Chapter XV: Part 15

When he had to make these things over, he would be mad at himself. He would go back and shoot it again, but it is obvious that he was taking twice as long when these things happened to produce one job because he was having to do the whole thing over again to get it right, that it couldn't be tolerated for much longer.

About this time, I think it was in April, we had a fluctuation in business--it dropped and I thought, "Well, this is the time to let Lee Harvey Oswald--to let him go," so I called him back into the darkroom one day and I said, "Lee, business is"----

Mr. JENNER. When you say this conversation took place in the darkroom, was the room dark?

Mr. GRAEF. There were dim red lights.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you call him back in the darkroom rather than some other place?

Mr. GRAEF. At the time it was the--I didn't want to embarrass the boy.

Mr. JENNER. This was a private talk?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Out of the presence of anyone other than yourself and Oswald?

Mr. GRAEF. Out of the presence of anyone else--yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that was one of the reasons for your calling him back there?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't have a private office. My desk is with the other people in the production of work, and I don't have any private facilities where I can talk to someone, and back in the corner of the darkroom, it is illuminated by red lights.

Mr. JENNER. Are these infrared lights? Is that what you mean?

Mr. GRAEF. No; they are just red neon lights that provide dim illumination, but at this particular spot in the darkroom, I can see when anyone is within 15 or 20 feet of me, and, of course, I could lower my voice and not embarrass him when I released him, so I said, "Lee, come on back, I would like to talk to you." So, we went back, and I said, "Lee, I think this is as good a time as any to cut it short." I said, "Business is pretty slow at this time, but the point is that you haven't been turning the work out like you should. There has been friction with other people," and so on.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say when you said that?

Mr. GRAEF. Nothing. And I said, "This is, I think, the best time to just make a break of it." I believe I gave him a few days, and I said, "Feel free, of course, to make any calls of the Texas Employment Commission where you came from originally," and I told him, "I think you tried to do the work, but I just don't think that you have the qualities for doing the work that we need."

And, there was no outburst on his part. He took this the whole time looking at the floor, I believe, and after I was through, he said, "Well, thank you." And he turned around and walked off.

Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion in your career to discharge other employees?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And recalling the reaction of other employees, could you tell us your present view or opinion as to your experience--comparing your experience with the discharge of Lee Harvey Oswald with the discharge of other employees--was it usual and normal?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I think it was just about the usual. He might have been perhaps a shade more quiet. There were no questions asked about why I thought he wasn't qualified.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was aware of it?

Mr. GRAEF. I think he was aware of it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. No outbursts of any kind?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Anything said about what might happen if he sought references in any future employment?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I told him--I volunteered the information. I said, "Lee, if there is another job that you find, I'll be glad to give you a recommendation, a good recommendation," because--I told him, "I think you have tried," and I think he had. It would have been, of course, with reservations--any new employer that had called me for a recommendation, I would have had to say something about his relations with other employees.

Mr. JENNER. And that would have been somewhat negative?

Mr. GRAEF. That's correct; but he did try to become a worker. It wasn't that he wasn't industrious--he was not lazy. He, to the best of his ability, tried but the ability was not there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it then from your recital that his discharge was for the reasons you have given and not because of any past history that you discovered with respect to him?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. And, throughout all of this employment, you had no information with regard to his past history other than you have related to us?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes, yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map Service. We do a certain type of work for the Engineers, I believe, but I couldn't be sure about that.

Mr. JENNER. Is that in your department or under your supervision or direction?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention any scuttlebutt among employees as to any past history of his?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I think if it had, I would have in fact--I am very positive I would have investigated that.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of the reports to you, which you have detailed to me, include anything with regard to any political theories or arguments or positions that he took as with respect to other employees?

Mr. GRAEF. No; none. None that came to my attention. There was never any political conversations that I heard about him or between him, or that I heard him talking with the people or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. I think I have no more questions. I would like to put, however, the general question that I do put in all these depositions. Is there anything that might occur to you that I have not stimulated to ask you but that you think--any incident that occurred or any circumstance that you think might possibly be of help to the Commission in their investigation of this man and of the overall incident we are investigating?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I really don't think so. Of course, the whole thing is just a tragic, unbelievable thing.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. GRAEF. That you rub shoulders with someone who did such a thing is just fantastic.

Mr. JENNER. If he did it?

Mr. GRAEF. It's just unbelievable--it's still hard to believe that you were in such close contact with anyone that took part in the events.

Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything in my off-the-record discussion we have had, and there have been substantially none, that took place during that interlude that I have failed to bring out?

Mr. GRAEF. I might add this--I'll let you repeat that question in a moment.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. GRAEF. This thought occurred--I was trying to think a moment ago what I was going to do, because there was something that I wanted to make mention of for what it's worth, is that at this point during his employment with us, he was very anxious for overtime work.

Mr. JENNER. Is this the 4- or 5-month period you are talking about now?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's correct, which if I may assume, he needed the money. It was invariably Friday afternoon--and Saturday, of course, is an overtime day to us and quite frequently we run Saturday and Saturday work we do at time and a half, which comes into play, and in fact, invariably Friday afternoon he would volunteer and ask if we needed him the next day. Then, unfortunately, of course, as I have mentioned, his work didn't come up to the quality that we needed so it was very, very seldom that we ever brought him in unless we were in a real bad--had an urgent work that absolutely had to go, but he desperately wanted to be called in on Saturday for overtime work.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his ability to operate an automobile arose?

Mr. GRAEF. No; as far as I know, he never had one.

Mr. JENNER. And there was no occasion in his work when he might have been called upon to drive an automobile?

Mr. GRAEF. No.

Mr. JENNER. So, you have no impression--I gather--as to whether he could or could not drive an automobile or how well he might do so?

Mr. GRAEF. No. The only impression that I have is that he rode the bus almost everywhere.

I know--I'm pretty sure he did not have a car and he used to ride the bus.

Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456, and ask you to examine those and tell me if the man who is depicted in those photographs bears any similarity or likeness to the man you knew as Lee Harvey Oswald? You might spread them out and it would give you a better view.

Mr. GRAEF. Very slight; but to anyone who knew Lee, they would immediately say "No."

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him attired in the fashion that the man shown on those photographs is attired?

Mr. GRAEF. No; I don't think I ever did. Now, toward the end of his employment, most of the time he used to wear a white T-shirt to work. I think he might have had a dark jacket over it.

Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket--lightweight?

Mr. GRAEF. Something perhaps--but it was rather dark, I think, but not like this.

Mr. JENNER. Is there in any discussion we have had possibly off the record which you regard as inconsistent with any testimony you have given here, and if so, what?

Mr. GRAEF. Like what, for example? Now, when you say "inconsistent with any testimony," what do you mean?

Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, that you might have said off the record that you were uncertain as to whether--when you first interviewed him he was, in fact, with a suit coat with a shirt and tie, whereas, when I asked you on the record you were pretty firm about that sort of thing?

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty firm. No, no; all of this testimony that I have given you is factual and true.

Mr. JENNER. There is nothing you have said on the record that is inconsistent with anything you have said off the record?

Mr. GRAEF. No--it hasn't been--anything that I have said has been an opinion or formulations--it has just been--it is just strictly as I remember it.

Mr. JENNER. And to your best recollection, I have brought everything that was said off the record that is pertinent here and have got it on the record.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, you are certainly welcome.

Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition, if you wish to, or you may waive it. You have that right, and you may waive it if you wish. The reporter will let you know one way or the other.

Mr. GRAEF. What is the machinations of getting a copy?

Mr. JENNER. When Miss Oliver has prepared a copy, you may call in and find out from Mr. Sanders and come down and read it, as you see fit and sign it.

Mr. GRAEF. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Or, you may waive that. If you wish a copy of your testimony, you may obtain by arrangement with Miss Oliver. She will furnish you one at whatever her usual prices are.

Mr. GRAEF. I think--I don't see any need for it--for signing it. There it is.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, as these reports reached you from your employees, arousing your attention to the fact that some friction had arisen and was continuing as between him and other employees, what, if anything, did you do to acquaint yourself better with those circumstances and in that connection, tell us whether you talked with others, whether you talked with Lee--in general, just what did you do in that connection?

Mr. GRAEF. The rumors of these flareups, we'll say, I heard about them going back--we'll say, to some 3 months. He was employed with us for a total of 6 months. For about the first 3 months he was in training and it was only after this 3 months' period that he began to be in a close association with the other employees, so about this time, we'll say, the friction began between him and the other employees.

Now, several weeks went past--I'm sure--when these things came to pass and when I heard about them, and this flareup that I witnessed, and I don't know who was to blame, whether it was Lee or whether it was the other fellow. I happened to be on the other side of the darkroom at the time and the two people were both, as I recall, trying to develop film in the same pan, and one was getting in the way of the other one, and ordinarily there is no--we don't have any trouble about this. All the jobs are rush, and you just make allowances and move over a little bit and both of you get in there together.

This, I think, is what caused this particular thing, but Lee was quick to--he had a chip on his shoulder, and he made--who spoke first, I really don't recall, but somebody said something about, "How about moving over a little bit?" And the other fellow said, "What do you mean, I have been here first," and one thing led to another, but it was over just about as quickly as it began, so this was the first time that this became evident, but as I said, couldn't actually lay it as it being Lee's fault. Now, these rumors come to me quite frequently. In the whole department we may have 18 or 20 people.

Mr. JENNER. How many people work under you?

Mr. GRAEF. Directly under me, the day shift is seven or eight, and we have a few on the night shift also. We work quite close to this other department--which does photographic work also, and we have a sink on our side for camera work and then there is a developing sink back to back, at which this other department develops their work.

Mr. JENNER. What do they do?

Mr. GRAEF. Setting type photographically. So, out of these many people, some of them are more prone to carry tales and others, of course, and you have to weigh the evidence, we'll say, and some of the people that had come to me during this time and just mentioned, or we'll say, scuttlebutt that went around about Lee being hard to get along with, where, in fact, some of the people are hard to get along with themselves, so you just had to more or less try to get along with everyone. We all have to do that and it wasn't until this scene happened that I saw how Lee's temper worked, but the--the overwhelming mass of evidence--everyone it seemed no one liked him.

Mr. JENNER. He had no friends?

Mr. GRAEF. No friends.

Mr. JENNER. And he didn't appear to you to seek to cultivate any?

Mr. GRAEF. By this time, you see, this 6 months had elapsed and at this time work was suffering and he at this time--it was definite that he had no friends. Everyone couldn't be wrong, and so all of this evidence weighed against the decision to keep him on as an employee.

Mr. JENNER. It culminated in his discharge.

Mr. GRAEF. In his dismissal?

Mr. JENNER. All right, I guess that's about it. Thank you.

Mr. GRAEF. Well, I hope I have been of whatever help I have been.

Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to inconvenience you in this matter.

Mr. GRAEF. If I can be of further assistance, please call me and I will be glad to do what I can.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF DENNIS HYMAN OFSTEIN

The testimony of Dennis Hyman Ofstein was taken at 2 p.m., on March 30, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., counsel for the Commission, and this is Miss Oliver. Would you rise and be sworn?

Do you promise on this deposition which I am about to take of you to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Miss Oliver, this is Dennis Hyman Ofstein [spelling] D-e-n-n-i-s H-y-m-a-n O-f-s-t-e-i-n. Is that correct?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Ofstein, you received, did you, a letter from Mr. Rankin?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. General counsel for the Commission, with which were enclosed three documents, a copy of Executive Order 11130 creating the Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is an order of the President of the United States, Lyndon B. Johnson.

There is a copy of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission and a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission which we adopt.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you appear voluntarily?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The Commission, as you have learned, from those documents, is investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and to give particular attention to Lee Harvey Oswald and anybody who had any contact with him during his lifetime. It is our information that you had some contact with him, or with people who had contact with him. The Commission is interested in that contact, and I would like to ask you questions about it, if I may.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Very well, sir.

Mr. JENNER. First, tell me a little bit about yourself. Are you a former serviceman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what branch of service did you serve?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was in the Army, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And when did you go in and when were you discharged?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I went in in August, I believe, in 1957, and I was discharged November 1960.

Mr. JENNER. That was an honorable discharge, I assume?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And do you reside in Dallas or Fort Worth?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time.

Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your home town?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I reside in Dallas at the present time; I was born in St. Louis and I have lived in Florida for the most part of my life.

Mr. JENNER. And are you a married man?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. JENNER. That would take us back into 1961--in any event?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what has been the nature of your business, occupation, employment, profession or vocation?

Mr. OFSTEIN. For the past 2 years I have been with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman.

Mr. JENNER. As a cameraman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your work immediately prior to that, by whom were you employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was working for Sinclair Refining Co. at a local service station.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald at any time during his lifetime?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Here in Dallas?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Start at the very beginning, and in your own words tell the circumstances under which that acquaintance arose.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well; it was when he became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as a cameraman trainee and he was in the same department I was and due to the fact that I had worked there and knew a little bit about the job, I was--as well as everyone else down there--expected to help him and more or less--not supervise, but kind of keep my eye on him and help him along.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I am 24.

Mr. JENNER. You were born in 1940?

Mr. OFSTEIN. 1939, sir.

Mr. JENNER. 1939, and Mr. Oswald's birth date was October 18, 1939, you--so you were the same age?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were already employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall when Lee Oswald came there, were you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Give me your best recollection as to when that was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems like it was October or November 1962.

Mr. JENNER. I have his employment card here--October 12, 1962--does that sort of square with your recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; roughly.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when you became employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are still employed by them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You were initially a trainee as well as Oswald?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And how did you become employed there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was laid off by Sinclair Refining Co. and I registered with the Texas Employment Commission.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody in particular handle that over there at the Commission?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall who the person was at the time.

Mr. JENNER. A lady or a gentleman?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name Latham--Louise Latham trigger any recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The name is familiar--whether she was there or not--I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Is that name familiar in connection with the Texas Employment Commission?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent there----

Mr. JENNER. And with whom did you talk when you came there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was there early for the appointment and I talked to Leonard Calverly, who was the daytime foreman in the camera department, and he showed me around the place, and he talked to me and told me the final decision would be up to Mr. Graef.

Mr. JENNER. That's G-r-a-e-f [spelling]?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He is head of what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He is a supervisor in charge of the camera department, and I talked with him at approximately 9 o'clock and he seemed satisfied--he would give me a try as a trainee, and wanted to know when I could come to work, and I told him that morning and I went to work immediately.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any experience in the use of cameras?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not in the same type of camera--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What experience had you had in camera work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It had been strictly pleasure photography with smaller cameras.

Mr. JENNER. Had you done any developing work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You had had some darkroom experience?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Very much?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not a whole lot--no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of these gentlemen inquire of you as to your experience in that direction?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Both of them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall--I know that Mr. Graef did.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of photography work does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It's strictly commercial--advertising type of photography. We make posters and poster effects and different types of effects for different advertising media--newspaper, magazines, and so forth--billboards.

Mr. JENNER. What kind of cameras are employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not sure of the brand names we have.

Mr. JENNER. I'm thinking more of the size, weight, whether they are portable or aren't portable, or whether they are fixed or aren't fixed.

Mr. OFSTEIN. They are fixed, they move on a track to determine the size of the copy that is photographed, and they have fixed mounted lenses in the walls.

Mr. JENNER. And you move from one lens to another, is that the way?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; you mount the copy to be photographed on the board and you move that board, and the board that you put your film on--to get it different sizes.

Mr. JENNER. What is the character of the training?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Mainly they start you out with doing small jobs--just normal--what we call straight shots. It amounts to getting a size and photographing it and developing it, opaquing the negatives, and making nice clean prints, and then as you progress you do more difficult type work.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what lithography is, lithographing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I have heard the term--that's all.

Mr. JENNER. Making metal plates?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or reproductions?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any lithographic work done by that company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain--I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Do they do any printing themselves?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is the nature of that kind of work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They have the photosetter machine which does the printing on film usually for a transfer to some other surface. They have hot metal, they have linotype and monotype, and, of course, they have reprint presses.

Mr. JENNER. And you were trained to do what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Strictly camera work.

Mr. JENNER. Did your work extend beyond the taking of the photographic imprint on a film?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; we were taught also to set filmotype, which is a process of writing out on a sheet of paper from a film negative that's already been put into a roll and making words and sentences and so on and photographing that, also, distortion of negatives and different types of copy.

Mr. JENNER. What do you do to the distortion work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they have different processes--they have what they call perspective, which entails turning the copy board and the film mounting board at different angles from each other to make one end look smaller going off at a distance, and they have what is known as stretches and squats, which entails putting mirrors before the copy board to make a character or letter taller or smaller and doing circles.

Mr. JENNER. They would have a magnifying or contracting mirror?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and circles which is done with a circle device using a film positive to curve a straight line around and, of course, they have their different reproduction effects, such as the screens and the halftones.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether this company has done any confidential or secret work for any agency of the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't know the nature of the classification. I do know that they do work for the U.S. Government.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever participated in any of that work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only during strike--approximately 2 weeks.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether Lee Oswald did?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir--I'm sure he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Is that work confined to those in the plant who are particularly skilled or trained to do that particular kind of work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had Lee Oswald at the time his employment there was terminated reached that degree of skill?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that is handled by a different department altogether.

Mr. JENNER. And how long had you been employed there when Lee Harvey came with the company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was hired in March, 2 years ago, 1962--I would say approximately 9 months.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall when he came--about approximately when?

Mr. OFSTEIN. October 1962.

Mr. JENNER. You became acquainted with him when he became employed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any social contact with him during all the period of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in contact with him because of the employment you had and the work you were doing and the work he was doing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever become sufficiently acquainted with him that you either sought to visit him or invite him to visit you, or did an occasion arise ultimately in which you thought your acquaintance was sufficient or your interest in him or his wife or both of them was sufficient that you sought to have some social contact?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. On the day that his employment terminated, I told him that I hoped he found another job and we would have to get together sometime, being he was married and I was, and I believe it was approximately a week later when I wrote a letter to him inviting him and his wife to come and visit us some Saturday evening and have social activities.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any response to that letter?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; none whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. From the day his employment terminated to the present, have you seen him in person?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. From that day until the present, had you had any contact at all with him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; only my attempt at inviting him and his wife to the house.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that circumstance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. How did you know where to write him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He gave me his address--post office box.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the number?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I have it with me.

Mr. JENNER. You made a note of it, I take it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I wrote it down.

Mr. JENNER. And you still have it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe so--yes, sir; Post Office Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give you a telephone number?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, do you know about Oswald's ability to operate a motor vehicle?

Mr. OFSTEIN. None whatsoever.

Mr. JENNER. Did your acquaintance reach the point at which he talked with you some of his past history?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Let's start back to the time he became employed in October 1962, and you start in your own words and tell us your acquaintance with him, how that acquaintance ripened, if it did ripen, the nature of your work with him at the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall plant.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, after he became employed, we worked more or less side by side while he was training and everything, and the contact I had with him--it was necessary to teach him how to operate the cameras and how to opaque negatives and make clean prints and just the general work around there.

Mr. JENNER. Now, sticking right at that point--what was his skill and acquaintance in that connection when he first started?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he seemed to take a great interest in it as far as skill went--it was, I would say, at the beginning approximately the same as anyone else's would have been.

Mr. JENNER. Little or none?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Little or none; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, proceed.

Mr. OFSTEIN. He did improve somewhat, as far as I could see, but never turned out extreme quality work such as is required to leave the plant, and, of course, that is what caused the termination of his employment. It must have been about January of 1963, that--of course--at the time, he was having trouble getting along with people. He wasn't the outgoing type who tried to make friends. You had to more or less stick with him and be with him constantly to even talk to him freely. He would shove his way in places, he wouldn't wait his turn at certain machines, and the reason I got along with him as well as I did, possibly, is because I am outgoing and I try to get along with everybody, and I believe that their own disposition is theirs. If I don't like it, I don't exactly have to put up with it, but I feel that there are people who don't like me for things I do, so I overlooked most of his bad traits and things that most of the other fellows got upset about and mad about. And, we talked occasionally and he wanted to know at one point if it was possible to make an enlargement of a normal negative there such as is taken in a small camera and I told him, "Yes," and showed him how to do it, and he had one picture that he wanted to enlarge. It showed a river of some sort, with a fairly nice looking building in the background, and I asked him if that was in Japan because he had been stationed in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. He told you he had?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and he said, "No, it wasn't in Japan," but he wouldn't elaborate on it, and I found out later that it was in Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. How much later did you find that out?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Possibly the latter part of February, or the middle part of February 1963.

Mr. JENNER. How did you find that out?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He came down with some Russian literature one day.

Mr. JENNER. Russian literature--what was the form of this literature?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper, I believe, at the time.

Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Printed in Russian hieroglyphics?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; yes.

Mr. JENNER. In other words, it was a Russian language publication?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; published in the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. Did he show it to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He didn't exactly show it to me, but it was in plain view.

Mr. JENNER. Did you look at it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about it that would tend to identify it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely clearly--it was possibly a copy of the Soviet White Russian, I believe is what the title of it is, but I noticed that there--we had a conversation about the paper.

Mr. JENNER. Was anybody present in addition to yourself and Oswald?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was the substance of the conversation, first?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he saw me looking at the paper and he wanted to know if I understood anything that was written there, as I had written down a couple of characters and I told him I read a little and understood a little, and therefore I asked him if he could read the paper, and he said, "Yes," he understood Russian very well, and that was possibly the thing that brought our friendship or acquaintanceship closer to being a friendship than anyone else's down there.

Mr. JENNER. You discovered a common interest other than your work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Where had you learned to decipher Russian characters?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I learned this while I was in the service.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you stationed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was stationed in Germany for the active part of my tour. I was stationed in California for my training and at the various and sundry other little towns for basic training and temporary status.

Mr. JENNER. Did you take any work in the language school out in California at Monterey?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What language did you study there?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me how that came about?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, when I went in the service I was interested in radio--I was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that I could get to radio would be possibly with the Army security agency, so I signed up, and after basic training I went to Fort Devens, Mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training I should have, and I was given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three languages to take, and Russian was my first choice and I was sent to Monterey to study.

Mr. JENNER. And how long were you at Monterey?

Mr. OFSTEIN. One year.

Mr. JENNER. And was that entire year spent in the study of the Russian language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And I assume, with an entire year's study at that special school of Monterey, you acquired a facility with the language, did you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not as well as I should have; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And why was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was a little on the young side then and I was interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to town and the availability of recreation there deterred my studies.

Mr. JENNER. I see. You acquired some facility in reading Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And some facility in speaking Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was this conversational Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about writing Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; all that was covered.

Mr. JENNER. And at the end of the 1 year what happened?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I was sent to an oversea duty station in Germany and completed my tour there.

Mr. JENNER. Did you pursue your study of the Russian language at anytime from the time you left Monterey until the present?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I interrupted you--you told him you could handle a few characters?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you then tell him about your study of the Russian language when you were in the Army?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he asked me where I had learned it and I told him I had picked it up during the time I was in the service, as well as the German language, which I picked up while I was stationed in Germany, and I asked him where he had learned to read Russian and he wouldn't elaborate on it at first, and after a period of time--I don't know how long--he did admit to me that he had been in the Soviet Union and my assumption was possibly that he had worked as an agent of the United States at the first.

Mr. JENNER. What did he tell you, if he ever did, as to where he acquired his knowledge of and facility with the Russian language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He never did elaborate on whether he learned it in the Soviet Union or before or just how he had picked it up.

Mr. JENNER. He was uncommunicative on that subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. More or less; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him directly?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he did not respond?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to converse with him in Russian or he with you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. We said a few words in Russian to each other--I would more or less ask him or tell him, "Good morning" and ask him how he was feeling or some other things like that, and he would respond and usually make a criticism on my ability to speak the language.

Mr. JENNER. He would make criticism--was that a friendly criticism on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It wasn't ridicule?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. And he seemed very happy of the fact that I was able to speak a little Russian, and he seemed to enjoy that more than any of the other things down there.

Mr. JENNER. With regard to your facility with the language, did you have a greater facility to understand it when spoken by someone else than you did with reading it or speaking it yourself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And did he speak to you in Russian from time to time?

Mr. OFSTEIN. From time to time--very seldom.

Mr. JENNER. You say he asked you to help him make an enlargement of a print or of a film?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a print and he wanted a negative on it, so I got him a continuous tone negative, which is the type required for reproduction.

Mr. JENNER. Could you tell us what you mean by that--somebody has a positive print?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that's what he had?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And it showed a river and a nice building in the background?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he wanted it enlarged?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I shot a negative of it from a masking film, which is the type film required to reproduce a photograph such as is used by most people of children or their houses or their cars, and showed him how to put it in the enlarger and blow it up and the type of paper to use, the different contrasts of paper, and he made the enlargement of the print. It was a pretty rough print--it had been torn at one time.

Mr. JENNER. You mean his print had been torn?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a photograph or a postcard, or was it something that you were under the impression he had taken?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Himself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. With a camera--what I would call a Brownie camera?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That sort of thing?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. All right; go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. After I showed him how to do that, he experimented with it a little bit and got what he thought was possibly the best reproduction he could have gotten of it, and several times thereafter he made enlargements of pictures that he had while he was in the service, pictures that he said were taken in Japan, showing snow on the ground in bivouac areas and so on with himself in several of them.

Mr. JENNER. Were there any more pictures of Russia, taken in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not that I noticed. If he had any, he didn't show them.

Mr. JENNER. But he did not have the facility himself to make these enlargements, you had to show him how to do it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. About what period of time was this with respect to when he started working and when his employment was terminated?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I would just make a guess that it was about 1 month after he started, because he seemed interested in whether the company would allow him to reproduce his own pictures, and I told him that while they didn't sanction that sort of thing, that people do it now and then. They do it occasionally and end up reproducing a couple of pictures that wasn't anything out of the way.

Mr. JENNER. He did reach a point where he told you something of his background?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. His past history?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that he was in the Marine Corps and that after he disclosed that he had been in the Soviet Union, he told me that that had been after his tour of service with the Marines, and again he wouldn't elaborate on how he was there or why he was there, and as I say, at that time I presumed he was possibly with the U.S. Government or on a scholarship basis or some other basis and just didn't want to talk about it, so I didn't pursue it any further, and I discarded this idea after I learned that he had a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. When did that develop?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That must have been about the middle or the latter part of February of 1963.

Mr. JENNER. How did you learn that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He brought it up one day when we were speaking of the Russian language and I was talking to him about it--or we were talking together, I should say, about the Soviet Union, and he was telling me various things about their way of life over there and he mentioned that he had married a Russian girl, a White Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Can you tell us now what he said about what his life over there and his reactions to it--what did he say in that whole area in substance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, the main thing--he dwelled on their difference of life--mainly to do with their food and the habits of the people and the military installations and the disbursement of the military units.

He mentioned that they used caviar over there on bread the way we use butter, because of the lack of butter and dairy products, and how you would find things like loaves of bread on the tables in the cafes and restaurants the way we would find salt and pepper over here. He also mentioned about the Russian guards. At this time he disclosed that the building in the photograph was some military headquarters and that the guards stationed there were armed with weapons and ammunition and had orders to shoot any trespassers or anyone trying to enter the building without permission.

He also mentioned about the disbursement of the military units, saying that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry divisions and various units the way we do in the United States, that they would have all of their aircraft in one geographical location and their tanks in another geographical location, and their infantry in another, and he mentioned that in Minsk he never saw a vapor trail, indicating the lack of aircraft in the area. He also said about the Russian people that they were sentimental or serious people and somewhat simple, that----

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me; I just wondered if you misspoke--you said they were sentimental and serious, did you intend both of those words?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I was more or less searching for the right words. I remember he said they were simple and more or less serious minded. They were more mindful of world events than he thought the American people were, but that they didn't have the war hysteria, as he called it, that the people in the United States did.

He said whenever you saw any indication in the Russian newspapers of war, that the Soviet people thought it was relatively close because of the lack of publication about it, such as at the Lebanon crisis and he mentioned that he had been in Moscow, I believe, and a couple of other cities other than Minsk.

Mr. JENNER. Did he name any others besides Moscow and Minsk, did he name any others?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He possibly did, but I don't recall what they would have been.

Mr. JENNER. Is it your recollection that he did mention some others, though you cannot recall the names; or, are you uncertain that he did mention any others at all that he had been in?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not extremely certain at all; it's possible that he did.

Mr. JENNER. All right; when you were speaking freely without any prompting on my part, you mentioned Minsk and Moscow and others--now that I have pressed you a little, what is your present recollection on that score now?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That he had mentioned them, but exactly what they were, whether they were large towns or whether they were small towns--I don't recall--whether he just visited them or had some purpose in being there, he never did mention that at all.

He mentioned that he was in Moscow for the May Day parade at one time and that the Soviets made a big show of power of their latest tanks and planes and so forth, and I asked him at one time about his freedom of movement, and he said that he had complete freedom of movement over there, that the MVD, I believe it was, had inquired of his neighbors about him and had talked to him on one occasion or two, but that they didn't put any holds on him or restrict him from any areas or anything like that, and I believe it was about this time that he mentioned he had married the White Russian girl.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about where the Russian girl he married was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to where she was?

Mr. OFSTEIN. My impression was that he was living with her--that he had her here in the United States.

Mr. JENNER. But he didn't say anything that would lead you now to think or recall the statement on his part that she was with him in the United States, or is that an assumption on your part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he did mention it. He mentioned that he had gotten several books from the library at times to take home for him and his wife to read.

Mr. JENNER. In his discussions of life in Russia, to the extent you can relate them, did he ever voice any political doctrine or theory?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression as to how he regarded his life in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he didn't think it was the type of life that he wanted to lead.

Mr. JENNER. Did he expand on that to any extent?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, he said that the people there were poor, they worked and made just about enough to buy their clothes and their food; that the only ones who had enough money to buy anything else, any of the luxuries in life, were those who were Communist Party officials or high ranking members in the party, and I asked him at one time if he were a Communist and he said, "No."

Mr. JENNER. Did he voice any criticism of the Communist Party members--did he make any negative remarks?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; only that he didn't think that he would enjoy the Communist way of life.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any views to you with respect to his reaction to the Government of the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; he mentioned the last day he was with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall--I asked him what he was going to do, where he would go to work, and he said he didn't know. He liked the type of work at the company and that he would like to stay with this type of work and he would look around and if he didn't find anything else he could always go back to the Soviet Union, and sort of laughed about it.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think that comment of his with respect to returning to the Soviet Union was jocular?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was sort of a flippant remark--"If I don't get a job here, I can go someplace else," and I mentioned at the time to him of a couple other shops around town that did that kind of work and suggested that he go see them.

Mr. JENNER. What was his response, if any, to that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he might give them a try.

Mr. JENNER. This was at the tail end of his employment with this company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; this was the last day.

Mr. JENNER. How did he appear that day or react to the news which he received that his employment was being terminated?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed like he was calm, just like any other day except that he told me this was his last day with the company and more or less like it was just the end of the job and he was going to try to find another one.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything of whether he had been let out or whether he had quit?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He just said he had been relieved from his duties as cameraman.

Mr. JENNER. Did he express any resentment in that connection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. When he first came with the company, how did he get along with his fellow employees?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not very well--just enough to talk to the people who were working alongside of him to learn what he had to do.

Mr. JENNER. Did those conditions or relations improve as the months went along?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; they worsened.

Mr. JENNER. They worsened?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did they worsen before this Russian language newspaper turned up, or did they really begin to worsen when the Russian language newspaper turned up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They worsened before this.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him every day that he worked?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that you worked?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you had some interest in him as a person?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.