Chapter XI: Part 11

Mr. JENNER. I think it was a Fort Worth employer, as a matter of fact.

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know--why it seemed to stick in my head that that Leslie Welding was Fort Worth, whether he told me he had worked briefly in Fort Worth or how it got there.

Mr. JENNER. You have no entries in any of those papers to refer to the fact that he had been in Russia and that he returned from Russia with his Russian wife--why is that?

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think that in the kind of job we are in, sir; we never know who is sitting beside us. We are, as I say, a public agency and there is a certain amount of information that is supplied us by the applicant, and ours is not an investigative procedure. There is a certain amount of information that one accepts and works from, and I think that I would not have thought this a pertinent entry on this employment.

He was back in the United States. I would work on the assumption that the Federal Government would know why he was back and had given him permission to be back. Sometimes, with noncitizens, we ask for some kind of an emigration card or a visa and make that kind of an inquiry. This young man came to me, presented as an American citizen, the record indicated that; he had served in our Armed Forces and I guess that I would also add, rightly or wrongly, that in my judgment this could have blocked his getting employment here and if the employer learned it by questioning him when he was an applicant, he would make use of the information as he saw fit.

Basically, I try to assume that the other guy is telling me the truth and unless it is apparent that some things don't stack up, I don't probe and say, "Now, what were you doing between so and so and so," or if there is a big gap which could indicate a prison sentence or hospitalization or what have you, I would probe there. If he has his dates befuddled, I may work with him to help him to recall or suggest to him that maybe some home work--he ought to write all this down so that when he is filling an application form out for work so that he can get it accurate.

As you well know, this is not too cosmopolitan an area, with people with a lot of backgrounds in it, and you see "Oswald" is not again a name that would indicate anything but an American background--the appearance of the American, his speech, and so I just give those two basic reasons.

Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire of him as to whether he spoke Russian with a view in mind possibly of recording that as a job qualification?

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; I did not. If he had been apparently a Russian citizen or of Russian derivation, I could well have done it, as I enter Spanish, or Polish, or German, and I would not think that Russian would be very helpful because all of this background doesn't say--translator--or again any of the rare jobs or professional, does it, and that in our classification is professional work.

Mr. JENNER. I can think of nothing else that has stimulated me to inquire further of you. I appreciate very much your coming over and this has been a helpful interview and at some inconvenience to you, I appreciate. You have been very helpful and very cooperative. Now, you may read your deposition, make any corrections in it you wish, sign it and Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime next week. If you will call Mr. Barefoot Sanders' office and speak with his secretary, she will let you know when it is ready to be read.

Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Let me make a note as to when and where.

Mr. JENNER. All right--she will have it for you, and thank you again very much.

TESTIMONY OF R. L. ADAMS

The testimony of R. L. Adams was taken at 1:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, Assistant Attorney General of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Adams, would you rise and be sworn, please?

Mr. ADAMS. Surely.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in the testimony which you are about to give on deposition that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. ADAMS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the legal staff on the President's Commission, which, as I believe you know, was authorized to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson added to that legislative authority by an Executive Order 11130 appointing the Commission and fixed its powers and duties. In general its duties are directed towards investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.

This has brought us as members of the staff and the Commission itself to inquire into a rather wide range of circumstances, including running down a lot of things that have arisen by way of rumor and otherwise, to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

One of the people towards whom our particular inquiries have been directed is Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have testimony from a host of people who had some contact with him during his lifetime.

The particular assignment of our division, Mr. Liebeler and I and others helping us, is of Mr. Oswald's life from the day he came on this earth until his death on the 24th of November 1963.

If I may ask you some questions--I understand you had some contact with him or in your official capacity in the Texas Employment Commission, you in turn have people under your supervision and direction at least who had contact with him?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. R. L. Adams of the Texas Employment Commission, and is that located at 1025 Elm Street?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you would, would you state your official position with the Texas Employment Commission, please?

Mr. ADAMS. I am employed as a placement interviewer.

Mr. JENNER. And do you have persons under your supervision and direction?

Mr. ADAMS. No; I do not.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what is the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. The Texas Employment Commission is the Texas version of the Federal-State Employment Service. As such, it is operated and jointly federal-state funded, and seeks to assist those people who are unemployed primarily through finding employment for them and in the event that we are unable to do so, to provide them with unemployment compensation for such time as they may be eligible.

Mr. JENNER. I happen to be an Illinoian myself. I practice law in Chicago--it's tied in with the Unemployment Compensation Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And those who had suffered unemployment seek the assistance of the Texas Employment Commission to obtain for them new employment?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How does that operate, do you--do the employers register with you or they call you up--I would like to have you give me a normal operation so that we can compare that background on normalcy against what might have occurred with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. ADAMS. Normally, employers in all categories of business and industry will use many avenues to obtain suitable employees. One of them, hopefully used by most of them, is the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. JENNER. I said to you that my impression from the depositions we have taken is that your commission does have and is held in reasonably high regard by employers and the ones I have interviewed have indicated that they may resort to the commission rather frequently.

Mr. ADAMS. I am delighted to hear it. It is a selling job--this is not your main thing, but because it is a State-Federal organization, it has been subjected to a lot of unpleasant publicity which was formerly known as the Texas Unemployment Commission, which did nothing to enhance it.

I worked on the street for a while calling on businesses and more often than not I ran into people who were very dissatisfied with the commission because of previous poor service, or alleged poor service, and in the time that I have been with the commission, 2 years, I think we have striven to improve the quality of service, both to employers and to applicants and so employers do call us. Some of them have standing orders with us. Some of them use us once and they don't get what they want and that's the last we hear from them, but by the same token we hope that all people unemployed would come to us in the course of their efforts to find jobs. I think many people mistakenly assume that TEC exists to find them jobs. This is not true. TEC exists to help them find jobs and in the course of their job seeking, they, I suspect 75 percent of them, will register with TEC and with other agencies.

Mr. JENNER. Other like agencies or private employment agencies?

Mr. ADAMS. Private agencies and, of course, we have the continuing battle of the public versus private activities.

Mr. JENNER. The scope of employment, that is the work, is of great variety, is it, the jobs that are being served?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; all the way from laborers up through doctors of philosophy in varying fields.

Mr. JENNER. Do you ever seek, for example, let's use a hypothetical day--you mention a doctor of philosophy--let's say he had a Ph. D. in geology, and he came to the commission. You do not have at the moment, let us say, with respect to this hypothetical Ph. D., an inquiry from a prospective employer. Do you mean that the TEC would in that kind of an incident--a man of quite high education, would you seek a position for him by calling possible employers?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; we would do this and we refer to it either as job development or the projection of a highly qualified applicant to selected employers who might be in need of such a man.

Mr. JENNER. When did you become employed by or connected with the TEC, as you call it?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, I retired from the United States Air Force in January of 1960, and attempted to be a salesman for about a year and thereby losing my hat and shirt, and I decided I had misused the talents that I had mastered in the service and returned to Government service.

Mr. JENNER. That was when?

Mr. ADAMS. I joined TEC on March 9, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area?

Mr. ADAMS. No, I am a Chicagoan.

Mr. JENNER. You are--so am I. I think I mentioned that. How old are you?

Mr. ADAMS. I am 47, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when in your position with TEC you had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and give all the circumstances as you now recall, in the chronology that you recall?

Mr. ADAMS. I can't, except that my memory was refreshed by my office manager subsequent to the events of November 22.

Mr. JENNER. Having refreshed your recollection, do you now have a recollection?

Mr. ADAMS. Vaguely.

Mr. JENNER. Well, give us your best recollection--your best present recollection of this event and relate it.

Mr. ADAMS. At the time that I--in September, beginning the second week in September of 1963, I was brought in from employment service representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to gain some experience on a placement desk.

After I had been there, well, when November the 22d rolled around and a couple of months--when this happened, the following Monday morning when I came to work, I said, "I'll bet that boy is in my files."

I went to check and I couldn't find any record of it and the office manager said, "What are you looking for?" And I said, "You know what I am looking for." And he said, "I've found it."

Mr. JENNER. Who is the office manager?

Mr. ADAMS. Mr. A. K. Sayre [spelling] S-a-y-r-e.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still with the TEC?

Mr. ADAMS. He is still the office manager--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, then, is there a lady there by the name of Louise Latham?

Mr. ADAMS. She resigned from the Texas Employment Commission effective yesterday, but she lives in the local area.

Mr. JENNER. That is Mrs. Louise Latham?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he said, "No, you didn't." And I said, "Then my only recollection about him was he was a nonentity, just another applicant who was neither outstanding or, I mean--inadequate."

Mr. JENNER. He made no impression on you?

Mr. ADAMS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of records are kept with respect to job applicants, those who are seeking positions, and they are placed or not placed, what kind of record would I expect to find if I looked?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, there are several--one a Lindex strip is at the receptionist which purportedly has a listing of all of the applicants who are currently registered with our office. Then, for each applicant there are one or more application cards covering a primary code, an occupational code which is that code in which we feel he is best qualified, the additional cards being for secondary codes for other jobs for which he might be qualified for or which he may have performed in the past, so that there would be one or more application cards, a Lindex strip, and the counseling records if the individual had been counseled.

Mr. JENNER. Now, assuming Mrs. Latham assisted Lee Oswald in obtaining a position, a record of some kind--some kind of a recordation of that fact would be made?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, on the application--on the individual's application card, the face gives essential information as to names, address, telephone number, birthdate, height, weight, education, the job code to which he has been assigned, the high school from which he graduated, the college which he attended and/or which he graduated, special skills which he may possess in the use of business machines, and any hobbies which might be job oriented, such as skin diving and things of that sort, and the back side shows the jobs the individual has held, beginning with the most recent and going back to the most significant job he has held.

Inside the folded card, one-half of the upper half is for comments concerning availability of public or private transportation, the minimum salary the individual is willing to accept, any restrictions or qualifications the individual may place on employment.

The other half of the upper portion indicates whether or not the individual has been counseled. It may include pertinent information such as the individual has been under psychiatric care, has a Police record, anything which might be necessary in discussing this individual intelligently with an employer.

The bottom half lists the referrals or attempted referrals of this individual for employment.

Each time an attempt is made to contact the individual, an entry will be made indicating the date when the contact is attempted, the method, that is, whether by telephone, by telephone message or by mail, the date on which he was referred, if he was referred, or if he was not referred, whether he refused the job or whether he was found not qualified; if he was referred, whether or not he was hired; if he was a claimant, whether or not--if he rejected the job--that information was sent to the claims office indicating that he had rejected employment or rejected an offer of employment, anything pertaining to this particular job offer is shown on a given line or lines, as it might be.

Mr. JENNER. And are they now in the possession of TEC, records of that character relating to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know from my own knowledge, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would Mr. Sayre know that?

Mr. ADAMS. It is my belief that these records are in the hands of the FBI or Secret Service, but he would know.

Mr. JENNER. Were photostatic copies made, do you know?

Mr. ADAMS. That, I don't know, sir. Apparently, I did talk to him on the phone several times, because the card indicates that I had done so and I do not recall.

Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall when you were interviewed by Mr. Odum of the FBI on the 27th of November 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At that time you appeared to have a recollection of a telephone call from Oswald on October 8, in response to a message of your own of October 7, 1963. Do you recall that incident?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I couldn't say that I positively do. If the record says I did, I did.

Mr. JENNER. Then, I take it, that a record of the transaction was made?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. If it occurred?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you have no recollection independent of that record?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir--if I might clarify that, sir, by saying that in the case of an applicant with whom one has repeated dealings, whether good or bad, these would stick. Otherwise, one talks to anywhere to 10 to 30 applicants a day, day in and day out, personally and by telephone and with the exception of those applicants with whom I have had extensive dealings either because they are problem cases or because they are really outstanding good applicants, I don't remember that. If confronted by one, I could be able to say, "Yes; I have talked to that man," but otherwise I couldn't.

Mr. JENNER. You apparently indicated to Mr. Odum, a reference on your part on October 8, to Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas, do you recall referring him to the Solid State Electronics Co. on or about the 8th of October 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. I can recall having had that order because it was unusual in the sense that I had not dealt with an order of that type before from a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts who wanted an individual who had had some knowledge of electronics or electronics parts. Presumably, if I referred to--Mr. Oswald, it was because his military or civilian background indicated he had had training in this field.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any more about that incident?

Mr. ADAMS. No; I can't say I do, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the nature of the job was?

Mr. ADAMS. As best I can recall, it was where--it was loosely what we called a parts counterman.

Mr. JENNER. Parts counterman?

Mr. ADAMS. A sales clerk.

Mr. JENNER. A sales clerk?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; in sales.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the salary was?

Mr. ADAMS. It seems to me it was quite good for the Dallas area. I would guess it was in the neighborhood of in excess of $75 a week, it seems.

Mr. JENNER. I take it that that reference was made to Oswald then by telephone rather than his coming into your office?

Mr. ADAMS. My policy as a placement interviewer, sir, is this: If I have once met an applicant and then there is not a long lapse until such time as I have an opening to discuss with him, or on which to refer him, I will refer him by telephone if I think he is otherwise qualified.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his coming into the office the 8th or the 9th of October?

Mr. ADAMS. I couldn't honestly say that I do; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would this registration card have some entry in that respect, if he came in?

Mr. ADAMS. Well, possibly. The policy in our office is that each month an individual should be contacted either by phone or in person. If a person is contacted more than once, either by phone or in person, only the initial date for that month is shown. It is repetitive and takes up a lot of unnecessary space.

Mr. JENNER. Does Burton-Dixie Co. awaken or refresh your recollection in this connection?

Mr. ADAMS. Only to the extent that they are one of the employers with whom I have dealt.

Mr. JENNER. Yes?

Mr. ADAMS. And, in making these referrals, I have found in my short time with the Commission that it is not too wise to be bound entirely by the employer's stated requirements. I can best explain this by saying that as recently as yesterday I referred a young man on an order which I had had for a week and on which I had made prior referrals of individuals who, in my opinion, were at least as well-qualified and certainly made a better appearance and yet this last individual was the man who was hired. So, when I first determined this, I decided that I would not certainly make wholesale referrals without regard to the employer's requirements, but on the other hand, in any case where I thought the individual was such that the employer might see in him something that I did not see, I wouldn't take a chance. I would refer him if I felt he met any or many of the employer's basic requirements.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any incidents of any others in the agency who sought to assist Oswald, of which you have any knowledge?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; subsequent to these incidents, I am aware that other people in the Commission had talked to Mr. Oswald prior to November 22d.

Mr. JENNER. But what you have stated is the extent of your contact with him?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, and am I correct, that he was not employed or hired by the Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas on your reference?

Mr. ADAMS. To the best of my knowledge he was not hired on any of the jobs to which I referred him.

Mr. JENNER. And does the name Trans-Texas stimulate your recollection as to any possible reference?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November, Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy----

Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Roy?

Mr. ADAMS. He is not the station manager, he is the--I really don't know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are called by the airline industry--we call them baggage, cargo handlers, and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out those who met the qualifications.

Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out?

Mr. ADAMS. If the record indicates, he was.

Mr. JENNER. But here again you have no recollection beyond what the record shows?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to salary, for example, as compared with that that you mentioned--you mentioned some kind of a figure, with respect to Solid State Electronics Co?

Mr. ADAMS. I think that the going rate of Trans-Texas then was $210 a month plus overtime.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald report on that reference?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that he did not, and that he became employed by the Texas State Book Depository on the 16th of October 1963?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The incident to which you refer occurred the latter part of October or the first part of November, that is with Trans-Texas?

Mr. ADAMS. As best I recall it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. I would like to talk to Mr. Sayre--what is the telephone number over there?

Mr. ADAMS. It is Riverside 7-2071.

The unfortunate thing about it, as I said, about being a placement interviewer is that unless there is something outstanding about the individual or something appears in the record it is just another applicant.

Mr. JENNER. You interview a good many people every day, day after day, and unless something strikes you out of the ordinary with respect to a particular job applicant or unemployed person, that makes it stand out in your mind, you are unable to sort out or recall specifically?

Mr. ADAMS. Right. I could rattle off the names of half a dozen applicants who are ex-convicts, alcoholics, or either recovered from psychiatric treatment or who are presently undergoing psychiatric treatment, or when I look at their record I see consistent "No hire" or "Failed to accept employment," but these people will stick with me, but if I recall, Mr. Oswald had not been registered too long or, beginning with my contact--my contact with him renewed his relationship with our placement office. In other words, as I try to visualize his card, I don't see a whole card full of entries--just a few up at the top.

Mr. JENNER. There is one card for each job applicant?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; at least.

Mr. JENNER. And if he has been back and forth a couple, of times there might be more than one card?

Mr. ADAMS. If he was coded. For instance, suppose he said, "I have been a truck driver for 2 years." I will say, "Fine, you get an additional code for truck driving," which is a 7 code, and this card, we would either send with him to the industrial office for placing in their files, or we would send it--he might say, "I will accept labor work," and we would say, "Fine, we will send a card up to Forrest Avenue or to Irving," whichever is the closest to where he lives or to Dallas West.

Or, he might say, "I have a degree in Economics," and we would say, "Good, we will give you an "0" code and send it upstairs to the professional office." So, conceivably, depending on the individual, he could have a half a dozen cards.

In addition, if he had been job counseled, they would have a counseling record.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, the employment commission, the Texas Employment Commission, and presumably, the other 49 states, is not in position to do any checking on people. The only way we get any information, derogatory information, is either through the individual's disclosing it voluntarily, or through an employer saying, "I sent this man down for a truth verification test, and he busted it," and then we would say, "Would you mind telling us what the information was, so that we may not use this against the individual and try to find out what his problem is and see if we can't help him with it." He might say, "No; I don't care to do that," and then we would say, "Does it involve felony or is it a matter of personality, or what?" And they might say, "There is something odd about his personality," and we would say, "Thank you."

This is the only way we get any information and, of course, it sometimes backfires unfortunately. Employers will assume mistakenly that anybody we send is as pure as the driven snow, and they may or may not be.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think of anything else at this time that might be helpful to the Commission in this connection--what I am anxious to get is the history of this man at the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; I believe Mrs. Helen Cunningham counseled him. I believed she counseled Mr. Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Commission?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes. Mr. Sayre is also her boss.

Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can get both of them over here this afternoon and take their deposition.

Mr. ADAMS. It is my personal opinion that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald is more to be pitied than censored, because if she had only taken the kid to the psychiatrist when they asked her to--of course, this might still have happened, but then again it might not.

Mr. JENNER. And, of course, in a situation like this, Mr. Adams, there are all kinds of "ifs": if somebody had done this, if only this had been done.

Mr. ADAMS. Well, even the little contact that I had with him, I thought--was there something there I should have noticed and if I start letting this get on my back, I will start examining every applicant who comes in--he may be a potential fiend, "I'll have to watch you," and pretty soon I'll be talking to myself.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are always subject to the accusation of being a meddler. It is pretty hard to say just where the scope of your probing should go--a reasonable amount of probing should go and where you have to hold down the gate.

Mr. ADAMS. The first I knew about it was when it came out in the paper that he had been a claimant.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; for unemployment compensation?

Mr. ADAMS. Right, from this district or Fort Worth, I don't know which one exactly.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have an office over in Fort Worth?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have an office similar to this one, that is, that aids persons to obtain employment?

Mr. ADAMS. Yes; the State is divided into districts. The Dallas district is unique in that it encompasses only Dallas County. Out in West Texas, I guess, the districts encompass maybe 20 or 30 counties.

Mr. JENNER. But Fort Worth's district--who is the general manager there?

Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir. I have heard his name, but I can't recall it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the telephone number?

Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I sure don't. Whenever we have dealings with them at my level it is simply paperwork. You send a notice to them that we have these jobs available and employers ask us to start signing out from Dallas to find--to try to find someone, we'll say, in a 50-mile radius, or in a 100-mile radius, as the case may be--it's all done by paper, you see. I'm sure Mr. Sayre would know the people to contact with them.

Whenever we do uncover any derogatory information, well, anything which leads us to believe that the applicant is not--does not appear to be the type of person that we should refer, we have no way--we are precluded from making any written comment. I would just say, "See Adams before it is turned over."

Mr. JENNER. And that means if an occasion arises to refer this man or he makes an inquiry subsequently, then anybody reading the card realizes that there might be something derogatory or at least something special, and they should come to you and talk to you about it?

Mr. ADAMS. That's right; for instance, an employer will report that he thinks an individual is a sex deviate or something of that sort. Now, in the naivete of the Texas Employment Commission, I have made an entry, "Employer reports that this individual appears to have undesirable traits of character," and they say, "Oh, you can't put that in."

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(At this point Counsel Jenner conversed by telephone to Mr. Sayre of the Texas Employment office.)

Mr. JENNER. He said he turned over those records to the district office and he is going to run them down for me this afternoon and call me back.

Mr. ADAMS. I remember reading the paper that on account of his having applied for unemployment compensation, he made a trip to Corpus and then to Mexico and came back--it was none of my business and I never did pursue it with the Commission, but if he had nothing to draw on, he would certainly have applied for his unemployment compensation and it would have been recorded, whether here, Corpus Christi, or Fort Worth or where--the Lord only knows--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. That's all that occurs to me, sir, and I appreciate your coming in and your help.

Mr. ADAMS. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you people think you are not more helpful, to use your expression, when, as a fact you are.

Mr. ADAMS. I hope so.

Mr. JENNER. It's hard to tell from your vantage point whether you are or aren't, but the fact you appear here and tell us what you know is always helpful. I appreciate it very much.

Mr. ADAMS. I know it is like the intelligence business in the service, you take all the little pieces and piece them together, and you make a picture.

Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition and to sign it, if you see fit, and you also have the right to waive that privilege if you wish.

Mr. ADAMS. I would like to see it and I will sign it.

Mr. JENNER. We will have it ready toward the end of this week or early next week, and if you will call the U.S. attorney, Barefoot Sanders, he will know whether it is ready for you to read and sign. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. ADAMS. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF DONALD E. BROOKS

The testimony of Donald E. Brooks was taken at 2 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. David W. Belin, Albert B. Jenner, Jr., and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, Mr. Brooks. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. BROOKS. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Brooks, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission.

The Warren Commission was appointed pursuant to Joint Resolution 137, which authorizes the Commission to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, on November 22, 1963, and then President Johnson, pursuant to that resolution and Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and outlined its powers and duties and authorities.

We have a legal staff authorized by the Commission to come here, and other places in the nation, and make inquiry of persons who had some direct connection, or indirect, or whatnot, with the events, and also those who did, or might have had, some contact with one Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the performance of their official duties or otherwise, which we think might be relevant or pertinent to the inquiry we are making. It is my understanding that you had such a contact. Do you reside here in Dallas?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your address?

Mr. BROOKS. 2836 Dyer.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native Texan?

Mr. BROOKS. No; I was born in Wichita, Kans.

Mr. JENNER. You came here when?

Mr. BROOKS. When I was about 4 years old.

Mr. JENNER. But since, you have been a resident in and about Dallas?

Mr. BROOKS. I have been a resident of Dallas since 1935.

Mr. JENNER. You are a married man?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I am.

Mr. JENNER. Have a family?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; I have two children.

Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation, profession, and with whom are you associated?

Mr. BROOKS. Associated with the Texas Employment Commission, and I am an employment counselor.

Mr. JENNER. Employment counselor?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you held that position?

Mr. BROOKS. About a year. It will be 2 years in July, actually, in this position.

Mr. JENNER. So you became one in July of 1962?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the Dallas office?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I have been in the Dallas office.

Mr. JENNER. Do you function in any particular division of the Dallas office of the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; counseling department in the industrial office.

Mr. JENNER. In the industrial office?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now there are counseling departments, are there not, and divisions or offices other than the industrial?

Mr. BROOKS. There are people assigned to be employment counselors in the other offices.

Mr. JENNER. In the course of that employment, did the occasion arise in which you met officially a man by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; he was referred to me by the placement division.

Mr. JENNER. Now give us the circumstances, first, so that someone reading the transcript will be able to comprehend the circumstances under which this young man was referred to you.

Mr. BROOKS. As I remember it, he was referred to me because he had shown reluctance to accept employment in the industrial field, and therefore, this is one of the reasons they send a man to the counseling division, and this is how he came to me.

Mr. JENNER. Came to your division?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I take it then that the Texas Employment Commission--let's use a hypothetical now at the moment: Assume there has been an applicant for employment. There appear to be positions open in the industrial field. The applicant indicates some reluctance to accept, to seek, at least, employment in the industrial field, but mentions preference for some other field. The fact that there is a reference to you does not necessarily mean, does it, that the applicant is one who is inclined to "gold brick" and is not really looking for a job?

Mr. BROOKS. Nothing in conference like that.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what the industrial field is?

Mr. BROOKS. The industrial field, of course, is primarily jobs with factories, actually. That includes skilled and semiskilled jobs, and also in our industrial office, truck driving and service station work is also included in this field. But primarily it is an office where the factory employer calls in for factory laborers, whether they be skilled or unskilled.

Mr. JENNER. All right, now, yesterday Mr. Adams, Mr. Statman, and Mrs. Cunningham provided some records from the Texas Employment Commission, and I notice that on one of them appears your name, Don Brooks, and that is what is referred to generally as an applicant card.

Mr. BROOKS. E-13.

Mr. JENNER. E-13 (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), and that the other witnesses generally refer to that as an E-13 card?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you please examine that E-13 card, particularly the inside face which bears your signature. By the way, does that bear your signature?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; that is my signature.

Mr. JENNER. It says interviewer. Where it says interviewer, there is a signature on the card opposite the word interviewer, and that signature in longhand is Don Brooks, and that is the witness' signature. There appears below that signature, the word "Cunningham." She was in yesterday. That is a fellow counselor, also?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; in the clerical and professional office.

Mr. JENNER. Professional and clerical?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Can you explain to us the coincidence of each of you having signed that form?

Mr. BROOKS. Probably because this card was transferred over to the other office, actually.

Mr. JENNER. From your office back over to Mrs. Cunningham?

Mr. BROOKS. And she signed below because--I wouldn't swear to this but evidently she made some more comments in here.

Mr. JENNER. When an interview is held, do you interviewers make notations on this card?

Mr. BROOKS. What sort of notations?

Mr. JENNER. The sort of notations that appear on the card now?

Mr. BROOKS. Sure. We give applicant's characteristics usually, and then if there is any special information, we put it in on condition that it might affect employment.

Mr. JENNER. Is any of that writing that appears above your signature yours?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I can't see any of my writing.

Mr. JENNER. Now examine--examining the bottom half of that application (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), is there any writing of yours on it?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I don't recognize any of my writing on this at all in this section, where we send them out on the job. This is where usually the placement interviewer sends them on.

Mr. JENNER. You are not a placement interviewer?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are a counselor. So that on the inside of the card when folded, there is nothing in your handwriting on that card other than your signature, is that correct?

Mr. BROOKS. That is all I see, sir. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you turn the exhibit over. Would that be the top portion when folded that you are now looking at?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is the face.

Mr. JENNER. Now on the face, which is the bottom half of the exhibit, is there any handwriting of yours?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; I see some. Looks like up in the left corner: I see high school, 8 years in the area. Service dates also. Also a date over here, 10-9-62.

Mr. JENNER. 10-9-62?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What does that indicate?

Mr. BROOKS. That means that he was in on that date, October 9, 1962.

Mr. JENNER. And that you interviewed him?

Mr. BROOKS. Me; yes.

Mr. JENNER. These notations that you have now identified, was that information he furnished you on that occasion?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this is usually the primary interview. First day, actually.

Mr. JENNER. Now does this refresh your recollection as to what occurred after the interview of October 9, as to whether you had further contact with him, for example?

Mr. BROOKS. This evidently--I wouldn't want to swear to this.

Mr. JENNER. You aren't certain? Go ahead, but you say you aren't certain?

Mr. BROOKS. I know that he was referred to me, and that is all. I was the one that changed his occupation code.

Mr. JENNER. Would you explain that?

Mr. BROOKS. We assign an occupational code to our applicants, and these occupational codes refer to specific work, whether it is a trainee job or a semiskilled job or skilled job. And he had a previous code, I don't know what it is now, but this 1-X4.9.

Mr. JENNER. Now that is written in whose handwriting?

Mr. BROOKS. That is not my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That looks like Mrs. Cunningham's. I think I can tell you that is Mrs. Cunningham's writing. That was an assignment of code made by whom?

Mr. BROOKS. I don't recognize her number. It was made by someone else other than me, actually. I had thought I gave him a code number but that is not my handwriting there. I am not sure about what code, I know I put him in the other office, which was our clerical.

Mr. JENNER. After interviewing him you determined he should be classified in the clerical?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir; because he was interested.

Mr. JENNER. And not classified in the industrial division?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; this was because of interests, primarily?

Mr. JENNER. Whose interests, his?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; his interests.

Mr. JENNER. Did you determine his interests after you had examined him and your judgment as to where best he might be able to obtain employment, having in mind those interests?

Mr. BROOKS. Was not in the industrial office; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express an aversion to factory work?

Mr. BROOKS. I can't tell you the words, but I got this general impression, as far as I remember; yes, sir; and he did not want to do factory work. Of course, we try to place an individual where he wants--will be exposed to his job.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of who put on that same side of the folded card, the face, "Lee Oswald, 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex."?

Mr. BROOKS. Right here, this Lee Oswald is, as far as I can tell, my handwriting, his name. 2515 West Fifth Street is someone else's handwriting. Just like Irving, Tex. Blackburn 3-1628 is somebody else's handwriting. 433-54-3937.

Mr. JENNER. That is the social security number?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; as far as I can determine. This carbon makes it a little difficult. And the service date, and this where it says none, referring to driver's license. And car, no. Those two are my handwriting, I am sure.

Mr. JENNER. Could I stop you there. The word "none," opposite or to the left of the word, "license," before which there also appears a square, directing your attention to that, is that "none," in your handwriting?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What does that signify?

Mr. BROOKS. That he didn't have a driver's license.

Mr. JENNER. That he didn't have a driver's license?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a square that you make normally?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. This is of importance especially in the industrial office because a lot of times a person working in a factory office might be required to sub in as perhaps a driver of machinery, and we always ask--pay attention to this, not because of Texas, but because of commercial operator's license.

Mr. JENNER. Let me inquire of you a little further on that. Does your inquiry go beyond asking whether he has a driver's license? That is, do you go on and ask whether he is able to operate a motor vehicle?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. Well, not necessarily. I mean, if he doesn't have a driver's license, he is not supposed to be driving, actually.

Mr. JENNER. But he could get one the next day, couldn't he?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. Sometimes I have gone further and asked, are you able to drive a car. I have done this on occasion.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of whether you did that on this occasion?

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I might have and I might not have. I wouldn't want to swear that I did either one.

Mr. JENNER. But your entry does indicate for certain that he did not have a driver's license, and you made inquiry on that subject?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go on. Maybe there is something else that you have written there to stimulate me to ask you something.

Mr. BROOKS. We have not covered my handwriting. Unfortunately, my handwriting is pretty easy to see. I write big. Now this--I am on the back of the card now. Now this Leslie Welding Co. in Dallas, 4 months, 10-62, $1.25 an hour, sheet metal worker, mild ventilators, is in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Is that something he told you?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, was this form E-13, made up in your office or made up in some other office?

Mr. BROOKS. The original must have been made up in my office. That is usually the procedure, actually.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether you made inquiry of the Fort Worth office as to whether they had what you call this ATB?

Mr. BROOKS. This is something--oh, you mean, test records?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. BROOKS. No, sir; I didn't, I am sure of this. The other office, Mrs. Cunningham, might have, but I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have a Mrs. Louise Latham?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes. She works for the commission. She works in C&S. I am not too familiar. I believe she is a placement interviewer.

Mr. JENNER. I notice on the bottom below your signature the last two lines appear the initials RLA. Is that probably Mr. Adams, the RLA?

Mr. BROOKS. It might be and might not be. I am not too familiar with the person. I know who is over there.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about this young man?

Mr. BROOKS. No; I wouldn't want to say. The only thing I recall vaguely now--at the time when I was asked, I was surprised that I had taken his application. I had not remembered it at the time, actually. I had vaguely remembered the name Oswald, but then--when I saw about it, I remembered that vaguely he was somebody referred to me from the placement, actually, and he didn't want, evidently did not want industrial work and he had an interest in clerical, and I gave him a clerical code, although the code number is not in my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. It is the classification you gave him?

Mr. BROOKS. I think that is the one I gave him. I am not certain, but I think that is the one I gave him; yes. I mean, to say anything further, I would have to perhaps look in the E-41.

Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting are the entries appearing on the back of the card in the squares relating to summary of other work experience. Shoe salesman, 4 months, New Orleans, La. General office work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961.

Mr. BROOKS. This is my handwriting. Shoe salesman, 4 months, Louisiana, central office. General--excuse me, 1 year, New Orleans, 1961. That is my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. Did he supply that information?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; probably on the initial interview.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall conversing with him or going back into his history when he was in the service or was married and where he had been?

Mr. BROOKS. I would not want to say if I did. I usually do. But, of course, I inquired evidently about the service or I have--I wouldn't have put the service date.

Mr. JENNER. Those service dates, where are they?

Mr. BROOKS. They are on the front of the card here; right here.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes. Under the heading "Entry on Active Service," October 23, 1956. "Released from Active Service," September 11, 1959.

But you do recall, or you wouldn't have made the entry "General office work, 1 year, New Orleans, La., 1961"?

Mr. BROOKS. That is my handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. That was made in the usual regular course of your business and in having an interview with this man?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is right. I put those dates there.

Mr. JENNER. The back of the card, which is Exhibit E-13 (Cunningham Exhibit No. 1), when we look at that address, that is, Lee Oswald, 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., that appears to have been written over something that had been erased first.

Mr. BROOKS. This is probably due to the fact that he probably moved.

Mr. JENNER. Moved?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir. We have to keep, we try to keep up our address dates as current as possible, because if we don't, there was no way to get in contact with the applicant.

Mr. JENNER. I see another entry of 10-9-62, and then Mrs. Cunningham of 10-10-62, and then an entry or series of entries in October 1963.

Would I be correct in supposing that when you interviewed him on the 9th of October 1962, and put in whatever address he had at that time, and then later on in October 1963, when he was again interviewed, he had a new address, and the old address was erased and the new address put in?

Mr. BROOKS. Yes; that is the way it usually happens.

Mr. JENNER. I will have to get the original to bring out that latent address. Mr. Brooks, you have been very helpful to us.

Mr. BROOKS. I wish I could remember more, actually.

Mr. JENNER. You have added to our fund of knowledge, so don't you be regretful. There are one or two things here that neither Mr. Statman nor Mr. Adams nor Mrs. Cunningham could enlighten us about and you have done so, so you have been helpful and I appreciate it.

I know you are anxious to be more helpful as we all are, but all we can do is get the basic facts.

Mr. BROOKS. I want to be certain if I say something. But I wish I could remember more about the applicant Oswald, himself, but it is hard to do, actually.

I was surprised actually at the time, of course, when they had told me I had taken his application. Actually, I didn't remember it at the time, but I thought about it.

And the Marine Corps probably brought in back a little, and like everyone else, I read the papers a lot.

But I can't remember anything specific about him, just general things.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, Mr. Brooks, you have a right to read over your deposition if you so desire. And you have a right to sign it if you so desire. And you also have a right to waive that if you wish. It is your choice, one way or the other. If you desire to read it and sign it----