Chapter XXIII: Part 23

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember about what time of the day they arrived?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it must have been around 1:30 or 2 o'clock--the best I remember.

Mr. BELIN. When did you get home that day from your work?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was around 1 o'clock or maybe a little bit after.

Mr. BELIN. At the time you had gotten home, had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. I heard that before I went home.

Mr. BELIN. Did you hear that the President had died before you went home?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. So you got home sometime after you had heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. 1029 Young Street.

Mr. BELIN. And is that a business?

Mr. JOHNSON. We have a little restaurant there.

Mr. BELIN. You and your wife have a restaurant there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Was your wife there, too?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we work together.

Mr. BELIN. And did you hear this on the radio?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. Uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for Cotton Belt Railroad. And he called us--called up here and told us. Of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. And Nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio.

Mr. BELIN. He had heard over the radio that the President had been shot?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And then, did you turn on your radio?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. We don't have one there in the place, so we went out in the car and sat there in the car and listened.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And was it while you were sitting in the car that you heard that the President had died?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; we didn't leave until we--it was announced that he was dead.

Mr. BELIN. How soon after that announcement did you leave?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. Then, how long did it take you to get to 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. JOHNSON. It takes us about 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. So that about 10 minutes after you heard on the radio that the President had been shot, you arrived with your wife at 1026 North Beckley?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anyone? Was Mrs. Roberts there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; she was there--at the television.

Mr. BELIN. She was watching television?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Had this man, O. H. Lee, was he there when you got there?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; he had been there just--uh--before we got home.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts tell you that he had?

Mr. JOHNSON. She told us that he come in and got a--uh--little coat or something and just walked in his room and right back out the door.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what was the occasion of Mrs. Roberts telling you that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I--just general conversation, I suppose, you know. Uh--after she found out who it was----

Mr. BELIN. Oh, she told you this after she found out that this was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh-huh; that he did come in and get his coat.

Mr. BELIN. Well, did she tell you this before the police came to your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; because she had no idea. Her sister, I believe it was, called her and told her to turn the television on, that Kennedy had been shot. And she was over there working with the television, tuning it in, when Oswald came in.

Mr. BELIN. When did she tell you this?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--just after we found out that it was--Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. After you found out that O. H. Lee was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. Well, you started to tell me how you found this out. I believe you said the police came sometime after you got home?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. And I saw his picture on television, you know. As quick as we found out who he was, why Mrs. Roberts just said something about that he had come by the house here.

Mr. BELIN. Well, let me backtrack a minute, now.

How soon after you got home did the police come--approximately?

Mr. JOHNSON. I'd say within 30 minutes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. 30 minutes after you got home, the police came. And what did the police say to you?

Mr. JOHNSON. They asked if--uh--we had anyone by that name living there.

Mr. BELIN. By the name of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And what did you tell them?

Mr. JOHNSON. We told them, "No."

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what did they say?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the rooms. They had described his age, his build, and so forth, and we had two more boys rooming there. Uh--and my wife was going to let them see the rooms.

Mr. BELIN. Your wife was going to let them see the rooms that you had--and you had a total of 17 roomers, I believe you said?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, no. I don't know just how many roomers we had. We have 17 bedrooms--but I don't know just, at that time, how many roomers we had.

But, anyway, we had a couple of boys around his age that had moved in just a few days before, and, so, she was going to let them see their rooms.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And then what happened?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I saw his picture on television and I hollered at them and told them. They were out in the back, started around the house to the--uh--basement where these boys room. The bedrooms are all in the basement. And they were going back there.

And--uh--I just called them and told them, I said, "Why, it's this fellow that lives in here."

Mr. BELIN. You told them that you had seen the picture of this man on television?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. And did you tell them what this man was known to you as?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What did they say?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, they wanted to see the records, and we showed them--the register, I mean--and we showed them the register.

And then they searched his room.

Mr. BELIN. You showed them the register with this name of O. H. Lee?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's right.

Mr. BELIN. When was it, after that, that Mrs. Roberts said that he had been there that day?

Mr. JOHNSON. It was along about--during the conversation with these--uh--men.

Mr. BELIN. Did she see his picture on television at the same time you did?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did she say anything about him being O. H. Lee--or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--yes. We all--uh--were just discussing it, you know. And she told him--I believe she did--or my wife did. Said, "Well, that's the reason we didn't understand who they were looking for--because we didn't know him as Oswald."

Mr. BELIN. All right. Who recognized his face on television first? You or Mrs. Roberts?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe I was the one--best I remember.

Mr. BELIN. Was Mrs. Roberts looking at television at the same time you were then, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we were all talking--talking, like I say, to the officers and so forth. And--uh--I believe though that she was looking at it at the same time I was. My wife had just stepped out of the house with the officers.

Mr. BELIN. Now, what did Mrs. Roberts say about this man having been at the home earlier that day--this O. H. Lee, which they had identified as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. She just--uh--I believe she told them that he came in and got a little--uh--sport coat, or some sort of a little coat, and slipped it on and went right back out. And she said that she made the remark that he--said, "You must be in a hurry"--and he didn't say anything; went on out the door.

And the next thing we knew or heard of him was after Tippit was shot.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else she said about Lee Harvey Oswald's visit to your home?

Mr. JOHNSON. No. That's just about it.

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe Lee Harvey Oswald at all? What kind of a person was he?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he was nice enough, I'd say, as a roomer because he always kept his room nice and he was very well-behaved. He didn't--uh--talk to anyone. He might speak to you when he came in and he might not. I suppose it was according to the mood he was in, or something, I never did think too much about it--because--uh--we have so many roomers anyway that I don't pay too much attention.

Mr. BELIN. Did he drink at all?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of. I don't--if he ever did drink a bottle of beer, I never did know it; never did smell it, or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Did he smoke cigarettes--do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was right-handed or left-handed?

Mr. JOHNSON. [Pausing before reply] No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he stay out late at night or was he generally home relatively early in the evening?

Mr. JOHNSON. He was home--uh--usually right after work and just--uh--I suppose he'd go out and eat or maybe to the washateria or somewhere like that. If he was ever gone any other than this--the night before the assassination, I didn't know it. It was after we had already gone to bed, if he did leave.

Mr. BELIN. What time did he leave for work in the morning, do you know?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, around 7:30, something like that. Now, I wouldn't be sure because we leave out real early and I was never there. But I--I think that they said--Mrs. Roberts, I believe, or some of them--said he left around 7:30. Now, I wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not he took his lunch to work with him?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don't.

Mr. BELIN. You don't know?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there a bus that goes by or near your house that goes near to where he worked?

Mr. JOHNSON. The bus comes right by the house.

Mr. BELIN. What bus is that?

Mr. JOHNSON. The Beckley bus.

Mr. BELIN. The Beckley bus? Does it stop right in front of your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. It stops right--uh--well, my house is the third house from the corner, and it stops right on the corner.

Mr. BELIN. And does that go right to or near Elm and Houston?

Mr. JOHNSON. It goes right by there.

Mr. BELIN. And can you pick up a bus near Elm and Houston to get right back to your house?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I believe it goes right back down--uh--Elm.

Mr. BELIN. Did Lee Harvey Oswald generally stay at your home on weekends?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where he went?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--no; I don't. I just assumed he went home.

Mr. BELIN. By "home," you mean to----

Mr. JOHNSON. Irving. I believe that's where his wife lived.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever talk to you about his wife or family?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; never did.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever hear him make any telephone calls to his wife, or to someone?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, he'd make calls but I never did know who he was calling. Because, like I say, he'd talk in a foreign language all the time.

Mr. BELIN. Were these toll calls, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; so far as I know, he never put in a toll call.

Mr. BELIN. When you call Irving, Tex., is this a toll call, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; it's the same exchange.

Mr. BELIN. You said that you heard him talk in a foreign language. About how often would he make these calls?

Mr. JOHNSON. Most every evening after work.

Mr. BELIN. I believe you said that he generally wasn't there on weekends. Is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Were there some weekends when he might be there--or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any week nights when he wasn't there?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--so far as I know, the night before the assassination, the night of the twenty--that would be the 21st.

Mr. BELIN. Twenty-first of November?

Mr. JOHNSON. The night before the assassination.

Mr. BELIN. Yes.

Was there any other week night, apart from November 21, that he wasn't there--to the best of your recollection?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything to you before November 21 that he wasn't going to be there that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. He paid for the room by the week, didn't he?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. How much was his room rent?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe, $8 a week.

Mr. BELIN. Were your larger rooms more expensive?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. When a larger room became available was this ever told to him, or not?

Mr. JOHNSON. I believe my wife told him but--uh--but he just--said he'd just as soon stay on in that small room, that it was handy and that he'd just stay on.

Mr. BELIN. When a person stayed by the week, did he pay his rent in advance?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. What day of the week would his rent be due?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don't know what day his--Oswald's--was due. They pay--if they move in on a Monday, they pay it--the rent is due on Monday.

Mr. BELIN. From one Monday to the following Monday, is that right?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this one night that he wasn't there. Were there any telephone calls for him on November 21?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I know of.

Mr. BELIN. Did he ever say why he was going home? Did you ever know ahead of time that he was going to Irving that night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever see him after the morning of November 21?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that might be relevant or important?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I can't think of anything else because, like I say, I didn't really know the man.

Mr. BELIN. Is Johnny's Cafe the one that you say you and your wife operate?

Mr. JOHNSON. Johnson's Cafe.

Mr. BELIN. Johnson's Cafe?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; 1029 Young Street.

Mr. BELIN. You own that? I mean, you operate it yourself as proprietor?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. You're kind of a real businessman here. You rent a roominghouse, and you have a cafe, and you have carpenters. Anything else, Mr. Johnson?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I have an apartment house and a little rental property.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about the assassination or about Lee Harvey Oswald, or anything or anyone connected with Oswald or the assassination that you might think would be of help?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; no. I don't.

Mr. BELIN. Since November 22, 1963, have you ever talked to your wife or Mrs. Roberts about Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, yes. You know, we've discussed the thing--and--uh--I suppose you'd say that we're just more or less in shock or something, knowing that he lived there and that a thing like that happened. It's just--and all the publicity of the thing, and so forth.

Mr. BELIN. Has Mrs. Roberts said anything further about her observations of Lee Harvey Oswald to you?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. Do you know where we can locate her at all to talk to her?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I sure don't.

Mr. BELIN. You got a letter, by the way, saying that we would be here to take the deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did Mrs. Roberts leave before she got that letter or after?

Mr. JOHNSON. Why she left before. She's been gone for--I guess--3 weeks, or maybe 4.

Mr. BELIN. Before we start taking your deposition, you and I chatted briefly for a few minutes about your roominghouse, is that correct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you can think of that we talked about that we don't have recorded here on this deposition?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. In our conversation, did you just relate to me all you knew about it, or did I try and lead you to say anything that wasn't true in any way?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. BELIN. You just told me----

Mr. JOHNSON. I told you just what little I know about it.

Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of now?

Mr. JOHNSON. That's about all I know about the man.

Mr. BELIN. One other question; I might ask you if you've ever seen the shirt--Exhibit 150? Did you ever see Oswald wearing this, or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't remember. He did wear sports clothes.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything about the clothes he was wearing?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; because I didn't see him that day.

Mr. BELIN. You didn't see him that day. Well, on any day--for instance, here's another exhibit here--kind of a dark blue jacket--Exhibit 163. Have you ever seen Oswald wearing Exhibit No. 163?

Mr. JOHNSON. I couldn't say.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we certainly thank you, Mr. Johnson, for all of your cooperation. I know this has been time consuming on your part here.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, we've always tried to cooperate because, you know they've brought so much publicity down on us there and we've kinda felt bad about it. So we've just thought the thing out and thought that it could happen to anybody that deals with the public, you know--rents rooms or anything.

Mr. BELIN. By the way--I don't know if I asked you. You can sign the deposition or you can waive the signing of it and just have the court reporter record it as she has it recorded here.

Do you want to sign it or do you just want to waive the signing of it?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it doesn't make any difference because it's----

Mr. BELIN. Well, if it doesn't make any difference to you, will you just then waive the signing of it and save your coming down the second time here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Well, we want you to know that we appreciate the fact that you've had people in and out of your house and everything else.

Mr. JOHNSON. We're glad to help in any way we can, you know.

Mr. BELIN. By the way, I might ask you one question that we forgot. When the police first came on November 22, did they have a search warrant at all or not? Or don't you remember?

Mr. JOHNSON. Uh--they didn't have one at the time, but they called and got one before they went into his room.

Mr. BELIN. They called and got a search warrant before they went in his room?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes. They called over my phone.

Mr. BELIN. Over your phone? You heard them call?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. All right. I believe that's all. Thank you very much, sir.

TESTIMONY OF CLIFTON M. SHASTEEN

The testimony of Clifton M. Shasteen was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Would you rise and take the oath, please?

Mr. SHASTEEN. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Do you swear in your testimony to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I do. Now, I want to tell you before I start--there is some question--I just have to go back from memory.

Mr. JENNER. That's all right. All we mean when we say "the truth" is just to the best of your ability.

Mr. SHASTEEN. When I ever talked to him, I never dreamed I would ever see him again--you see?

Mr. JENNER. Sure. Did you receive a letter from Mr. Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; the chief of police came out yesterday afternoon. He's a good friend of mine, and he came out yesterday evening and had me to call----

Mr. JENNER. The Secret Service--Mr. Sorrels?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, which is a Commission appointed by President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy and all of the circumstances surrounding that tragic event.

The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson's Executive Order 11130, appointing the Commission and fixing its scope of operation and its power. Under the regulations of the Commission, the members of the staff are authorized to take depositions and swear witnesses.

We understand from various sources, FBI reports--that you may possibly have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald in which the Commission is interested and there might be some other information on which we are not immediately advised that may come to your mind.

Mr. JENNER. As I understand it, your full name is Clifford----

Mr. SHASTEEN. Clifton [spelling] C-l-i-f-t-o-n.

Mr. JENNER. M is your initial?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Shasteen. S-h-a-s-t-e-e-n.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You live at 2214 Fairfax in Irving, Tex. As I understand it, you are the owner and operator of Clifton's Barbershop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. At 1321 South Storey in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You are a native of Dallas, are you?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I've been here about 20 years.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's good enough and you are married and have a family and live in Irving, Tex., as indicated?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I understand that in the course of your looking at television on the 22d of November 1963, there occurred to you upon seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered some tonsorial services to Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you just as near as I can remember that day--what happened is the TV shop next to me, in other words, about two doors down----

Mr. JENNER. Next to your business?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I heard it over the radio and went to the house at noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing, but there wasn't anything definite, so I went back to the shop and as I went back to the shop this fellow in the TV shop said, "Why don't you come in and get a TV set and set it up in your shop in there and watch it?" So, I went in and got a TV set and the name didn't mean anything to me when they first mentioned the name.

Mr. JENNER. The name Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over here--the first I remember seeing him to recognize that I had saw the face before was about--over there around 5 o'clock, when I saw him over at the jail or something and I seen him when they come out there and when he looked toward the cameras.

I didn't say anything to anybody. I had before told them, you know, what I said was just a gag--I said, "You can't tell. That guy might live here in Irving." You know how guys pop off or something, but I didn't know a thing about it. I was just going on, but anyhow, when that come on there, there was several in the shop and so I decided when I saw his picture--I remembered him coming in the shop and I just knew that. It finally dawned on me where I had saw him. I knew where he lived. Actually, I knew where the station wagon was that was parked, that I saw him and this lady in, so I just took out of the shop and told the boy, I said, "I'm going to run to the house and I'll be back in a minute."

So, I drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within 4 blocks of that house, and knew then I was not mistaken, that that was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when I came back to the shop--when I got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me up there and said they saw Cliff up there and everybody in that community knows me. When we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about it. All three of the barbers in there have cut his hair, but I cut it more, I guess, than the rest of them did. I think the boy on the front chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of times, but I think I cut his hair three or four times. I don't know just exactly because since then--I have backed up and looked at it and tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just the way it was--when he would come in, he was always disgruntled, and the only time I ever saw him smile--he had on a pair of yellow house shoes and I never saw any like them before.

Mr. JENNER. Sneakers?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and I admired them and I said, "Them looks expensive," and he said, "They are not."

He said, "I gave a dollar and a half for them." I said, "My goodness, where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" And he said, "Down in Old Mexico."

Mr. JENNER. Down in Old Mexico?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And I said, "Man, I'd like to have a pair of them because I have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough that I could build that shoe up and he said, "Well, I'll get you a pair the next time I'm down there," and that is the only time he ever was nice and polite--in the conversation, any time anything would come up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled.

I remember him particularly one time. The barber in the front chair, one Saturday morning, he cut his hair. You know, the barber chair is only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between that and the sink. Well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his hair.

In other words, what he was trying to do--fixing to or wanting to, he just pushed him out. He was just rude and we all remembered that time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or less highstrung type of guy. I mean he is a real good fellow but you wouldn't want to push him too far and I remembered that real well, and I saw him--the only time I remember seeing him, you know, other than just going in the grocery store across the street, Mr. Hutchison's food market, and I was down at the drugstore one night, down at Williamsburg's and he was in there.

Mr. JENNER. Williamsburg's--that's in Irving?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it's down on Rock Island and Rogers Road. And, why I remembered seeing him in there, I knew I couldn't understand his wife, and that was before--I believe it was before she had her baby. The best I remember she was pregnant.

Mr. JENNER. Had you seen her before?

Mr. SHASTEEN. That's the only time I had ever saw her, that I remember. You know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but I didn't pay any attention. Sometimes there were two women with him and I assumed it was Mrs. Paine, but Mrs. Paine has never been in the shop. I have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the corner and I'm trying to think of his name----

Mr. JENNER. On the fifth?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And Westbrook--that old gentleman, I knew him for years, but I don't never call his name and I can't think of it now to save my neck. I would know it if I hear it called, but anyhow, you know, I've stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. I've got some rent houses, you know, and I would get out of the shop and I would go by and see them and I would come by this fellow's house and I would stop there and I saw Mrs. Paine out in the yard and I know all of the people that live around there, nearly, around the Paine's house, but I never had any connection with Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine.

Them is the things there about Oswald that I personally, you know, that I ever paid any attention to and one other time--when the boy in the middle chair cut his hair. It was on Friday night and it was about 5 or 10 minutes to 7, the best I remember. Now, why I am saying this is the fact that I was going to a football game. My shop has a door in the back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and I change clothes back there, and I had the door but, as he came in the front door, I started out--I went out the back. The next morning this boy that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but the boy that works there, and I slipped off and went to the football game--business had kind of slowed up about that time. But anyhow, he really was inquisitive as to where I went. He wanted to know where I was going and what I was going to do--he asked this guy cutting his hair. You see, he didn't think nothing about it then. He just thought maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there.

Of course, there is some other things that happened but I could kick my own self for. There was a 14-year-old boy come in with him a few times, and--not every time, but I know he has been in there as much as two or three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about 3 or 4 days before this incident happened. This kid was in the shop----

Mr. JENNER. Three or four days before November 22?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. This boy was in the shop and the boy in the front chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there is this old saying, "If you haven't heard this you haven't been around barbershops." The guys are always talking about we spend too much money overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is going. They talk that in the barbershop and you hear it until you want to run.

Mr. JENNER. That's right, they solve all the problems of the world.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best I remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there work the night shift, and I think they go to work around 3:30 or 4 o'clock, so, I know it was around 3 or 2:30, or 3.

Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and this kid was in here.

Mr. JENNER. Were you there?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; what I am saying is--after they were doing all this talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. However, I try to keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business and all this talk was going on and I could tell he was listening and directly he said, "I can tell you when you will stop all of this greed and everything."

And I said, "What do you mean, son?" And, he said, "Well, when you have one leader over everyone else." And, he said, leader--he didn't just say country. I remember that--how he said it. And, I said, "What do you mean 'one leader'"? And he said, "Well, when you don't have a leader in every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another" and he said, "Another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going to quit having wars and all this junk." And I said, "Where in the world did you get that kind of stuff?"

He never did answer me, but it made me so--if I knew then what I know now, I would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. Instead, it made me mad, just to be honest about it--I would like to have took one of them razor straps and tore him up. If he had been a 14-year-old boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he got up and left the shop and I haven't heard him since, and I didn't find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. The anger in him saying that is where I did it, and I--the guy that talks like that, I know one thing I should, as Mr. Odum told me, I should have found out where he lived, where he went to school or something, but I didn't do it. It just made me so mad the thing I wanted him to do was get out of there.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum is the FBI agent?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he's one of them, and I know Mr. Odum--he came back. He wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come back several times and I met him several times--I don't know. I will be honest with you--I don't--I know how to call him at any time, but that's where your old temper gets away with you. I realize now that I should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything back to him--I didn't have to agree with him, but I could have found out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and I never give it a thought.

Just like Oswald--I owned the shop and naturally I wanted to see every head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy like Oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude I felt, but I know I was wrong about it, but it's done and there ain't nothing I can do about it.

I just have watched and watched and I don't know a soul to ask, because Oswald is dead and he's the only one I ever saw that kid with--he is the only one that I ever saw that kid with and I don't remember seeing him since that time--I don't know who he was any more than nothing.

Mr. JENNER. How many times--you personally, now, without someone else having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall when he was in your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The 14-year-old boy?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Three times--I know. In other words, I know he came with Oswald the night I'm talking about when he wanted to know where I was going and I went to the back door. You see, I seen them coming in and I did hurry to get out the back door.

Mr. JENNER. The boy came in?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He was with him that night and he was with him one other time.

Mr. JENNER. Can you fix that particular time?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe 3 weeks before that night.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the night you say you were going out to the football game--when was that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. It was Friday night and this was the last time Oswald came in and I'm just saying this as near as I think, but I think it was--in other words--was it Thursday or Friday that the President was killed?

Mr. JENNER. Friday the 22d.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was probably 2 weeks before that.

Mr. JENNER. Two weeks before that?

Mr. SHASTEEN. And it was about Monday night before that when the kid--it could be a week's difference there, but I don't think it is.

Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. This football game incident occurred, you think, 2 weeks prior?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That would be the evening of the 8th of November?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe that's right, just as near right as I can get it.

Mr. JENNER. That was a high school football game on Friday night, as I remember?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; like I say, it could have possibly been 3 weeks prior to that, but I'm almost sure it wasn't. I'm so nearly sure--I would say it was almost for sure.

Mr. JENNER. It could possibly have been the 1st of November but you are pretty sure that it was the 8th?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I just nearly knew it was the 8th, I think it was the 8th and I'll tell you why I think it was the 8th.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he got a haircut about every 2 weeks, and I don't think he ever went over 2 weeks--he either got a haircut on Friday night or Saturday morning, and in running that back through my mind, and I thought about it then and I have since.

Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion was this 14-year-old boy with him?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the football game?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And you did see him and you did see the 14-year-old boy on that occasion?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you know of your own knowledge.

Mr. SHASTEEN. Buddy Lowe, the one that just works part time.

Mr. JENNER. The new man--the middle chair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning, you know, about it and I wondered why I didn't think something about the character, but the next morning, he said, "Man, that guy was really inquisitive about where you were going last night." That guy that come in with him. Of course, we don't know his name from Adam and we have lots of customers that we don't know their names.

Mr. JENNER. When he came in with the 14-year-old boy, did the 14-year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. He just sat in the shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He just come with him. I assumed, and I'm just saying this because I haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than with Oswald, that he doesn't live in Irving.

Mr. JENNER. He did not?

Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know, in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and when I see schoolkids. I'm always kind of wondering if I'm ever going to see him again and I never, had never saw that kid since.

Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that boy since?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut every 2 weeks?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Either on Friday night or on Saturday morning?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And there were occasions when you personally cut his hair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I think I cut it--I know of three times that I cut it and I might have cut it more than that, but I don't think that I did because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss knowing him when he is in your chair.

Mr. JENNER. You cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right?

Mr. SHASTEEN. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And over what period of time----

Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I would say we cut his hair five or possibly six times.

Mr. JENNER. Five or six times?

Mr. SHASTEEN. At least.

Mr. JENNER. Five and possibly six?

Mr. SHASTEEN. At least--being in the barber business and all and studying people and all, they might go an extra week, but ordinarily, you know, in cutting their hair, you can tell about how long they've gone--in other words, if you knew how they cut it before, you can tell just about how long they have gone for a haircut, and that's what I was referring to a while ago, and it was about 2 weeks before that, and the only times I can remember definitely out of the five times and possibly six he was in my shop--I'd say that all the five or six times was in succession either, it might have been--he may have missed some haircuts and one or two in between somewhere in there.

Mr. JENNER. That is, you mean he might have had his hair cut somewhere else?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I'm just trying to figure out this 22d and the 8th--did this hair-cutting go back into the summer?

Mr. SHASTEEN. You know, that's--like I say, that's a saying--to point back, and you know, just to say that that is the first time this guy has come in here--I just can't pinpoint the first time. In other words, it has been hard and I have tried to think, especially after I got that call yesterday evening to come over here. I tried to run that back through my mind and I wouldn't say when was the first time he was in there and of course we have talked about it--me and the barbers, and it seemed to me like there was a dead spot in there. Sometime--maybe a month or 6 weeks that we might not have saw him, be the first time I cut his hair, but the last three haircuts--it seemed to me like he was pretty regular.

Mr. JENNER. What?

Mr. SHASTEEN. He was pretty regular--at the last three.

Mr. JENNER. So, if you had a dead spot, allowing for--let's say getting a haircut somewhere else occasionally, or not coming in precisely at the end of every 2-week period and having in mind that your present recollection is at least five or six occasions, that would run it back into the summertime?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it was. In other words, 2 or 3 or 4 months that we had been seeing him, but I don't know just exactly to the date or nothing.

Mr. JENNER. On how many of these occasions would you say--does your recollection serve you--as to whether he was accompanied by this 14-year-old boy?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Twice--in other words--the only times I remember seeing the boy was twice when he was with him. He was with him the night he got the haircut, the last time he was in the shop, and he was with him before that, the time before that this kid was with him. The two last times he was in the shop, this boy was with him, and that's the only time I ever saw the boy with him, but then about--in other words, what I am saying, he came in on Friday, was--we'll say it is the 8th there and then a week from this coming Monday the boy was in and got a haircut, but Oswald wasn't with him. The boy came in by himself and that tries to contradict what I said that I don't think he lived in Irving, but why I said I don't think he lived in Irving, I have never saw him before and I have been there 4 years and I have seen so many kids grow up and I know their names, but I know their faces, but I just have never saw him before, and that's one of those times that you are sorry that you, like I said, let your temper get away. Since then I have really wished--if I had done something, because this kid in my estimation, even though he is warped in his thinking, and I think he is warped, he could be helped if somebody could get ahold of him, but I was the one that had an opportunity to try to and I let it slip.

Mr. JENNER. What do you charge for a haircut?

Mr. SHASTEEN. $1.25.

Mr. JENNER. And that is cash on the barrelhead, isn't it?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir. I tell you that much--like somebody comes in and wants to know if they can get a free haircut, and when somebody goes to giving you something, you had better watch out--you had better be careful.

Mr. JENNER. And you manage the till?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, no, sir; each one of us, we all have our same drawers. I don't have a cash register, we have drawers, and that way, if they give the wrong change back, it's not anything out of my pocket.

Mr. JENNER. You cut hair and you have two----

Mr. SHASTEEN. I have one full time and one part time.

Mr. JENNER. You have three chairs?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On the occasions you saw this man would you describe his appearance so far as his attire is concerned? How was he dressed?

Mr. SHASTEEN. The best I remember is that he had on some kind of coveralls, nearly every time he came in.

Mr. JENNER. Coveralls?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; he wore unionalls or coveralls, you know, sir. They were G.I., of some description and they were green or a khaki-colored. The only time he wasn't dressed that way when he came in the shop was the night I went to the football game and that night he had on a pair of old worn out dress pants of some kind, they were dark, and he had on a sports shirt with his shirttail out.

Mr. JENNER. Let me get at these coveralls--would you describe them?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They buttoned down the front.

Mr. JENNER. They buttoned down the front and they had sleeves--it was a one-piece unit?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And covers you from top to bottom, full sleeves?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Now, one pair--one time I remember--he had pretty hairy arms. I remember that about him, you know, he had black hair on his arms, and one time he had on short sleeves. These coveralls had the sleeves cut off and they were ragged--I mean--they were long sleeves originally but they had just been chopped off. He is the type of guy that when you met him you couldn't hardly forget him. I'll say that. I mean, there is just something about him and I think I could say that for all three of us that worked there in the shop that every time he came in--we would ask him to come back, but right down deep we didn't want him back.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shave?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever get a shampoo?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; never did.

Mr. JENNER. Nothing but a haircut?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Just a haircut.

Mr. JENNER. And what color did you say these coveralls were?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, they were either--I don't know what color you call them old dungarees. You know, them old combat coveralls that the Army wears. That's what they were. Now, somebody, I believe that Mr. Odum is the one that asked me was they Marine coveralls or Army or something like that, and that, I don't have any idea on.

Mr. JENNER. They were the military type?

Mr. SHASTEEN. They were the military type. They wasn't the kind you just go down to the dry goods store and buy. I know that. He may have bought them at a surplus store for all I know.

Mr. JENNER. Now, were there occasions you saw this man that you have in mind on the street when he didn't come into your shop?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, I saw him going to the grocery store when he didn't come to the shop.

Mr. JENNER. And you occasionally saw him--is the grocery store across the street?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That's Hutch's Market?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And how was he dressed on those occasions?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, I think most usually, like I said, the only time I ever saw him with anything but those coveralls on was that night he came in the shop--he had those on--those old coveralls on when he was over there and another thing, they were big for him. I always noticed they were big enough for him and somebody else.

Mr. JENNER. They were very loose-fitting?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And even on those occasions when you saw him across the street at Hutch's, he had the coveralls, the military-type coveralls on?

Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; of course. He could have went in there times I didn't see him. And I don't know how many times I saw him but I have seen him over there.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I just want the times that you saw him.

Mr. SHASTEEN. I wouldn't even commence to guess--probably three or four times over there.

Mr. JENNER. You saw him about three or four times across the street?

Mr. SHASTEEN. In other words, his store sits over here and my shop is here and these glasses, lot of them down here, a lot of times if somebody has been in the shop that you are paying attention to, you can even see them in the back mirrors, back there and he--and you just notice and you are always looking at the front door. I mean, since I own the shop I ask everybody in.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have the chair next to the window?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; I have the back chair.

Mr. JENNER. You didn't cut the young man's hair?

Mr. SHASTEEN. No; he was in the front chair--the front barber chair with Mr. Glover.

Mr. JENNER. And would you describe this young man to me, how was he dressed?