Chapter XIII: Part 13

Mr. JENNER. In response to this message that had been transmitted to the Texas State Employment Agency, somebody by the name of Lee Oswald came to your place of business, to the factory, and you had made it clear through your secretary, who called on your behalf, that you were seeking somebody who was going to start at the bottom, to be trained, that if he had some sheet metal experience that would be fine?

Mr. BARGAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. But, whoever this employee or prospective employee would be, would start at a low rate and it would be contemplated that he would be trained?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, Lee Oswald came on the scene--do you recall your meeting with him?

Mr. BARGAS. No--not very distinctly--no.

Mr. JENNER. Do you relatively frequently have occasion to seek new employees?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. This was not out of the ordinary?

Mr. BARGAS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was just in the regular course of business?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And neither the nature of the employment, nor the man himself in either respect--was there anything unusual or particular about it?

Mr. BARGAS. No--none whatever.

Mr. JENNER. And tell us about that meeting, to the extent you can recall it.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, it's pretty hard because I meet so many people that's come in and out.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that--it may be important to us, Mr. Bargas, that your recollection is exactly what it is, that this employment was just the usual, ordinary sort of thing and that he didn't impress you greatly--don't you be embarrassed at all--all we want to find out from you is what your personal recollection is and what you remember, that's all.

It may be just as important to us that you remember very little, because it was not extraordinary, as your remembering something particular about it. Give us what you now recall took place.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, the only thing that I remember taking place was him coming into the plant.

Mr. JENNER. And he came to see you--or he was directed to you?

Mr. BARGAS. He was directed to me, and he came in and I gave him an application to fill out and we talked and I gave him instructions of what I expected of the men when he came to be employed there.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us as best you can now recall that conversation--what you told him--what did you expect, what did you say to him that you expected?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I have three basic rules that I go by--one, is that I expect a man to be there on time and I expect him, when he punches in in the morning to be prepared to work, and if he is going to be absent for any reason at all, I expect him to call in in the morning before 10 o'clock which is one of our company rules, and then I went along stating what he would be doing, where he would be working----

Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us what you said to him, in substance.

Mr. BARGAS. What I said to him in substance probably was--I usually tell them, "You will be working in this department," and----

Mr. JENNER. Which department?

Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department.

Mr. JENNER. The turbine department?

Mr. BARGAS. The turbine department, and that's another ventilator which we make, and this ventilator requires a little cutting to do with the shears, and he told me that he had had sheet metal experience while he was in the service.

Mr. JENNER. All right, go ahead.

Mr. BARGAS. And so----

Mr. JENNER. What kind of cutting--you say with the shears--is it a power-operated shears?

Mr. BARGAS. A power-operated shears.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. BARGAS. And then after that, I put him to work.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to stick to that beginning a little bit--do you recall what inquiries you made of him as to his immediate history, that is, did you inquire of him as to past positions, if any, he had held?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. When you talked with him, I take it from your answer that you did inquire of him as to what sheet metal work experience he had had, if any?

Mr. BARGAS. If any.

Mr. JENNER. And his response was--what did he say?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, he said he had had some when he was in the service and that's all, and he didn't give no full detail as to what he was doing or how he was doing it.

Mr. JENNER. And you didn't inquire?

Mr. BARGAS. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. I take it, then, at that stage of the game it was your impression or your thought, since this was to be a low hourly rated employee, that you would soon find out if he had any experience?

Mr. BARGAS. Right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you intended to train him in any event?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, do you have any recollection of his appearance on that occasion, how he was attired with respect to cleanliness, did he have a suit coat on, a jacket, or a T-shirt, or if you have no recollection, then just say you don't?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. This was just an employment in the ordinary course of business that you do frequently?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And nothing with respect to this man impressed you or now stands out?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. At this initial interview?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him as to where he lived?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. As to whether he had a telephone or not?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he married--did he have a family?

Mr. BARGAS. The only thing--he was married but he never stated--he never said what nationality his wife was or anything like that. As a matter of fact, he never--we never communicated that much. In other words, we didn't talk--we didn't communicate between each other that much.

Once or twice I tried to talk with him, you know, we usually try to find out how the employees are getting along, whether they like their jobs they are working at and if not, then we try to place them in a different position, and I make them satisfactory and that way I feel that a man can put out more.

Mr. JENNER. That's right.

Mr. BARGAS. And so, I tried to talk to him once or twice and all I would get "yes", "no" and that was it, and as long as I gave him the job he went and done it as everybody else in the plant, so I didn't have no grudge on him or nothing at all. I assigned him a job and he done it and I was satisfied.

Mr. JENNER. He was a somewhat uncommunicative person?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But this did not interfere with his work?

Mr. BARGAS. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. As far as you were concerned, even though he was uncommunicative, he was doing his work and he wasn't causing any trouble, so as far as his personality was concerned, you let that pass?

Mr. BARGAS. It was satisfactory with me.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of an employee was he, or what is your impression and present recollection?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, as much as I can remember of the short time he was there, it was a very short time he was there--he was a good employee. I imagine if he pursued that trade, he might have come out to be a pretty good sheet metal man--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But at least that's your impression?

Mr. BARGAS. That's my impression.

Mr. JENNER. I take it he did not volunteer anything with respect to his past or his family or his current activities outside the plant?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What were his relations, if any, with respect to other employees?

Mr. BARGAS. None whatever.

Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by that that he kept to himself?

Mr. BARGAS. Totally.

Mr. JENNER. Totally--what about lunch times--employees usually get together at lunch time?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, everybody used to get together over there except himself. He would take his lunch and move over to the side there and eat his lunch by himself and he didn't talk to nobody about nothing, so nobody ever even messed with him, I mean as far as that's concerned.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have as to whether he was indifferent to his work, happy with his work--what impression do you have as to his reaction to his work?

Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing stands out?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to whether he ever sought to be particularly industrious or tried to impress you?

Mr. BARGAS. No; the only thing I can remember--he just done his job--that's all.

Mr. JENNER. He was prompt, was he, in the mornings?

Mr. BARGAS. As far as I can remember he was there every day.

Mr. JENNER. And he had a good attendance record, as far as you can recall?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection of anybody employed at the plant with whom Oswald did or might have associated after work hours or on weekends?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. And as far as you observed, during the days of employment, he kept pretty much to himself anyhow?

Mr. BARGAS. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever observe anything with respect to his temperament--was he quick tempered, was there any incident that occurred that would give you a basis for an opinion?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. How long did he work there, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. BARGAS. I believe it was up until September, if I'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there.

Mr. JENNER. Would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about October 8th 1962?

Mr. BARGAS. No; I don't remember.

Mr. JENNER. Could he have worked until October 8th?

Mr. BARGAS. It is possible.

Mr. JENNER. But your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of September when his employment was terminated?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours.

Mr. JENNER. After the regular quitting time?

Mr. BARGAS. After quitting time at 4:30, and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. You expected him back the next day?

Mr. BARGAS. I expected him back the next morning and if I'm not mistaken, it was Friday, and Monday he didn't show up, I believe it was; if I'm not mistaken--I can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as I can remember, so I never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and I figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so I just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all I said then was, "Well, I imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing."

In other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. They would come back on the following Friday or something like that and say, "I quit, I've got another job." That's what the other guys would say.

Well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. He said he was up there in Irving somewhere--I don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as I know that was it. I never had seen him since then and the last time I heard of him was when his name sounded off on the radio.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you then?

Mr. BARGAS. I was there at the plant.

Mr. JENNER. This was in the afternoon of November 22d?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. BARGAS. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you heard his name broadcast on the radio?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that awakened your memory?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, it come to me--in other words--the name right there, it rang a bell--in other words, because I remember some of the names--in other words, when they say them, I can more or less remember them, and then I even said to myself, well, I wasn't too sure of it then, you know, because there are so many Oswalds, so when I got home that afternoon, I was watching the television and there they came with a flash picture of him and I remembered him.

Mr. JENNER. On the television?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And the flash picture you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald who had been an employee under your supervision and direction?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes--he was the one that had been employed there.

Mr. JENNER. You recognized him?

Mr. BARGAS. I recognized him.

Mr. JENNER. And, did that excite you to look at other television showings to confirm your recollection that the man under arrest by the Dallas City Police was Lee Harvey Oswald, a former employee of Leslie Welding Company?

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I followed the whole thing pretty well. I mean--it wasn't that I was interested in knowing whether I knew the man, because it didn't impress me very much of having known the man that done the deed that he did, but I did follow it pretty close and as I said, as I followed him more and more, I remembered him more and more.

Mr. JENNER. During the period of his employment, that was approximately a couple of months or a little more--more or less--did he evidence any disposition toward physical violence, quick temper, arguments with fellow employees, or anything of that nature?

Mr. BARGAS. None that I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, inclusive, and ask you to examine those photographs and tell me if the man depicted on those photographs, in your opinion, bears any resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. BARGAS. [Examining exhibits referred to.] None of them.

Mr. JENNER. He does not?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. What about his skills, did he do a reasonably satisfactory job?

Mr. BARGAS. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bargas, I think that's about all the questions I have. I would like to ask you, however, this general question as to whether anything has occurred to you, any incident or anything else that has come to your mind that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. BARGAS. No.

Mr. JENNER. All right. You are privileged to read your deposition, if you wish to, and to sign it, if you wish to. It isn't required and you may waive it if you see fit--that is--forego it.

Miss Oliver will have it ready sometime during the week if you want to call in to Mr. Sanders' office, the United States Attorney's office, and come in and read it, you have a right to have a copy of your deposition if you wish to purchase one, and Miss Oliver will be quite willing to sell you one at whatever her rates are.

Do you have any preferences in this connection?

Mr. BARGAS. I would like to have one of those depositions--yes.

Mr. JENNER. When you call into Mr. Sanders and he will put you in touch with Miss Oliver and you can make arrangements with her for a copy, and I appreciate your coming in and regret any inconvenience to you, but you have been helpful to us.

Mr. BARGAS. Well, I'm glad I have. As far as I know--I don't know--as much as I knew about the man, I don't think I can tell you enough--as much as I thought I knew the man. If I had known anything like that about the man, he would have never been employed there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, so say we all.

Mr. BARGAS. But it's just one of those things.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mr. BARGAS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT L. STOVALL

The testimony of Robert L. Stovall was taken at 3:30 p.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. Attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, would you please rise and be sworn. Do you swear in your testimony that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. You are Robert L. Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That's [spelling] S-t-o-v-a-l-l?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are president of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, 523 Browder, here in Dallas, is that right?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, my name is [spelling] J-e-n-n-e-r, Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. You received from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel of the Commission, a letter in which he enclosed, three documents--Joint Resolution 137 authorizing the creation of the Commission, Executive Order 11130 of President Johnson, creating the Commission, and then the Rules of Procedure of the Commission itself.

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily in an effort to assist the Commission in its work?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. We are investigating as you notice in those papers all the possible pertinent facts and circumstances surrounding that horrible event, to see if we can enlighten the citizenry of the country and at least get all of the facts recorded, and in the main, as a matter of fact, get rid of a lot of rumors that keep cropping up here and there, and since Lee Oswald was employed by your company, we would like to make some inquiries of your company, if we may.

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas, Texas?

Mr. STOVALL. Dallas; yes.

Mr. JENNER. How old are you, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. Forty-three.

Mr. JENNER. And is this your company--is it a corporation or a partnership?

Mr. STOVALL. It is a corporation.

Mr. JENNER. Are you the principal shareholder?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you organize the company?

Mr. STOVALL. No; this is the second generation of the company. The original founders disposed of their holdings about 3-1/2 years ago.

Mr. JENNER. Disposed of them to you and your family?

Mr. STOVALL. And several of our employees.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been with the company how long?

Mr. STOVALL. Twenty-five years.

Mr. JENNER. That has been, I gather then, considering your age--your entire business career has been spent with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, except while I was in the Navy and I worked summers while I was going to college.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you attend the university, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. I went to Texas Tech and SMU. I attended SMU at night and worked in the day.

Mr. JENNER. What does your company do?

Mr. STOVALL. We are in the typographic services. We serve advertising agencies, advertising departments, and the graphic arts industry as a middle supplier for type services. We also produce newspaper mats for duplication throughout the United States.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any work for any federal agency?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind?

Mr. STOVALL. On occasion we do. Most of it is not, but we do on occasion. We are cleared through the Navy Bureau Materiel here, although I believe it now has been incorporated under the Department of Defense as a single unit.

Mr. JENNER. Without disclosing any secrets in that connection or classifications, what is the nature of that work?

Mr. STOVALL. Generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and figures. We have no correlation of what they refer to.

Mr. JENNER. It's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land areas or what?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; and some foreign areas, too.

Mr. JENNER. That is, other than continental United States?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; right.

Mr. JENNER. Was any of this work done in the department or area to which Lee Oswald had access while he was employed by your company?

Mr. STOVALL. Not in the department at all. Whatever secret work we might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view this.

Mr. JENNER. So, anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate Federal agency?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And then, I gather that as far as Lee Harvey Oswald is concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work?

Mr. STOVALL. This is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that your company is at pains to see that no one other than those who are cleared have access to it?

Mr. STOVALL. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And that was true while he was working for you?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes. In fact, at such times as we have any secret work going, even at the point of being rude, we see that no one has access to any of this material. I won't say--rude--but we strictly enforce it.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you make it pretty firm, which is right?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any lithography work?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any printing of advertisements, papers, newspapers, periodicals?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. You set type, of course?

Mr. STOVALL. We set type. The only printing we do is a proving process, and that should we do an ad, let's say some of the Savings Bond Committee and ship one hundred mats, we would also ship one hundred proofs.

Mr. JENNER. You pull off proofs but your presses are proof presses, and that's all?

Mr. STOVALL. Right; we have no printing presses in this regard.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you do a lot of camera work?

Mr. STOVALL. Considerable; yes.

Mr. JENNER. But it is commercial camera work?

Mr. STOVALL. Right; it isn't even photography. It is only the part of reducing and enlarging printed material that we set in our type shop. It has to be re-sized and we also make screen veloxes.

Mr. JENNER. Explain for the record what that is.

Mr. STOVALL. A velox is a photographic print that has been screened by a dot press to separate the tone values in order that a camera can shoot them in black and white or in any group of colors, but it breaks it down into minute units that a camera will recognize.

Mr. JENNER. That's like half tones for newspaper printing?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you do any plate work other than the mats?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is the term "microdot printing" or lithographing familiar to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Lithography is--microdot printing is not.

Mr. JENNER. And you don't do any work of that nature and character?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Other than the preparation of or use of dot work as you have already described it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You personally have no familiarity with microdot reduction of some image?

Mr. STOVALL. No; we have no equipment and I have no experience in that. I am familiar with the microfilm as to the advantages of it from the standpoint of storage and so forth, but as to participating in any microfilming operation, we don't.

Mr. JENNER. Or any microdot in printing?

Mr. STOVALL. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. For example, taking a 24 by 24 printed sheet and microdot reducing it to less than the area of a postage stamp.

Mr. STOVALL. There are several specialty houses here and this is all done by Recordak and it is a specialty with them and they have the equipment.

Mr. JENNER. But you have none and you have never done it?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the circumstances under which Lee Harvey Oswald was employed by your company?

Mr. STOVALL. I know the circumstances only from the statement made by John Graef, the fellow you interviewed this morning. He made the interview himself. We were in the market for a trainee to learn this simple photoprint process. He has had a connection with the Employment Commission and the State Employment Commission for a quite a few years in that we use their services. That's what they are for.

Mr. JENNER. You personally had nothing to do with Oswald's initial employment?

Mr. STOVALL. No.

Mr JENNER. That was Mr. Graef?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; he is the head of that department.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of his progress or lack of it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes--through their information.

Mr. JENNER. Through reports from Mr. Graef?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And he kept you advised from time to time?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you were personally aware of Oswald's progress or lack of it?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And were there any incidents that came to your attention with respect to Oswald's relations with other employees?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I personally know of--on occasion one or two fellows would mention that they didn't have any real liking for him because he was such an oddball, but as far as I'm concerned, I never spoke to the fellow.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him in and about the premises, however?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes, sir; I have seen him in and about the premises.

Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise in which the subject of his conversation or his talking about Russia arose or was reported to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Only after he left our employ was any mention made of it.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. STOVALL. He sought employment at another company here in town, a printing company.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the name of that company?

Mr. STOVALL. Padgett Printing Co.--Padgett Printing and Lithographing Co., and the superintendent over there called me and he gave us as a reference.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know the superintendent's name?

Mr. STOVALL. Ted Gangel.

Mr. JENNER. Would you spell it, please?

Mr. JENNER. G-a-n-g-e-l [spelling], or G-a-n-g-l--I won't be sure.

Mr. JENNER. They are here in Dallas?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes--he's their superintendent. He called me and asked me and I told him I did not know, but I would check, so I asked John Graef and they said this fellow was kind of an oddball, and he was kinda peculiar sometimes and that he had had some knowledge of the Russian language, which--this is all I knew, so I told Ted, I said, "Ted, I don't know, this guy may be a damn Communist. I can't tell you. If I was you, I wouldn't hire him." So, he didn't, but he did come out of the Marines and supposedly he had a discharge that was satisfactory but I did not ever see this discharge.

Mr. JENNER. Was anything said in connection with your inquiries at that time about his having had a Russian language newspaper around your place of employment?

Mr. STOVALL. One of the fellows mentioned that he thought he might have, but in further discussion he was unable to pinpoint whether he was positive of this or whether he just thought it was. This fellow Ofstein--I think he made mention of it, the fact that he thought he might have seen one.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he said not only did he see it, but that he read it. He had some command of the Russian language himself. He was a student at the Service Language School in Monterey, Calif., when he was in the service.

Mr. STOVALL. Actually, when I was talking to this fellow Padgett, I was really just shooting off my mouth, but it seemed the way it turned out, that maybe there was a little bit of founding to it.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything that came to your attention about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. STOVALL. No; I really didn't know any particulars on it until this incident happened.

Mr. JENNER. It was subsequent to November 22, 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. No, previous to that.

Mr. JENNER. Did it ever come to your attention of Oswald having any contact with any of your employees subsequent to the termination of his employment?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of.

Mr. JENNER. I have here Commission Exhibit 427, which purports to be the original of an employee identification questionnaire of your company, with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, and would you look at it, please?

Mr. STOVALL. (Examining instrument referred to.)

Mr. JENNER. And are you familiar in fact with what it purports to be?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; this is the employment card that we had on him.

Mr. JENNER. And that is part of your original books and records of your company, kept in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. STOVALL. Right--this was picked up by the Secret Service and somewhere I have a receipt from them, well, there is a negative--I destroyed the positive.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are showing me a receipt and if I could read backwards, I would be able to read this.

Mr. STOVALL. If you have a mirror, you can look at it and read it.

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Mr. Stovall, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Are you able to tell me whose handwriting that is in the extreme upper right-hand corner of Exhibit 427?

Mr. STOVALL. That is one of the personnel--in our bookkeeping and payroll department, and I could not tell you who it would be, but it would be one of three people.

Mr. JENNER. But it is an entry by an employee of your company made in the usual and regular course of business, is it?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And it records the date of termination of Oswald's employment?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. The sixth day of April 1963?

Mr. STOVALL. He was given notice the latter part of March, and our company's procedure is to give a fellow a week or 10 days notice prior to the termination.

Mr. JENNER. Was his termination prospectively or otherwise discussed with you prior to it?

Mr. STOVALL. Oh, probably it was--I would not say for sure whether it was or wasn't. I'm pretty much of a dog around there when things don't go right I'm the one that has to do all the yelling, and if a guy doesn't produce, I say, "Let's do something," and from this basis I feel the responsibility to say that I probably had something to do with this termination, not as an individual, but only on his performance as far as the work standards were concerned.

Mr. JENNER. What was this man's skill to the extent that you recall, in these areas in which you sought to train him?

Mr. STOVALL. He had no skill. He had no training whatsoever. You see, we employed him only as a trainee and I think we probably started him at $1.25 or $1.35, or something like that, and automatically we give a youngster a 10- or 15-cent raise quarterly, but within 6 months, if they have shown no aptitude, we give up on them and have a parting of the ways.

Mr. JENNER. And that is what happened here?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; because we give them a raise doesn't mean that the person is competent, it means that it is just a system of employment we have when we start someone on minimum, or generally a 90-day basis, and we give them a nickel or dime, and then within a maximum of 6 months, if they have shown no aptitude, we just have to terminate them.

Mr. JENNER. That's in fairness to them as well as to your company?

Mr. STOVALL. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You also turned over to the Secret Service the application for employment that Oswald made with Padgett Printing Co.?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes. I do not have that receipt with Padgett.

Mr. JENNER. How did you come to have that, by the way?

Mr. STOVALL. The Secret Service on Saturday--I made contact with them--Mr. DePrato--this is his signature and I don't recall the other gentleman's name, and in our discussion, I mentioned the fact that I thought this fellow had sought employment with another company, but I didn't know what disposition had been made of it, and they asked would I call there, so while they were in my office I called, but there was no one there and I knew this fellow and I called his home and he is an astronomer as a hobby and he was giving a lecture to some students, so I made a contact with the person who was on the phone out here at the Astronomy Auditorium at the Fair, and he called me and I asked him could I get hold of this application for the Secret Service and he said "Yes," he would get it and bring it by, and in the meantime these fellows had gone somewhere else and I told them I would meet them Sunday in my office, so I did and gave it to them. The reason I had it--they asked me to secure it for them.

Mr. JENNER. And you did?

Mr. STOVALL. And I did.

Mr. JENNER. The expression "microdots" does that mean anything to you?

Mr. STOVALL. No; we have never gotten any microfilming processes whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Stovall, your able employee, Mr. Graef, has given me a good deal of detail and has been very helpful and likewise you have been. Is there anything that I have failed to bring out here because I don't know about it or haven't been stimulated to do so that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't believe so. There was such a short period of time this fellow worked for us and he was a constant source of irritation because of his lack of productive ability, that----

Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, please?

Mr. STOVALL. We would ask him to reduce a line to 4 inches in width, that happened to be 6, and he might make it 4-1/4 or 3-7/8, and this was a loss in labor and materials both, and it had to be redone.

Mr. JENNER. Did this occur with greater frequency than you thought--than your people thought was permissible, having in mind the progress which you would expect of him or a man in his position to have attained?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes; that's true.

Mr. JENNER. What about his relations with others in the company--other employees--how did he get along, or did that come to your attention?

Mr. STOVALL. I don't think anyone liked him or disliked him either one. He was just one of those people you don't know. If you don't know a guy, you can't know if you don't like him. That's probably the main reason we don't like him. Someone made mention in one instance that he bumped them in a dark room, which is a walkway area, and if a guy's bent over a tray and somebody else is coming by--he will get bumped, and it depends on who is doing the bumping, whether you get upset about it or not.

Mr. JENNER. Well, it can be done without taking offense to one another?

Mr. STOVALL. There's nothing at all wrong in it. There's no pain at all in saying "Excuse me."

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and apparently he was not inclined to do that.

Mr. STOVALL. It seems that that's so--yes.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had an impression as to whether he was an outgoing person or a reserved person--keeping to himself?

Mr. STOVALL. I think he must have been reserved, because the fellows who worked right with him, no one seems to have had any particular conversation with him. One guy invited him to go to church and he had such an unpleasant reception to it that that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. What incident was that--tell us about that.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, the fellow asked him what his religion was, and he asked him if he would like to go to church and I don't know what he said, but that was the end of that.

Mr. JENNER. He made it pretty clear he didn't want to go?

Mr. STOVALL. It seems that's the way it was.

Mr. JENNER. And he didn't want to be bothered by anyone?

Mr. STOVALL. He didn't want to discuss it either.

Mr. JENNER. All right; does anything else occur to you?

Mr. STOVALL. Not that I know of--the fellow had a good record of being on the job, I mean, he didn't have any absenteeism.

Mr. JENNER. He was prompt and worked every day and had little in the way of absenteeism?

Mr. STOVALL. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef said that he sought overtime employment; do you recall that?

Mr. STOVALL. Only by his statements that he made it known that he was available to work on Saturday and he simply had a wife and kid and needed the money and I'm sure that he did, as far as that goes, because of the rate of pay he was working, living in these times, it didn't go very far.

Mr. JENNER. Your overall impression is that he was an industrious person?

Mr. STOVALL. He was inefficient--I wouldn't say he was industrious--if he would have maybe applied himself at least--he was inept in this particular craft.

Mr. JENNER. All right. We appreciate this very much. Now, you have the right to read your deposition, and make any corrections in it you wish and to sign it.

Miss Oliver ought to have it ready sometime this week, if you wish to do that. You may obtain a copy if you wish by arrangement with her and she charges 35 cents a page.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, is it part of your procedure that I sign your copy?

Mr. JENNER. No; you may waive it.

Mr. STOVALL. I don't have any use for it.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have any use for it and you don't care to come back and read it for purposes of correction, at least your curiosity might bring you to read it sometime--other than that you have no desire to come back?

Mr. STOVALL. I suppose it is for the corporation--I should put it with our papers. That is my only reason for wanting it. That--the same as we are keeping these.

Mr. JENNER. You have two employees here--Mr. Graef and Mr. Ofstein--do you want her to write all three depositions or just your own?

Mr. STOVALL. Well, is the writing she does--is this the only reason it is for us?

Mr. JENNER. No; we have it written up for ourselves and that is why you can obtain a copy at 35 cents a page.

Mr. STOVALL. If there is some means of getting a copy of it--the only reason I was wanting it is for the record. I don't care anything about it otherwise--I suppose it might be of use. If this is out of order or anything, as far as I am concerned--that's all right.

Mr. JENNER. It's nothing out of order at all--all she does is for the small price of 35 cents a page is just a matter of preparing an extra copy, so, you go ahead and prepare a set, then, and I would suggest that you deliver it under seal to Mr. Stovall. Do you want all three or just your own?

Mr. STOVALL. If you don't mind I would just put the others in there, too.

Mr. JENNER. Yes, I understand; some people under the circumstances you are in do obtain copies, so that they can keep them in the corporate records.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, it's from the standpoint of corporate records of all the interviews and questions and so forth that we have been through on this--we have nothing other than three receipts and somewhere down the line in the years to come I would like to have it.

Mr. JENNER. You will find along the line in these depositions that they have covered everything that has been covered before and some more. We are able to probe a little more than those boys. They knew what they were after but they didn't have all the information that we have now.

Mr. STOVALL. Well, the men whom I have been in contact with have been nothing but nice.

Mr. JENNER. Oh, yes; the Secret Service men are always nice.

Mr. STOVALL. They are gentlemen of the first degree.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I can certify to that--they are very fine and very helpful, and greatly grieved over this as everybody else is.

That's all and thank you very much for coming.

Mr. STOVALL. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN G. GRAEF

The testimony of John G. Graef was taken at 9:20 a.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and be sworn, please, Mr. Graef?

Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. GRAEF. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Commission appointed to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy, our President, and I think Mr. Rankin of the Commission sent you, or you have received from Mr. Rankin, a letter together with copies of the Senate Joint Resolution 137, creating the Commission, authorizing its creation, and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing its power and also a copy of the procedural regulations adopted by the Commission with respect to the taking of testimony.

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear here voluntarily?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you know from those documents, is appointed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and particularly any facts and circumstances respecting the involvement of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that tragic event, and seeks to gain information from those who had some touch with his life, and we understand you had some connection with him with respect to an early employment, in 1962, by Mr. Oswald, in your company--Jaggars, J-a-g-g-a-r-s [spelling], Chiles, C-h-i-l-e-s [spelling], Stovall, S-t-o-v-a-l-l [spelling].

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness, Graef, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Our information is that Lee Oswald was an employee of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in October 1962; is that correct?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you lived at 522 Browder, B-r-o-w-d-e-r [spelling]?

Mr. GRAEF. No; that is the address of the firm--Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. You reside where?

Mr. GRAEF. At 7304 Turtle Creek.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. GRAEF. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. And you have been a resident here in Dallas for about how long?

Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 18 years.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a married man and have a family, I assume?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. And how long have you been employed or associated with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. GRAEF. About 10 or 11 years; perhaps a little longer.

Mr. JENNER. Since your earlier answer that Oswald was employed at one time in October 1962, by this company, do you have knowledge or reasonably direct information as to the circumstances leading up to his employment, and what kind of an employee he was?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Would you, in your own words, just tell us about it?

Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.

Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, as best you can, so I can get the whole story of the matter.

Mr. GRAEF. Fine. About that time--it was, I believe, October, I don't have any written information in front of me that I recall----

Mr. JENNER. This is 1962?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--I'll have to recall as best I can.

In about October 1962, as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time I called the Texas Employment Commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her?

Mr. GRAEF. I believe I remember--yes--Louise Latham.

Mr. JENNER. What your normal practice is in that respect?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And, particularly what you did on this occasion?

Mr. GRAEF. Being the director of the photographic department for some time, on numerous occasions it has been necessary for me to call and ask the Texas Employment and other sources for help in the normal turnover of employees that come up in any business.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell me something about those normal sources, because we may wish to look to them and see if we can find anybody else who had any possible contact with this man?

Mr. GRAEF. Surely. I can't name other employment agencies, but I will say, private employment agencies who occasionally have called us and told us that they had someone they thought had ability along our line, but this hadn't been as successful to us as the Texas Employment Commission. They seem to have a bigger repertoire of personnel needing jobs.

Mr. JENNER. Is that a public agency?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it is.

Mr. JENNER. State or local?

Mr. GRAEF. State; it is a State agency.

Mr. JENNER. It is here in Dallas?

Mr. GRAEF. It is here in Dallas.

Mr. JENNER. The office you called?

Mr. GRAEF. The office I called--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I assume it has offices in other cities in Texas?

Mr. GRAEF. I believe so; so I called--but to reiterate--mainly our best source of employees has been the Texas Employment Commission. They have a larger pool to draw from, so I called--in the course of my dealing with them--they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, I became familiar with one person.

Our particular photographic department is not one that we find experienced personnel readily, and the work we do is, I would say, quite different in various ways from ordinary photography, as most people know it. I will enlarge on that slightly by saying we do many, many things with letters. For example, we can take a straight line of type and we can curve it or bend it or twist it or put it in a circle, for example, and so, rather than just taking pictures of people as ordinary photographers do, this work which we perform for advertising agencies and artists in this area is a matter of training, learning first to use the equipment we have which takes some time, and then the differences in the material that we use.

For example, the characteristics of photographic paper, the characteristics of chemicals that we use, and it is only after learning and becoming familiar with the equipment and the materials that then you find out whether an employee will produce the work properly, on time, and well, and so, it is usually some time before an employee develops into or either becomes the kind of employee you want.

In other words, after this training period, and you have spent time with him teaching him the equipment and the material, perhaps at this late date, many months by now may have gone by--perhaps he can't--he isn't careful enough in the job--he begins producing, but perhaps we will say he doesn't work as hard as you would like, so quite often we spend a great deal of time teaching someone, only to find out after some months have passed that he isn't a desirable employee, but is just one of those things.

We must, of course, in order to find out if they will do the job, go through the process of teaching him the equipment and about the materials, so I've gone into this because it will help later on in explaining the termination of Lee Oswald with us, but because of these various facts that I have mentioned, I became familiar with one person in particular down at the employment office, the Texas Employment Commission--the agency.

I, of course, had never met this person, but through phone conversations I explained after many times what I needed, the type person I was looking for--perhaps with an artistic background, perhaps with photographic experience somewhere, in the Army or elsewhere, and I told her the various attributes that I thought a person should have in order to make a success of our work.

Mr. JENNER. Would you try to reconstruct this now--just assume you are on the telephone now.

Mr. GRAEF. Okay.

Mr. JENNER. And carry yourself back out there to a year and a half ago?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'll try to do that. So, I called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person I was looking for and the type of experience that I was looking for, so I called her, and her name was Louise Latham.

Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Texas Employment Agency, do you know?

Mr. GRAEF. I don't know--I really don't know--a very charming person over the phone.

Mr. JENNER. And, had you put in this call, let's say--how long before she sent, if she did, Lee Harvey Oswald over to see you--when did you start out to seek this employee, is what I am getting at?

Mr. GRAEF. Let me refer to this employee questionnaire.

Mr. JENNER. Does that have an exhibit number on it?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes, No. 427.

Mr. JENNER. Commission Exhibit No. 427.

Mr. GRAEF. Now, it says here he was employed October 12, 1962, so I would say probably 2 weeks prior to that time, roughly about the 1st of October was when I placed the call.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether anybody other than or in addition to Lee Oswald had been sent you before he came?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't remember the sequence--whether Lee was first or whether Lee was last. As I recall, there were about two or three--all of them young men, average young men--Lee Oswald was average.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have in your files--what do you call that that is marked "Commission Exhibit 427"?

Mr. GRAEF. I am holding in my hand this same Commission Exhibit No. 427, and it's an employee identification questionnaire of our firm Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. Would you have had a card, would it still be retained in your files for the other people you might have interviewed?

Mr. GRAEF. No. No--I wouldn't. Normally, when the Texas Employment Commission sends someone over for an interview, I meet them and we sit down, of course, and discuss their past history, employment history, and the various personal histories of that person. The Texas Employment Commission sends a card over from them, telling who the bearer is and it also has a space on it that says "Was this employee hired?", which you will mail back to them and "Not hired," and the reason why you didn't hire them, and in every case, as I recall, the people whom I did not hire, I would just mark it in the appropriate space and drop it in the mail and it is returned to them.

So, of these two or three young men who came to me after--at this period, about October 1, Lee was one of them and seemed to me to be the most serious and a shade--I'm searching for the right word--when I say "serious" and just a shade more determined, perhaps--he seemed like he had had a slight edge on the other one or two fellows that came there, and I thought--well----

Mr. JENNER. I take it that you personally did the interviewing of all of these?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Including Lee Harvey Oswald?