Chapter XXIX: Part 29

Dr. WOOD. Bulls-eye. And that is as far as--do you want me to get into the Oswald deal now, or you just want me to go on and tell what he did, or are you going to ask me some questions?

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to ask you first of all, did you talk to this fellow at all?

Dr. WOOD. I didn't say a word to him, but my son did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your son tell you at that time what he had said to the fellow?

Dr. WOOD. He didn't tell me at that time, no, sir. He told me later on.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you after the assassination, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes; after the assassination he told me that. Yes, sir; that is true.

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you what he said to the fellow after the assassination. Now you mentioned previously that when you warned your son to be careful of that rifle because of your fear that it would blow up and that your son had told you, don't worry, it is an Italian carbine, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Well----

Mr. LIEBELER. And that is substantially what he had mentioned to you at the range, that it was Italian?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not your son spoke to this man before he told you it was an Italian carbine, or not?

Dr. WOOD. I feel sure he did not speak to the man before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your son's statement was based only on his observation of the rifle, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. On his observation of the rifle and what he knows about guns, which is quite a bit. He studies about guns a lot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think your son would be qualified to make a statement in this regard?

Dr. WOOD. I feel sure more so than I am. I know very little about guns, but he knows quite a bit.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe this fellow leave the rifle range before you?

Dr. WOOD. I did not, but I didn't notice when the change was made, but my son said he did. He noticed that the fellow came there after my boy had sat down and this fellow had left before my boy had finished. The reason for that was, that my boy was having some trouble sighting in his scope, and he asked the keeper to help him. This fellow was there less than most of the fellows that was out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of the keeper?

Dr. WOOD. I do not. He was a tall fellow; all I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Slender?

Dr. WOOD. Slender, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. Floyd Davis?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he might have been the fellow that was helping my son, I don't know. But I recognized his picture later in the paper when it came out, and--that this fellow was there practicing, and I recognized the fellow as the fellow that helped my son.

Mr. LIEBELER. Helped your son sight in his scope?

Dr. WOOD. Helped my son sight in his scope, and I don't know who owned the range. I have no idea.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time subsequent to that that you were able to identify this man that you had seen there as Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. WOOD. Would you repeat that?

Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw this man, you left the rifle range. Then later on the next Friday the President was assassinated, and at sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up Lee Harvey Oswald with this man that you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when and how you did that?

Dr. WOOD. I saw him flashed on the television screen at home several times. They would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring him back to his cell. This particular time I mentioned to my wife, I said to her, "Honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was sitting next to Sterling at the rifle range. But I am not going to say anything to Sterling because I want to see if he recognizes him and if he thinks it was."

Well, I would say within 30 minutes or an hour he was flashed back on the screen and he said to me, "Daddy, that is the fellow that was sitting next to me out on the rifle range."

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you, independently of your son, first noticed the resemblance between Oswald----

Dr. WOOD. And mentioned it to my wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Sterling was not in your presence at at time?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he was not in the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then later he came into the room, saw Oswald's picture on the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at the rifle range that previous Saturday, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not mention to Sterling in any way the resemblance between Oswald and the fellow at the rifle range prior to the time he mentioned it himself?

Dr. WOOD. No. They mentioned on the newscast that he was an ex-Marine. Well, I figured an ex-Marine would be a husky sort of fellow, and I kept watching him, and he didn't look like a Marine to me. But he was a Marine but he didn't seem to me to have the build.

He looked to me as a fairly frail man, not too strong, and that is the reason I wasn't thinking too much about it until he was flashed on the screen and then his profile just came to me that that was the man that was out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do then after you had had this conversation and Sterling's observation?

Dr. WOOD. I said I think I should report that to either the Dallas police or FBI.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you do so?

Dr. WOOD. I did not until the following Monday. On Sunday, the next morning--this was Saturday night--on Sunday morning we went to church and my wife said after church, let's go down and look at the place where the President was assassinated. We haven't been down, so we went down there and we looked over the area and we walked back to our car, and I would say it was between 12 and 1 o'clock, and I turned on the radio in the car and it said Oswald had been shot.

So I said to my wife, well, I don't know whether it will do any good now to turn it in or not, and I didn't turn it in. But later on, on Monday I had a fellow in my office who works for the State comptroller's office and told him about this incident and he said, "Dr. Wood, I certainly would turn it in. Anything that you could do will help."

So after he left the office, I called the FBI and told them I thought I had some information that might be of importance to them concerning the Oswald case, and they talked to me, and this was on Monday. And I told them I was leaving town. I think I told them, I am not positive, but we went out, me and my wife and son went out to Uvalde deer hunting, and while we were out there--this was on, we went out Tuesday, and we were there Wednesday night, and Will Fritz of the Dallas police force called me and questioned me about my son and me and were we sure, and I said we were fairly sure that it was, and he wanted to know when we were coming back, and I said that me and my wife were thinking about going to Mexico so it will be Sunday before we return. And he said, when you return would you please call me.

Well, that was on the following Monday, and I called Will Fritz and he had two men from homicide come out and talk to me. And on my lunch hour, two FBI agents came out and talked with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this on Monday, too?

Dr. WOOD. It was on Monday. I believe. I am fairly sure it was on Monday because I called as soon as I came back, and I recall that when I called, there was the homicide, two officers from Will Fritz' office came, and as well as I remember, they called my office girl, the FBI called my office girl and asked could they come out to see me, and they came out around my lunch hour, and I talked to the FBI at that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the agents that spoke to you?

Dr. WOOD. I don't remember the agents, sure don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that this fellow was firing closely enough so that you could be able to identify it?

Dr. WOOD. I don't think I could identify it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI or the Dallas police show you any pictures of Oswald when they interviewed you?

Dr. WOOD. Both the Dallas police and the FBI, I think, showed me the same photograph that each showed me as they came out.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you identified that man in that photograph as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I put it in this category that I couldn't be absolutely positive, but in my mind I was positive that it was Oswald that I saw out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. They showed pictures also to your son, did they not?

Dr. WOOD. He said they did; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You weren't there when they did?

Dr. WOOD. They interviewed my son at school. The Secret Service came out to his school, I think, a couple of times to see him, and an officer from Will Fritz' office came out once or twice to school to see him, and the FBI came out, I think, at the house on two occasions just before I got off from the office, and I never was there when my son saw either of them.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know that the FBI subsequently showed your son a picture of the rifle used to assassinate the President?

Dr. WOOD. I knew this.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you aware of the fact that your son indicated that the picture that the FBI showed them was not the same rifle that was in possession of this man at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I am not aware of that. I am aware of the fact that he--he thinks he said that the rifle they first showed him was the rifle, but the scope was not the same scope that he showed them. I think that is what my boy said. I don't know for sure whether they showed him two different pictures or not, but one time they came out, the FBI come and stayed a very short while and said is this the scope. That is the way I understood my wife to say, and my boy said no, that is not the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures that have previously been marked as Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456, and ask you if any of the pictures I show you resemble the men who you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I pick out someone nearest resembling--is that what you are asking me? Or is the likeness of either of these to him?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, is this the fellow you saw at the rifle range, do you think? Are any of these pictures of the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. May I ask this, that the profile that I got of the man, as I told the FBI, was not a profile like this. It was a lateral side profile, because I was facing in this angle, and I said I could only describe him from a lateral view and from the shoulder up, even though I walked down to the rifle range to the target with him. I did not pay a bit of attention to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So would the picture here, Commission Exhibit 454, be a lateral view of the type you describe.

Dr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is too much from the front?

Dr. WOOD. Well, now, that is a right lateral view. I assume his was a left lateral view. But still I would say that wasn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. You would say what?

Dr. WOOD. That was not the man that I saw.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was not the man you saw?

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been previously marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in that photograph as the man you saw in the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man holding the paper facing me with a green mark above his head.

Mr. LIEBELER. With the green mark, with two marks above him? There are two different marks and you indicated the----

Dr. WOOD. The green marking above this fellow right here [pointing].

Mr. LIEBELER. That has an "X"-shaped mark.

Dr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture which has been marked Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you if any of the individuals there appear to be the same as the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. The man with one green marking above the top of his head is the--I would identify as the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, and ask you if you recognize that individual as the man you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Dr. WOOD. In my mind there is no doubt. If I just had to swear on a Bible, I couldn't, but in my mind, it is him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, of course, you realize that you are testifying under oath.

Dr. WOOD. I know he is a dead man and all that, but I must say in my own mind it is him, I am positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I show you two pictures which have been marked Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener, and ask you if you recognize either of those pictures as the rifle in the possession of the man at the range?

Dr. WOOD. I didn't observe the rifle close enough to say either one of these was or wasn't. I only observed the way the rifle was fired, so I couldn't identify either one as being the rifle that assassinated, or the man that was shooting out at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are unable to identify that as being the rifle either one way or the other?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was at the range when you observed this fellow who also observed him?

Dr. WOOD. Yes. I told the FBI of Kenney Longley. Dr. Longley's son, a dental surgeon, a friend of mine, was talking to me at the time they were shooting. He was getting ready to take over one of the booths, and I understand that later the FBI went out to interview him.

And he had two friends with him. They interviewed them too, but I have forgotten their names.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they observe this individual also?

Dr. WOOD. Other than what I have said, the conversation that I was concerned about, and I handed them each cotton to put in their ears when he fired this rifle, and I don't know how much observation they made of the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you discussed with them the question of whether or not this man was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Dr. WOOD. I haven't seen--I will retract that statement. I had seen Dr. Longley's son. He had a front tooth knocked out and Dr. Longley brought him over to my office, but nothing was mentioned about Oswald or this man at the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Longley and those two friends are the only two men that you know of that were also at the range at that time?

Dr. WOOD. The only people I know. I couldn't identify another soul that was out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You haven't discussed this either with Longley or his two friends?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. If you can think of anything else that you think ought to be on the record about this matter, I want you to feel free to go right ahead and say it. We want to get everything that you know about this.

Dr. WOOD. You mean help you out in the case or any feelings in the case?

Mr. LIEBELER. No; on the question of whether this was Oswald out there at the rifle range, or anything else, if you know any other facts about the case, we want to know those, too.

Dr. WOOD. I have elaborated pretty much to you about what I saw. I was a great admirer of the President and I felt that if there was anything I could do to help clarify or clear up the case, I was willing to do it, and that is why I reported.

Mr. LIEBELER. On behalf of the Commission I want to thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown us, Dr. Wood.

Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF STERLING CHARLES WOOD

The testimony of Sterling Charles Wood was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you stand up, Sterling, and raise your right hand? Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Sterling, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler.

Mr. WOOD. Glad to meet you.

Mr. LIEBELER. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses such as you by the Commission, pursuant to provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I believe that Mr. Rankin sent a letter to you and to your father last week, and that he enclosed copies of those two documents along with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony by the Commission or staff members. Do you remember getting that letter?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but I didn't read those rules.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is all right. Your father got them and you have them still in your possession?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your name for the record?

Mr. WOOD. Sterling Charles Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you?

Mr. WOOD. Thirteen.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you go to school?

Mr. WOOD. Boude Storey Junior High.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?

Mr. WOOD. 1326 Alaska Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has been advised that you and your father went out to the Sports Drome Gun Range on West Davis at about 8000 West Davis sometime in November, is that correct?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that you went out there?

Mr. WOOD. It was the Saturday before. It was 6 days before the President was killed. It was a Saturday.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Saturday before he was assassinated?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who all went out to the range, just you and your father?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me about what time you got out there?

Mr. WOOD. I would say it was about 1:30, right after my daddy was off from work.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you stay out there?

Mr. WOOD. About an hour.

Mr. LIEBELER. You went out there to sight your rifle in for deer hunting?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go deer hunting?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a deer?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; saw one.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get a shot at it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; I think I hit him and he jumped the fence.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I understand that you and your father saw a man out there firing in the booth next to you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us what happened right there at the rifle range that day?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I came out there. I had been shooting for about 10 or 15 minutes and he came up next to me and started shooting, and he only shot about 8 or 10 times and I noticed every time he got through shooting he would take the breech and open it up and put the shell in his pocket. We went down to check our target and I remembered that his was almost always in the bull's-eye. And as we came back to shoot again, I talked to him and I said, "Sir, is that a 6.5 Italian carbine?" And he said, "Yes, sir."

Mr. LIEBELER. Why did you ask him that question?

Mr. WOOD. Because I read gun books and I was pretty sure that was a 6.5 Italian carbine and I wanted to make sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you told your father about this, that that was an Italian carbine?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did you express it?

Mr. WOOD. I said, "Daddy, it looks like a 6.5 Italian carbine," and I asked him if it was a four-power scope, because it was funny looking, it wasn't American, and he said, "Yes, it was."

Mr. LIEBELER. Had you talked to your father about this fellow or this rifle before you talked to this guy?

Mr. WOOD. I think I said that it looked like an Italian make gun, to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that to your father?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember why you mentioned that particular gun to your father?

Mr. WOOD. Well, call it an Army rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. How could you tell that?

Mr. WOOD. Well, you can tell it had been scratched up and it was a surplus gun. It was probably--you can tell it was probably used in the war.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anything else peculiar about this rifle that made you mention it to your father?

Mr. WOOD. It had a sawed-off barrel, shorter barrel than most rifles were.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long did the barrel of the rifle stick out?

Mr. WOOD. About that far out of the stock.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that was about 3 or 4 inches?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that the barrel was sawed off?

Mr. WOOD. You could tell it was shorter than most military rifles, and everytime he shot, a spit of fire would come out and I could feel the heat when he shot every time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a rifle do you have, Sterling?

Mr. WOOD. Winchester 30-30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know about how long it is?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea. It is a shorter rifle than most of them, which is 30-30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how long a yardstick is? Can you visualize that in your mind?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is your rifle longer or shorter than a yardstick?

Mr. WOOD. It is about, I would say it was shorter than a yardstick, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the rifle that this fellow had, was it longer or shorter?

Mr. WOOD. Longer than a yard stick, because it is--a Winchester is a small gun to start off with, and a military rifle is a pretty long rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one, even though the barrel was sawed-off, you think it was still longer than a yardstick?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you guess about how much longer than a yardstick it would be?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; it wasn't too much bigger than a yardstick.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to this fellow any more than just ask him what you have already told us?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he said only two words to you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the range before you or after?

Mr. WOOD. Before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see him go?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did he go?

Mr. WOOD. He left with a man in a newer model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the model?

Mr. WOOD. No, I didn't. They went into the parking lot. They went around and I heard the car door slam and they took off, but it was a newer model.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of car?

Mr. WOOD. It was a Ford, if I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. About what year would you say?

Mr. WOOD. I don't remember. I just knew it was a newer model car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it a convertible or station wagon?

Mr. WOOD. It was a hardtop.

Mr. LIEBELER. A hardtop?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. About this other fellow that this guy was with, was he a big man or just----

Mr. WOOD. About the same size this man was.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall would you say this man was?

Mr. WOOD. Oh, about 5'9".

Mr. LIEBELER. About 5'9"?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the FBI talked to you about this once before or a couple of times, didn't they?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you now how this fellow left the range?

Mr. WOOD. What do you mean by that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you, did he go and get in a car or did he leave with somebody else?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember them asking you this?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell him?

Mr. WOOD. I told him they left in a newer model car. He had to go around through the main office because that was 30 yards down and he had to come around and he left in a newer model car with this man, and he wasn't driving.

Mr. LIEBELER. That the man who you saw firing was not driving?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI what kind of car it was?

Mr. WOOD. I think I told him, I am pretty sure it was a Ford. That is what I remember, because I like Fords and I remember what a Ford looks like.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that this fellow who you saw shooting this rifle left with another man?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty clear about that?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you also told that the fellow you saw shooting the rifle wasn't driving the car, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now later on the next week after the President was assassinated, did you see a picture of this man or observe his picture on television or the radio or newspaper, or see him in any other way?

Mr. WOOD. Are you talking about Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that was firing at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. That is what made me notice him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about that.

Mr. WOOD. The man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. You could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more than I did anybody else. So when I saw the picture on television that night, I was sure it was him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke to your father about it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; we went to get a paper about the assassination and I said, "Dad, that does look like the man to me." And he said it did, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your father mention it to you first, or did you mention it to your father?

Mr. WOOD. I mentioned it to him first.

Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned it to him first?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was your mother there when you mentioned it to him?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; she was out. We had gone out to get a paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first time you saw this guy's picture was in the newspaper, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; I kept remembering how he looked and I finally told my dad.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told your father that this guy you saw at the rifle range looked like Oswald, based on the picture of Oswald in the newspaper?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you ever read in the newspaper anything about Oswald's ability to drive an automobile?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I didn't read anything about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not Oswald could drive a car or not?

Mr. WOOD. I think he could, because my mother told me something about him going to Mexico or something.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now you said that your mother told you something about Oswald going to Mexico, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never were aware of the fact or heard that Oswald could not drive a car, is that right?

Mr. WOOD. Do you mean--I didn't get what you said.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did anybody ever tell you that Oswald couldn't drive a car?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard that?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you don't know that now?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; I thought he could drive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did this other man that he was with fire a rifle at all?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did not?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, I want to show you some pictures of some men, and these pictures have previously been marked as Commission's Exhibit 451 and 453 through 456, sir. There are five of them. I want you to look at them and tell me if any of the pictures look like the guy you saw at the rifle range that you think was Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. None of those look like him?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. WOOD. That one with the paper in his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. WOOD. That man right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one right here?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head. There are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that picture before?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. One like it?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has been one like that in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you two pictures that have been previously marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. Tell me whether that is the rifle the man had?

Mr. WOOD. It does look like the rifle, but the scope looks a little funny to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. What looks funny about the scope?

Mr. WOOD. Because I seem to remember when I got a glance, it seemed to get bigger at the end and get smaller as it went along.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that is not the scope that was on the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure, but I would say that looks like a foreign made scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. The one in this picture does?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are pretty sure in your own mind that the scope that was on the rifle at the range was not an American scope, is that correct?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; it looked Japanese.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sterling, you noticed how the sling is mounted on this rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is mounted on the side on the butt, is it not? And on the side of the rifle, also?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the sling was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. I am not too sure. It was either mounted underneath or on the side. I am not sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't remember one way or the other?

Mr. WOOD. I think it was mounted on the side. I am not too sure. I wouldn't want to be positive.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now do you remember that the FBI showed you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is this the same picture?

Mr. WOOD. As I remember, it looks like the same picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that the weapon in the picture that they showed you was not the one you observed out at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. I said that was not the one. It didn't have this background in it. It's a picture that he showed me.

Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same picture the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, the FBI did show you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; it was an enlarged picture.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell them that that was the rifle that the man you think is Oswald had, or was not the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I told them that was not the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. You told them that was not the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The rifle in this picture, is this the same rifle? Can you tell, or a different rifle that was in the picture that the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. You mean to say--I don't know what you said.

Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent showed you a picture of a rifle?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is the rifle that he showed you, the picture that he showed you, the picture of the same rifle as is in the picture we have here on the desk, or were they different rifles or can you tell?

Mr. WOOD. I think they were the same rifles, except the rifle that he showed me didn't have that scope. I told them that that wasn't the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you told me just now?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; so it would be a different rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. My question is this. Note that I am not asking you now whether this rifle is the same as the one that the fellow at the rifle range had, or whether or not the rifle that the FBI showed you, or the picture that the FBI showed you, was a picture of the same rifle that Oswald had on the rifle range--I just want to know now whether you can tell me whether the picture that I am showing you now is a picture of the same rifle as the FBI showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you still say now that the scope on this rifle doesn't look like the scope the guy at the rifle range had?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. But this is the same scope as in the picture that the FBI showed you?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI ask you about the sling mount on the rifle?

Mr. WOOD. I think they did.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you tell them about that?

Mr. WOOD. I think I told them it was mounted on the underneath, I am not too sure. I wasn't too positive then when I told them that.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure now?

Mr. WOOD. I am not sure now, because I didn't have that long of glance.

Mr. LIEBELER. How did the FBI agent talk to you? Did he try to convince you that it wasn't the same rifle, or just show the picture and let you tell?

Mr. WOOD. Let me tell.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't try to convince you one way or the other?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; he didn't try to force me one way or the other.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now the scope that we have here on this rifle is enlarged at the forward end, is it not?

Mr. WOOD. It is big towards the muzzle of the rifle; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the way the scope was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range, too?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; but it was the same size as that, and it got smaller as it came to a point, but it was a big point.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, this one here is big at the back and it gets smaller in the middle, and then gets bigger at the front end. Now tell me the difference between this one and the one that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. This was bigger and it got smaller as it went along.

Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't get bigger at the forward end?

Mr. WOOD. No; I didn't get that good a glance, but what I saw is what I told you.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right, you are pretty sure in your own mind that that was Lee Oswald that you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Kenney Longley?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was he out there that day?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he see this guy?

Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir; I think I did, because I was standing, he was waiting in a booth to shoot. They all were filled up, and he stood back there and was noticing it, too. He noticed the fire coming out of the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, have you talked to Kenney Longley about this fellow at the rifle range since the assassination?

Mr. WOOD. I haven't seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else out there at the range that day that you knew?

Mr. WOOD. A friend of mine, Charles McDowell, but he was busy gathering shells.

Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't see this guy, as far as you know?

Mr. WOOD. I don't know if he saw him. I don't think so. Maybe he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked to McDowell about it since the assassination?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ask McDowell whether he saw this fellow?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; but I am pretty sure, because he was right next to him, and he was down under the booth gathering shells.

Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you have talked to McDowell about this guy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you talk to him about?

Mr. WOOD. I talked to him about, I told him that very same night I talked to my daddy, and I called him on the phone and told him that I saw that man out there, and we talked about the President's death, and that was all. He said he remembered him, too, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell him that you thought that the fellow at the rifle range was Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did he say?

Mr. WOOD. He didn't know, and he wasn't too sure, but he wasn't as close as I was to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where does this fellow live?

Mr. WOOD. McDowell?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. WOOD. Marsalis, the first street over from where I do. I don't know the address.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Sterling, I don't think I have any more questions that I can think of right now, but I want to say this: If you can think of anything else about this fellow that I haven't asked you about, or that you think you should tell me, I want you to tell me now so we can get it on the record.

Mr. WOOD. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I have to tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty good shot?

Mr. WOOD. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed.

Mr. LIEBELER. Okay, Sterling, I want to thank you very much. You have been very helpful. I hope we weren't too hard on you. The Commission wants you to know that it appreciates the cooperation you have given to us.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much.

Mr. WOOD. All right.

TESTIMONY OF THERESA WOOD

The testimony of Theresa Wood was taken at 4 p.m., on April 1 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. WOOD. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a staff attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Mr. Rankin wrote a letter to your husband and your son last week, telling them that he wanted to question them. I have just concluded questioning both of them. I would like to ask you a couple of questions about some points that came up during their statements.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name, for the record, please?

Mrs. WOOD. My married name?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; your married name.

Mrs. WOOD. Theresa Wood.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are the wife of Dr. Homer Wood, are you not?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And the mother of Sterling Charles Wood?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall that sometime after the assassination of the President, your husband saw a picture of Oswald either in the newspaper or on television and said something to you about it? Do you remember that?

Mrs. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened, and the circumstances and what you saw?

Mrs. WOOD. He thought he was the same man they saw out at the gun range. In fact, he was sure of it. And he asked Sterling, and Sterling said, "Yes, daddy, it is the same man." And they were very, very sure of it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling in the room? Did your husband first see Oswald's picture on the television or in the newspapers; do you remember?

Mrs. WOOD. I don't remember exactly. I think it was the newspapers or somewhere. They had three pictures of him. I think it was in the newspapers. Could have been on television.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, was Sterling there at the time your husband first spoke of this to you?

Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't think so. I think he later asked Sterling.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether he asked Sterling, or whether Sterling mentioned it of his own accord without any prompting from his father? Do you remember how that happened?

Mrs. WOOD. No, I don't remember exactly. I know they were both talking about it. They were both pretty sure that he was the man.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you have no recollection at this point that your husband first saw a picture and said to you, now, in substance, that this looked like the man he saw on the rifle range and he wanted to wait and see if Sterling recognized him also, and that he purposely did not mention it to Sterling, but waited to see if Sterling would come forward with the same idea? Do you remember that happening?

Mrs. WOOD. No; my husband was very, very sure. In fact, he was positive. And there was a friend that they met at the range. I think it was the same day. He called him to see if he thought, or if he had recognized Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. What was that friends name?

Mrs. WOOD. It was Kenny Longley.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't talk to Longley, did you?

Mrs. WOOD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband did?

Mrs. WOOD. I think my husband called, but he never did talk to the boy. The boy was in school.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if he ever talked to the boy about it afterward?

Mrs. WOOD. I don't think so. Kenney Longley though was a good ways off or something, and I don't know whether he really saw him. According to my husband, he said he could have.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of anybody else that was out at the rifle range that your husband or your son knew who might have seen this fellow?

Mrs. WOOD. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is about all I wanted to ask you. Thank you very much for your cooperation.

TESTIMONY OF GLENN EMMETT SMITH

The testimony of Glenn Emmett Smith was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you sometime last week advising you that I would be in touch with you to take your testimony. I understand also that he included with his letter a copy of the Executive order and resolution just referred to, together with a copy of the rules of procedure for the taking of testimony which have been adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution described above.

Did you receive the letter from Mr. Rankin?

Mr. SMITH. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Those documents were enclosed with it, were they not? Three different documents in that letter?

Mr. SMITH. [Hands papers to attorney.] I'd better let you look, for I don't know what is in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; they are. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you today concerning any knowledge you may have about the alleged sale of a rifle by an individual thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald to one Robert Taylor. We would also like to get from you any information that you have about Oswald's associates in Irving, Tex.

Before we get to the details of that testimony, would you state your full name for the record?

Mr. SMITH. Glenn Emmett Smith.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. SMITH. 1604 Argentia, apartment C.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed?

Mr. SMITH. At Jack's Super Shell, Rock Island and Story Road, Irving.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been employed there?

Mr. SMITH. Since the 25th of April of 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity do you work at the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. I am a drive attendant. I work the driveway.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do prior to the time that you went to work for the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. I was an income tax consultant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Worked in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long were you engaged in that?

Mr. SMITH. Just through the tax months, from January 1 to the 15th of April.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you usually do? Do you usually work service stations?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. SMITH. Fifty-three.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life in Dallas?

Mr. SMITH. No. I have been here since 1936.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you live prior to that time?

Mr. SMITH. Shawnee, Okla.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you born in Oklahoma or born in Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Born in Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved to Oklahoma?

Mr. SMITH. Moved to Oklahoma.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then moved back to Texas?

Mr. SMITH. Moved back to Texas.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know one Robert Taylor?

Mr. SMITH. I think I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known him?

Mr. SMITH. Since I went to work, since the 25th of April 1963.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is Mr. Taylor also employed at the Shell station where you worked?

Mr. SMITH. Well, I don't know if he is going to be let out or not. He is off sick, and I understand that Mr. Smith has hired another man, which I know he got a man working. I don't know if he is going to let Robert come back.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Mr. Taylor did work at the Shell station from at least April of 1963, up until sometime when he became ill, is that correct?

Mr. SMITH. He was working there when I went to work, and he worked there steadily.

Mr. LIEBELER. He became ill?

Mr. SMITH. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Approximately when did he get sick?

Mr. SMITH. He has been off a week and a half now. He went home sick Saturday a week ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. He hasn't been at work since that time?

Mr. SMITH. Well, he come back and worked 3 hours last Friday and had to go home again.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of work does Mr. Taylor do at the station? He is--is he a driveway attendant?

Mr. SMITH. No; a mechanic.

Mr. LIEBELER. You actually have a shop there at the Shell station?

Mr. SMITH. We do minor repairs, no major, just minor repair.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old is Mr. Taylor, do you know, possibly?

Mr. SMITH. I think he is 49. I believe he told me he is 49.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Taylor about a man who Taylor thought might be or was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I did not. I heard Mr. Taylor, if I may tell you this----

Mr. LIEBELER. I want you to tell me what you know about it.

Mr. SMITH. There was an FBI man called out and talked to us, and I heard Mr. Taylor tell him between customers now, I was just catching little words, and not enough to make very much sense, but I did hear him tell that he had traded a rifle or bought a rifle or something from Oswald.