Chapter XX: Part 20

So I brought that to his attention and he said, "Well, in all new governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," you know.

I couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they started executing these people on just mere word of mouth.

Batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on there. But that's when I started cooling off, and he started getting more reverent toward Castro, he started thinking higher----

Mr. LIEBELER. More highly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; more highly of Castro than I did, and about a month later I was on leave, and when I came back he was gone. And it must have been a fast processing, because I wasn't gone over 15 days; when I come back he was already gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald stay in the same hut together until he actually got out of the Marines?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get away from Oswald before you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. I did, but it never went through. I was the hut NCO, and all the other huts had NCO's, and if I went into another hut I would be under another guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't want to do that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I had my rank.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you stayed there and remained NCO in charge of the hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but he never got into arguments with me. He liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, Call, and he would argue with him, and Oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. Whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never got mad at anybody?

Mr. DELGADO. Not physically mad, no.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at Santa Ana?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that permission granted?

Mr. DELGADO. I was waiting for it to be granted. I turned it in to the section sergeant, and I never knew what the outcome was. I never found out. They never notified me as to why I wanted to get transferred to the other huts.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never did move from your hut to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually were discharged, from the Marines before this question of your transfer ever came up?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you go into the Marines? You told us before. Let us review that for a moment.

Mr. DELGADO. I went into the Marines November 1, 1956.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were discharged 1 November, approximately----

Mr. DELGADO. 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. 1959; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go on leave prior to your discharge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Terminal leave?

Mr. DELGADO. What?

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave and then come back?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I went on leave and then came back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. About in August, I think--September to October, something like that. A 15-day leave, to go to California. August or September. I think it was in the latter part of the summer. I always take that part to come into New York, but when I came back, Oz was gone.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you go on leave: to California, or did you come back to New York?

Mr. DELGADO. To New York.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI just about this series of events?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that I had gone on leave, and when I came back Oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he defected, I think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents when you went on leave?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I gave them a specific date. I think I told them about August.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you have told them it was June or July?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have told them June or July. I'm not too sure. I know it was the midsummer; because I came into New York in the good weather.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agents that you had actually transferred to another hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are positive of that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; but I told them that Oswald was transferred. The only transfer that occurred was Oswald to my hut, and that I put in for a transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an NCO to be bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. I guess things came up, and about 2 or 3 weeks later I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you came back from leave, Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Prior to my leaving I knew he was putting in for a hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but, like I say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you and Oswald were actually quartered in the same quonset hut up to the time Oswald was discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Up to the time I went on leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when you came back Oswald was gone?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never saw him after that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald say anything to you while you were in the Marines together about going to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never did?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I couldn't understand where he got the money to go.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said before he didn't spend very much money.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least $800 to a $1,000 to travel across Europe, plus the red tape you have to go through.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see this official-looking envelope that you mentioned before with the seal on it? Do you remember when that was?

Mr. DELGADO. Outside of being prior to one of my departures for Los Angeles--the month, you want?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; if you can remember it. I mean, was it----

Mr. DELGADO. It's hard to say, because we were together so long. It was one of the weekends I was going into Los Angeles.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle practice?

Mr. DELGADO. No; It was after, because prior to our rifle practice I don't think we had any political discussions at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Most of those were after the rifle qualifications?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when I say, May to September or May to August, of going on leave, all these incidents, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember how long you were back at Santa Ana after your leave before you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. About 2 months, I guess.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI agents ask you about that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this fellow by the name of Call.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Richard Call?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he was in our company. He was in a different quonset hut.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Semifriendly. I know personally that he used to call Oswald Oswaldovich or Comrade. We all called him Comrade, which is German for friend. We didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. But then he made the statement saying, no, he never called Oswald "Comrade," or anything like that, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who said that?

Mr. DELGADO. Call.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know?

Mr. DELGADO. The FBI agent told me.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just mentioned the term "Oswaldovich"; is that right?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he asked me if anyone had called him Oswaldovich. No. Comrade commissar; yes. We all used to kid around that language. He used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. But Call said he didn't. Well, that's his prerogative. He didn't want to get mixed up in it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you are pretty sure you never heard him call him Oswaldovich?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Private, First Class Wald? Was he in your hut, too?

Mr. DELGADO. He was in our outfit.

Mr. LIEBELER. And was he a friend of Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Just speaking acquaintances. That's all. He didn't have too many close friends.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who didn't?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald. And these guys were all different, like Wald was a good example. He was a sportsman. So was Osborne. He was going strictly for sports. And Call was the closest you would come to Oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Wald and Osborne, they were more interested in sports and that sort of thing?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Sergeant Funk? Did you mention him to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; Sergeant Funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know Oswald. Oswald and him didn't hit it off at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did that come about?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, one instance was when we were all standing formation, waiting for work call. We were off this day. And Call and some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. So it just happens, when Funk came out Oswald was the only one doing it. So they grabbed Oswald and made him march with a full field pack around the football field in the area. And he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that I seen that happen. But it happened when Funk stepped out, Oswald the first one he seen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald complain about Funk after that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had nothing to do with him. Always tried to find fault. The man had a lot of faults. He was very sloppy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who?

Mr. DELGADO. Funk. And he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad leader, in my opinion, because NCO's in the Marine Corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. That's what I remember about Funk. He wasn't there too long.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No. There was one sergeant I was trying to think of, but I couldn't think of his name. I think I gave a name to the FBI agents, Holbrook or--something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a Corporal Botelho?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Botelho. He was from upstate California, a potato rancher.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his relationship with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. The same as the rest of the fellows: Not too close.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever have any arguments with any of these people?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. Quite frequently he had arguments, but Botelho usually would have arguments about, well, Botelho was pretty proud about his car, you know, and Oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make--he had a Chevy, a 1956 Chevy, and one time I walked in on the discussion. I didn't know what it was about. And they were pretty mad at each other. And, as I said, Oswald just took off. But Botelho was a pretty quiet fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Private, First Class Roussel? Do you remember mentioning him to the FBI agents?

Mr. DELGADO. Roussel? Yes. He was a sports enthusiast. A little, short fellow from Louisiana. In fact, I took him home when I got discharged from the Marine Corps.

Mr. LIEBELER. What rank was Call?

Mr. DELGADO. At the time--at the time when Oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. But then later on he got promoted to a sergeant.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was your rank when you were discharged?

Mr. DELGADO. Corporal.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was what?

Mr. DELGADO. Private.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just a straight private?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been promoted?

Mr. DELGADO. No, never. Never. I don't guess he expected it. I knew he was court-martialed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from overseas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear what he was court-martialed for?

Mr. DELGADO. No. After all this came out later, I read about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the silent area?

Mr. DELGADO. That's what I referred to. He put silent area. That's the war room.

Mr. LIEBELER. He, you mean the FBI agent?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is where you actually worked in watching----

Mr. DELGADO. Watching the scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI agent's notes, you and Oswald were passing notes back and forth.

Mr. DELGADO. We worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and I, when we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. So when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You were not permitted to talk during this time?

Mr. DELGADO. The enlisted men.

Mr. LIEBELER. The enlisted men?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at this table. The only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft on their scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your job was to watch one of the scopes?

Mr. DELGADO. Watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the plotting board.

Mr. LIEBELER. So while you were actually watching the scope, you were permitted to speak? You had to talk at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes, to the aircraft.

Mr. LIEBELER. To keep track of the aircraft?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. That's why they didn't want too much noise in there. Just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are two of these FBI reports here that tell me that you told the FBI that Oswald used to go to Los Angeles every 2 weeks.

Mr. DELGADO. I used to go to Los Angeles every other week.

Mr. LIEBELER. But not Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are sure that you told that to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no question about that at all?

Mr. DELGADO. No question about that at all. Otherwise I wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one time. It would have been common to see him in the train station. But it wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember Lieutenant Depadro?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was a first lieutenant. He was from Florida. His parents were boatbuilders. He owned--his family owned a big boatbuilding place in Florida. I couldn't tell the agents what town. I wouldn't remember that. I thought it was a town, I gave them----

Mr. LIEBELER. Who was he?

Mr. DELGADO. He was just a section officer. He worked as a controller, and he was also our platoon officer.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report indicates that you have told Lieutenant Depadro that Oswald was receiving Russian language newspapers; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. He didn't seem to care.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Our sergeant major.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to the FBI agents about Sergeant Lusk?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. I told them that in one instance Sergeant Lusk had the misfortune of waking us up in the morning. Nobody bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away.

Mr. LIEBELER. The men in your quonset hut?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And I'm the one in charge of them, and about 8 o'clock in the morning I hear the door open up, and I see this guy walking into my room. The first thing I wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he says, "I want to see you men in the old man's office, in class A's." So I knew it was a bad step. We went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. And on the way back he said, "You're getting as bad as Oz."

But it wasn't our fault. It wasn't Oswald's fault. He slept away with the rest of us. It was too far for the CQ. And he just didn't feel like walking that far. So I told the agents that I was the only corporal on restriction at the same time.

Mr. LIEBELER. They restricted your barracks for that?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. Well, it's better to be restricted than to be court-martialed for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is. Do you remember discussing extradition treaties with Oswald?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?

Mr. DELGADO. Any crime perpetrated in the States, say somebody was to do something wrong in the United States, and they wanted to get him. We talked about countries he could go to. I said, well, not including Cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and Russia, he could go to Argentina, which I understand is extradition-free. But the other countries all have treaties with the United States. They would get you back.

Mr. LIEBELER. In that discussion what did Oswald say?

Mr. DELGADO. Nothing that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say he would go to Argentina if he ever got in trouble like that?

Mr. DELGADO. If he ever got in trouble; yes. But this is the period of time we are talking about, of taking over the Dominican Republic. And this is what I don't understand: Oswald brought out a fact about a route to take to go to Russia, bypassing all U.S. censorship, like if you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. And he definitely said Mexico to Cuba to Russia, and whether or not I'm bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. But that was the same route. And he told me about the two guys, the same way these two guys defected.

Now, I can't imagine who he meant. I thought he was referring to this later case. But the FBI agent confused me all to heck. He told me it was a year later that these two guys from the United States, working for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same route that Oswald had told me about. I remember him explaining to me, and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing just how you go about doing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald did this?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also defected to Russia at that time?

Mr. DELGADO. The same route; yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But the FBI man said that didn't happen until a year afterwards?

Mr. DELGADO. A year later.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you checked up on this to find out when these men did defect?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. I assume that I may have been interpreting these events and running the two together. But in my estimation I don't think it was possible. I remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he say these two men had gone from the United States into Mexico into Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. He said, "This is the route they took. This is the way I would go about it. This is the way they apparently did it." Something to that effect.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your recollection isn't too clear on that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall that Oswald mentioned that if he were going to go to Russia, that he would go to Mexico and then to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination that Oswald went to Mexico?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that he was in Mexico for a while on vacation or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you read in the newspaper that Oswald had gone to Mexico with the idea in mind of going on to Cuba?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had never read that in the newspaper?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that before now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of him being in Russia, and he went to Mexico on his own. From Texas I think he went to Mexico. And I didn't know him to cross over into Cuba.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, I am not saying that he actually went to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. Or had any----

Mr. LIEBELER. I am saying he went to Mexico with the intention of going to Cuba.

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't read that far.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't read that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there is no chance that you read this later and are confusing this as something that Oswald said before?

Mr. DELGADO. No. This was definitely said then, in 1959, and according to the FBI records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in 1960 or 1961.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you and Oswald ever talk about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. He was--he didn't believe in God. He's a devout atheist. That's the only thing he and I didn't discuss, because he knew I was religious.

Mr. LIEBELER. He knew that you are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are religious?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, to the effect that I believe there is a God or a Maker.

Mr. LIEBELER. You attend church regularly?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; and in one instance he told me that God was a myth or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and things like that. I didn't like that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember anything else that he said about religion?

Mr. DELGADO. No; outside of condemning anything that had to do with religion, you know. He laughed. He used to laugh at Sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on Sundays. He himself never went.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever quote from the Bible or anything like that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever make fun of the Bible?

Mr. DELGADO. No. It was just being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. That's all. Outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. But he didn't quote sections from the Bible just to show how wrong it was?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to the FBI men about this question?

Mr. DELGADO. No. I don't think I did. They asked me about religion, and I told them he was an atheist. That's all.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember telling them that Oswald used to quote from the Bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly?

Mr. DELGADO. No. That was typical of him.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection of him doing that?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of telling the FBI men he did that?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism that you had with Oswald: Did he compare that with the military life?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say about that?

Mr. DELGADO. Well, this is--military life is the closest to the Socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. How did he phrase it--everything was common or something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good thing?

Mr. DELGADO. That's right, for people. If they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning everything, and everybody worked for the state.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald didn't really like the Marine Corps, did he?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could he say that socialism was like the military, and like socialism, and still hate the military?

Mr. DELGADO. He liked the life but hated the military. Some people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. Yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like Sergeant Funk, for instance, to tell them what to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have the feeling that Oswald disliked discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him what to do?

Mr. DELGADO. I would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. He used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all. Just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he thought to be--he thought Funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order. That was beyond his level. That was fact. This man was a complete moron, according to Oswald. Why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? So he had no respect for him. If he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. But if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, he wouldn't like anything you told him to do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember any other discussions about this comparison of socialism with the Marine Corps or the military?

(Short recess.)

(Question read.)

Mr. DELGADO. Well, according to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs along smoothly. But in our government, no one person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. There were a whole bunch of individualists. Some may, some won't, and some would argue about it. That's not the same exact word he used, but that's----

Mr. LIEBELER. He indicated that he thought it was a good thing that somebody should give orders like this and----

Mr. DELGADO. That everybody would obey without question.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had no reason to believe----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. From your association with him that he was intending to do any such thing?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. While he was in the Marine Corps; is that correct?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that he planned to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You thought he was going, as you mentioned before----

Mr. DELGADO. To Switzerland.

Mr. LIEBELER. To school in Switzerland?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the FBI that Oswald accompanied you to Los Angeles as a regular matter?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You just told them he went with you once?

Mr. DELGADO. Once.

Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this discussion of extradition treaties, did Oswald say that he would go to Russia if he ever got into any trouble? Do you remember that?

Mr. DELGADO. He had mentioned Russia as a place of refuge if he ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, I would say, "excluding Russia or Cuba, Argentina would be the next best."

Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't get any impression from him that he intended to go to Russia?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was just a general discussion of extradition treaties?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just general conversation?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Pfc, Roussel----

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Henry R. Roussel, Jr.?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was from New Orleans, right?

Mr. DELGADO. No. Baton Rouge, Louisiana, right outside of LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. Roussel was from Baton Rouge?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember discussing Roussel with the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling them where he was from?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them?

Mr. DELGADO. Baton Rouge. On account of he had taken us to the LSU, you know, university--campus.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is when you were at Biloxi?

Mr. DELGADO. No; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. Roussel was on leave. I was discharged. I took Call--Call was discharged also, and Call and myself and Roussel and another two or three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went down to the South to take Roussel home. And I remember it well, because it was the year Billy Cannon was famous down there at the LSU.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell the FBI that Roussel was from New Orleans?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember this Pfc. Murray? What is his first name?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Don?

Mr. DELGADO. Don.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember him as knowing Spanish to about the same extent that Oswald knew Spanish, or more or less? What is your recollection on that?

Mr. DELGADO. He knew less than Oswald did when Oswald--the last time I seen Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. How would you describe Murray's command of Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. Not too good. In his particular instance it was phrases, you know, that kind of talk.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you weren't as successful in your attempts to teach----

Mr. DELGADO. I didn't have the time. See, when we were in Biloxi, we were both together, going to school there. But we didn't have the time once we got to California. He was living off post. His wife was there, so we didn't have that much time together.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Murray move off post right away, or did he live on the post for a while after he came to----

Mr. DELGADO. He lived about--after I got there, about 2 months, and then his wife--he went to Florida and got married and brought his wife in to California. I would say he moved off post about February of 1959.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did most of the marines call Oswald? Did they call him Lee or----

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald, just by his last name?

Mr. DELGADO. Just Os or Oswald. Very seldom do you find in the military, at least I haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred to another fellow by the first name. It's always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. I didn't even know his name was Lee.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't know that his first name was Lee?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that you, concerning your contact with Murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you questions about Spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real program to teach him Spanish?

Mr. DELGADO. No; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he wanted interpreted, that's it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Charley Brown in your outfit?

Mr. DELGADO. Charley Brown?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. DELGADO. No; that is a name I gave him. I believe it was one of the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, Charley Brown, but I can't recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. That doesn't ring a bell?

Mr. DELGADO. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention the name of Charley Brown to the FBI?

Mr. DELGADO. I may have. We got a Charley Brown in our outfit now.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I may have, may not have mentioned Charley Brown. I gave them the name of who I thought--felt who the one or two colored fellows were, but I couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember what the name was that you told the FBI now?

Mr. DELGADO. No; Walt, Walt--Watts, that is the name I gave him, not Brown.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about Oswald that you think might be of some help to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't like the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. All of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his estimation.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about your estimation, did you think that they were as smart as Oswald was?

Mr. DELGADO. Oswald, I remember, for instance, that Oswald used to get in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The officers?

Mr. DELGADO. Right. And they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and I would say out of the conversation Oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. They just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. And every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. He thought himself quite proficient with current events and politics.

Mr. LIEBELER. He used to enjoy doing this to the others, I could imagine.

Mr. DELGADO. He used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to cut up and make himself come out top dog. That's why whenever he got in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you know, and leave.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else about him?

Mr. DELGADO. He didn't drink. He didn't drink too much. Occasional beer. I never seen him drunk.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual tendencies?

Mr. DELGADO. No; never once. It was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. In fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or did you ever discuss that with him?

Mr. DELGADO. No; I figured this fellow here looked to me like he was studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know what I mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married, or something like that; but the time I knew him he was more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. That is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty serious-minded fellow?

Mr. DELGADO. Yes; he was. Very seldom clowned around, you know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think he had much of a sense of humor?

Mr. DELGADO. No; he didn't appreciate it. You couldn't pull a practical joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. He had only one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a quirk he had. I don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about Oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating].

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced?

Mr. DELGADO. He never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. He controlled himself pretty good.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can't remember anything else about Oswald, I have no more questions. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DANIEL PATRICK POWERS

The testimony of Daniel Patrick Powers was taken on May 1, 1964, at U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Daniel Patrick Powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. This young man is Daniel Patrick Powers. He lives at 401 12th Avenue West, Menomonie, Wis. Did I correctly state those facts?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Powers, I have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, Mr. Rankin's letter--he is general counsel for the Commission--advising you of the creation of the Commission and enclosing the Joint Resolution No. 137, which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission; and President Johnson's Executive Order No. 11130, which did create the Commission; and then the rules and regulations of the Commission itself for the taking of depositions.

And from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the Commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy. We have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event.

One of those persons is a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the Armed Forces of the United States, and I would like to ask you a few questions if I might. You are an ex-service man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you were a member of the Marine Corps?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And your number was 1497089.

Mr. POWERS. 1497089; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the dates of your service, according to our records, are December 18, 1954--that's wrong, or am I right? You entered the Reserves of the Marines in December 18, 1954, and served in active duty in the Marines November 1, 1956 to October 1, 1958?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that all correct?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. I think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment.

Mr. POWERS. At the moment, presently I'm teaching at the Menomonie Public School System in Wisconsin, and I'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And with a family?

Mr. POWERS. Of two children.

Mr. JENNER. Two children. And you're a native-born American?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct.

Mr. JENNER. And where were you born?

Mr. POWERS. I was born in Minneapolis, Minn. Actually, I believe my birth certificate says Minneapolis, Minn.; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And Mrs. Powers?

Mr. POWERS. Was born in St. Paul, Minn.

Mr. JENNER. Now, during your service in the Marines, did you become acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall him now?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. When did you--when did that acquaintance first arise?

Mr. POWERS. To the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when I was en route to Jacksonville--rather from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, Miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge.

Mr. JENNER. Were you the senior marine in charge?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was your rank at that time?

Mr. POWERS. At that time my rank was private first class.

Mr. JENNER. Now, when was that?

Mr. POWERS. I have the travel orders, and if you want them----

Mr. JENNER. Fine. If you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date. I appreciate it.

Mr. POWERS. This would be, 2 May 1957 is on the date of these orders.

Mr. JENNER. May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct. We were authorized to proceed to Shipping and Receiving Station, Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. Check that over again and see if in fact it's the 2d of May 1956.

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry, 2d of May 1957.

Mr. JENNER. 1957?

Mr. POWERS. Yes.

"Effective 3 May 1957, the below listed marines are directed to report to the 3380th Technical Training Group, 3383d Student Squadron, Block 21, Building 17, Shipping and Receiving Section, Keesler Air Force Base, Biloxi, Miss., for duty under instruction, USNAC&W Operators Course No. AB27037, Class 08057, for a period of about 6 weeks. Upon arrival thereat, they will report to the Commanding Officer for duty."

And then it lists six marines with Lee H. Oswald as one of these marines.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now. I'm pleased that you have those orders because an FBI report fixes that time as--in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in June of 1956, and in fact it was May 2, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, sir. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the Naval Air Technical Center at Jacksonville, Fla. I mean previous to this May 2d order.

Mr. POWERS. There is a possibility, sir; that I had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. Now, in recalling Jacksonville, Fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that I was associated with.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. But as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. He also was a private, first class at that time, was he not?

Mr. POWERS. I don't believe he was, sir. I believe he was a private. I'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. Yes; that's correct. He was a private, first class, at that particular time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your group from the Naval Air Technical Center in Jacksonville, Fla., to----

Mr. POWERS. Keesler----

Mr. JENNER. That is spelled K-e-e-s-l-e-r, Keesler Field, in Mississippi, Biloxi?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And who were the others?

Mr. POWERS. There is a Pfc. Edward J. Bandoni.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have his number there?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, I do.

Mr. JENNER. Read it, please.

Mr. POWERS. 1551427. Pfc. James N. Brereton, 1644586; Pfc. Donald P. Camarata, 1632342.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. Would you check that number again as against mine? I had 1653230, am I in error?

Mr. POWERS. You're in error, sir. It's 1632342. The next name that appears is Lee H. Oswald, private, first class, 1653230. And the next name is my name, Powers, Daniel P., 1497089. And the next name that appears is Schrand, Martin E., private, first class, 1639694.

Mr. JENNER. And that is spelled S-c-h-a-r-a-n-d?

Mr. POWERS. A-n-d, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, -r-a-n-d. Or just Schand, is it? Spell it, please.

Mr. POWERS. S-c-h-r-a-n-d.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I want to get that straight because we do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that I want to ask you about.

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir. It did.

Mr. JENNER. Those are all the men. Now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time?

Mr. POWERS. How do you mean "destined"?

Mr. JENNER. Did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from then on were--ran relatively parallel?

Mr. POWERS. Up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. We did attend school there. Then from Mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to El Toro, Calif. Here, while we were at Mississippi, it was parallel. We attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. POWERS. And then once we got to California, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to California and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of California earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different.

I would say that four of the names mentioned previously, Camarata, Oswald, Powers, and Schrand, went to the Far East; Bandoni and Brereton, I'm not sure where they went. I think they went to the east coast, as I recall.

Mr. JENNER. What was your first impression of Oswald when you traveled from Jacksonville, Fla., to Biloxi, and Keesler Field, in Mississippi?

Mr. POWERS. Well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." He was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to Keesler.

I felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. Again, this was just a personal opinion.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is your age?

Mr. POWERS. My age at the moment is 27.

Mr. JENNER. All right. And what is the date of your birth?

Mr. POWERS. July 20, 1936. At that particular time I believe I was----

Mr. JENNER. So you were 3 years older than Oswald. He was born October 18, 1939?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did any incident occur during your travel from the Naval Air Base in Jacksonville to Keesler Field in Biloxi, Miss., with respect to Oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him?

Mr. POWERS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Or was this relatively uneventful?

Mr. POWERS. It was uneventful, you might say. There is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us.

Mr. JENNER. I see. And how many days travel were you given?

Mr. POWERS. I believe it was an overnight travel. So it probably--2 days, May 3 to May 4, is when we actually reported in here; departed Jacksonville, Fla., on 2 May 1957 and arrived in Biloxi, Miss., 4 May. So we reported for duty on that particular day.

Mr. JENNER. So you were then there May 4, 1957?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in Keesler Field.

Mr. POWERS. The nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. His training was completely parallel to mine. It was similar; it was the same in context.

Mr. JENNER. And is that likewise true of these other men?

Mr. POWERS. That's also correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And your assignments from day to day were relatively parallel then?

Mr. POWERS. I would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. We went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. I mean we were brought right along. Some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, I would say exact in the classes that we did attend.

Mr. JENNER. These were in general--this was aircraft control and warning operator course?

Mr. POWERS. That's correct, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices?

Mr. POWERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you awarded the--what is known as the M.O.S., Military Occupation Specialty?

Mr. POWERS. Yes; we were. I believe coming out of--excuse me--coming out of Jacksonville, Fla., we were given a general M.O.S. of 6700, and then after--

Mr. JENNER. Explain what that means to me.

Mr. POWERS. M.O.S. is a Military Occupational Specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and 6700 is aircraft, as I understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim.

And when we did come out of Keesler, then we were added the additional digit of 47 which would make us a ground--I better not say "ground control," radar operator for--as a guess, I would call it an early warning system.

Mr. JENNER. And how long did you boys remain at Keesler?

Mr. POWERS. Exact dates would be from 4 May to 4 June 1957, is when we picked up our orders to go to California.

Mr. JENNER. That's a month from the day?

Mr. POWERS. I'm sorry. It says here, "You will stand transferred June 19, 1957, and you will report to your temporary duty station at 12 July 1957." This is when we were--2400 hours--we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was El Toro, Calif.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. From 19 June to 12 July 1957. This was somewhat blurred here. 16 days delay and 4 days travel by commercial. So it would be--June is 30--it would be 11 and 12, which would be 20----

Mr. JENNER. 16 days. 11 and 12, that would be 23 days.

Mr. POWERS. Yes; so actually it must be 19 days and 4 days travel by commercial carrier. 14 days--rather 19 days' delay.

Mr. JENNER. Did you boys travel out to El Toro?

Mr. POWERS. No; we did not. Most of us went on leave from there to--rather from Mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to California by commercial vehicle.

Mr. JENNER. And were you living in Minneapolis at that time?

Mr. POWERS. No; I was not. My leave address, Rural Route No. 2, Owatonna, Minn. That was my parents' home.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any recollection of Oswald while he was at Keesler? That is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was he a loner while he was at Keesler Field?

Mr. POWERS. I would say yes and no. A "loner" is a real poor term to use.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. POWERS. I think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and I don't say that he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general personality would alienate the group against him.