Chapter XV: Part 15

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of Castro, on the mantel there.

Mr. JENNER. On the mantel?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.

Mr. JENNER. Last summer?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In August it was there?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.

Mr. JENNER. The radio?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead.

Mr. JENNER. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the program?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an automobile?

Mr. MURRET. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach him to talk American to his little child.

Mr. JENNER. What was your discussion with him on that?

Mr. MURRET. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he didn't give me an answer to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of Russia?

Mr. MURRET. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out the window. I figured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?

Mr. MURRET. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "I like America."

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What do you prefer to do in that respect?

Mr. MURRET. I will waive it.

Mr. JENNER. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your deposition?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all the questions I have.

Mr. MURRET. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother.

Mr. JENNER. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. He wanted to do it all himself.

Mr. JENNER. So you let him do it by himself, right?

Mr. MURRET. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN M. MURRET

The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record.

Mr. MURRET. My full name is John Martial Murret.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. MURRET. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom?

Mr. MURRET. E. R. Squibb and Sons.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you worked for them?

Mr. MURRET. Approximately 4 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do for them?

Mr. MURRET. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he not, D-u-t-z?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born here in New Orleans?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the New Orleans school system?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go to school?

Mr. MURRET. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. Louis University and Loyola University.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. A Bachelor's Degree?

Mr. MURRET. A Bachelor's Degree.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you major in?

Mr. MURRET. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.

Mr. MURRET. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did have with him. Since I did live in the house and did----

Mr. LIEBELER. At 757 French Street?

Mr. MURRET. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with him, we ordinarily--sometimes when I am working in that particular neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?

Mr. MURRET. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am not too sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or can't you----

Mr. MURRET. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind of confused now on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and Oswald was there?

Mr. MURRET. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him other than--you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you gain an impression about that?

Mr. MURRET. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, I couldn't, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first place?

Mr. MURRET. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. Other than that--that is the only particular.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?

Mr. MURRET. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of photography?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MURRET. In the Soviet Union?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United States?

Mr. MURRET. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the States.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in Russia? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French Street for about a week? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might be.

Mr. LIEBELER. During this time, he was looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he found one?

Mr. MURRET. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or some place around there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?

Mr. MURRET. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding a job, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't make too good an appearance?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald apparently rented on Magazine Street?

Mr. MURRET. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us about that.

Mr. MURRET. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night--I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?

Mr. MURRET. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was--I could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.

Mr. MURRET. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget--I guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had driven the car from your house on French Street over to the parking lot in the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is my impression of this. So after--we stayed there awhile and then I let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.

Mr. LIEBELER. You let him drive the car back to the house on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or anything. Nobody was in the park.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was just a drive through the park?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. Evidently he could handle the car--I mean just steering--because it was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?

Mr. MURRET. No; that was the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I always had the car working.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in New Orleans, as far as you know?

Mr. MURRET. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuit priest----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go along?

Mr. MURRET. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not go?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I did not go.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?

Mr. MURRET. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, since that time?

Mr. MURRET. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never discussed that particular event?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was at your wedding? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date of that?

Mr. MURRET. That was October 5, 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1963?

Mr. MURRET. Sixty-three, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your brother indicate--did your brother, Eugene, indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?

Mr. MURRET. Well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what your brother thought?

Mr. MURRET. That is what my brother thought; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit priest?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home for lunch----

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald during the summer of 1963?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you meet Marina Oswald?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to her?

Mr. MURRET. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually couldn't speak to her, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could speak English?

Mr. MURRET. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.

Mr. LIEBELER. After the assassination----

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the English language, did you not?

Mr. MURRET. Definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina together?

Mr. MURRET. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other?

Mr. MURRET. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. In fact, they had a television program on one day--I forget what it was, on a Friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; not that I could see.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever discuss politics----

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. With Oswald at all?

Mr. MURRET. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or Governor Connally?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion about Oswald's general character from your observations and experience with him in 1963?

Mr. MURRET. In the summer of 1963?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. MURRET. Actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing anything. It was kind of hard, I guess, for him to get along. Like I say, his appearance in general--I mean, just by looking at him, he just didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. In other words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and get turned down and so forth. It was kind of hard for him after a bit. Someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. He wanted to do it on his own. You could have helped him, you know, but he just didn't want any help. He wouldn't ask for anything, I know that, he wouldn't ask for anything.

Mr. LIEBELER. He struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of fellow?

Mr. MURRET. He was proud, there is no doubt about it. He was proud.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you form an opinion about his intelligence?

Mr. MURRET. He was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright in a different sense of the word. Now whether he thought in the right direction, I really don't know, but he was--but he improved particularly, you know, from the younger years that I had known him. He had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive.

Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to speak well and was articulate?

Mr. MURRET. Right, he was. He used words that an ordinary individual wouldn't use in conversation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was arrested by the New Orleans Police Department some time during the summer of 1963 in connection with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you learn that?

Mr. MURRET. Well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. At the time?

Mr. MURRET. At the time. Either that or my parents had told me. I don't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. Nothing at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know that he was on a radio debate over at WDSU?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Oswald actually called the house out there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not?

Mr. MURRET. Right. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any discussions with him or see him after the radio debate?

Mr. MURRET. If I did see him, I didn't discuss it, you know, with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever at any time discuss with him this Fair Play for Cuba Committee episode or his radio debate or anything in connection with those events?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do I understand that your sister was involved in the events that led to Oswald's release from jail? Is that correct?

Mr. MURRET. To my understanding, she was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she tell you that?

Mr. MURRET. Did she tell me that? That is my oldest sister.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is her name?

Mr. MURRET. Joyce O'Brien.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does she live?

Mr. MURRET. She lives in Beaumont, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. The question was: Did she tell you that she had been involved in getting Oswald out of jail?

Mr. MURRET. I heard something to the effect that while he was in jail he phoned the home. It just so happened my sister was there at the time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did?

Mr. MURRET. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Oswald as a younger boy?

Mr. MURRET. No; not closely. I can recollect, you know, when he was a small boy, but no particular dealings with him. He was too small to hold any conversation with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he was when he was a kid?

Mr. MURRET. He was a nice kid. Just by his pictures and so forth, he was real nice. To me he was harmful [sic].

Mr. LIEBELER. What?

Mr. MURRET. Harmful.

Mr. LIEBELER. Harmful?

Mr. MURRET. Harmless.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Murret?

Mr. MURRET. I am 29.

Mr. LIEBELER. Twenty-nine?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the youngest member of the Murret family? Is that right?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know Lee Oswald's older brother, Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you closer to Robert than you were to Lee, would you say, or how much contact did you have with Robert?

Mr. MURRET. Well, I would say about the same. Actually they weren't here in the city of New Orleans, you know, long enough to get close to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing that you knew about Lee Oswald's youth that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, that you can remember, was there?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I couldn't say. I didn't have that much contact.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now looking back over the summer of 1963, thinking about your contact with Lee Oswald, is there anything that you can think of that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked about? If you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the Commission, we would like to have you tell us.

Mr. MURRET. Well, the only thing I can think of; like I say, it just so happens that I was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had located him a job and so forth, and the only thing I can recollect is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in contact with him, and I had to call the particular coffee plant the next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, right away, he has a job located for you--in photography I think it was. So I had called him, and that was about the end of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did call Lee?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you reach him at the coffee plant?

Mr. MURRET. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say anything when you told him that this employment agency was looking for him?

Mr. MURRET. No; I was just hoping that this was the job that he was looking for. Other than that, that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the employment agency?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir; I don't. They had maybe one or two that called up, different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Lee own a suit of clothes?

Mr. MURRET. I think he did; yes, sir. It was during the summer, and it was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether he wore that suit when he went looking for a job?

Mr. MURRET. He might have wore it once; yes, sir. That was the only suit he had that I know of.

Mr. LIEBELER. How much luggage did Lee have with him when he stayed out at the place on French Street?

Mr. MURRET. I couldn't say. Just the bag that I saw, you know, just the handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. Something like an airline bag?

Mr. MURRET. Yes; something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a soft----

Mr. MURRET. Right, just a small bag.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what color it was?

Mr. MURRET. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't think of anything else that you can remember or that you think would be helpful, I have no more questions at this point.

Mr. MURRET. O.K.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF EDWARD JOHN PIC, JR.

The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir?

Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista.

Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage.

Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

Mr. PIC. I understand.

Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No. 11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission, upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack Ruby.

The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me, to my surprise, that you were very much alive?

Mr. PIC. I certainly am.

Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No. 11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of deposition, as we are doing here today.

Mr. PIC. May I say something?

Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything.

Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January, that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was still alive.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance.

Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told him I didn't; and that was all.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the reports of his death were very much exaggerated?

So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the country, are you not?

Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans.

Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way?

Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes.

Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that right, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that took place when?

Mr. PIC. 1929.

Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people?

Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907.

Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate.

Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. Three years?

Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually terminated?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you separated?

Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple of years; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married to Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk.

Mr. JENNER. In what company?

Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son.

Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company?

Mr. PIC. I am, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has changed; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What do you do now?

Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department of the company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company.

Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the company.

Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that right?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your own words what difficulty you had with her.

Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it come out to four.

Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence?

Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not.

Mr. JENNER. On either side?

Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't.

Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?

Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along, you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing off; which we did.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a nice girl at that time?

Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I had a rotten disposition, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening years; haven't you?

Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr. Pic?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another "Jr.," or II or III?

Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him.

Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation?

Mr. PIC. After the separation.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the separation?

Mr. PIC. I was, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate, and we did.

Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place?

Mr. PIC. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half.

Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered?

Mr. PIC. Oh, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child support to your son?

Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much as I could out of the salary I would make.

Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to her?

Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent monthly checks.

Mr. JENNER. In the same amount?

Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as alimony?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You did not?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.

Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall?

Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20 semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.

Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a month, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry?

Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939.

Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name?

Mr. PIC. Marjorie.

Mr. JENNER. What was her given name?

Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married.

Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow?

Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had died.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage?

Mr. PIC. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy?

Mr. PIC. Girl.

Mr. JENNER. What is her name?

Mr. PIC. Martha.

Mr. JENNER. How old is she?

Mr. PIC. 17 this July.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you?

Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex., or Brownsville; I just don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they refresh your recollection.

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans?

Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010 Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it.

Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember that?

Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic Avenue?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor?

Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas?

Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year?

Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947?

Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes.

Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue?

Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort Worth about then.

Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she was in Fort Worth?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments were finally stopped, is that right?

Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950.

Mr. JENNER. In 1950?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved around quite a bit, as we know?

Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the check.

Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that, because I didn't know he was working.

Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the Coast Guard?

Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard. So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried, it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.

Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.

Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old?

Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old.

Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never seen him?

Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time.

Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you haven't seen Marguerite?

Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that.

Mr. JENNER. 37 years?

Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you?

Mr. PIC. No.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did you?

Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination, which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and her son, and all.

I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, "Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy at all.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald?

Mr. PIC. No; I never met him.

Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is that right?

Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl?

Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time?

Mr. PIC. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment?

Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in the paper.

Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time?

Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother never did tell him about his old man.

Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even know if he knows you are alive, do you?

Mr. PIC. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things?

Mr. PIC. No; you never know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.

Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr. Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was mentioned to me.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you want to waive that?

Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want a lot of publicity or anything, you know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and telling us what you know about it.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN CARRO

The testimony of John Carro was taken on April 16, 1964, at the U.S. Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

John Carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: