Chapter XVI: Part 16

Mr. JENNER. What was the reason for the difficulties he had with respect to fellow employees, and why did those relationships worsen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, we work in a rather tight area. There is little room to move around in the darkroom, just about enough room for a man to stand by the developing trays and allow one person to squeeze behind him and get by, and he would make it a habit of just bursting through there head-on with no regard to who was in the room if anyone was there, and also we were required to get proofs of the work we had done on a Bruning machine, which is somewhat like a Thermofax--it works on the same principle of making a proof of it or a copy of it.

Mr. JENNER. I tried a patent case against the Bruning Co., so I know what their machines are.

Mr. OFSTEIN. But the other department with which we shared the Bruning machine requires a little more delicate work with the machine, as their proofs are proofread. Ours are just for further use in case a job comes back and we need to know what was on the job. He would burst in there and if someone else was on it, didn't make him any difference, he would go ahead and put his work through and, of course, this made people mad about it.

Mr. JENNER. How would you describe all this, that he was inconsiderate?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And selfish and aggressive with respect to himself and impatient with the rights of others?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I think he thought he had the right of way in any case, either that or he was just in a hurry to get through, and through his hurrying be made no regard for anyone else's well-being or anyone else's jobs.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead.

Mr. OFSTEIN. I never heard him ask anyone to go to lunch with him, or no one, including myself, that I recall, asked him to go to lunch. I believe I might have asked him at one time and he always ate alone.

Mr. JENNER. Did he eat with you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Even though you asked him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; not a bit.

Mr. JENNER. But you did ask him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe I did; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he declined?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And at least he didn't accept the invitation?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice in particular, since you mentioned this without my prompting, that he did eat all by himself?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I noticed that he didn't eat with anyone in the shop.

Mr. JENNER. He was not a friendly person, then?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He wasn't an outgoing person. I thought he could be friendly if, as with the Russian language incident--there was something in common, something that he would take an interest in.

Mr. JENNER. But he made no effort to develop things in common with others; is that right?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No; that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he had an attitude of resentment toward anybody or anything or his lot in life?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not extremely or exactly resentment. I would say he didn't get along with people and that several people had words with him at times about the way he barged around the plant, and one of the fellows back in the photosetter department almost got in a fight with him one day, and I believe it was Mr. Graef that stepped in and broke it up before it got started, but he was also offered rides by Mr. Graef, and I offered him a ride a couple of times either to his home or wherever he wanted to catch a bus, and I know that he always declined my offer of a ride.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in the evening when he would leave he would say, "I am going up to the post office to pick up my mail," and a couple of times I would offer to give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my way and I have to come in this direction anyway to Live Oak before I turn, which is only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would walk.

Mr. JENNER. Did the subject matter of his experience with firearms ever arise?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time in which he indicated or in which there was discussion of his ability in the use of firearms?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It seems that he said while he was in the Marines that he qualified as a marksman.

Mr. JENNER. By the way, what is that rating; do you know?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain in the Marines--it differs from the Army, I am sure.

Mr. JENNER. What is a marksman in the Army, what level of skill is that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. If I remember correctly, marksman is just barely qualifying, and "expert," of course, is the top you can go.

Mr. JENNER. I have read about snipers--are they "experts", is that their classification?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I'm not certain, but I'm sure they have to be fairly handy with a weapon.

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is a little uncertain in this area, is it not?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That is, with respect to what Oswald might or did say to you on the subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I know he said he qualified and I'm almost certain that he said as a marksman.

Mr. JENNER. Did your discussion go beyond that, did he elaborate on it in other words?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that's about the only instance in your recollection in which there was a discussion on the subject?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his industry, his promptness, his attendance?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He seemed to usually arrive on time and expressed a desire to work overtime if he was needed, except during the week at times there were periods when he said he had to go to school and he would leave with some books, I believe they were typing books from the library, and he mentioned that he was going to Crozier Tech at night, and I believe this was one night a week or two at the most. Other than that, he was there every day, the best I recall, and he did work one Saturday.

Mr. JENNER. Did he have difficulty obtaining Saturday work from the company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Why?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, they go on an experience and seniority basis as to overtime. The people with more seniority have a choice as to whether they want to work or not and usually they do.

Mr. JENNER. To make that extra money?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And also, does skill have anything to do with it--you mentioned experience--you meant to include in that experience--his skill for the level of attainment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And he had not reached the point at which all of these factors combined enabled him to command or be reasonably fortunate in respect to having overtime work?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Had your skills reached the point at which you had overtime work on Saturday when you sought it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What about his aptitudes with respect to the work for which he was being trained?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He always strived to try to do good. It seemed like he was fast, but I noticed that quite a few of his jobs that he did perform did come back within a normal working day.

Mr. JENNER. More than the normal?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. There are errors always made, I suppose, by everybody?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. But your impression is that his percentage of error was above average?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion of that in and among your fellow workers and with Mr. Graef?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; it was battered around for quite awhile--exactly how long, I don't know. About the way that he was turning out a lot of work, because it had to be redone, therefore wasting company materials.

Mr. JENNER. And time?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; and they had decided, I believe, it must have been a month before they finally let him go--to dismiss him.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the general scuttlebutt around the place?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That he was reaching the end of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did ever the occasion arise when you learned anything with respect to whether he was ever able to operate an automobile or ever owned one or got in one to drive it?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; every time I saw him on the street coming down this way after work he was walking.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever bring any of these books to work--books as distinguished from newspapers?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I don't recall if he did or not, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a Russian newspaper that elicited this discussion between you as to the use of the Russian language, or was it a book?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was a newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. Not a book?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tell him where you had learned Russian?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just said while I was in the service I had picked it up.

Mr. JENNER. Did he at any time ever say or did you ever get the impression that he had studied Russian while he was in the service?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Your impression was what in that connection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, that he could either have learned it while in the Soviet Union or at a school.

Mr. JENNER. At a private school?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; private or public school.

Mr. JENNER. But not while he was in the service?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he never led me to believe that.

Mr. JENNER. The information he gave you with respect to the disposition of military units in Russia--that information was of the character you have already related--that the tanks were in one area?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the other types of equipment in another, and did he tell you where these various units were?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The best I recall, he mentioned that, as I say, that he never saw a vapor trail of a plane around Minsk, and he mentioned the location of the tanks, but I am not sure whether he mentioned whether it was north or south.

Mr. JENNER. Of what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. In the Soviet Union.

Mr. JENNER. In relating this to you, was it in terms of his having seen these units?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was the impression I got, though he never directly said so.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about--after you learned that he was married to a Russian woman--did he say anything to you about how he had met her and courted her or any of the circumstances with respect to his marrying her?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was just that he had married a Russian citizen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And brought her to this country?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his military career?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that he had served in the Marines and that he had served in Japan.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his discharge from the Marines?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. By the way when you first met this man, had you ever heard of him before or anything about him to your then recollection?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What else did he say about the military dispositions?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said he felt it was a rather poor way to distribute the military because of the fact that support needed by one type of unit, such as the infantry, needs tanks--took such a long delay because they had to move it from another segment of the country and that he thought this was a rather poor situation.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about the location of the--these units--were they widely disbursed, that is, let's take a tank unit--did you get the impression that the tank unit would be located far away from Minsk or near Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he said the tanks were in the north and I'm not familiar whether Minsk is in the north of Russia or not?

Mr. JENNER. Did you get the impression they were not in Minsk, however?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did he say, if anything, about units that were located in and about Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. The only thing he mentioned along that line was the military headquarters and to the best of my recollection, it was a secret police.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned in the--is that what you mean by the secret police, the NVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, that they had a headquarters there in Minsk?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he make any comment about the MVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Only that they had inquired about him several times and that they didn't follow him around. He said they were somewhat like our own Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. JENNER. Did he ever make any comparison that was, you thought, an attempt at being invidious with respect to the FBI as against the MVD?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he just said that their operations were somewhat similar in checking out people they wanted to check on.

Mr. JENNER. Other than that, did he ever say anything about the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his observations that regarded, for example, an area in which he could see jet contrails, whether he would also find nearby, or even at a distance, any other military units?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said if he saw tank treads of tanks, that he wouldn't see aircraft or infantry units nearby, and that if he saw contrails, it was the same as the infantry units, that they just wouldn't intermingle them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything to you about what had led him to make these observations?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, as I said earlier that he had never seen any contrails, he said, in the Minsk area and that he had been in Moscow and I presumed he had seen the type units that were stationed at Minsk and possibly at Moscow.

Mr. JENNER. Is there any work done at Jaggars-Chile-Stovall with the use of microdot?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know what a microdot is?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was explained to me by Lee Oswald.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.

Mr. OFSTEIN. He asked me one day if I knew the term "microdot", and I told him, "no", I wasn't familiar with it and he told me that that was the method of taking a large area of type or a picture and reducing it down to an extremely small size for condensing and for purposes, such as where you had a lot of type to photograph to confine them into a small area, and he said that that is the way spies sometimes sent messages and pictures of diagrams and so on, was to take a microdot photograph of it and place it under a stamp and send it. I presumed that he had either read this in a book or had some knowledge of it from somewhere, but where, I didn't know.

Mr. JENNER. When did this conversation occur with respect to the termination of his employment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. This was possibly 2 or 3 months before.

Mr. JENNER. So, this was after the time that the Russian newspaper had shown up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was it after the time you learned that he married a Russian girl and brought her to this country?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That occurred afterwards?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What reaction did you have when Oswald talked about--raised the subject of microdots and their use or possible use in espionage?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I just thought that as far as he was concerned, it was possibly another phase of photography and that he was interested in it. It has since, come up down at the company--the use of microdots and the different techniques, but we are still not employing those techniques and I thought possibly that he might have also, as I have several times, come to read things about microfilm and, of course you see it in these science fiction movies of space travel and so--the use of microfilm, and I presumed this was along the same lines.

Mr. JENNER. Did it ever arouse in you any alarm or any doubt?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; I just thought it was possibly a passing piece of conversation.

Mr. JENNER. Here again you didn't become suspicious or concerned?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you speak to anybody about that incident?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir. After Oswald was released from employment, I did ask the recruiting sergeant for Army security here in town, who I was stationed with overseas, about the possibility of getting the FBI to run a routine check on him because of the fact that I have done security work, and the fact that I also--this was just before I wrote the letter to Oswald inviting him and his wife over--due to the fact that I wanted to keep my record clean. Well, I didn't suspect him as being a spy or anything like that--I just wanted to make sure I was with the right company, and he told me that it was probably nothing.

Mr. JENNER. You wanted to inquire not only with respect to him but also whether you were with the right company?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, sir, I wouldn't jeopardize losing any chance of getting a security clearance at anytime I needed it.

Mr. JENNER. And, Sergeant Crozier, did you say his name was--I believe it is Sergeant Geiger.

Mr. OFSTEIN. His first name is Tom--I can't remember his last name now.

Mr. JENNER. Or, is it Kriegler?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Kriegler--yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. He had been in the service with you, you had served together?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, he reassured you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that it was probably nothing to worry about.

Mr. JENNER. When you discussed this Russian language newspaper with Oswald, was there anything said as to the source of the paper?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not immediately. I believe it was possibly about 2 months before he left--I asked him where he got the paper and I said that I wanted to find a little more up-to-date material to study Russian with, than what you find in the library, and that I had looked around town and on the newsstands that I saw handling them--Russian language newspapers and he mentioned that he got it from a firm in New York or Washington--Victor A. Kamkin.

Mr. JENNER. That's K-a-m-k-i-n [spelling]?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, he gave you the address in New York City?

Mr. OFSTEIN. It was New York or Washington--I don't know for certain. I made an error in my report to the FBI to that respect.

Mr. JENNER. The fact is you were uncertain, but you indicated to the FBI more positively?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; whenever the agent came to my home and picked up the materials, the address was there and we clarified that.

Mr. JENNER. What materials did he pick up?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, Lee Oswald had given me a Russian newspaper, "The Soviet White Russian," and a couple of magazines--the one being a magazine newspaper type thing and one a magazine, and the FBI agent wanted these--one of them had his handwriting on the back.

Mr. JENNER. And, those were turned over to the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did the FBI approach you or did you approach the FBI?

Mr. OFSTEIN. They approached me.

Mr. JENNER. When was that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was sometime in December of last year.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. It was after the assassination?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any FBI agent to your knowledge ever speak to you about Oswald anytime prior to November 22, 1963?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And, other than your talk with the recruiting sergeant, Sergeant Kriegler, had you drawn the matter to the attention of any Government agent or agency?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do any of these names refresh your recollection as to the newspapers or magazines that he had--"Soviet White Russian"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that as being what?

Mr. OFSTEIN. A local newspaper from the White Russian portion of the Soviet Union?

Mr. JENNER. And "The Crocodile"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; that was a--it would be hard to say whether that would be a newspaper or a magazine. It seemed like it was thick and stapled as a magazine, but in the form of a newspaper.

Mr. JENNER. And, then "The Agitator"?

Mr. OFSTEIN. That was a magazine.

Mr. JENNER. Now, did he speak of these or did he have one or more of these off and on during his employment, or was there just one occasion that you saw them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe the only time he had them down there was one incident when I picked them up and the other time later on when he brought these to me with the address of Victor Kamkin.

Mr. JENNER. After the specific instance about which you have testified, there was a subsequent instance in which he brought you for possible ordering purposes, some additional either periodicals or newspapers?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Among which were the names of which I have related to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right. Now, he did mention that "The Agitator" was a political magazine and that I probably wouldn't want to order.

Mr. JENNER. He did say that it might well be something you wouldn't want to order?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Had you heard of "The Agitator" up to this point?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. At no time while you were at Monterey did "The Agitator" come to your attention?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do they use Russian language newspapers and periodicals, that is, printed in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. In the Monterey language school?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he surrender these papers and these periodicals to you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; he gave them to me and I told him--I thanked him for them and told him I would bring them back within a couple of days and I was going to glance through them and he said that would be all right, that I could keep them.

Mr. JENNER. That you could keep them and you didn't have to return them?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Right.

Mr. JENNER. You surrendered them to the FBI, did you?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. On those--it seems to me you said earlier there was some handwriting on one or more of these newspapers or periodicals?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Whose handwriting?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Lee Oswald's.

Mr. JENNER. Was the handwriting on those newspapers or periodicals placed on those items in your presence?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe they were--I believe that was the address of Victor Kamkin on the back of one of them.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald in your presence wrote the address of Kamkin on some one of these documents?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you seek to have him help you with your Russian beyond what you have now related to us?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; I asked him if he knew any other people who spoke Russian, and he indicated that he did, that he knew several Russian immigrants and I asked him at the time if he would be able to give me anyone's address so that I could speak with them and build up my vocabulary, and my ability to speak it, and he just kept putting me off and saying, "In time you'll meet them, in time you'll meet them" and I never did meet any of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did he give any reason for his apparent putting you off?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; he said that these people liked to speak with Americans who had an interest in their language, but they wouldn't want to take just anyone who went down to the library and picked up a book and sputtered off a few words. He said they enjoyed having someone around who could more or less keep up a running conversation with them.

Mr. JENNER. You thought he was classifying you as one who had a fairly poor command of the language?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And that he had some hesitation about throwing you in with a group that spoke fluently?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. This was not a derogatory attitude on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; he said with a little bit of study that I could possibly get in with the groups and speak with them.

Mr. JENNER. And your feeling is fairly firm that his reluctance in that connection was along the lines you have indicated rather than a desire on his part to keep you from that group?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you feel that had you had a better command of the Russian language he would have been willing to introduce you into that circle?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe he would have; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he had any social contact with any of the people in the plant?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What is your impression as to whether he did or didn't?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Well, I feel that he possibly got along with me better than anyone else down there and we had no social contact.

Mr. JENNER. He had none with you and you rationalized from that he had none with anybody else?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That judgment was affected by the fact also that he appeared not to be getting along very well with others in the plant?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about being a Marxist?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject ever mentioned?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No.

Mr. JENNER. You mentioned the secret police, did any conversation ever occur with respect to any contact of his with, or any contact by, the secret police with him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. He said that they talked to him once or twice while he was there and that was all, but that mainly it was just like the FBI would be running a check on someone here--they would speak with people who knew them or who were located around them.

Mr. JENNER. Was there anything ever discussed during the period he was employed about any particular problems of his in Russia, first, let me say this--any attempt on his part to defect from the United States and become a Russian citizen?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Any illnesses on his part?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Any difficulties he may or did or might have encountered in connection with his return to the United States?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Or of his getting his wife out of Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of his getting out of Russia discussed at all?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was the problem with the Cuban nation or with Mr. Castro or any of Castro's activities ever discussed?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir; at one time when they were having a little difficulty down there. I don't recall just what the difficulty was at the time, but I made a rather derogatory remark about Fidel Castro's ancestry, and he never seemed to get upset about it.

Mr. JENNER. You just got no response out of him at all on that?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Just a sort of a shrug of the shoulders.

Mr. JENNER. I noticed there was a discussion between you or he with you, at least, about keeping to yourself the fact that he had been in Russia?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Was there such an incident?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Will you tell us about it--how it arose, what the circumstances were, and what he said and what you said?

Mr. OFSTEIN. I believe it was the same time that he informed me that he had been in the Soviet Union--he mentioned that he didn't want it to get around, at this time--this was the time I got the impression that possibly he had been an agent--what was a fleeting impression--and I remarked later that apparently he had told someone else down there because someone mentioned it to me about his having a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. Was this before he told you he had one?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; this was after--in fact, I believe it was after he had been released from employment, but at the time that he did ask me to keep the fact that he had been in Russia to myself, I presumed that I was the only one that knew anything about his Russian activities, that he had even been in the Soviet Union or had a Russian wife.

Mr. JENNER. I wonder if this would sort of refresh your recollection--Victor Kamkin Bookstore, Inc., 2906 14th Street NW., Washington 9, D.C.?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; that seems like it, that seems like it.

Mr. JENNER. That sparks your recollection--with Washington, D.C., as distinguished from any other city?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever write Kamkin?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes; I got several catalogues from him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever order any Russian literature from him?

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be pertinent to the subject matter of the Commission's investigation, which I haven't prompted up to the moment?

Mr. OFSTEIN. As directly related to the assassination?

Mr. JENNER. Well--either way--you feel free to say.

Mr. OFSTEIN. No, sir; to the best of my knowledge--no.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything on the subject matter along the lines that I have questioned you that is in your contacts with Lee Oswald which have not been brought out, that you would like to tell us about, which you think might be helpful?

Mr. OFSTEIN. Nothing that I can recall. As I say, most of the things that he did tell me--I thought were mainly in the lines of conversation and nothing more, and that he never made any political advances one way or the other or gave his own political views. I mean, he never told me anything derogatory about the United States or about the Soviet Union--just that he had resided there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, if you wish, you may read your deposition and make any corrections in it and sign it, or you are of liberty to waive that if you wish. You can do whatever you want--either way, but you have the right to read it and correct it if it needs correcting or additions and to sign it. I would like to know either way so that in case you decide to waive it, the reporter has a kind of a certification different from the kind that is put on when you elect to sign it.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And you are entitled to a copy of the deposition if you wish to purchase one from this young lady, and you can make arrangements with her in that respect.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine. I will waive the right to sign.

Mr. JENNER. And if at anytime you want a copy of your deposition, call Miss Oliver and if you happen to forget her name, talk to the U.S. attorney and he will give you her name.

Mr. OFSTEIN. Fine.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much for coming.

Mr. OFSTEIN. All right. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES JOSEPH LE BLANC

The testimony of Charles Joseph Le Blanc was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Joseph Le Blanc, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler, I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Commission, wrote you last week advising that we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he included with his letter a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand, Mr. Le Blanc, that you were employed by the William B. Reily Coffee Co., the William B. Reily Co. more precisely, and still are.

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That you were employed by that company during the time that Lee Harvey Oswald was also employed by it. Is that correct?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we get into the details, would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. LE BLANC. Charles Joseph Le Blanc.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Le Blanc?

Mr. LE BLANC. 2824 South Roman.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that here in New Orleans?

Mr. LE BLANC. New Orleans.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where and when were you born, sir?

Mr. LE BLANC. November 1, 1929. New Orleans, La.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived here in New Orleans all of your life?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I lived in Metairie for--oh, I would say all but the last 10 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then you moved to New Orleans?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. By whom are you employed?

Mr. LE BLANC. William B. Reily Coffee Co.

Mr. LIEBELER. And how long have you worked for them?

Mr. LE BLANC. Nine years.

Mr. LIEBELER. In what capacity are you employed by them?

Mr. LE BLANC. What do you mean? What I----

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do?

Mr. LE BLANC. Maintenance man.

Mr. LIEBELER. You work as a maintenance man?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What do you do in that job?

Mr. LE BLANC. General maintenance.

Mr. LIEBELER. You keep the machinery in running order?

Mr. LE BLANC. The machinery and different office equipment that needs to be fixed.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of machinery do they have over there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Packaging machinery for the coffee.

Mr. LIEBELER. For packaging coffee?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do they grind the coffee up too and mix it and blend it?

Mr. LE BLANC. They roast it, grind it, and then it goes into these hoppers, and then down to the packaging machinery.

Mr. LIEBELER. It is packed in cans or in paper sacks or----

Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or both?

Mr. LE BLANC. Cans and bags.

Mr. LIEBELER. How many maintenance men, approximately, do they have working over there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Let's see; four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Four?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, four.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that the usual number that they have?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, that is about it mostly.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee Oswald was employed by the Reily Company?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us, as best you can recall, when you first met Oswald and what your relationship with him was, what kind of a person he was, what he did.

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, when they first hired him, well, they brought him to me, because I was to break him in on his job, so I started the procedure of going--start from the fifth floor on down, work a floor each day with him to take and get him broke in on the job and start showing him the routine, how to go about greasing. The first day, I mean when I was showing him, it look like if he caught on to it, all right, if he didn't, it was still all right. He looked like he was just one of these guys that just didn't care whether he learned it or he didn't learn it. And then after I took and--we usually go by the week, because usually after a week anybody with any mechanical knowledge, there is nothing to it, because all it is is finding the grease and oil fittings and we put him on his own. I put him on the fifth floor and told him to take care of everything on the fifth floor and I would be back shortly to check. I would take and put him up there, and about a half hour or 45 minutes or so, I would go back up and check how he is doing. I would go up there and I wouldn't find him. So I asked the fellows that would be working on the floor had they seen him, and they said yes, he squirted the oil can a couple of times around different things and they don't know where he went. So I would start hunting all over the building. There is five stories on one side and four on the other. I would cover from the roof on down and I wouldn't locate him, and I asked him, I said, "Well, where have you been?" And all he would give me was that he was around. I asked him, "Around where?" He says, "Just around," and he would turn around and walk off. On one occasion when I was in the shop and I was working on some sort of piece of machinery--I can't recall what it was at the present time--and he come in the shop and he was standing there by me and watching me, and I asked him, I says, "Are you finished all your greasing?" He said yes. So he asked me, said, "Well, can I help you?" I said, "No, what I am doing I don't need no help." So he stood there a few minutes, and all of a sudden he said, "You like it here?" I said, "What do you mean?" He says, "Do you like it here?" I says, "Well, sure I like it here. I have been here a long time, about 8-1/2 years or so." He says, "Oh, Hell, I don't mean this place." I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He says, "This damn country." I said, "Why, certainly, I love it. After all, this is my country." He turned around and walked off. He didn't say any more. And then after that a lot of times I would be looking for him and the engineer would be looking for him, and on quite a number of occasions when it would get to be a coffeebreak time, we usually go next door to the Crescent City Garage to get a Coke, and there he would be sitting in there drinking a Coke and looking at these magazines.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a regular break time?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the shop?

Mr. LE BLANC. We had 9 o'clock in the morning and 1:30 in the evening. Each one of them was a 10-minute break.

Mr. LIEBELER. What time did you usually start work in the morning?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I started on different hours there for awhile. For awhile when he was there, I think I was around 8 to 5, and I pretty well stayed those hours as long as----

Mr. LIEBELER. Oswald was there?

Mr. LE BLANC. While Oswald was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Except for the break periods, you were supposed to be at your job----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. In the plant?

Mr. LE BLANC. In the plant. That is right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now what kind of supervision did Oswald have in his work? You said that you took him around and tried to teach him how to do the job, but then after you finished breaking him in, at least as far as the fifth floor is concerned, he would be pretty much on his own, wouldn't he?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. I mean from the--I started him on the fifth, and then he would work his way on down to the first floor. See? The way I broke him in, I told him, "Make sure that you have got everything on that one floor," and I said, "If it takes you a day to do it, let it take you a day," I said, "but make sure that you have got everything greased and oiled and cleaned." And that is what he was supposed to do, and I told him, I said, "Then if you get finished the fifth floor, or whatever floor you are on, you can always work to the next floor." And then in the evening at 3:15 when the lines were shut down, we had these three machines that had to be cleaned, oiled and greased every day and sometimes twice a day--it all depends on how they ran--and he had to see to it that each evening at 3:15 they was cleaned and greased.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did he have anybody keeping track of him as a general proposition? He really didn't, did he? I mean, he was just----

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the majority of the time he had somebody over him, but as a practice, I mean after you got broke in on your job, well, they wouldn't look after you, keep looking after you. They figured, well, you knew your job and you would go ahead and do your job. But after awhile, well, they seen he was drifting off. Right to the last day before they let him go, why, we kept an eye on him, because we seen then that he wasn't doing the work that he was supposed to be doing.

Mr. LIEBELER. He really wasn't doing the work?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. He wasn't greasing the machines?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. And you see, we have a greasing log that when you grease the machine you log it the day that you grease it, and actually a lot of times I think he might have put stuff down in the log that he didn't even get to sometimes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Just so I can get an idea of what kind of work he was doing, how were the machines greased? Did he have a grease gun or cups and----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; well, we have an air grease gun and we also have these hand-type grease guns.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you used just regular Alemite fittings and grease guns?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. So I would imagine from time to time he ended up with the grease on his hands and it was a greasy job?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; it was a dirty job.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever complain about that?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, he would complain now and then. I would tell him, well, that goes in with the job of oiling and greasing.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now was he just basically an oiler and greaser, or was he classified as a maintenance man?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is a different thing?

Mr. LE BLANC. He was hired as an oiler and greaser and helper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to have any kind of mechanical proficiency at all? I mean, could you tell? Did he seem to know his way around machines?

Mr. LE BLANC. It didn't look like he had. I think--I mean I don't know--I think he had that in his application, that he was mechanically inclined, but it didn't show up that way.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversations with Oswald that you can remember?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, he was a boy of very few words. He would walk past you and wouldn't even ask how you are doing, or come and talk, like a lot of us, we would stop and maybe pass a few jokes or just talk a little with each other, but him--I think it was 3 months that he was with us--still, I think if he said 100 words to me, it was plenty, because even when I was breaking him in he wasn't the type boy that would ask you different things about the machines. I was doing all the talking and he was just looking.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did these absences of his occur pretty much all the time, or did it get worse as he stayed there?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, toward the last it begin to get pretty regular, and that is when I think they decided to let him go. And another thing I recall: He had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just [demonstrating] just like a kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he used his finger like a gun. He would go, "Pow!" and I used to look at him, and I said, "Boy, what a crackpot this guy is!"

Mr. LIEBELER. That is what you thought?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes. Right off the bat I said, "This is a crackpot"; right off.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as a joke, you mean, or----

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I didn't know what to think of it, you know, because he--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. If you would walk past him, he would do that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he smile or laugh, or what?

Mr. LE BLANC. No. When he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. That is what used to get me. If somebody would be doing something in a joking manner, at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or would smile either, and that is why I could never figure him out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald have any other associates or people that worked with him closely in the plant, or would you say that you probably worked with him as closely as anybody else?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, I imagine I was about the closest, myself and the other maintenance man.

Mr. LIEBELER. The other maintenance men? There were three more?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, there is the engineer, and they had this other boy.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the engineer is Emmett Barbe--I think you all have a statement from him--and then the other boy was Arturo Rodriguez.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Mexican or Puerto Rican background?

Mr. LE BLANC. He is Mexican, I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Oswald was associated with Rodriguez outside of the plant at all?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any way of knowing?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever talk to you about his family?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; that was something he very seldom talked about, and myself and the engineer, Emmett Barbe, we always were talking about our families. He had quite a bit of sickness and I had quite a bit of sickness, and a lot of times we would be talking about our families and kids and Oswald, he never would bring in his family, and it was a good while after he was employed with us that I actually found out he was married, because I didn't think he was married because he never did talk about his wife or kids or nobody.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have a lunch break----

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. During the day, you had a lunch break?

Mr. LE BLANC. We had 11 and 11:30. Now at that time I don't know whether we just had the 11:30 or we had two breaks--I can't recall--but I think it was two breaks, lunch breaks, 11 and 11:30.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald eat lunch with anybody? Do you remember?

Mr. LE BLANC. Not that I know of. He had never eaten with me, I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you usually have lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, myself, I bring mine; but most of them that don't bring their lunch, they usually go down to the corner restaurant.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald bring his lunch, or did he eat in the restaurant?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, no; I think he went down to the corner restaurant a lot of times.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that Martin's Restaurant?

Mr. LE BLANC. Martin's; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea what he used to have for lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea how much he spent for his lunch?

Mr. LE BLANC. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of a place is Martin's, a pretty inexpensive place or----

Mr. LE BLANC. It is a reasonable place for regular factory--most all the factory workers around there eat there. It is pretty reasonable.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever form any opinion of Oswald? You mentioned that you thought he was probably a little bit of a crackpot or somewhat of a crackpot for playing this game with his fingers like he was shooting a gun, but just generally what did you think of this guy?

Mr. LE BLANC. I just--I used to always think--I didn't know whether he was right or whether he had troubles on his mind or what. I mean, I couldn't actually figure what was actually wrong with him, because, I mean, we would go on break and sit on the driveway on the bench. Usually among the maintenance--we always usually a lot of times sit together and we would talk over the job or something, but he would sit on the bench, and he looked like he would be staring into space, and sometimes you would think he was looking right at you, and if you would happen to go to say something, he wouldn't answer you. Looked like that is how far his mind was.

Mr. LIEBELER. He seemed to be thinking about something else?

Mr. LE BLANC. Yes; and looked like his mind was far away at all times.

Mr. LIEBELER. There weren't any of the men there that, as far as you knew, he ever really talked to----

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Or anyone he ever opened up to in anyway?

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk about Oswald with the men over there since the assassination?

Mr. LE BLANC. What is that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you talked about Oswald with the other maintenance men or the other men at the plant?

Mr. LE BLANC. No; I tell you, we hadn't talked very much, because we just--we left things as was.

Mr. LIEBELER. You never had any conversations with anybody that you can remember, speculating as to whether Oswald really did this or whether he was capable of it, he was that kind of a guy?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, the most talk was around the plant a lot of times, that they thought he was actually too stupid to actually pull something like that. They didn't think he even had enough brains to pull a foolish thing like that, because that is just the kind of a person he looked to be.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be particularly intelligent or----

Mr. LE BLANC. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be interested in his surroundings or just sort of a----

Mr. LE BLANC. Like in his greasing records, one time something could be spelled right, and just a little ways away he might have to use the same word and it would be all misspelled. I don't know whether he didn't know how to write or he just didn't care how he put it down.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever question him about that or indicate to him that he was misspelling words?

Mr. LE BLANC. Well, on a couple of occasions I told him if he could write plainer, it would be a lot better for me to check, because a lot of times if something would go wrong with a machine, we would go to that greasing log and check when is the last time it was greased, and when you would look at his writing, it would be like Greek, you couldn't hardly understand it.