Chapter XXVIII: Part 28

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow that you think was Oswald come or go from the range or did you just see him there then?

Mr. PRICE. I just saw him there. I just saw him there a couple of times.

Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of times that day?

Mr. PRICE. No; two separate times, I believe, that Oswald was present at the range both times that he was, as I remember, but I don't know whether they were there together or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. We are getting our wires crossed--you're talking now about the fellow with the beard?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You meant that he was there on the range a couple of different times?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he was there both times that I saw Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you saw Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. That I saw Oswald; yes. The second and third time.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you never saw them come and go together?

Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to who came--whether they came and left together or how they got there, but just that one particular time--he was the only one there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never noticed how Oswald came to the rifle range and left the range?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Except that first time you saw him?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anything else happen with relation to this fellow that you think was Oswald on this third time that you saw him there at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. No; it was just a conversation about the telescope is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle closely that day--you must have handled it in looking through the scope?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; I handled it--it was a Mauser-type rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean by that--I don't know anything about rifles?

Mr. PRICE. Well, it's strictly a military rifle and it's patterned after the German Mauser.

Mr. LIEBELER. A bolt-action rifle?

Mr. PRICE. A bolt action, and the general outline it had--about oh, possibly a six shot clip that set just ahead of the trigger, and I understand it was a 6.5 Italian, but at that time I didn't know. I thought it was a Mauser because there's a friend of mine in Grand Prairie that has an Argentine Mauser that was 7.6 and it looked very familiar--they looked a whole lot alike.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to look at any of the writing or printing that was stamped on the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, the only thing that I could see on it--I looked for a brand name so I could see approximately where it was made, and the only thing that I could find on it was a serial number.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look closely for a brand name?

Mr. PRICE. I didn't examine it too close.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number?

Mr. PRICE. I saw the serial number and the gun wasn't blued at the time--it had a bright finish on the barrel. It looked like it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, as far as--well, in an attempt to sporterize the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been worked on in some manner in an attempt to sporterize it?

Mr. PRICE. I thought it had.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far did the barrel protrude from the stock of the rifle, how far did it stick out from the end of the stock?

Mr. PRICE. Possibly 6 or 8 inches at the most.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the stock been cut back in this attempt to sporterize the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I could tell--it was similar to a German Mauser and they have, you know, they have got a full length, almost a full length stock with a wooden piece on the top of them also.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the wooden piece on top was still on this rifle--which you did see?

Mr. PRICE. No; I don't believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It had been taken off as part of the attempt to sporterize the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Had the end of the barrel been cut off?

Mr. PRICE. I don't know whether it had been cut off or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say the barrel had a shiny finish?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it did at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you two pictures that have been previously marked "Exhibits 3 and 4" on the deposition of Mr. Greener and ask you if you recognize that as the rifle that this man had at the range?

Mr. PRICE. [Examining instruments referred to.] Except for the sling and the forepiece--I would say they are the same gun. The gun had no sling on it. It did have the mounts on the side for a sling.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't have a sling on it?

Mr. PRICE. It didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you mean when you say the forepiece?

Mr. PRICE. The forepiece is this top wooden piece; of course, that could be taken off and replaced very easily.

Mr. LIEBELER. The wooden piece that is on top of the barrel, is that what you are referring to?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that that was not on the rifle that you saw?

Mr. PRICE. No; it wasn't. This barrel has a step along in here somewhere.

Mr. LIEBELER. A step?

Mr. PRICE. A step along in here building it up to a larger diameter and another one here, which you can see.

Mr. LIEBELER. It gets larger by degrees as it comes back toward the action, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. That's right, and that's the reason I thought at the time that it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, but I'm not too familiar with the foreign made guns and I have learned since then that all Mauser rifles are that type--they are made that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. With these steps as they come back toward the action?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same kind of scope that you saw on the rifle that Oswald had, the fellow you thought was Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; it had large receivers at both ends and I believe, now, I might not be right about the brand name, but I believe it was a Tascosa, since I examined it--it was a Japanese made scope. They make several different brands of those things--it could be any of them, but I believe, as I remember it--it was a Tascosa.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, if you took the sling off this rifle and took the top wooden piece off the barrel, you think it would look pretty much like the one that this fellow had?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you testified before that when you examined this rifle, you looked for the brand name and you weren't able to find a brand name?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did see the serial number?

Mr. PRICE. The serial number was--it was in here, in here, or in here--I believe it was right along in here.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are referring to the fore part of the action or the part of the rifle just before the action and immediately under the front edge of the scope, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; the largest diameter of the barrel. The clip is here.

Mr. LIEBELER. It fits in just in front of the trigger?

Mr. PRICE. It fits in just in front of the trigger there.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will hand you some pictures and see if you can recognize any of the people in them as the man you saw at the rifle range--these have been previously marked "Commission Exhibits Nos. 451 and 453 through 456."

Mr. PRICE. [Examining documents referred to.] Yes; this is the only one that has any similarity I can recall.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to No. 455--does that look like him?

Mr. PRICE. Well, these all seem like a photograph of the same fellow, but this is the only one that has any resemblance, as I can remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, I show you another picture--it is a photograph of a street scene with several people in it and I show you two different pictures and ask you if you notice anybody in there as being the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; this one here and this one here--he has a part of the receding hairline on the right side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. PRICE. This one--right here--he's got a long--kind of a sharp nose.

Mr. LIEBELER. The pictures that I have just showed you do not have any marks on them, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you two other pictures which are the same as the pictures I just showed you except that they have some green marks on them.

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first picture I showed you--you have indicated on it that you recognized the man who has a green mark over his head.

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the identical picture which has been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B," and that is the man that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Right.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the second picture I showed you, you identified as the man you saw at the rifle range--the man who has a green "X" over him?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that picture has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A." I'll show you a picture that has been marked as "Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C," and ask you if you recognize that as the man you saw on the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any questions about it at all?

Mr. PRICE. About that picture?

Mr. LIEBELER. Whether that's the fellow?

Mr. PRICE. Other than the scar or cut on his head, because he didn't have a cut on his head at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this fellow you saw was Lee Oswald, did you ever know his name?

Mr. PRICE. No; I never knew his name.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact it was Oswald--when did you first think that it was Oswald?

Mr. PRICE. When I saw him on television when they were transferring him from the Dallas jail.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you recognize him right away as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; and I contacted the FBI the next day. I debated on it all night whether I should call them or get mixed up with it or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention it to anyone else, when you saw him on television?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; my family.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about it with anyone else before you told the FBI?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you talk with at the FBI, do you remember?

Mr. PRICE. Charlie Brown.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's see if we can establish the date of the last time that you saw this man at the rifle range. Do you recall that the President was assassinated on Friday, November 22? Can you tell us approximately how long prior to the assassination this time was that you saw the man?

Mr. PRICE. The last time I saw him was a week before Thanksgiving; Sunday before.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before Thanksgiving--that's the last time you saw him at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. That's the last time that I was down at the rifle range--the last time I went there until after, oh, a month or so after the assassination.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean it was the Sunday immediately preceding Thanksgiving?

Mr. PRICE. That's right; I was down there for the turkey shoot we had.

Mr. LIEBELER. You saw him at the rifle range that day?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the last Sunday before Thanksgiving was after the assassination.

Mr. PRICE. It was after?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and you saw this man at the rifle range, you saw Oswald at the rifle range after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. I believe I did, because that was the last time that I went down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the time you saw him the last time and looked through the scope was the last time you were down at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the last day I was down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say it was the Sunday preceding Thanksgiving, are you sure about that?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I'm not exactly positive but it was getting close to Thanksgiving because I was trying to get a turkey.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether you saw him after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not sure one way or the other?

Mr. PRICE. I know I haven't seen him after the assassination, but it was before this assassination--I was down there the last time and I was thinking it was a week before Thanksgiving, but anyhow, it was before the assassination, the Sunday before, but they were holding a turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Sunday before the assassination would have been the 17th--that would have been two Sundays before Thanksgiving.

Mr. PRICE. Well, it might be right--that's been so long ago--I'm not sure about the dates, I don't remember dates too well.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you were pretty clear in your mind you didn't see Oswald after the assassination?

Mr. PRICE. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since. I have been down there quite often since December.

Mr. LIEBELER. Down at the rifle range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And business at the rifle range has fallen off since the assassination, rather sharply, hasn't it?

Mr. PRICE. Well, for a while it continued, but it has fallen off very sharply in the last, oh, in the last month and a half except for Sundays--they do have good business on Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you any pictures of anybody and ask you to identify them when they talked to you?

Mr. PRICE. It was the FBI or Secret Service, one of the two, I believe it was the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you any of the pictures that we have shown you this morning?

Mr. PRICE. They have shown one similar--they had three or four photos showing this bruise and cut on the forehead.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they show you a picture of the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. I believe the Secret Service showed me a picture of the rifle. I told them the same thing--it wasn't made up exactly the same--it didn't have the sling, it didn't have the forepiece, like there had been an attempt to sporterize the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw this man at the rifle range--do you remember if there was anybody else there that you know?

Mr. PRICE. Garland Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you saw Mr. Slack?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Anybody else?

Mr. PRICE. Well, there was this big fellow--I don't know who he is.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. No; I haven't. I understand that Mr. Davis saw him one time because he called me and told me that he saw him, about 2 weeks ago, and he turned the license number of the car over to the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, have never seen him since?

Mr. PRICE. I have never seen him since.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else that last day at the rifle range that saw this man that might be able to identify him other than Mr. Slack and Mr. Davis?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I know of. There was a lot of people there--there were 300 or 400 people there. There could be any number of them that could identify him, but I don't know them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything about this subject that I haven't asked you about that you think I should have asked you about--anything you would like to add?

Mr. PRICE. No; a conversation I had with him about the telescope--I forgot that. I forgot to mention that--to Mr. Brown when he was out, and I don't know whether I mentioned that to the Secret Service agent or not. It will be in his report if I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. The conversation about the clarity of the scope?

Mr. PRICE. Yes. He wasn't--he didn't seem to be too talkative to anyone other than when he was talking about the telescope--he seemed rather proud of that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever see him talk to this big fellow other than talk to him about this telescope on this time you have told us about?

Mr. PRICE. Well, not that I particular remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression as to whether they were together or not?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell one way or the other?

Mr. PRICE. No; I didn't pay any attention to it. There was--I just thought of it--there was a doctor and his son there at the same time and they were firing a .308 caliber Winchester, I believe--it was either a Winchester or a Remington and anyhow, they had identical guns and they were sharpening up for, I believe, they said they were going to Canada and they were there at the same time.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was the Sunday, the last time you saw him?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names--do you know what their names are?

Mr. PRICE. No; I don't--I don't know their names--I have heard it but I don't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember it if I mentioned it to you?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I might.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the doctor's name--Dr. Wood?

Mr. PRICE. That don't sound like it--there was a doctor there and his son--I know they were father and son.

Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was the son?

Mr. PRICE. He was in his early twenties, I believe.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did they talk to this fellow about the telescope?

Mr. PRICE. I don't remember whether they had any conversation with him or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you mention that?

Mr. PRICE. It's just the fact that they were there at the same time and I know they were talking to Garland Slack and there is a possibility that they either observed or talked to Oswald, because he was sitting next to Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have nothing else that you want to add--I don't think of any more questions. I want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have and it has been considerable cooperation because you got very short notice and you came very early this morning, and we appreciate this and we want you to know that the Commission appreciates this very much. Thank you.

Mr. PRICE. Well, I try to help all I can. I don't remember dates too well--it's been quite some time. I can remember faces but I can't remember names and dates worth a hoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we sure appreciate your coming down.

Mr. DAVIS. Thanks again--we appreciate your coming down.

Mr. PRICE. You bet.

TESTIMONY OF GARLAND GLENWILL SLACK

The testimony of Garland Glenwill Slack was taken at 8:30 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up for just a moment, Mr. Slack. Will you raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SLACK. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated, sir.

Mr. Slack, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony and the testimony of other witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the joint resolution and the Executive order and a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses.

Actually, Mr. Slack, you are entitled to 3 days' notice before you would be required to come and testify, and I realize we didn't give you that much notice but you are also entitled to waive the notice, and I assume that you will do so since you are here, and I assume that you are perfectly willing to go ahead, is that correct?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you today about the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome gun range sometime in the month of November 1963. Before we get into that, however, I would like you to state your full name for the record, if you would?

Mr. SLACK. Garland Glenwill Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you work, sir?

Mr. SLACK. I work for myself. Heating contractors and real estate development.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. SLACK. 3130 DeLee Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many people do you have working with you?

Mr. SLACK. Just my wife and I now. We are on a semiretired basis. We were in the water business and we sold out our water business to the city of Dallas in June, and we are on a semiretired basis.

Mr. LIEBELER. In June of 1963?

Mr. SLACK. That's right; this last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Fifty-nine. No; I am 58. I will be 59, the 9th of May.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. SLACK. Two.

Mr. LIEBELER. They live here in Dallas?

Mr. SLACK. No. Johnny Glenwill is a mechanical engineer. He is working on a Government project in Richmond. Ind., and Marylyn Slack, she is the wife of an Air Force man, Vernon Stone, stationed at Burke Burnett. I have six grandkids. Our profession, we are in the real estate business. We just sell what we own. We own half a million dollars worth of property on the--on Military Parkway, and the heating business, we only do what people can force us to do, our old friends' jobs that we had put in 30 years ago. And we are on an area selling off all our land around us. We subdivide and sell off 10 or 12 lots, and when we get that finished, we subdivide another tract.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Sports Drome gun range, Mr. Slack?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; quite familiar with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the man who owns it or runs it?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; and I knew the man before he even took it over, the manager of the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You knew Mr. Davis before he took it over?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; he ran a ditching machine and dug water ditches for the water works. I didn't know that until after we got real well acquainted, and I knew I had seen him, but I never could figure out until "Doc" Carter and Charlie Brown, they knew my full name and found out where I worked and who I was, and I said I knew him but where, I didn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you out at the rifle range at any time in November of 1963?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; we were there the Saturday before Armistice Day. We marked it on our calendar. That was November the 9th. We were out there late in the evening and there were not very many people there, because we got there in the really closing time. But we didn't even shoot the rifle because they wanted the people to go home. But we went back Sunday for this turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the date?

Mr. SLACK. Now that was the 10th.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went back to the rifle range the immediately following Sunday, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. That is right, the 10th. Oswald was there the 10th. He was there the 17th. The 10th was the turkey shoot. And I contacted him three or four times trying to get him to pay a dollar and get in the turkey shoot. Ten men were paying a dollar a shoot, and he commented he could win the turkey but he didn't have the dollar.

Mr. LIEBELER. This was on the 10th, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. But had no direct contact no more than asked him like the 10 other fellows I talked to. That was my impression of him.

The next, the 17th, is where he and I had the run in, where he shot my target. I paid two bits and put up a target, and before I got ready to shoot it there would be somebody shoot a hole in it. So Lucille, my wife, she was with me. She was keeping score. We got to noticing who it was, and maybe he would shoot anybody's target, and I raised the devil. I didn't see why I have to pay my two bits and pay for a new target sheet and I'm shooting No. 9, and the rifle range operator came and told him not to shoot my target after that, and that is how I remember the part in his hair and the look on his face.

And I told him, I said, "You are not going to win no turkey shooting rapid fire."

He shot rapid fire about three or four times, and they had a cap full of shells and they were shooting--I mean he was burning up the ammunition. And I talked about that going back to Snug Harbor, because somebody is going to get hurt, because everybody shooting everybody's target.

And there was a bunch of ruffians shooting pistols, and there was lots of people. And I remember when I told him that, he give me a look that I never would forget it. That is the only reason I remember him when they showed him on television. It made me sick and I tried to figure out. It took me a day to figure out where I had seen him.

I said, Lucille, we own the waterworks and we know a lot of men and do a lot of things. We have a fish hatchery and we contacted maybe five or six people we don't know every day, and I didn't sleep at night for 3 nights until I pinned down where we saw him.

And I went to the rifle range and these four or five other people knew he had been there, but they were afraid to say anything about it.

But when I asked the manager, I said, "Oswald was over here," and he said, "Yes, I know he was." And they were afraid it would hurt their business.

And I told Charlie Brown and Doc Carter where I saw the fellow, and I think it was; everyone doubts if they knew anything at all on him, so they met me over there and between the three, they admitted sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who is this Charlie Brown that you referred to?

Mr. SLACK. He is the FBI man. He and Doc Carter, they came out two different times and I talked to them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Carter is also an FBI agent?

Mr. SLACK. One was Secret Service and one was the FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned there were other people out at the range who saw Oswald. Do you remember their names?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; because I was not taking their names. But I do know that they got the boy that worked on his rifle scope on Wednesday. That was in the middle of the week, between the 10th and the 17th. They got his deposition, because the boy, I know, put his scope on his rifle for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the boy's name?

Mr. SLACK. No, sir; I don't know his name. Never tried to find out his name. I never talked about it, because Charlie Brown and Doc Carter asked me not to tell what I knew, and that is all. I had nothing to gain. In other words, they took it up, what they found, I never knew.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you mentioned this fellow that put the scope on the rifle, how do you know? Tell us what you know about that?

Mr. SLACK. Because I read it in the paper about a week afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have no direct knowledge yourself about the scope?

Mr. SLACK. No; there were so many different fellows working on the rifle range, there was possibly three or four boys who did it, and I never really connected which one it would be, because I wasn't doing any investigating anyway. See what I mean?

I felt like that knowing the guy and connecting it together, if I just kept my mouth shut and tried to just remember seeing the fellow, there was a lot of that done. It was done in our own family.

In other words, Vernon Stone was with me and Jimbo, he is 12 years old, the boy, and when it dawned on me where I saw him and I knew that I had my son-in-law take my gun, my custom-made gun out of Oswald's, take it out of his hand and put it in the car, because I was afraid he would steal it, and I told Vernon by long distance on the telephone, and Vernon did too, and well, he already had made up in his mind that he never had seen that fellow. He didn't remember anything, and Jimbo doesn't either. He didn't want to remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is the incident about the rifle? Did Oswald have your rifle at any time?

Mr. SLACK. He handled my rifle and he handled my targets, that was the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you say anything to Oswald other than----

Mr. SLACK. The only time--I didn't specifically say to Oswald. I said to all the boys, to seven or eight shooters, about that rapid firing and about shooting other targets rather than the one they bought and paid for. If they were in chair 7, and there was a number down a 100 yards, No. 7, he was supposed to shoot No. 7.

Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, you didn't say anything to him?

Mr. SLACK. That is all I said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a chance to see the rifle that he had?

Mr. SLACK. I absolutely saw the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of rifle was it?

Mr. SLACK. It was an Italian type rifle, but it never showed in the newspapers, a picture of that rifle.

In other words, if the first picture that came out of the officer holding the rifle, that was on the floor of the Book Depository, if that was the gun, I had never seen that gun before, and I know rifles and I know scopes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was the difference between it and the rifle you saw?

Mr. SLACK. The one he had was a small three-quarters, about seven hundred fifty thousandths diameter tube, a small tube no bigger than your thumb, with the windage gage. They were practicing. It was a cheap scope. Well, $5.66 scope. But it was sporterized. You cut the wood off of them. Short barrel.

Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, this rifle that Oswald had was a sporterized rifle? It had been rebuilt?

Mr. SLACK. Just as advertised. I have seen besides the Oswald, I have friends that have those rifles. I wouldn't shoot a toad frog with one of them, because I know that they are just junk.

In other words, you take that rifle as it was manufactured, and you cut the barrel off 8 inches, and you take all the wood off the top of the barrel and cut this off here, and varnish it, and have it blued, and it makes a pretty little gun. It was one that he had wrapped up and handed over the fence, but they had two other guns that type. They had no scopes on them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there somebody else?

Mr. SLACK. That Sunday there sure was. The tall boy had the biggest feet of any kid I ever saw, and about the time he would go to shoot, he would kick with his feet, and I said if my feet was that big I would bump somebody too.

He was the boy that drove him to that rifle range the 17th. They found the boy. He had no connection with him except he had driven him there.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you know they found him?

Mr. SLACK. I read it in the paper. I don't know what his name was. Don't know where they found him, but they found him, and he had no connection with him, no more than I had. He just probably begged a ride and he took him to the rifle range, but they had three guns.

Lucille remembers the boy handing the guns over the fence, and they were throwing the guns in the back of the old model car and taking off like they did.

And I recognized that because a gun, a good gun, you are not supposed--they just threw those old guns in that car, or they took two of them. Of course, one was wrapped up in a blanket, a dirty looking old grey blanket that had a red trim, I remember. I remember that, because we found an old blanket at our house and I told Lucille I was trying to think, I knew it was something common, this good gun, it was wrapped up and tied up.

The sporterized Italian gun was tied up and he handed it over the fence nicely. And he had a grey and red maroon, looked slick as satin, and I remember it well, what a gun case--you see everything at a shooting place--some bring a rifle in a tote sack and--for a gun case.

The other thing I remember about that blanket he had wrapped around his gun, it was tied up with a rag string that was torn about an inch and a half wide out of a filling station type wipe cloth, a ribbon, pink, and he had torn it up and--to use as a rag string.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of car these fellows drove?

Mr. SLACK. No; I couldn't remember it, and Lucille couldn't except it was an older model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a sedan?

Mr. SLACK. A four-door sedan, and it was a dark color, and he left there like a crazy bunch of hoodlums. And Lucille would remember that because she made a remark to me. You know how boys take off and make the dust fly.

Well we had--in other words, without having some reason, you wouldn't notice what kind of car it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture of a rifle. Two pictures that have previously been marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener, and ask you if that looks like the rifle they had at the rifle range?

Mr. SLACK. I don't remember a carrying strap on it, this rifle here. Of course, that is something you use to carry the gun, if you take it. That could be it, that is right, with the sling off. When I saw the gun the sling was not on it.

I don't think it had the wood up above the barrel, because when it is sporterized, as I remember, the whole barrel is painted blue.

Mr. LIEBELER. So there was not as much wood to the front of the rifle on the one you saw at the range, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the scope? Was it the same kind of scope?

Mr. SLACK. I can say no. Pictures do something to you, but that scope seems like it is a 1-inch, that scope, according to the size of the gun and proportions of sizes. This is the same gun upside down, the other side.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you are pretty clear this isn't the rifle because of the wood that protrudes?

Mr. SLACK. This rifle had the barrel cut off. I know this rifle right here. This is proportionately, Mr. Liebeler----

Mr. LIEBELER. Pardon?

Mr. SLACK. No; the sight is, the open sight is out on it since it has been cut off.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one that you saw at the rifle range had been cut off, is that correct?

Mr. SLACK. It had been cut off, and I will swear it had been reblued, and it did not have the front ramp sight of that rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that the rifle you saw at the rifle range is not the same rifle as the picture I have just shown you, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. Now they had two other rifles that would fit that. They were not sporterized.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they didn't have scopes on them?

Mr. SLACK. They didn't have scopes on them.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that the rifle you saw at the range did have the barrel cut off and didn't have the sight on the front so it couldn't have been this rifle?

Mr. SLACK. I would say that. I would say that is not it, because the sporterized rifle, the shiny new one, I don't think it had the metal binding on it. The top wood, so this holds the top wood. Now, that is the type of rifle, see what I mean. But I really notice things about rifles like a jewelry man or a lady would about the setting of a ring. I wouldn't know--but I know rifles.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this was the same general type of rifle as the one you saw that had been sporterized and had the wood cut off?

Mr. SLACK. This is a magazine. You recognize one of them a mile off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures of a man or some men that have been previously marked Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456. I want to ask you if this looks like either one of the men that you saw at the rifle range on the 17th of November?

Mr. SLACK. The jacket was the first thing I remembered. When they described the jacket in the paper before I even looked at the fellow, because the man pulled a jacket off and put it on top of a load of sand you used it for a pad to shoot from----

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the guy you saw? Does anyone in those pictures look like him?

Mr. SLACK. Those heavy eyebrows and that part in the hair, but apparently he had more hair. Maybe he got a haircut afterwards.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who had more hair, the fellow?

Mr. SLACK. The picture. The man I saw in this picture right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man you saw had more hair?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; he sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think that any of these pictures are a picture of the man that you saw at the rifle range that day?

Mr. SLACK. The difference in position he was in and everything, that looked like him, but he wasn't that sleepy-eyed. He was a cocky guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Referring to Exhibit 453?

Mr. SLACK. When he looked at me. I don't see how in the world he could ever get a pleasant look on his face like this picture here. Probably he could, but----

Mr. LIEBELER. You think that the picture 456 looks a little more pleasant than the fellow you remember seeing at the rifle range, is that right?

Mr. SLACK. He sure does.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you another picture, Mr. Slack, that has been previously marked as Pizzo's 453-C, and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. SLACK. That is him. I would know that baby face and that chin, and he had a--I remember people, but no names.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the hair?

Mr. SLACK. That is the man I saw at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are sure about that?

Mr. SLACK. I know it is. In other words, just like if I saw you tomorrow. Because his eyes were deep like a man that was, that wears highly magnified glasses and then doesn't have his glasses on. And he had that deep--that is the man we saw out there. That is the man. And I would remember him 20 years from now, just over that one incident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that guy's picture in the paper?

Mr. SLACK. But he don't have a good--he didn't have a very good likeness of him, like the paper pictures. That was him as I saw him at the rifle range, and as I saw him I second before. No, one-tenth of a second before he was shot. That is the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mean on television?

Mr. SLACK. On television. And I saw when they were transferring him even before that. And I told Lucille, I told my wife, wait a minute, I've got to see the side of his face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you recognize the side of his face?

Mr. SLACK. But not positive enough until I got to see him at the time he was shot. You see, you read the papers and you get to where you imagine things and you find yourself imagining that you saw somebody, and I never had anything that made me as sick for 3 days. Absolutely made me sick of stretching my brain of trying to figure out what contact we had had with the guy.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. Take a look at that and see if you can recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. SLACK. The fifth fellow from the left, because I saw the side of his face quite a bit at the rifle range. He has rather a long nose and long chin and a high forehead. In other words, that was the thing about the man that I would remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture. It is the same picture that I just showed you except that it has a green line over the fellow that you have indicated, does it not?

Mr. SLACK. Well, it is like this picture. Those are the front, no, he doesn't have a part. He didn't have that hair. I would remember his hair. And he had the hair that grew down his neck, all the way down into his jacket.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say this fellow here in the picture, the fifth fellow from the left is not the person?

Mr. SLACK. That is the fellow. As I remember, this is the fellow that is under the green mark. But seemed like he had more hair. You see, I shot in one chair. I looked at the side of that fellow quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. You think the fellow you saw at the rifle range had more hair than the fellow with the green mark?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, the wind blew and he was bareheaded. I guess he had a haircut in this picture here. He had quite a bit of hair on his back and on his neck like me. I need a haircut. But I remember, because on the television the hair was also down on his neck. Even more so than he shows in the picture there. Probably taken at different times and under different conditions. Just like this picture here, he is a pleasant looking fellow.

Mr. LIEBELER. This fellow looks more pleasant than the guy you saw?

Mr. SLACK. Yes; of course, at times, a fellow can be sorry on the world and still there would be a little fun come into him sometime. And he had big ears. His ears stood out, what I mean.

Mr. LIEBELER. The picture that you are looking at is 453-B, Pizzo's exhibit, that we have been referring to. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Slack. I want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. I know we gave you very little time and we appreciate it very much.

Mr. SLACK. We had already forgotten everything about it, and we figured it was, well, it was just some unpleasant memory, and it couldn't have shocked me. Now this newspaper, Gruber, was a press, a Washington pressman, was he some of your bunch?

Mr. LIEBELER. What was his name?

Mr. SLACK. Gruber.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about him?

Mr. SLACK. He is the fellow that came to see me about 3 weeks ago. He called me three or four times and give me a lot of trouble, and I give him to understand that I didn't want to talk with him, because the newspaper had, I thought, made too big a show out of it.

And they used my name and used my address. They didn't put my picture, with the assassination, or the picture, but I expected it any time to come out, but I have a good friend with the Times Herald, Mr. Albert Jackson, and I called Albert and I told him not to send his men because I was not talking to the newspaper. My phone was tapped and they came out the next day and everything that I told Albert, the newspaperman, and I told him that, because I didn't want it to get in the paper. He never put it in their paper. My own friend never got anything, but the news, they got it all.

Mr. LIEBELER. What made you think your telephone was tapped?

Mr. SLACK. I think it was because they had things in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who do you think tapped it, the newspaper people?

Mr. SLACK. The FBI and the Secret Service, they didn't tap it. They don't do things like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service doesn't?

Mr. SLACK. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the FBI?

Mr. SLACK. They said they did not, and I blamed it on the newspaper. And they came and made a television picture of me and gave me an interview. And I wanted to know what identification they had and who they were with, and they fooled around and made about a 3-minute conversation and they never did show it, but it never was shown anyplace. Just newshounds. And they put up a big front that it was the Warren Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who were they?

Mr. SLACK. The television guys from Fort Worth, and they were in such a big hurry to leave, they just took my picture and took off. They had 15 minutes to get to Fort Worth, and I never heard any more of it at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think they had anything to do with the Warren Commission.

TESTIMONY OF DR. HOMER WOOD

The testimony of Dr. Homer Wood was taken at 3 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dr. Wood, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Dr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please be seated. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week. Did you get a letter from him?

Dr. WOOD. We each had an airmail letter from Washington, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that Mr. Rankin included a copy of the Executive order to which I have first referred as well as a copy of the joint resolution of Congress and the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald was at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis Street in Dallas, Tex., sometime during November 1963--before going into the details of that particular incident, please state your full name for the record.

Dr. WOOD. Homer Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are a dentist, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state briefly for us your educational background.

Dr. WOOD. Well, I had 2 years of predental at Southern Methodist University and 4 years at Baylor University College of Dentistry, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native Texan?

Dr. WOOD. I am a native Texan, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Born here in Dallas?

Dr. WOOD. Born in Besse May, Tex. It is a dead town now.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Dr. WOOD. July 4, 1910.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing dentistry?

Dr. WOOD. Since 1938.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission is advised that sometime during November of 1963, you and your son, whose name I understand is Sterling Charles Wood, went to the Sports Drome Rifle Range, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct. If I recall correctly, it was on November 16. That was a Saturday afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you clear in your own mind that it was a Saturday that you went to the range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the only time that you went to the rifle range during November?

Dr. WOOD. That is correct.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time of day did you go out there?

Dr. WOOD. I was listening to the Southwest Conference football game. My boy kept asking me to "Hurry, daddy, I want to go to try my scope out on my gun," and I listened to half of the game. I presume when we got out there it was around 3 o'clock in the afternoon. At the rifle range, I am not definite, but it was between 3 and 5. We left before 5.

Mr. LIEBELER. Left the range before 5?

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get an opportunity to finish listening to the game?

Dr. WOOD. No; we didn't hear any more of the game.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what happened after you arrived at the range?

Dr. WOOD. Well, the range was pretty busy because it was just before deer season and most of the fellows out there was sighting in their scope, and we waited a short while to get a place for my boy to sit down to sight in his scope. Then when he did--now do you want me to start here with Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. I want you tell me just what happened.

Dr. WOOD. Okay. My boy was shooting his rifle, and there was a fellow sitting to his right. I thought it was an offbrand gun. It wasn't shooting like the other rifles there. When he would fire the rifle, at the end of the barrel there would be a ball of fire coming out at the end of the barrel, and that is what attracted my attention to this fellow.

When I said to my son, I said, "Son, be careful, I am afraid that gun is going to blow up." And I was kind of laughing and joking around with the other fellow that was waiting in--waiting to sight in their scope and I would hand him cotton and I would say, "Get ready, this fellow is getting ready to shoot this 105 howitzer." And I said to my son, step back, or lean over, or be careful, and he said, "Daddy, that is all right, it is an Italian carbine."

So they fired several rounds, and after they would fire three or four rounds, then the keeper out there would say let's go look at our targets, and we would go down and I would look at my boy's target and he wasn't doing so good, but the second round we went down there and we noticed this fellow's target to our right, and my boy made a statement, "Daddy, this fellow is not having much trouble." So I did notice his target, and most of his shots was within the target, but there were a few that was outside the target, from an inch to 2 inches outside of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Outside the bulls-eye?