Chapter XXI: Part 21

5. Lee Harvey Oswald occupied the apartment known as 4905 Magazine Street from May 9, 1963, to on or about September 23, 1963. He paid a rental of $65.00 per month for the apartment, which was furnished, and was directly responsible to the utility company for payment of gas and electric bills.

6. I first talked to Oswald about a month after he moved into the apartment. I spoke to him about payment of the rent, because he was a few days late in paying his rent for the second month he lived in the apartment. He told me he would have the rent in a few days. I later learned that he did pay the rent to my wife shortly thereafter.

7. Oswald appeared to be a quiet sort of man and I did not talk to him about anything other than the rent that first time that I met him.

8. Sometime after that, my wife called to my attention that Oswald had attached to the screen of his porch two hand circulars which read something to the effect that the United States should lay hands off Cuba. These circulars were about 4" by 6".

9. I have examined a photograph which has been marked as Exhibit No. 1 to this affidavit and state that the photograph shows Oswald handing out a circular which is of the same kind he had attached to the screen of his porch.

10. I asked Oswald to remove the circulars and he asked me who "rejects" to them. I told him that I objected to them and that I was the only person who had to object to them. Oswald then took them down without further comment and the subject was never mentioned between us again.

11. The next and last time I talked to Oswald was on Sunday morning, September 22, 1963, when I noticed he had almost finished packing a station wagon with his family's personal belongings. I asked him if he was moving, since I was concerned that he then owed about 15 days rent. Oswald told me that he was not leaving but that his wife was going to Texas to have her baby after which she was going to return to New Orleans.

12. I did not see the station wagon leave, but I believe it left for Texas sometime on Monday morning, September 23, 1963, but it could have left sometime on Sunday morning.

13. I didn't pay too much attention to the station wagon or to what Oswald was doing, because I thought he was going to remain in the apartment, as he had said.

14. I never saw Oswald again after my conversation with him on Sunday morning, but I thought I heard him in his apartment during the evening (about 7:00 to 7:30 p.m.) of the day on which the station wagon had left, i.e., either Sunday or Monday, September 22 or 23, 1963.

15. I did not see or hear any activity in the apartment on the day after the station wagon left for Texas. The next day which I believe would have been Wednesday, September 25, 1963, I entered Oswald's apartment and found that he had left and taken all of his belongings with him.

16. I never personally observed anyone visit Oswald or his family during the time they lived at the above address.

17. Oswald never seemed to respond to greetings from me and seemed to be an unfriendly type of person.

Signed on May 5, 1964, at New Orleans, La.

(S) Jesse J. Garner,
JESSE J. GARNER.

TESTIMONY OF RICHARD LEROY HULEN

The testimony of Richard Leroy Hulen was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Will you please stand up and be sworn?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. HULEN. I do.

Mr. JENNER. State your name, please.

Mr. HULEN. Richard Leroy Hulen.

Mr. JENNER. And you are connected with the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?

Mr. HULEN. I am the associate director of the health club.

Mr. JENNER. And you are appearing in lieu of whom?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. John F. Campbell.

Mr. JENNER. And he is the head of the health club, I take it?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And at present he is out of the city?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. The YMCA that we are talking about is located where?

Mr. HULEN. At 605 South Ervay in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. JENNER. We are in the Federal Court House. How far away is that from here?

Mr. HULEN. Two blocks.

Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. Hulen, that I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, that the Commission was authorized pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution 137, as the group to investigate the tragedy of November 22, 1963, of the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, shortly after the adoption of the Senate joint resolution, appointed the Commission and authorized it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses.

We have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are particularly interested in a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the YMCA that you have identified. Would you describe your duties and those of Mr. Campbell and describe the health club, and I should also add we are interested in a man by the name of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein, and I may ask you some questions about him as well.

Mr. HULEN. Well, of course, Mr. Campbell is in charge of the department. He does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders supplies and supervises the operation in general and I take my orders from him.

Mr. JENNER. You are his assistant?

Mr. HULEN. I am the assistant.

Mr. JENNER. How long have you been associated with the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Well, since 1945.

Mr. JENNER. And during--you were doing this work at the downtown YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the health club is what sort of activity?

Mr. HULEN. The health club is a businessmen's club. We have seven masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and I could go on and on.

Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. You have businessmen who come in, do they join the club or pay a fee?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; we have a yearly membership fee.

Mr. JENNER. If some guest who is a guest of the YMCA, wants to have a rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee?

Mr. HULEN. Not without paying a fee. He is a member if he lives in the dormitory--he is a member of the YMCA, but not of the health club. So, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices?

Mr. JENNER. Off the record.

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Mr. Davis off the record, pertaining to facilities and services at the YMCA.)

Mr. JENNER. All right. Back on the record. Referring to these yearly members, do you become acquainted with them?

Mr. HULEN. Most of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted during your history with the YMCA with a man in town here known as Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. Was he a member of your club?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; he was.

Mr. JENNER. And you have produced here for me a photostatic copy of what is entitled and identified for the record, "Membership application," and it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of a membership application for one Jack Ruby. From where did you obtain that exhibit?

Mr. HULEN. From the membership office.

Mr. JENNER. And this card, of which the document I have in my hands is a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photo copy of the original of the membership application and card which is maintained and is presently in the possession of the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to have you explain some of the things here for me--on the form, which has been marked Hulen Exhibit No. 1, under the printed designation, "Firm name," appears as typed, "Club Vegas," sir. Would you explain what that is?

Mr. HULEN. I think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his business address.

Mr. JENNER. That is the business address of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein. Club Vegas is some kind of a club here in Dallas?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right, or at least it was at the time this application was made out?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. And is still operating, incidentally.

Mr. JENNER. And it says opposite, "Type of membership,"--there appear two initials, "SH" what do they signify?

Mr. HULEN. Special health.

Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?

Mr. HULEN. That means all of the facilities will be available to that member except the massages.

Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of the card there appears the heading, "Membership account," and then there are columns in which there are long hand entries. These columns are headed, "Date due, amount, payments, card," and some entries. For example, for purposes of explanation, the first entry on the reverse side on this form I have described under "date due," appears 9-10-58. I take it that is a date meaning September 10, 1958?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the next column which is headed "Amount," there appears $65. Then under "Payments," that column is split in two--the left hand one reads and is headed by the word "Date," and the entry there is 9-2. I assume that is September 2, but no year, and then under the column headed, "Amount," appears $30. Would you explain that type entry?

Mr. HULEN. Well, at the time, in 1958, our membership fee for the special health club membership was $67, and there is a $2 cash saving if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get our amount $65, and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is, the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in 30 days, but apparently this wasn't paid in 30 days, but he still received benefit of cash payment.

Mr. JENNER. Does that form indicate that the health fee was paid?

Mr. HULEN. Oh, yes; yes, indeed.

Mr. JENNER. It was paid--on what date?

Mr. HULEN. It was 11-12-62, the last payment. The first payment was made on 9-10-58, wait a minute, I am wrong. It was then when he joined, the first payment was 9-20. In other words, that 9-10 was their billing date and he joined on 9-2 and they billed him on 9-10, and his second payment which was supposed to have been paid in 30 days was paid on 11-12-58. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with this. I'm just groping here myself. This is handled in another office. You will notice that the date due here was 9-10-59, again, you see, and this will denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he wasn't active, as you will notice there.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed it. Now, it would appear that the first two columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And the second set of columns under the heading "Payments," indicates payments that were made?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the 10th of September 1958, in the amount of $65, and then in the next two columns that he paid on September 2, $30, and he paid on November 12, $35 or a total then by that time of $65, that had been billed or was to have been paid by September 10?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He actually completed his payment on November 12?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Then, the next entry appears to be one of $65 for the following year, that is for 1959, due on November 1, 1959, and then there is an entry under the "Payments," column of the receipt of $65, on the 22d of October, that is, there was a prepayment there in 1959.

Then, for 1962, the "Due Date," was April 20, 1962--$74. Apparently your fee went up?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; it did.

Mr. JENNER. And there are entries of two payments, one a $25 on the 18th of April 1962, and the second of $49, on the 3d of August 1962, so he was then paid up?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And for 1963, there is an entry of a payment due on the 1st of June 1963, of $30 and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment on the 23d of May 1963, of $60.

What does that indicate, that is, here for 1962, he was a $74 member and in 1963, he appears to be only a $30 member?

Mr. HULEN. Oh, I've got it now. If a person for some reason cannot take out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we would let him have a 3-month membership which would explain the $30. At that date he was on the 3-month membership.

Mr. JENNER. I see.

Mr. HULEN. A short-term membership, we call it.

Mr. JENNER. At the bottom of this form there is written, "Do not renew," 11-28-63, meaning November 28, 1963. What does that mean?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told the stenographer in the membership office that if Ruby ever came back for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and she wrote that on there just for her own information. Actually, it was a joke.

Mr. JENNER. If he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal would have been granted him?

Mr. HULEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. It would not have been?

Mr. HULEN. No.

Mr. JENNER. Why is that?

Mr. HULEN. I don't know, Mr. Urquhart made the statement that it is, it was----

Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll try to bring that out, is the entry "Do not renew," of November 28, 1963, is that something in jest?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. In my opinion, I think he was just being facetious.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, Mr. Ruby did not renew his membership?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. "J.C.", I assume is John Campbell?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the initial entry fee, there appears in writing, "Wants to pay up in month's time. Okay, J.C." That indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when Ruby joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay up.

Mr. HULEN. I think that means that if he made the complete payment of the yearly membership in 2 payments within 30 days, that he would receive benefit of the discount.

Mr. JENNER. I see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within 30 days, his payment, first payment was made on the 2d of September of $30, and his second payment of $35, was made on November 12, 1958, so you gave him the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the 30 days?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that explains----

Mr. JENNER. So, he had a full year $65 membership for the year 1958, that is, 1 year from the time he joined which was September 10, 1958, and he rejoined at the same rate on--$65, a year, on November 1, 1959, and then in 1962, he had a $74 membership, which was really an increase in your charge?

Mr. HULEN. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. For 1 year commencing October 1, 1959--but he didn't get around to paying it, apparently until the following spring, which was the $25, on the 18th of April and the $49, on the 3d of August, and then on June 1, 1963, he took out a 3-month or a 90-day short term membership?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; a short-term membership.

Mr. JENNER. That expired on September 1st of that year, is that correct?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 1 in evidence. Did Ruby ever live at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the records of the YMCA have been checked to determine or confirm that?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. But as--at least as far as your personal recollection is concerned, you do not recall his ever having been a guest in what you call the dormitory?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. JENNER. I take it you recall Mr. Ruby using the Health Club facilities?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do--very well.

Mr. JENNER. And do you ever recall having any contact with or seeing a person known as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At the suggestion of Mr. Sorrels, of the Secret Service, have you caused an examination to be made of the guest record of the YMCA to determine whether a person by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald or Lee Oswald was ever a guest at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. I wouldn't be in a position to know--I'm not familiar enough with that and I have nothing whatsoever to do with it so I don't know what has been done or what has been requested.

Mr. JENNER. You have brought to me today a longhand sheet which appears on ruled notepaper and is what purports to be a list of registrations for one Lee Oswald during the year 1962, and another entry, one for the year 1963, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. From whom and from what source did you obtain this document?

Mr. HULEN. From Mr. McRee's secretary, who is the resident manager.

Mr. JENNER. McRee is the resident manager?

Mr. HULEN. Mr. McRee is the resident manager.

Mr. JENNER. And his secretary furnished you this slip of paper?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Did she advise you from what source she obtained these entries?

Mr. HULEN. I made the entries myself from her records of the payments.

Mr. JENNER. I understand--you prepared this and it is in your handwriting?

Mr. HULEN. That is correct; yes.

Mr. JENNER. And from what source did you obtain the information on this piece of paper?

Mr. HULEN. From her receipts of payment for room rent.

Mr. JENNER. And those are records that are kept by the YMCA in the usual and regular course of business?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you personally examined them?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you find, when you personally examined those receipt records, any receipts in the name of a person named Lee Oswald.

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw on the receipts the name "Lee Oswald"?

Mr. HULEN. I sure did. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. JENNER. And then you have listed under the first heading of "Lee Oswald," a series of dates, October 15, October 16, October 17, and October 18, 1962, in each instance. Then, in parentheses following those entries in the the same sequences appears the name Burge and the name Burgess and the name Burge again and then the name Barker. Following those in the same descending sequence are serial numbers: "L-18198." In your last column and in the same sequence are dollar figures: "3.25, 2.25, 2.25 and again 2.25." Now, would you explain those entries, please?

Mr. HULEN. Well, he checked in on 10-15-62.

Mr. JENNER. That is Lee Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. Lee Oswald check in on 10-15-62. The desk clerk at that time was a Mr. Burge, and the L-18198, was the number of the receipt which was given Lee Oswald, and the amount of $3.25, was $2.25 for the night's lodging and $1 deposit on the room key, which is refunded when it is returned to the front desk. Shall I go on?

Mr. JENNER. Yes. And then there is an additional set of entries below those we have now described and they read, "Lee Oswald, [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif.," and the next line October 3, 1963----Barker?

Mr. HULEN. Barker was the desk clerk, and the M-15593 was the number of the receipt and $3.25 was the room fee and a $1 deposit on the key.

Mr. JENNER. Now, those entries record the fact then that Oswald was a guest at the YMCA October 15th through October 19th, both inclusive, and again on October 3, 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Through October 18th, I believe it is, isn't it?

Mr. JENNER. It shows he was a guest at the YMCA October 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19, of 1962, and again on October 3 and to October 4, of 1963?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the examination of the receipts for lodging of guests at the YMCA reveal only those entries you have now described and are listed on this sheet of paper with respect to Lee Oswald?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. The years--during the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. HULEN. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. And had he been a guest and registered in on any other occasion during the years 1962 and 1963, would there have been and would there be now a registration entry and a receipt for payment of the character you have described?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I am sure there would be.

Mr. JENNER. Now, we would like the YMCA to furnish us photostatic copies of those five receipts just as you have furnished us a photostatic copy of Mr. Ruby's membership application.

Mr. HULEN. I would be glad to do it.

Mr. JENNER. We would appreciate it very much.

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And if we can have those this afternoon, we would like it.

Mr. HULEN. I'm sure we can arrange it and give them to you. Shall I bring them right here?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please do and we will give them to Miss Oliver and she can incorporate them in the transcript. I offer Hulen Exhibit No. 2.

To be best of your recollection and drawing on whatever knowledge you have, you don't recall anybody by that name, Lee Oswald, ever having used the Health Club facilities?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. And you know Jack Ruby well enough--do you recall this person Lee Oswald ever having been in the company of Jack Ruby at the YMCA?

Mr. HULEN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You have seen pictures of Lee Oswald on television and in newspapers and magazines?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. JENNER. And that person is clear in your mind--do you recall his physical characteristics?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. JENNER. So that you are able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty, so far as you are concerned, that you never saw that person using the Health Club facilities and you never saw him in the company of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HULEN. That is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what kind of a fellow Ruby was?

Mr. HULEN. Well, I found----

Mr. JENNER. In your general impression?

Mr. HULEN. I found Jack Ruby to be friendly and courteous and a well-behaved person. He seemed to have a lot of enthusiasm about anything that he liked. He generated a lot of enthusiasm around that. For instance, any athletic events or sports he discussed--he discussed that with the other members, which is the usual topic of well-known weight lifters, for instance, there are several--Reeves and Stanko and I can name several of them.

Mr. JENNER. Was Ruby a weight lifter? Did he dabble at that?

Mr. HULEN. Well, I should define weight lifting and body building. Weight lifting is competing, like you have in the Olympics, which is heavy lifting. In other words, you go to your maximum. Now, in body building, you take a minimum amount of weight and exercise longer--in other words, if you work with the heavy weights you can't work as long with the heavy weights as you can with the lighter weights, and Ruby was more of a body builder. In other words, he worked with the lighter weights over a longer period of time. In other words, he was not after, in my opinion, he wasn't after a large body or bulging muscle, he just wanted to stay in a good general physical condition.

It wasn't necessary for me to set up any kind of a program for him. He had had experience in the past and he knew pretty well what he wanted to do, so actually there was very little, if any, supervision on my part. He used the facilities and behaved very well and I found him to be a nice person to talk to--to visit with.

Mr. JENNER. All right, sir. Leave the deposition open for the moment, Miss Oliver, because Mr. Hulen will return with the photostatic copies of those records and we will close his deposition when we take care of that.

Mr. HULEN. Now, I will be tied up until about 1. Would 1:30 or 2 o'clock be agreeable with you?

Mr. JENNER. 2 o'clock is fine.

(At this point the witness Hulen left the deposing room, the proceedings of the deposition to be resumed at 2 p.m., of this same date, April 1, 1964, and were resumed as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen has kindly returned this afternoon with copies of the receipts to which he made reference in his testimony and of which he supplied a longhand list on ruled notebook paper, Hulen Exhibit No. 2. Now that we have the originals, we can substitute them. They are five in number, and I identified them as entitled "Receipts Young Men's Christian Association of Dallas Downtown Branch." They are signed respectively by "Burge [spelling] B-u-r-g-e" and "Barker." We will work them in order of dates, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3, 4, 5, and 6, and the receipt of October 3 as Hulen Exhibit No. 7. I take it they were desk clerks?

Mr. HULEN. The desk clerks.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Burge registered in Mr. Oswald on October 15, 1962, is that correct?

Mr. HULEN. That's correct--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the receipt shows the room number, room No. 415. Does that indicate the room to which he was assigned?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And then there is $2.25, and underneath, opposite that, "Deposit--$1, total $3.25." And that represents the charge for the room and key deposit you testified about this morning?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. The next one is dated October 16, 1962, also--name: Lee Oswald, same room, $2.25, initialed, however--it looks like "HB", or is this "W. Burgess."

Mr. HULEN. Correct; Burgess.

Mr. JENNER. He is also a registration clerk or desk clerk?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. The next is dated the 17th of October 1962, in the name of Lee Oswald, the same room number, $2.25, signed by Mr. Burge, whom we have already identified. The next is dated October 18, 1962, the same name--Lee Oswald, same room number, same amount, but this time signed by just one word "Barker." Is this a Mr. Barker or Miss Barker?

Mr. HULEN. Yes--Mr. Barker.

Mr. JENNER. Is he also a room clerk or registration clerk?

Mr. HULEN. Yes; he is.

Mr. JENNER. And the last in this series is dated October 3, 1963, and in this instance it is in the name of Lee H. Oswald, and it shows an address, whereas, none of the other of the first four had an address, and the address is listed here as Toro [spelling] T-o-r-o, Calif. [Spelling] C-a-l.

I notice something on the first of the series which I notice again on this one of October 3, 1963, which is the printing on the line entitled, "Membership fees," and there is the word written in longhand, "service." That's true of the first and the last of these receipts--what does that indicate?

Mr. HULEN. That indicates that he was a serviceman and that, in my opinion, that waives the membership fee.

Mr. JENNER. The room number on the October 3 receipt is 601. That, as in the case of the others, indicates the room to which he was assigned?

Mr. HULEN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On this visit on October 3?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That line says, "Room 601 to 10/4," meaning October 4, I assume.

Mr. HULEN. I imagine--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. $2.25 is shown for the room and a dollar for the key deposit, which I take it means he was charged $2.25 for that Room 601, for 1 day or 1 night, plus a dollar to cover the key deposit?

Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir--that's correct.

Mr. JENNER. I think that concludes Mr. Hulen's deposition. I offer Hulen Exhibits Nos. 3 to 7, both inclusive. And we may close the deposition at this point.

Mr. Hulen, I didn't mention this this morning, but you may read over your deposition when Miss Oliver has completed it and if you will call in to the U.S. Attorney's Office here, Mr. Barefoot Sanders or his secretary will know when it is ready for you to read it.

Mr. HULEN. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And if you have any corrections, we would like to have them and then you sign the deposition, or you may waive the signature now, if you wish.

Mr. HULEN. All right, I will waive the signature.

TESTIMONY OF COLIN BARNHORST

The testimony of Colin Barnhorst was taken at 11:40 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. JENNER. Please stand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Mr. BARNHORST. I do.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which was authorized to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and specified its powers pursuant to the legislation I have just identified to you. The duties of the Commission are to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22nd of November 1963.

And that entails our inquiry into various facts and circumstances and incidents, some of them involving a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. We understand that Mr. Oswald was a guest at the YMCA here in downtown Dallas, and we would like to ask you a question or two in that respect.

Mr. JENNER. What is your age, by the way?

Mr. BARNHORST. Twenty-one.

Mr. JENNER. Are you employed by the downtown YMCA here in Dallas?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is located where?

Mr. BARNHORST. 605 North Ervay.

Mr. JENNER. When did your employment commence?

Mr. BARNHORST. October 14.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. BARNHORST. 1963.

Mr. JENNER. State the nature of that employment and your hours?

Mr. BARNHORST. Desk clerk and mainly checking in and out guests--that is the primary duty and my duties involve making change and the usual reports and things like that. My hours are from 4 to midnight 4 nights a week.

Mr. JENNER. 4 in the afternoon until midnight 4 nights a week?

Mr. BARNHORST. Then on Friday night--midnight to Saturday morning 8 a.m. every week, and every other week from midnight to 8 a.m., on Thursday night, so I alternate 6 days and 5 days. The particular week of all this I had worked Thursday night also.

Mr. JENNER. Were you on duty at any time so as to bring to your attention the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was or had become a guest at the YMCA?

Mr. BARNHORST. You mean at the time----

Mr. JENNER. At the time.

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I wasn't working there when he was a guest. I know when he was there, but I wasn't working there.

Mr. JENNER. That's right. Have you personally examined the records of the YMCA in that respect?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And those records are of what character?

Mr. BARNHORST. They are a daily report on transients in and out with permanents in and out and the number of rooms, and a copy goes to the residence manager and a copy stays at the household and a copy is sent to and, well, it is placed on our desk copy.

Mr. JENNER. And have you examined those records for both the years 1962 and 1963?

Mr. BARNHORST. No; only the month of October 1963.

Mr. JENNER. Only the month of October 1963. In examining that month did you examine each day of the month, that is, the records relating to each day of that month?

Mr. BARNHORST. Originally--yes, and I have looked at them also, actually, I guess for September, because I had stayed there one night and I had looked back to see which room I was in and I was just curious and in looking back--later on--I saw there was a Lee H. Oswald. He was in room 601, because I looked at it last night after the man called me and it is still on the desk.

Mr. JENNER. He occupied the room 601 when?

Mr. BARNHORST. Until the morning or early part of the afternoon of the 4th of October. I say that because the clerk who was on was Eva Marshall. Her name was beside the checkout. So, she was the one who would have checked him out and she works on the day shift and at that time she was working day shift and that would have been about 10 days, I guess, before I went to work there and she was filling in there because the clerk had quit, which is why they hired me. I don't know who the clerk was. I only found the checkout, I didn't ever see the check-in--I think I did see it one time. And I think it was October 3, the day before.

Mr. JENNER. The check-in was October 3?

Mr. BARNHORST. I remember that from sometime ago, but I just happened to see the checkout.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me what kind of records you keep--you keep a receipt?

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, maybe I can describe these when he checks in to see step by step what happens, because there is a little blue card with a stub on it and we call this a transient register card. He fills in his name and the phone number and membership, if any, and a number of other details, if it has anything to do with such as when his membership expires, if he is in the service, his service number or some other things, and then we fill out a triplicate receipt for his room rent. In this case he paid for 1 night and then we give him a receipt and a receipt stays in the register and a receipt goes in the drawer and, of course, we fill out the rest of the stub--the receipt number, the amount paid, and we fill out his name and his room number on the stub and the price of it and so forth for the operator to put his name up on the board, and he came in fairly early on the 3d, because the operator----

Mr. JENNER. What is the board you mentioned something now about? You mentioned something new.

Mr. BARNHORST. This is a board we have for locating anyone in the building at that time, who is staying in the building. It is a PBX machine and is in the nature of a board up on the wall and it has several sections. It is a flip-type board and you put a little narrow slip of paper with their name and room number on it. That's for the telephone operator.

Now, he must have come in fairly early on the 3d, if he came in in the evening, because in fact, he did come in in the evening. Mr. Barker checked him in because I know the evening operator typed his name in and so that would place him coming in in the evening sometime before 10 o'clock, because that's about when she leaves, and after that they are typed up by the--either the night clerk or the next operator in the morning. Then, in the evening, it is put on a ledger sheet and we have two types--we have one for the permanent guests for their personal account, and for just general transients that pass through, we have a group account. We just put the last name and the amount paid and whether or not they paid a membership fee. And, I might mention he didn't pay a membership fee when he came in. There is only two ways a person can pay that and that is either be in the service or have a membership card and I don't think he was registered as a member. He may have tried to pass himself off as a serviceman, but that's just in passing--that's not on the record--but--then, we make this daily report which is what I saw his name on last night. That is a long sheet and it has a list of room numbers in numerical order and then the name of the person who checked into that room that day and anybody who checked out of the room that day, and any transfers.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hulen, when he testified a few moments ago, testified with respect to his having checked over receipts showing payment for lodging and he assembled a list and he is going to obtain photostatic copies of them and return them this afternoon and return with them. Are you returning to the YMCA after you leave here?

Mr. BARNHORST. No, I can--it's just across the street.

Mr. JENNER. Well, I would appreciate it if you would speak with Mr. Hulen who made copies of the entries from the records--I would like to have in addition to the copies of the receipts, photostatic copies of the registration card you have mentioned.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And this is a check-in card, did you call it a check-in card?

Mr. BARNHORST. A transient register card, and do you want the daily report?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. BARNHORST. How about this one in our ledger book?

Mr. JENNER. I would like that as well.

Mr. BARNHORST. Because the clerk would be Mr. Michaels, depending on what night of the week it was. Probably Mr. Michaels--chances are it was he that made out that report. He is not with us now, but he didn't report any membership fee paid at the time.

Mr. JENNER. And that would indicate that none was paid?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Is there a difference in charge or rate for a room depending upon whether you are a member of the YMCA or a serviceman?

Mr. BARNHORST. From what I know, Mr. Oswald--he should have paid $3.75 or $2.25 for a room, 50 cents for membership and $1 for the key deposit. No doubt he paid the room rent because that's on the record and the key deposit or else he wouldn't have gotten a room, but the key deposit isn't listed in the ledger at all. It is a separate account because we refund it and in the ledger we list memberships and we separate that from the key deposits. Because it is in a separate account. Now, I didn't see any membership fee by his name.

Mr. JENNER. But does an ex-serviceman receive this reduced rate?

Mr. BARNHORST. Not if he has been out a minute or more, at least I never give it to him. Now, I always check the ID cards. Mr. Barker, I believe, does not, but of course any serviceman could rattle off his service number 20 years after he got out and I found that out quite early so I have been checking them and I have had several fellows who were trying to get away with it--they usually had forgotten it or say they would be back in a minute and they don't come back and it was embarrassing to me, and Mr. Barker has been there a long time. He wouldn't write up a membership unless he was a serviceman.

Mr. JENNER. These registration cards show----

Mr. BARNHORST. They don't show which one it is.

Mr. JENNER. Would they show the address that the guests gave?

Mr. BARNHORST. We always ask for an address, try to get an address from them. Occasionally we don't. Occasionally they just sort of don't put it on there and you say, "Well, I would like to have an address on there." And they will say, "I plan to stay here." It should show an address on there of some kind.

Mr. JENNER. And among the papers I have asked to have photostated will that appear?

Mr. BARNHORST. If he gave an address, it will be there. Now, I came across one fellow--I told a couple of the FBI men, because so many of them were over there to talk to me--there's always around the YMCA somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that he knew Lee in New Orleans. Now, he is a little character and his IQ matches his height. I'm not making personal opinions, you understand, but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. He did come by and he, I believe, stayed on the same floor, if I remember right.

Mr. JENNER. He was a guest?

Mr. BARNHORST. He was a permanent resident and he was one of these fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened to bounce in the same town all the time.

Mr. JENNER. What is his name?

Mr. BARNHORST. Joseph R. Hummel.

Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] H-u-m-m-e-l?

Mr. BARNHORST. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still a guest there?

Mr. BARNHORST. No; he moved out 2 or 3 months ago. We have a forwarding address, I believe because his mail isn't here any more--that would indicate a forwarding address. In fact, I believe I put the forwarding address in the box. It's over there and I can probably get it for you.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would do that and also give that to Mr. Hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to me.

Mr. BARNHORST. The night watchman over there told me one time--I mentioned "Little" Joe, or heard "Little" Joe talking about it one night and I wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and "Little" Joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he has been in New Orleans possibly about that time, so if I didn't know that, I would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right time. So, the FBI--I don't know whether they did anything about it or not, but I just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person around that I know of that remembers knowing Oswald or when he was there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it.

Apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures I have seen, he's like a hundred and one guys I have checked in over there, and the only reason I would watch him if I suspected he might be a homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we watch for them and try to see if they are going to--to see the people they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. I don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it has been talked about some.

Now, Mr. Barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have over there who the roof could fall in on--just so it didn't fall in over the part that was his desk--it wouldn't matter.

Mr. JENNER. It wouldn't matter to Barker?

Mr. BARNHORST. No.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still working there?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; he's about 79. He just lives and lets live. He checks them in and checks them out. Somehow, maybe it's better that way but I have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the other, about it.

Mr. JENNER. What hours does Barker have?

Mr. BARNHORST. He works the same hours I do--four to midnight except he works the three nights of the week that I don't and then works on Saturday and Sunday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. He and I share the weekend pretty well.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Barker checked in Oswald, according to your records?

Mr. BARNHORST. According to my knowledge.

Mr. JENNER. On those records?

Mr. BARNHORST. Right. And Eva Marshall is the one who checked him out, and I am personally pretty positive it was Mr. Barker because the telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barker signed the receipt of payment of $3.25, for this day on October 3 and 4?

Mr. BARNHORST. It was $3.25 then?

Mr. JENNER. It says $3.25.

Mr. BARNHORST. It should have been $3.25, you see.

Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Barker apparently charged him out on the 18th of October 1962, and he paid $2.25 for the last day of that 4-day stay in October 1962. Mr. Burge apparently checked him in because the receipt is signed by Mr. Burge, on the 15th of October.

Mr. BARNHORST. If they still do the same thing as they did then that would pinpoint the time when he came in. Mr. Burge relieves us in the evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that falls invariably between 5 and 7 because the cafeteria closes at 7:30.

Mr. JENNER. So, with Mr. Burge checking the man in, that would indicate that was at night or in the evening?

Mr. BARNHORST. In the evening.

Mr. JENNER. It would be sometime after 4 in the afternoon?

Mr. BARNHORST. Sometime after 5, because he wouldn't come in until 5.

Mr. JENNER. And if Mr. Barker either checked somebody in or checked somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it?

Mr. BARNHORST. It depends on the day of the week. If it was on the weekend, it would be between 8 and 4. It would--if it was on a weekevening, I mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. That's presuming, of course, I'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as he does now. Of course I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. Well, October 15, 1962, was a Monday?

Mr. BARNHORST. A Monday--well, then, that meant that he was very possibly working the shift I am working now, because he's off Monday and Tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. I am presuming that he wasn't working full time for us then.

Mr. JENNER. But if he did work, it was at night?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I'm pretty sure it would be. I don't think he was ever a day clerk.

Mr. JENNER. All right. I appreciate very much your coming in. You have been helpful and if you will relate to Mr. Hulen my desire for these additional records, photostatic copies, I would appreciate it. He said he was going to return about 2 o'clock this afternoon.

Mr. BARNHORST. All right.

Mr. JENNER. If he has those, you might speak with him--you see he is in the health department.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I don't know just how familiar he is with these records, but he may be able to explain them.

Mr. BARNHORST. He might and he might not be. He probably might not be familiar with the midnight reports. We make these daily reports where his name would be at the desk.

Mr. JENNER. Where the guest's name would appear at the desk?

Mr. BARNHORST. I beg your pardon?

Mr. JENNER. The name of the guest.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be, on a permanent form. We have a sheaf of papers--we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back, that goes back to Noah and if we had Noah, it would be on that. It had everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, I know of course it covers Oswald because I saw it on there.

Mr. JENNER. You actually saw it?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact as late as last night?

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; and I remember it was "Lee H." Now, it doesn't necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "Lee H." It could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the names for space.

Mr. JENNER. Now, that room 601, was the room he occupied on the 3d of October 1963, or was it the room he occupied in 1962?

Mr. BARNHORST. In 1963. I didn't see the one in 1962.

Mr. JENNER. Whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in 1962--appears on these records you have described?

Mr. BARNHORST. Well; I would say it would be there unless it had been mutilated, and it's double checked by this Mr. McRee's secretary. He is the resident manager. It is double checked by her to see that all the stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them stuck together.

Mr. JENNER. I hesitate to press you but in view of your great familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at 2 o'clock, with Mr. Hulen.

Mr. BARNHORST. The photostats or the originals?

Mr. JENNER. The photostats.

Mr. BARNHORST. At 2 o'clock?

Mr. JENNER. Please, and you would be in a position to say that the photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and cards that you personally saw in the YMCA.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And if you will return, then I will not close your deposition now, but I will wait until 2 o'clock. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.

Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I realize this is just details that you have to have.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.

Mr. BARNHORST. I'll be back at 2 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.

(At this point the witness Barnhorst was excused from the deposing room and returned to same at 2 p.m. on this same day, April 1, 1964, and his deposition was continued as follows:)

Mr. JENNER. Now, the balance of Mr. Barnhorst's deposition. You thought you might be able to obtain some records for me, Mr. Barnhorst.

Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; I was not able to obtain the blue card record. The FBI has that. That's the notice from Mr. McRee in his handwriting.

Mr. JENNER. "The FBI"--I am reading the note, "The FBI has the register cards for October 3, 1963. 1962 has been destroyed and we didn't keep them that long."

Mr. BARNHORST. This is a sample register card just for your own information.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient register card," which he described this morning. The card is entitled, "Transient register card." It has a stub entitled "Transient," and is light blue in color. We will mark it Hulen Exhibit No. 8.

Mr. BARNHORST. And that Toro, Calif.--I can identify that as a Marine base, I believe, you've probably heard the name of it.

Mr. JENNER. Yes.