Chapter II: Part 2

Mr. JENNER. In that correspondence he--has he given you any information as to what they are doing in Haiti? Did you have any information before they left for Haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going to do?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes. I have the information from talking very much about his Haiti venture, and the impression I got was somewhat hazy, but the first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for chemicals and minerals.

Mr. JENNER. For what?

Mr. GLOVER. Minerals of economic value.

Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do this work, or was it independent?

Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that he was the one who was running the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set up business ventures. That is what the other part involved, and I had the impression that this all tied together.

Mr. JENNER. This was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a joint venture of some kind?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really running the show, and I also had the impression, which he didn't emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was any money needed.

Mr. JENNER. Give us your knowledge and also your impression of the De Mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in Dallas?

Mr. GLOVER. I had the impression that they didn't have very much money, because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting business had gone down pretty much. This was about the time when the companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts, and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in getting any oil consultant jobs. This was the impression I got from him and he didn't do very much, except I got the impression that he might have owned some leases, and he----

Mr. JENNER. Oil leases?

Mr. GLOVER. Oil leases. And he talked about one particular one where there was litigation about it. And I got the impression that he didn't have very much money, except possibly some money coming in from the oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. They didn't have anything but very simple food, simple clothes. They hadn't bought anything new. They had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they did, however, have a nice car. But they didn't spend a lot of money and didn't seem to have a lot.

Mr. JENNER. Would you say they attempted to live frugally?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say they attempted to live frugally.

Mr. JENNER. Speaking there about attire, in this connection, as evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall mentioning to the FBI their tennis clothing and from time to time other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being appropriate?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, Mrs. De Mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which the lower half was sort of Bikini like. And George just wore a pair of shorts. That is accepted attire for a man tennis player. We used to go to the Dallas Athletic Country Club east of the city to play, sometimes, because Sam Ballen had a membership, and she was told it is against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about Sam Ballen. Who is he?

Mr. GLOVER. Sam Ballen, I met him in the way I told you, and he told me that he had been in the stock market business in New York, and came here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library for oil well logs. These are the records of the physical measurements made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this. I have known him for the past 2 years--I met him actually when I told you; at Lauriston Marshall's house sometime in 1962, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. Is Ballen a friend of Mr. De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. GLOVER. Ballen is a friend of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression that they were closely acquainted?

Mr. GLOVER. Fairly well, yes; closely acquainted.

Mr. JENNER. Did you play tennis together with Mr. Ballen and the De Mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? Did you continue to have this acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have testified?

Mr. GLOVER. Very much so; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Were there occasions thereafter--social events, parties, visits in the home, and what not, that Sam Ballen participated?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were occasions, although the main association was that we played tennis together. We made a very good team. We have about the same degree of skill at it; yes.

Mr. JENNER. Does he reside here in Dallas?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he does.

Mr. JENNER. He still stays--lives here?

Mr. GLOVER. As far as I know.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know of a company with which he is associated?

Mr. GLOVER. I do not know the name offhand.

Mr. JENNER. And that his name is spelled B-a-l-l-e-n, and his first name is Samuel?

Mr. GLOVER. I just call him Sam. I don't know whether his name is Samuel or not.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know anything about the De Mohrenschildts' views toward religion?

Mr. GLOVER. They are very much against religion, I am quite sure. They don't think very much of organized religion at all.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any information more definite than that? Are they atheistic, are they just--don't have any feeling one way or the other?

Mr. GLOVER. Be hard for me to say. I would think probably that atheistic would be more the correct term, but I don't recall specific remarks that they made.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any political affiliation of the De Mohrenschildts together or separate?

Mr. GLOVER. Any kind of affiliation?

Mr. JENNER. Political or otherwise.

Mr. GLOVER. Political or otherwise. Well, business, he belongs to the Petroleum Club. He talks about being down there. And I don't know of any other organizations.

Mr. JENNER. Well----

Mr. GLOVER. Well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that, because of his son.

Mr. JENNER. That is a charity organization?

Mr. GLOVER. A charity organization. And they were very active in this, because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get money for this purpose. I don't know of any other organizations. I remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at the--I don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for retarded children over in the Cedar Springs area, which it seems that a Mexican-American organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to go to that. I don't know if they were members or not. I think that was sort of a Mexican-American, I am not sure.

Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any political organizations?

Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not have any impression that he belonged to any.

Mr. JENNER. Did they express what their politics were? That is, say, as between being Republican or Democrat?

Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall anything very strong on that subject.

Mr. JENNER. Did you, during your time here in Dallas, become acquainted with Marina and Lee Oswald?

Mr. GLOVER. I did.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state when it was that you first became acquainted with either or both of them.

Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to give a specific time. I met Marina first at the home of George De Mohrenschildt.

Mr. JENNER. All right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting was held, about that? That is, whether this came all of a sudden without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion with the De Mohrenschildts prior to that time. Just tell me the whole circumstances leading up to the moment you met Marina.

Mr. GLOVER. I am not able to state a specific time, but of course it was somewhere, I am not really able to say whether it was sometime in December, or in January, or sometime in that time, or in the first part.

Mr. JENNER. What year?

Mr. GLOVER. This would be the year 1962-63.

Mr. JENNER. Now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you separated. Was that in December of 1962, did you say?

Mr. GLOVER. No, we separated before September 1, 1962. I am not able to say when she (Marina) came to the De Mohrenschildts. Marina came to the De Mohrenschildts several times. The first time I met her and subsequent times, she was also there.

Mr. JENNER. Had there been--has there been any conversation about the Oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met Marina?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure about this, but I would think, yes; they had mentioned her.

Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts had mentioned her?

Mr. GLOVER. Had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but I really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before I came over there. I rather think they mentioned she was coming there previous to my meeting her.

Mr. JENNER. What did they say about her in advance of the meeting?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, they told about, this is as far as I remember, that they told about her coming over here with Oswald and, as far as I remember the impression I got from De Mohrenschildt--it might not have been entirely from him, it may have come later--Oswald had gone to Russia to live and had become a citizen. That is the impression I got. And that he had decided he didn't like Russia and he came back here and brought his Russian-born wife with him, and were living in Fort Worth, and they were having trouble getting along, the Oswalds were.

Mr. JENNER. Getting along with each other?

Mr. GLOVER. Getting along with each other.

Mr. JENNER. You remember that distinctly?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I remember that very distinctly, because they were trying to find a place for Marina to stay.

Mr. JENNER. You learned all this through conversations with the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. GLOVER. Right.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And either or both of them told you that the Oswalds were not getting along?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And that they were seeking what for them?

Mr. GLOVER. They were seeking a place particularly for Marina to stay. She had a baby. And seeking a place for her to stay where she could just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with her, Lee Oswald didn't get along, and I am not sure whether he had lost his job or something. It was suggested it was financial difficulties, the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place for her where she could live.

Mr. JENNER. Did either of the De Mohrenschildts speak Russian?

Mr. GLOVER. So far as I know, both of them spoke Russian.

Mr. JENNER. In your presence?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; spoke Russian, what I assumed to be Russian.

Mr. JENNER. What is your command, if any, of the Russian language?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I know "Da," but I know very little about it. I have started to study Russian in connection with scientific work, because it is very valuable to be able to speak Russian, and I have always wanted to learn to speak Russian, but somehow I never got to do this. It is very slight, actually, and they both, as far as I know, spoke Russian.

Mr. JENNER. Now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that you met Marina on this first occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I am not sure again as to all the details, but I believe that it was this way. That they told about her and that, I came over there one night when she was there. I might have been invited to dinner when she was there, or I might have just come over when she was there, and they called me during the day and said, "Glover, come over and meet this woman."

Mr. JENNER. Your recollection is that either George or Jeanne called you and asked you to come over to their home to meet Marina?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I am quite sure that he invited me to come over there, because that is usually the way. They were always inviting me to come over.

Mr. JENNER. And your impression, this was an evening or during the daytime?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come and stay for a day. It might be in the evening or it might have been on a weekend during the daytime. My impression was, it was in the evening.

Mr. JENNER. But your impression also was that this time that she had been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one?

Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not.

Mr. JENNER. I'm just asking you what your impression was at that time.

Mr. GLOVER. At that time that I first saw her?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. GLOVER. My impression was that she probably had, but I really couldn't be sure about that.

Mr. JENNER. Anything said that evening indicating how she had reached the De Mohrenschildt's home?

Mr. GLOVER. You mean just physically brought there?

Mr. JENNER. Had they, the De Mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? Had she gotten there by bus herself? Had she gotten a cab, or how did she get there?

Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember specifically how she had been brought there.

Mr. JENNER. That subject was not raised so as to give you the impression one way or the other, is that correct?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, I am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, I had the impression that she was living in Fort Worth at the time, and I know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time, I volunteered, since I had a car, to take her down to the bus station with the De Mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to Fort Worth, and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we took her over to Fort Worth. But I am not sure whether that was this time or another time.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then in that connection that there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or that she was capable of doing so?

Mr. GLOVER. That she was capable, yes.

Mr. JENNER. And she knew enough about bus travel between Fort Worth and Dallas and the location of the De Mohrenschildt home so that she, unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, at least go to the Fort Worth bus. I'm not sure about whether they would pick her up or what. That is the impression I got from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to leave by bus.

Mr. JENNER. Who was present? Yourself, Marina, and the two De Mohrenschildts on this occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. I believe that is correct.

Mr. JENNER. Anybody else that you can recall?

Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so, but I could not be a hundred percent sure. I believe that is the way it was.

Mr. JENNER. Have the De Mohrenschildts said anything to you about how they had become acquainted with the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. They had not said anything specifically, but again, I had the impression that because they were Russian speaking and knew some of the other people around the area who were Russian speaking, they learned from people they knew in Fort Worth of this Russian girl who was here in this country.

Mr. JENNER. What, if anything, did they say about their interest in her beyond, let's say, pure curiosity?

Mr. GLOVER. That is really the extent of what they ever said, that they were curious, and also trying to help her out. This was right in character with Jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such situations.

Mr. JENNER. Was she a generous person in that respect?

Mr. GLOVER. I think you would call it generous although you have to realize this is a double-edged sword. People sometimes do things in order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do things out of the goodness of their heart, and I think it was one of the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. Maybe this is my male bias coming into it.

Mr. JENNER. But in any event, they were, on the surface at least, cordial, and seeking to help her?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Did you detect that that was an active and not merely a passive effort on their part?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I felt it was an active thing.

Mr. JENNER. They were pursuing it with some vigor?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. Let's take George in particular. Was it characteristic of him? Was he a generous man and wanted to help others?

Mr. GLOVER. Much less so, I would say, than Mrs. De Mohrenschildt. I rather would attribute it to her. Maybe it is my male bias coming out, blaming it on Jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he went along with this too, and there were several other people I met there who they were trying to be good to. I think they were trying to do this to help. And shortly after my former wife left and I was by myself, I think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do something to help me out.

Mr. JENNER. You met her on this occasion. How many additional occasions were there?

Mr. GLOVER. I can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she came several times to the De Mohrenschildt house.

Mr. JENNER. Alone?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she came several times alone, and I would say two or three times I saw her there.

Mr. JENNER. And each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not accompanied on any of those occasions by Lee Oswald?

Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?

Mr. GLOVER. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What was the length of this visit that you had on the first occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. I am not really sure of the time, but the impression I had, it was in the evening, and again I am not sure which one of the times, but the impression I had, it was in the evening that I was over there, either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. Well, we took, maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around 9 o'clock or something like this, to get a bus to Fort Worth. Whether this was the first time, I really can't be sure.

Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression she and her husband were living together at that time?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was my impression. I am not really sure now whether anything was said to the contrary on that or not. My impression was that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her husband?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I think this is subsequent to this first time I met her. Whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay with someone here in the Dallas area.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know the name?

Mr. GLOVER. I do not remember the name of the people, but they had arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as I recall, a fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out.

Mr. JENNER. Does the name Elena Hall trigger your recollection?

Mr. GLOVER. Elena Hall?

Mr. JENNER. H-a-l-l?

Mr. GLOVER. I don't recall ever having heard that name.

Mr. JENNER. Meller, M-e-l-l-e-r?

Mr. GLOVER. I couldn't be very sure about that. They might have mentioned a name, but I do not recall. They mentioned the names of quite a number of people to me, and I am not sure.

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of Marina on this first occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent person caught up in the situation. Although I have very little to go on, and I could not communicate with her, only through the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak any English on that occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. She spoke practically none. No English. She understood a little bit that people said in English.

Mr. JENNER. But she did not speak it?

Mr. GLOVER. She couldn't speak English. It was very difficult for me to get any real good impression from her.

Mr. JENNER. And she was quite young?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she was quite young.

Mr. JENNER. Let's say this is February of 1963, did you say that was, or March?

Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime in the first part of the year.

Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; it was probably in January. That would be my best recollection. It was during that time. It might have been later than that. I am hazy. The only thing I have to go by is, I learned later after discussion of the visit of Oswald and his wife to our house, I learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place in the latter part of February.

Now I did not recall, I just talked with the other people who lived in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. And other people present recalled this, so this is how I figured the whole business. And I know I met Marina previous to that time.

I know I was away for a week in February when I went on a business trip to Pennsylvania, and so I assume it was somewhere in January, but I really do not remember.

Again, if I had to recall those events, I might be able to. I can remember some of the events, but I am not very sure about it.

Mr. JENNER. When next did you meet Marina after this occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, again, I am not sure at all about those occasions. She would come and stay at the house, and if I came in from playing tennis with George, she might have been there. This may have happened two or three times.

Mr. JENNER. There came an occasion, did there not, in which you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; when I met Lee Oswald the first time, was at their house.

Mr. JENNER. Did Marina accompany the De Mohrenschildts on that occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. When was that and how did that arise, and what was the circumstance?

Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I can remember about this, is again to fix this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, Oswald and his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late February, so it must have been previous to that.

Mr. JENNER. Does the date February 22, 1963, refresh your recollection as to the occasion they came to your home?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I think I remember in the conversation with the FBI they mentioned a date about Washington's Birthday.

Mr. JENNER. It is not Lincoln's?

Mr. GLOVER. I think it was Washington's Birthday, but I don't remember dates, so I had no actual recollection of the specific date.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that is Washington's Birthday. [Checking calendar.]

Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week.

Mr. JENNER. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday.

Mr. GLOVER. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this.

Mr. JENNER. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963?

Mr. GLOVER. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time.

Mr. JENNER. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. There might have been some additional occasions when you saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. GLOVER. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people--I was included--to their house.

Mr. JENNER. About when was this?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a week before that.

Mr. JENNER. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner, when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was present. I am sure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt.

Mr. JENNER. He was then living with you?

Mr. GLOVER. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I have just a poor impression as to whether----

Mr. JENNER. What about Pierce?

Mr. GLOVER. Pierce was not there, I know that.

Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen?

Mr. GLOVER. He was not there.

Mr. JENNER. Do you know Fredricksen?

Mr. GLOVER. You are talking about the first meeting? I know Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there.

Mr. JENNER. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their names?

Mr. GLOVER. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that well.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a large party?

Mr. GLOVER. There were quite a number of people for the small apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people.

Mr. JENNER. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more people in addition to these you have named?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there.

Mr. JENNER. Richmond?

Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there.

Mr. JENNER. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party?

Mr. GLOVER. Sort of a dinner.

Mr. JENNER. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did anything impress you?

Mr. GLOVER. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were dressed up.

Mr. JENNER. Even though this was in February 1963?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more. Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they were different people than a lot of other people.

Mr. JENNER. You did?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That would be true of each of them?

Mr. GLOVER. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little girl with a baby over on the bed sofa.

Mr. JENNER. She brought the child with her?

Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again, I am not a hundred percent sure.

Mr. JENNER. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with her?

Mr. GLOVER. I believe she always had her child with her.

Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had the child with her?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion?

Mr. GLOVER. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very little.

Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?

Mr. GLOVER. No, I don't remember whether there was any conversation in Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked English.

Mr. JENNER. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language?

Mr. GLOVER. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory, a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take, but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who continued.

Mr. JENNER. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and Pierce?

Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the--I am quite sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was teaching on the side.

Mr. JENNER. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not?

Mr. GLOVER. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think, was related to a woman who--I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do not remember.

Mr. JENNER. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis?

Mr. GLOVER. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite sure--I can't remember whether it was Voshinin--it is not the Voshinin that teaches at SMU.

Mr. JENNER. It is a different one?

Mr. GLOVER. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU.

Mr. JENNER. Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it.

Mr. GLOVER. Well, the story from the beginning that the De Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me.

In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily possible for a person to do this, that this made sense.

In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written to me quite recently.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.

Mr. GLOVER. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been checked by the FBI----

Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?

Mr. GLOVER. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter, but words to the effect that they passed on him, or he was harmless, or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from their point of view.

Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald was all right?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not in my words.

Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact way he put it. It is in the letter.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect, that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect.

Mr. JENNER. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently you made a mistake. Do you recall that?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In this connection, what do you mean by that?

Mr. GLOVER. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of assuming that a man in his situation--of assuming that, because this man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do that.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22, 1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them?

Mr. GLOVER. I did not.

Mr. JENNER. Did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls or had any contact with them?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion that you met him?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't really talk to him very much.

Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education, or lack of it?

Mr. GLOVER. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life.

Mr. JENNER. Very much in his life in the way of material things?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. Or very much in the way of an education?

Mr. GLOVER. Material, educational, and spiritual.

Mr. JENNER. Spiritual or education or material?

Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from that total rather than any detailed thing he said.

Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what your impression of Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I am trying to fix a cutoff period.

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when he came back, so he was very maladjusted.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the impression that he was generally a maladjusted person?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in.

Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you moved?

Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He obviously didn't get along with his wife. He was very----

Mr. JENNER. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in her presence?

Mr. GLOVER. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This includes his relationship to other people, like his wife.

Mr. JENNER. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived in regard to that. They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say community, I mean a circle of people.

Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. And such people who cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife.

This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the Oswalds being antagonistic to each other.

Mr. JENNER. Now this first occasion then was an evening at the De Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and met them?

Mr. GLOVER. No.

Mr. JENNER. You knew in advance?

Mr. GLOVER. I believe they said when they called that these people were going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. JENNER. Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening?

Mr. GLOVER. I'm not sure.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Or at least a language that was not English?

Mr. GLOVER. I really couldn't be sure on that point.

Mr. JENNER. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much.

Mr. JENNER. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'.

Mr. JENNER. Was that at your home?

Mr. GLOVER. That was at my home.

Mr. JENNER. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing, and who was there.

Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow, like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of that. Who made the statement to you?

Mr. GLOVER. One of the De Mohrenschildts.

Mr. JENNER. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it several times?

Mr. GLOVER. I believe so; yes.

Mr. JENNER. In talking to you about the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. I would say so.

Mr. JENNER. They did say collectively--I mean--they did say affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the English language?

Mr. GLOVER. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her.

Mr. JENNER. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now.

Mr. GLOVER. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an acquaintance of mine----

Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine?

Mr. GLOVER. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56, I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs around the town.

Mr. JENNER. Had you known him prior to this time?

Mr. GLOVER. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church. Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir.

Mr. JENNER. Was this kind of a madrigal group?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things.

Mr. JENNER. Go ahead about your party.

Mr. GLOVER. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party, at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she was trying to brush up on the Russian, on--or maybe I am just thinking she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really know--I think at that time I was aware of the fact she had majored in Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her, and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came.

Mr. JENNER. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent that you knew about them at that time?

Mr. GLOVER. I am sure I did.

Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or knowledge of the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.

Mr. JENNER. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about the Oswalds?

Mr. GLOVER. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.

Mr. JENNER. Did she speak Russian?

Mr. GLOVER. No; she did not.

Mr. JENNER. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty MacDonald?

Mr. GLOVER. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us, that were living together. I am sure he was there.

Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were separated?

Mr. GLOVER. I was.

Mr. JENNER. As of that time?

Mr. GLOVER. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her because of the Russian.

Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he said he would come and he came.

Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?

Mr. GLOVER. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.

I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.

Mr. JENNER. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as to who attended your party?

Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I don't call it a party.

Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop in?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were going somewhere.

Mr. JENNER. Did the discussion take place--were there any discussions during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his political views?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were discussions.

Mr. JENNER. Tell us about them.

Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall impression--he was apparently a Marxist.

Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else present said he was a Marxist----

Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any, between Marxism and Communism?

Mr. GLOVER. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.

Mr. JENNER. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure up to those theories?

Mr. GLOVER. Apparently so.

Mr. JENNER. His so-called ideals?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. In any event, he had--what he had come back to here in America didn't measure up to what he----

Mr. GLOVER. Apparently. He said so.

Mr. JENNER. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on this occasion?

Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American system measured up to his ideals.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in Russia?

Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there was considerable.