santa Ana separate from the one at El Toro?

Mr. DONOVAN. It comes under the command of El Toro, but it is, I believe, 5 miles removed.

El Toro is a jet type base. Santa Ana is still known by the title of "LTA" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in World War II it was a blimp base. It is now a helicopter base and a radar base.

In that spring, I was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at Marine Air Control Squadron 9, and it is there that I came into contact with Oswald.

Mr. ELY. What was your rank at this time?

Mr. DONOVAN. First lieutenant.

Our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. Some of my fellow officers there had served with Oswald in Japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them.

I was informed that Oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs.

Mr. ELY. Who told you this?

Mr. DONOVAN. Bill Trail--William Kenneth Trail is his name--had served with him in Japan, and was around when Oswald underwent some court-martial proceedings, but I don't recall what they were. I don't know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if I actually knew then. I don't believe I recall. At any rate, Oswald served on my crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine.

Mr. ELY. Let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and Oswald.

Would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; that is not correct. The commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. Oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew I was the officer in command.

Mr. ELY. I understand. How many men were on the crew?

Mr. DONOVAN. I believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. It varied from time to time. We were supposed to have 12 enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength.

Mr. ELY. So Oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact?

Mr. DONOVAN. Correct. I served with him on a 4-hour watch once a day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch.

During night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. Often this was quite boring. And this is when I had the most occasion to talk to him.

Mr. ELY. It amazed me how much you remembered about Oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man.

Do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would remember, I believe, all of them equally well. Most of them I had served with in Japan.

Mr. ELY. You had not known Oswald in Japan?

Mr. DONOVAN. If I knew him in Japan, I don't remember. They played football on a team that I coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond.

Number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. They have a much higher than average IQ. And they speak well on a given subject they are interested in--usually women and sports. But it was quite normal in working with them to talk with them about all subjects.

You were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. And it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours.

I think I can remember all the men on that crew pretty well.

Mr. ELY. All right. I derailed you there for a moment. You had mentioned what Lieutenant Trail had told you. And I don't think there is any point in going into that any further.

Well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. You said that you thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms of ability for Marine Corps enlisted men. Would you say that Oswald specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job?

Mr. DONOVAN. Both. I think he had a given IQ or GCT, General Classification Test score, that would place him in a position of being there. I also found him competent in any job I saw him try in the center. Sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. Sometimes he surveiled for aircraft in distress. Sometimes he made plots on the board. Sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the Air Force or Navy. And sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning up getting ready to go home. I found him competent in all functions.

Sometimes he was a little moody. But I never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. And in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business.

He was always neat. He was neat. Sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate.

Mr. ELY. When you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? In other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform?

Mr. DONOVAN. His quarters were not exceptionally neat, and I did have occasion to inspect them.

But he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. I don't think he was that way by nature. But I think he had figured out that the Marine Corps demanded this of him. And he at least complied in that respect.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up?

Mr. DONOVAN. I recall that there was some difficulty. Two or three inspections had gone badly. And that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. It is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. But after the complaints came in long enough, I believe he was transferred to another hut.

Mr. ELY. But your general impression is that he was not especially----

Mr. DONOVAN. Sloppy--no; he was not sloppy.

Mr. ELY. I wonder, Mr. Donovan, if you could return to your description of the way Oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations.

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I have been on watch with him when an emergency arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. And he was right. There was usually an obvious solution. Then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him.

Mr. ELY. Did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall him being particularly excitable.

Mr. ELY. Would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction?

Mr. DONOVAN. I just think in that respect he was normal.

Mr. ELY. Did you have occasion to observe the relation between Oswald and his fellow enlisted men?

Mr. DONOVAN. At times; yes.

Mr. ELY. Did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he did not share a common interest with them. For better or for worse, the average young American male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. This I don't believe would characterize him at all. He read a great deal.

Mr. ELY. Excuse me. Do you remember anything that he read specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a Russian newspaper.

Mr. ELY. When you say Russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the Russian language?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I do not.

Mr. ELY. You never saw that newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never saw the newspaper.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever question Oswald about his reading of it?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel--although----

Mr. ELY. When you say that, are you implying that it not only was a Russian newspaper, but it was also a Communist newspaper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I implied that. And I felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the United States newspapers.

Mr. ELY. Was the paper printed in Russia, do you know?

Mr. DONOVAN. I do not know.

Mr. ELY. And, of course, you don't know the name of the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. Did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. He couldn't prove it by me, because I don't speak Russian. But he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. As far as I know, he could.

Mr. ELY. But you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content?

Mr. DONOVAN. To a degree. I think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. He enjoyed studying them. He thought there were many great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation.

I know that he constantly brought up the idea that our Government must be run by many incompetent people. And, as I stated, and you have probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation.

His bond with me was that I was a recent graduate of the Foreign Service School, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. And he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. He took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "Thank you very much."

As soon as we were alone again, he would say, "Do you agree with that?"

In many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in Australia.

And Oswald would then say, "Now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong--when I obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man."

And I think his grave misunderstanding that I tried to help him with is that these men were Marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the Marine Corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. And in some respects he was probably better informed than most people in the Marine Corps, namely, on international affairs.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; not particularly.

I know that Cuba interested him more than most other situations. He was fairly well informed about Mr. Batista. He referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. I think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the Batista administration. And he was against that. And he was against this sort of dictatorship.

But I never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a Communist, or that he ever thought about being a Communist.

Mr. ELY. Did you hear him express sympathy for Castro specifically?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes--but, on the other hand, so did Time Magazine at that time. Harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our better schools, I suppose. At any rate, what he said about Castro was not an unpopular belief at that time.

Mr. ELY. What did he say?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown Batista.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in Cuba or anywhere else?

Mr. DONOVAN. He not only never said it to me, I never heard of him saying it to anyone else.

Mr. ELY. Based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that Oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? Do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things?

Mr. DONOVAN. Most young men in the Marine Corps, I suppose in all services, have the common bond that they want to get out. He certainly shared that common bond with them. I think that was his only common bond. I don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. I don't think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. And although I believe he drank, sometimes to excess, I don't believe that he shared even that companionship with them consistently.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. For this reason, were there men in the unit who shared Oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading?

Mr. DONOVAN. Not that I know of. But as I have told both the FBI and the Secret Service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name I am sorry I cannot remember, whose nickname was Beezer----

Mr. ELY. Would the man's name be Roussel?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is it. He was from Louisiana, I believe. And this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. I took her out on one occasion, I believe that this boy was at least interested enough in Oswald that he fixed Oswald up with her once. And she related to me that he could speak Russian, which I had heard before. And she referred to him as kind of an oddball. You probably have her name and can talk to her.

Mr. ELY. Was her name Rosaleen Quinn?

Would that ring a bell? You don't remember?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell.

Mr. ELY. But you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality?

Mr. DONOVAN. She went out with him once, maybe twice. Maybe more than that, I don't know about. I don't know if she could or not.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which Oswald did extensive reading in?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not.

Mr. ELY. Have you ever stated that Oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, that is a correct statement. He knew the names of some philosophers.

Mr. ELY. Is it your feeling that he read philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. Quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context.

I only had 2 years of philosophy and 2 years of theology at Georgetown. But even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it.

Mr. ELY. Do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention?

Mr. DONOVAN. Hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later action.

Mr. ELY. Hegel.

Did he mention Marx?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned Marx, but I don't ever recall him using Marxist philosophy to support anything in particular.

Mr. ELY. Is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy?

Mr. DONOVAN. Social revolutions.

Mr. ELY. Do you know whether Oswald had any knowledge of languages other than Russian and English?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I do not. I recall that we had occasion to speak Spanish on the radio, because ham operators from Mexico were forever cutting in. He may have known a few words. But he did not--I don't believe he had a command of Spanish.

Mr. ELY. You have no recollection of his speaking or understanding German at all?

Mr. DONOVAN. I have no recollection.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the Marine Corps?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I cannot say that he did.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever express to you an interest in attending school anywhere?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes, now that you mention it; I think he did mention that he intended to pursue school. And, in fact, it was standard for all officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. He certainly had the ability, if he had wanted to do it.

There was another boy named Sergeant Park, from Washington, who, I believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. I have given this gentleman's name to both the FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. ELY. Did Oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country?

Mr. DONOVAN. Never. It came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in Moscow.

Mr. ELY. In fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country.

Mr. DONOVAN. He never mentioned it to me.

Mr. ELY. Did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. Evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald spoke of injustices which took place during the Batista regime. Do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices?

Mr. DONOVAN. No, I don't, except for Asia in general. I think in talking with the FBI and the Secret Service I mentioned Guatemala or something, and I tried to tell them that was only an example, that I never heard him specifically refer to Guatemala, or Venezuela, or wherever I was talking with them about.

But he had served in the Orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the Orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any specific interest in Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes. I would say that he was particularly interested in Latin America. He, for instance, was relatively familiar with the Betancourt family, which is a prominent North, South American and Central American family, and their regime as a family.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever mention the Dominican Republic by name?

Mr. DONOVAN. If he did, I don't recall it.

Mr. ELY. Did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in Asia or Latin America?

Mr. DONOVAN. No. His only solution that I could see was that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. His talent was obviously unrecognized by the Marine Corps for commission or staff NCO ability, if it existed.

Mr. ELY. This is his opinion?

Mr. DONOVAN. This is his opinion.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned that Oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports.

Do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and I believe he played end. As I stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, I should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. A quarterback did. And I don't know if he quit or I kicked him off. But, at any rate, he stopped playing.

Mr. ELY. Let me make a comment with regard to something you said.

Undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the FBI and the Secret Service. We now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the Commission. So we know we are being repetitive. We will just ask you to bear with us on this.

Were you the captain of this team?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I was the coach of the team. The captain was a gentleman named Tibbet Czik, and Captain Czik is still on active duty in the Marine Corps. Last summer he was stationed at New River, N.C. And Captain Czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the Marine Corps after having been out for a few years. He knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. I don't believe he would remember him.

Mr. ELY. Was Czik the quarterback?

Mr. DONOVAN. Czik was the quarterback. Czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in New Jersey, and had a lot of talent.

Mr. ELY. Was Oswald a proficient football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; he had his share of ability. But he was too light. I think the boy only weighed about 125, 130 pounds, as I remember. He had a slender build.

Mr. ELY. Would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility?

Mr. DONOVAN. Oh, yes; he was fast enough.

Mr. ELY. So would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school.

Mr. ELY. On any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football?

Mr. DONOVAN. Football. I never saw him play basketball that I recall, although he might have been talented in that field. He was coordinated to a normal degree.

Mr. ELY. Did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; like the other experiences I had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit.

Mr. ELY. You mentioned earlier that you at times inspected Oswald's quarters. Did you have occasion to inspect his rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. Yes; I did. And I don't recall anything out of order.

Mr. ELY. Are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. I do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order.

Mr. ELY. But your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as anybody else?

Mr. DONOVAN. I don't recall to the contrary.

Mr. ELY. Would you have any reason to have an impression as to Oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. No; I would not. I saw his record book, and I believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. If he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, I am sure I would have been aware of it, because I was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in.

Mr. ELY. But you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a rifle?

Mr. DONOVAN. That is correct.

Mr. ELY. The marksmanship scores which are recorded in the Marine Corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score?

Mr. DONOVAN. I would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are reliable. Some people have what is called an M-1 pencil--namely, you can punch holes in the target the size of an M-1 shell to improve the score. This is a court-martial offense. I am sure it does happen.