Chapter XXVI: Part 26

Mr. PIZZO. I overheard that. I said, "What do you mean?" They said, "Well--" he pulled out a card, his own business card like this [indicating].

Mr. JENNER. Your salesman did?

Mr. PIZZO. Albert Bogard--this salesman made the remark that Al Bogard had pulled out a business card and written behind the business card--a lot of salesmen will do that--they will write down names of prospects on the card and if they don't have a piece of paper, they will just pull out one of their cards and write the names down, and he said, "Well, there goes my prospect," when he heard the name Lee Harvey Oswald, so he dumped it in the wastebasket.

Now, I didn't know about this until a few minutes later and I didn't make much of it at that time. That was it--at that time. I didn't know that that was a custom he had--a week or two before it just--nothing never entered my mind, we were all pretty saddened by the thing, and that was it for that day. Let's see, I believe, was that a Friday or Saturday?

Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday.

Mr. PIZZO. It was on a Friday--I want to tell it to you as correct as I can, that's why I'm wondering.

One of the boys said the next day that he had lost his customer and the guy that they have got is the man that Bogard has as a prospect, so I says, "Let's look--where is the writeup?" The first thing that I had in my mind was--get the writeup, so everyone was looking for the writeup. By now Bogard wasn't there, I think it was after lunch or breakfast, so we went through the drawers, and we went through the baskets and I called the two porters we have in the garage--called them in there and I said, "Who dumped the baskets out last night," and one fellow said, "I did." I said, "Where?" We have a trash barrel--not a barrel, but it's a huge incinerator and the trash men come by and pick it up, and so we went back there and I jumped inside this thing--that's how big it is and started throwing out the papers, looking for some kind of a writeup, and never could find anything. I just wanted the writeup to see if he did have a writeup, but by that time Bogard came back and I asked him, I said, "Al, have you got a writeup on that man, the man that they have got locked up?" He said, "Yes," and I said, "Where is it?" He said, "Well, it's not a writeup--I've got it on a card and I just took it and threw it down in the basket."

Mr. JENNER. The day before?

Mr. PIZZO. The day before. I said, "Well, where is it now?" He said, "I don't know."

Mr. JENNER. Did you look through the refuse container to try to find that card?

Mr. PIZZO. We looked for the card to--we went right back again and did the same thing, and he helped look for it and we had the colored boy there helping us looking for it and then when some FBI men came there they went in there and looked for it.

Mr. JENNER. We became very interested in that.

Mr. PIZZO. Me too. So, I kind of said, "Are you kidding us or what? You either have his name or you don't." He said, "Well, Frank, don't you remember?" I said, "I don't remember." He said, "I brought him to your office and you said he needed $200 or $300 down," and I said, "Yes, I guess I remember." He said, "Well, you should remember because when I took that man for a ride he drove like a wild man, and besides we had Gene Wilson's car and Gene got mad because we used up all his gas." He said, "He drove so fast, he scared the daylights out of me. Don't you remember me coming back and saying how mad I was?"

I said, "I just don't remember that particular moment." That's how he was trying to get me to remember that particular time when he took him for a ride. I said, "I just really don't remember that night--that much of it."

Now, I'll tell you how I think I recognized the man--this was after they had him on television and they showed him on television which was Monday or Tuesday or something like that--it was a few days after.

Mr. JENNER. You mean a rerun?

Mr. PIZZO. No; of the Oswalds--when they showed him on television--the first pictures of him on television, I saw that.

Mr. JENNER. And do you recall what day that was?

Mr. PIZZO. It was past a weekend. It was not Saturday--it might have been Sunday and probably it was Monday, but it wasn't Friday or Saturday, and I'm not sure it was Sunday, but I think it was on a Monday, and of course--the seed planted--I got to thinking about it and I looked at him and he looked familiar to me, and at that time I could have sworn it was him, because I remember a man in a T-shirt. I don't mean the open T-shirt but a full T-shirt.

Mr. JENNER. Like the kind you wore in the Marines?

Mr. PIZZO. Well, it wasn't green, but that type--the full T-shirt with a sleeve.

Mr. JENNER. About a half sleeve?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his face. And he just looked the type. He just looked like the type of guy that I was talking to that day, and when I came back to work the next day, of course we were all in there talking about it, and we talked about different incidences that reminded me of him. I only had a few seconds look at the man. He never said a word. I never heard him talk.

Mr. JENNER. The customer never said a word?

Mr. PIZZO. The customer never said a word--whether it would be him or not--but to me, it looked like it was, only from the pictures.

Mr. JENNER. I will exhibit to you Commission Exhibits 451 and 453 through 456 and ask you to examine them.

Does the man depicted there bear a resemblance to what you might possibly recall as the prospective customer you now have in mind?

Mr. PIZZO. [Examining photographs referred to.] It wouldn't be fair to say this one, because I think this was in the television or the newspaper with a fat lip--I remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo has refused Commission Exhibit 455.

Mr. PIZZO. Possibly these two.

Mr. JENNER. It might possibly be Commission Exhibit 453 or 451?

Mr. PIZZO. And I will refuse these two.

Mr. JENNER. The witness also refused Commission Exhibits Nos. 454 and 456.

Mr. PIZZO. I'm not too positive on these, either.

Mr. JENNER. And he is uncertain even as to Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451.

(An instrument is marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Showing you that exhibit, do you see any person depicted on that exhibit that resembles or is the prospective customer that was brought to your office door by Mr. Bogard on the day you have testified about?

Mr. PIZZO. One of these two men seems like it. This one--it seems like it because his nose is too big--one of these two here.

Mr. JENNER. Using this green marker, will you put an "X" on the two men?

Mr. PIZZO. I am not positive.

Mr. JENNER. Of course you are not positive.

Mr. PIZZO. Do you want me to put it right here?

Mr. JENNER. Let's pick out the two that most closely resemble the man of which you speak.

Mr. PIZZO. [Witness at this point marked instrument referred to.]

Mr. JENNER. Now, which of those two that you marked with the little green mark most closely resembles the man you saw?

Mr. PIZZO. Right here--but he seems older here--he was a little short guy, the way I figure.

Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" above him. The witness has put a cross--a horizontal cross line, through the other line as indicating the man who appears most like the person he saw. Your feeling is that the man you have indicated with an "X" seems somewhat taller than the man you recall as having seen at the door of your office prior to November 22, 1963. Is that correct, sir?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--about 5 feet 8 inches, something like that, what I recall--or maybe 5 feet 8-1/2 inches. Bogard is pretty tall and it seemed like the fellow was a lot shorter than he was.

Mr. JENNER. And that's what led you to put the marker over the head of the man on the extreme right shown in that picture, Pizzo Exhibit 453-A?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes--that's right--it's a downhill photo.

Mr. JENNER. I have one that's taken more at a level. We will mark it Pizzo Exhibit 453-B.

(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting that photograph, does there appear on it anybody who closely resembles the person you recall as having been at the door of your office on the occasion you have described, and if there is, put a mark on it.

Mr. PIZZO. Gosh, the man I saw--I want you to know--didn't have that much hair, nor did he have as much hair as these boys in this picture.

Mr. JENNER. The man you saw did not have as much hair as is shown on Pizzo Commission Exhibit 453-A, which you have marked with a cross?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right, nor as this picture right here--right there.

Mr. JENNER. Or the man on Pizzo Exhibit 453-B--appears to have more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And the men depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451 also, in each instance, has more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What about the man over whose head you placed a cross on Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, that is, in respect to the amount of hair?

Mr. PIZZO. This is more or less the hairline.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the witness is pointing to the man over where there is a single vertical stripe, over his head--green, and has dark glasses on. It is his hairline to which you have now adverted?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the other man has the cross over his head--you wanted to say something about that?

Mr. PIZZO. You said it exactly--that resembles--the face resembles him more than the hairline--it's sort of a "=V=" hairline.

Mr. JENNER. So, your problem has been that the hairline and the man with the single stripe above his head more resembles him than the man you saw at the door of your office, but the physiognomy or the facial features of the man over whose head you have placed the cross more resembles the man you saw?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes. I had just wondered if the pictures that I have seen of Oswald might have----

Mr. JENNER. Might have colored your judgment now?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. It's always possible, you know.

Mr. PIZZO. But that hairline is a thing--that's the thing that hit me first when I saw his picture on television.

Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald's picture on television?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and in the paper. It was the hairline and the physical features of it--a clean face with the high forehead and the "=V=" shaped hairline, and it's easy to remember that because of the T-shirt, the bare look he had because of the tight T-shirt.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis has come in and he is representing the attorney general's office of the State of Texas. This is Mr. Robert Davis. They are conducting a court of inquiry on this subject.

Mr. PIZZO. I see, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, the witness has just emphasized the thing he recalls most about the appearance or physiognomy of the man he saw at the door of his office a week or 10 days prior to November 22 when one of the employees he was supervising, Mr. Bogard, brought a prospective customer who seemed to be interested in a Comet Caliente, Mr. Pizzo was then the general sales manager of McAllister Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. PIZZO. I was assistant sales manager.

Mr. JENNER. You are now the sales manager?

Mr. PIZZO. I--of Hamilton Chrysler.

Mr. JENNER. I have shown him some photographs. He was impressed, he said, that the man he now recalls having seen on the occasion--he was impressed particularly with his hairline.

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. And that the hairline of the man indicated on Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, over whose head he has put the green vertical stripe, has the hairline, but the man over whose head he has placed the cross has more of the facial likeness.

The person or persons depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451, he says have a resemblance, but it is in his opinion not the man, and in any event the man on those two exhibits has more hair and does not have the particular hairline that impressed you on this occasion?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Am I fairly stating your testimony?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to summarize for Mr. Davis.

Mr. PIZZO. Thank you.

Mr. JENNER. I now show you a document we will mark as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C.

(The instrument referred to was marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C, for identification.)

Mr. JENNER. This is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that I'm about to show you and before I show it to you, may I say that the important thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment, and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if it is--tell us, one way or the other.

Mr. PIZZO. All right. That I will do. [Examining instrument referred to.]

Mr. JENNER. The greatest service you can give to us and to the country and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can.

Mr. PIZZO. He certainly don't have the hairline I was describing--it isn't the hairline I was describing.

Mr. JENNER. This was taken the afternoon of November 22 in the Dallas City Police showup.

(Discussion off the record.)

(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Counsel Davis and the witness, Mr. Pizzo, off the record.)

Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. You recall him as being more in the neighborhood of what--5 feet 8 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, more or less, or more or less?

Mr. PIZZO. Between 5 feet 7 inches and 5 foot 8-1/2 inches with sort of a round forehead and that =V= shape is the thing that I remember the most.

Mr. JENNER. A widow's peak?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but very weak.

Mr. JENNER. Very weak?

Mr. PIZZO. Very weak--not the bushy type that I see in the picture. Well, if I'm not sure--then--I have to say that he is not the one--if you want the absolute statement.

Mr. JENNER. I just want your best judgment--I don't want you to say he isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. It is better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. Now, you don't find the hairline?

Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't. From that picture I don't.

Mr. JENNER. Yes; from any of the three pictures, except the one with the man with the stripe over his head?

Mr. PIZZO. That's right--he has the sort of a hairline that I recollect.

Mr. JENNER. That's the man with the one stripe over his head?

Mr. PIZZO. I'll have to take a look again--this is the face--it resembles.

Mr. JENNER. The witness is now pointing to the man that has the cross over it.

Mr. PIZZO. This is the hairline that I remember.

Mr. JENNER. That is the man on the extreme right with the dark glasses, having a single vertical stripe above his head?

Mr. PIZZO. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And that picture of Mr. Oswald that I showed the witness, Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, in that picture, he does not have the hairline; is that correct?

Mr. PIZZO. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. What about his facial expression--features?

Mr. PIZZO. There's resemblance there. May I say something?

Mr. JENNER. Surely.

Mr. PIZZO. All the time that I have been thinking about it--because the FBI did tell me that they would call me sometime later and would I appear, and I said--yes, I would. I thought about it and the thing that stuck in my mind was always that hairline--the kind of balding right here--the smooth line.

Mr. JENNER. Above each temple?

Mr. PIZZO. And that face resembles. Now, I'll tell you, if he has--I've never seen the man in person, but if he has a small mouth it would fit about the description that I would give. I couldn't say absolutely sure that this was the man that was standing in front of my door.

Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now referring to Pizzo Exhibit 453-C. I offer Pizzo Exhibits 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C in evidence.

Mr. PIZZO. May I say something else?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.

Mr. PIZZO. I have called Al Bogard into the office after the first interview by the FBI, and I have asked him--I says, "Now, it is easy for me to start imagining things because of the emotional situation right now, Al. I want you to tell me the truth. Am I right when I say I do remember that situation?" He says, "Yes," and then he went into some more detail--"of course, don't you remember?" I didn't only ask him once, I asked him again a week later, and he said the same thing and that might have had some influence on it. Now, whether that's the man he brought to my door--right now looking at that picture I couldn't swear to it--I wouldn't want to do that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a fair type of an appraisal that we want. We want your best judgment. You don't recall the incident that Bogard related to you later that sought to stimulate your recollection about somebody who drove this automobile wildly--you don't recall that having been said to you on the afternoon?

Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't--no; I don't. I asked him about it and he told me. I'm the one that was after him to tell me--to help me remember. You see, I'm the one that kept asking him about, "Would you help me remember the situation." The more he talked about it, the more I remember that particular situation, but only to the point of "He needs $200 or $300," and he didn't have it at the time but he will have it in a couple of weeks. That's the things that I do remember at the door.

Mr. JENNER. And you do remember this man had a white T-shirt on--the half-sleeve type?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes. Sleeve type.

Mr. JENNER. With which you are familiar and wore yourself in the Marines except yours was colored green?

Mr. PIZZO. It was green--that's right.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, he has already related to us the effort he made when this incident came to his attention late in the day on the 22d of November of seeking to find Bogard's card on which he is alleged to have written Oswald's name on the reverse side and was to attempt to obtain a writeup sheet, which is what the salesmen normally write up with respect to a prospect, even to the extent of his climbing into the large refuse container in which all paper and waste paper baskets are thrown the following day, and he was not able to find either of those, though they made two examinations and emptied out the large container twice--you did it yourself?

Mr. PIZZO. I did it myself and once with the FBI. I believe it was the man from Louisiana--one of the FBI men.

Mr. JENNER. You were interviewed by Carter Hayden and Griffin on January 8, was it either one of those? On January 8, 1964?

Mr. PIZZO. I was interviewed by two pairs of FBI men--it was immediately after the assassination, which was probably Monday or Tuesday.

Mr. JENNER. The first time?

Mr. PIZZO. The first time; but it wasn't January 8.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the last one--the last interview--January 8?

Mr. PIZZO. This might have been the last one, although I remember two other men came in from Chicago--one was from Chicago--one--I believe there were three, no, I'm sorry, it was the same two twice and then another team.

Mr. JENNER. Could I ask you this--knowing Mr. Bogard as you do, is he a man who on occasion departed from his usual practice of making out a prospect sheet?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. He sometimes departed from that practice?

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; he would write them on just about anything--especially business cards and put them in his desk.

Mr. JENNER. Even though, as you recall, he had this man at the customer's booth, where there would be a supply of these writeup sheets, I assume?

Mr. PIZZO. He would ordinarily write the man up after the demonstration ride.

Mr. JENNER. He would not?

Mr. PIZZO. He would--he would ordinarily bring the man in and write him up after a demonstration ride if you can sell him a car. We never did find a writeup sheet--he said he never had one and he said he just wrote the prospect's name on the back of a card and I asked him, "How come, you usually write the thing on an order pad?" And we tried to work from there, and he said, "I just didn't."

Mr. JENNER. I have attempted to locate Mr. Bogard, just by calling around this morning, but I haven't been able to run him down yet. If you get any lead on where I might reach him, I would appreciate your telling me. I don't mean to suggest that he is trying to escape or anything, but quite the contrary. I just haven't been able to reach him.

Mr. PIZZO. He's working around here somewhere. I believe, according to his application when he gave it to me, he was a sales manager in Louisiana and he owned a liquor store.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he was the owner of the Bent Elbow, wherever that is, here.

Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his name isn't used--one of the salesmen sold him the place, the salesman that's still working there sold him the place. I guess he wanted out from under it and just found Bogard to do so, and when Bogard was bound to own a beer place, my boss immediately fired him. He won't have it. You cannot have outside interests with a dealer development company because factory and dealer development won't stand for it. You have to work primarily for the dealership, and he was fired for that and many other reasons, little reasons that, believe me, have no concern with this.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions for Mr. Pizzo?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, we appreciate very much your coming in and I know it was of considerable inconvenience at the month end and you have a lot of salesmen who want their money or pay.

Mr. PIZZO. I told my boss today--he says, "Do you have to go?" I said, "I have to go, but really, if I wasn't so patriotic, they would have to come after me, I told him."

Mr. JENNER. We appreciate it very much. You have a right, Mr. Pizzo, to read over your deposition if you wish and to sign it--this deposition I have taken of you, and if you care to exercise that right and make any corrections you wish, Miss Oliver will have this probably near the end of the week and you can call in and ask Mr. Sanders, the U.S. attorney, or for one of us if we are around--they will refer you to us anyhow, or you have a right to waive that, as you see fit. It is a privilege you may exercise if you wish to.

Mr. PIZZO. You mean what I have said here today?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. PIZZO. I believe everything I have said today--I will be glad to sign it.

Mr. JENNER. You don't have to--it is entirely up to you, if you see fit.

Mr. PIZZO. When would I get this deposition?

Mr. JENNER. Well, it will be ready for you to read--Miss Oliver will have it toward the end of the week.

Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir.

Mr. JENNER. If you will call in, she can tell you if it is ready and advise you if it isn't ready and then when it will be ready.

Mr. PIZZO. Well, I wish you gentlemen a lot of luck.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT GUY BOGARD

The testimony of Albert Guy Bogard was taken at 11:05 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. BALL. Will you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BOGARD. I do.

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. BOGARD. Albert Guy Bogard.

Mr. BALL. And your address?

Mr. BOGARD. 304 Brighton Street.

Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?

Mr. BOGARD. Sales manager for L & L Vending Co.

Mr. BALL. What do you sell?

Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines.

Mr. BALL. Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?

Mr. BOGARD. Vending machines. Cigarette machines.

Mr. BALL. Oh, vending. Oh, I see. I couldn't understand your Texas dialect. That is the--I understand now. Vending.

Mr. BOGARD. I have sinus trouble.

Mr. BALL. Oh, you have? Let me see. Where were you born and raised?

Mr. BOGARD. Born in Cowshatta, La.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go to school?

Mr. BOGARD. Hall Summit, La.

Mr. BALL. How far through school, sir?

Mr. BOGARD. Finished. Eleventh grade.

Mr. BALL. Eleventh grade? And what occupation did you pursue after that?

Mr. BOGARD. U.S. Navy.

Mr. BALL. How long?

Mr. BOGARD. Four years and two months and three days, I think, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do? What did you do after that?

Mr. BOGARD. I started selling automobiles.

Mr. BALL. Did you sell automobiles from then on until----

Mr. BOGARD. Then on until just recently.

Mr. BALL. I see. When did you take this job you are on now?

Mr. BOGARD. January.

Mr. BALL. Of 1964?

Mr. BOGARD. 1964; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Who did you work for last fall, 1963?

Mr. BOGARD. Downtown Lincoln Mercury, 118 East Commerce, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. Shortly after the death of President Kennedy you notified the FBI, didn't you?

Mr. BOGARD. I did not notify the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Did you notify someone that you had information?

Mr. BOGARD. Was the other salesman notified the FBI.

Mr. BALL. Who was he?

Mr. BOGARD. I forget the name.

Mr. BALL. But he notified the FBI that you had some information?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And did some special agent from the Federal Bureau of Investigation come and call on you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; several times.

Mr. BALL. And took a statement from you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I took a lie detector test.

Mr. BALL. You told him about an incident which occurred sometime before?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; week before.

Mr. BALL. Just 1 week before?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; just one--one week before--two weeks before.

Mr. BALL. About what date? Do you remember?

Mr. BOGARD. Ninth day of November, I think it was, to be exact.

Mr. BALL. 1963?

Mr. BOGARD. 1963.

Mr. BALL. What day of the week was that?

Mr. BOGARD. That was on a Saturday.

Mr. BALL. When was it? In the morning, or afternoon?

Mr. BOGARD. Afternoon.

Mr. BALL. About what time?

Mr. BOGARD. I think it was around 1:30 or 2 o'clock, as I was leaving town shortly after I gave the demonstration in the automobile and I was in a hurry.

Mr. BALL. Tell me just what happened there? Tell me the incident that you remember and that you related to the Federal----

Mr. BOGARD. A gentleman walked in the door and walked up and introduced himself to me, and tells me he wants to look at a car. I show him a car on the showroom floor, and take him for a ride out Stemmons Expressway and back, and he was driving at 60 to 70 miles an hour and came back to the showroom. And I made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or 3 weeks, that he had some money coming in. And when he finally started to leave I got his name and wrote it on the back of one of my business cards, and never heard from the man any more. And the day that the President was shot, when I heard that--they had the radio on in the showroom, and when I heard the name, that he had shot a policeman over in Oak Cliff, I pulled out some business cards that I had wrote his name on the back on, and said, "He won't be a prospect any more because he is going to jail," and ripped the card up.

Mr. BALL. Threw it away?

Mr. BOGARD. Threw it away.

Mr. BALL. And when the FBI agent came to see you, the card had already been thrown away?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I tore it up that very same day.

Mr. BALL. This was Friday the 22d?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; the day I heard that Kennedy had been killed. I hadn't heard that the President had been killed; just heard a policeman had been shot and that's when I tore up the card and said, "He won't want to buy a car."

Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him?

Mr. BOGARD. I can tell you the truth, I have already forgotten what he actually looked like. I identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You don't have a memory of it?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he tall, or short?

Mr. BOGARD. About medium build, I'd say.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what name he gave you?

Mr. BOGARD. Gave me Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you that when he first introduced----

Mr. BOGARD. He give me that when he started to leave.

Mr. BALL. Oh, gave you that when he started to leave?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And didn't give you any name when he first introduced himself?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you what kind of a car he wanted?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; wanted a Caliente, two-door hardtop.

Mr. BALL. What kind of make is that?

Mr. BOGARD. Mercury Comet.

Mr. BALL. And did you show him one?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color did you show him?

Mr. BOGARD. Red.

Mr. BALL. You took a ride with him?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he drive, or did you drive it?

Mr. BOGARD. He drove it.

Mr. BALL. Drive it, right out of the shop, or did you drive it first and then----

Mr. BOGARD. No; he drove it right offhand. He got in driving it.

Mr. BALL. Did he appear to know how to drive the car?

Mr. BOGARD. Well, he had drove before, I'm sure, because he took off.

Mr. BALL. Did he----

Mr. BOGARD. He might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, he knew how to drive.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean, "He might have drove it a little reckless"?

Mr. BOGARD. Well, going 60 and 70 miles an hour right up a Freeway and took curves kind of fast.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you got back to the showroom you say you did some figuring. What kind of figuring?

Mr. BOGARD. Just took out some papers and going to write up how much the car would cost and, just like with anybody else, just trying to close the deal, and he said he would have the money in 2 or 3 weeks and would come in and----

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him you needed a down payment?

Mr. BOGARD. He said he would have it.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell him how much?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How much?

Mr. BOGARD. Three hundred dollars, I think. And he said he didn't have the money then and would just pay cash for it at a later date.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he lived?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he give you his--didn't give you his address or telephone number?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir; or occupation.

Mr. BALL. And he gave you his name, though?

Mr. BOGARD. Lee Oswald.

Mr. BALL. At what time?

Mr. BOGARD. That is when he was fixing to leave.

Mr. BALL. Lee Oswald?

Mr. BOGARD. Uh-huh.

Mr. BALL. You say you wrote it on one of your own cards?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; back of one of my business cards.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell anybody about it at that time?

Mr. BOGARD. Now, at that time I don't know whether--Now, Mr. Pizzo, I think I introduced him to him. I introduced him to Mr. Pizzo. He asked what was wrong with him and I said he hasn't got the money right now. Will be back in a couple or 3 weeks.

Mr. BALL. You introduced him to Pizzo?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you said this in front of Pizzo that he didn't have the money?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; he was expecting some money--to have the money in 2 or 3 weeks.

Mr. BALL. When did you see the television that called your attention to this?

Mr. BOGARD. I heard it on the radio.

Mr. BALL. You heard it on the radio?

Mr. BOGARD. And then I tore the card up, and that very same night on the 10 o'clock news, I think it was, if I remember correctly, I saw him on TV.

Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures of Lee Oswald in the newspaper?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; Dallas Morning News, next morning.

Mr. BALL. Now, what was your impression when you saw the man on television?

Mr. BOGARD. All my impression was that he had been in and tried to buy a car, that he wasn't a prospect any more.

Mr. BALL. What about his picture in the paper? Did it appear to be--did you recognize him from the picture?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes; I recognized him as being the same fellow that had been in.

Mr. BALL. And did you tell anybody out there that you thought it was the same person?

Mr. BOGARD. They began asking me then, and I said, "Yes," and this Pizzo recognized him, too.

Mr. BALL. What did Pizzo say?

Mr. BOGARD. Said, "Yes; that is the same man." And Pizzo also has been questioned by the FBI.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?

Mr. BOGARD. P-i-z-z-o.

Mr. BALL. He was the sales manager?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is he still the sales manager out there?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where is he now?

Mr. BOGARD. I don't know. I think, though, that he is at Eagle Lincoln-Mercury. I wouldn't be for sure, because I haven't seen Pizzo since I left Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.

Mr. BALL. Now, when was it that you talked to the other salesman about this and told them that you thought the man had been in to see you?

Mr. BOGARD. We were all standing there listening to the radio and the name came on the radio, and I pulled this business card out with "Lee Oswald," wrote across it.

Mr. BALL. Who were some of the men standing by the radio when you pulled this business card out?

Mr. BOGARD. Oh, I think Oran Brown was there, Mr. Wilson was there, and this other little boy, he hadn't been there very long. I can't remember his name at this time right now.

Mr. BALL. Oran Brown and Wilson?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What are Wilson's initials, do you have them?

Mr. BOGARD. I can't remember Mr. Wilson's initials right now.

Mr. BALL. Wilson a salesman?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; been there for about 12 years.

Mr. BALL. Is Brown a salesman?

Mr. BOGARD. He works for Fina Oil Co. out here on Inwood Road now.

Mr. BALL. What is it?

Mr. BOGARD. [Spelling] O-r-a-n.

Mr. BALL. [Spelling] O-r-a-n--oil what?

Mr. BOGARD. My--no, he works for Fina Oil Co., American Petra Fina Oil Co. A service station.

Mr. BALL. Service station?

Mr. BOGARD. He manages this service station out there. New, big service station.

Mr. BALL. Well, Mr. Bogard, did you receive a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?

Mr. BOGARD. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were asked to appear by the Secret Service?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I probably should have stated to you the purpose of this inquiry. The Commission has been authorized to investigate the assassination of the President and any facts or circumstances that might determine who assassinated him. And our attention was called to your testimony by the Federal Bureau of Investigation report, and we asked you to come in and testify and you did so willingly, didn't you?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were willing?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Willing to come in and testify and be sworn?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And testify as to these facts?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I am a staff officer with the Commission.

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And I am authorized by the Commission to administer the oath to you and ask you these questions, and all questions you answered were under oath. You understand that?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir; I answered the same questions under a polygraph test.

Mr. BALL. Under a polygraph test from the FBI?

Mr. BOGARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can come down here and look it over and read it and sign it, or you may waive your signature--whatever you wish. Which do you prefer?

Mr. BOGARD. Which do you want? Put it that way.

Mr. BALL. I'm going to leave it up to you. That is really something for you to decide whether you want to come back down here or not.

Mr. BOGARD. I don't mind coming back down.

Mr. BALL. We'll notify you and you can come in and we will notify you when it is ready and you can come in and sign it.

Mr. BOGARD. Thank you.

Mr. BALL. Thank you for coming down.

Mr. BOGARD. Thank you, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. All right.

TESTIMONY OF FLOYD GUY DAVIS

The testimony of Floyd Guy Davis was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis, would you please rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. Mr. Davis, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized by the Commission to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you, Mr. Davis, last week and indicated--in point of fact, the letter was returned to Washington and it was on my desk when I left. It was addressed to the Sports Drome Rifle Range and could not be delivered at that address. With the letter that Mr. Rankin originally sent to you, he enclosed a copy of the Executive order and joint resolution to which I just referred as well as a copy of the Commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.

Since you didn't get copies of those documents nor the letter, I now hand you copies of those documents which you may keep for your own reference. It is my understanding that you were contacted by the Secret Service and requested to come here and give testimony. Technically, you are entitled to 3-days' notice. I don't expect you did get it, but you are now here and I assume you have no objection to going ahead with your testimony at this point, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. That's right, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to inquire concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at a rifle range which would be, I am informed, one which you operated at 8000 West Davis, Dallas, Tex.

Before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name?

Mr. DAVIS. Floyd Guy Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. DAVIS. 2824 Byway.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. DAVIS. Thirty-two.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. DAVIS. In Louisville, Ky.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mr. DAVIS. It was approximately 8 years ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you move here from Louisville?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have lived all your life in Louisville and Dallas, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding that during the period October and November of 1963, you were the operator of the Sports Dome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis?

Mr. DAVIS. That is D-r-o-m-e. It is Sports Drome.

Mr. LIEBELER. I was pronouncing it Dome.

Mr. DAVIS. I thought you were.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you still operating that rifle range?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, we are.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you commence operating it?

Mr. DAVIS. The exact date, I don't have, sir. It was about the first of October of last year.

Mr. LIEBELER. We are informed that the FBI has interviewed you and taken from you certain shell cases?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. For analysis in the FBI laboratory?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell us briefly the circumstances that led up to that, as far as you know.

Mr. DAVIS. Well, the only thing that I know that happened, there was some people that said that they had seen Oswald out at the range on three different occasions. I believe that it was on the 9th, the 10th, and the 17th of November. And they informed the FBI that he was out there. The two I am sure that contacted me was Mr. Malcolm Price or Howard Price and Garland Slack, and the FBI in turn came out and talked to us.

Mr. LIEBELER. Malcolm Price?

Mr. DAVIS. That is Malcolm Howard Price, is his full name.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know his name yourself?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he worked with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. He worked with you?

Mr. DAVIS. He does now. At that time he was helping us out there trying to get the range started, and he has a heart ailment where he don't hold a regular job, so he helps us out there a little bit on the range.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he had seen an individual who he thought was Oswald at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. He sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what date he thought he saw this man?

Mr. DAVIS. He said on the 9th and the 10th and the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Three different occasions?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there at the range on those days?

Mr. DAVIS. I was there, but not at the time that he was talking about on the 9th and the 10th. Now on the 17th, I was there, and the two individuals that he brought up in their testimony, I remember them being there, but I don't remember the faces.

Mr. LIEBELER. How do you mean you remember them being there?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, Mr. Slack, there was this booth No. 9 on the rifle range----

Mr. LIEBELER. On what date?

Mr. DAVIS. On the 17th; and I was holding the turkey shoot at the same time. Mr. Slack come to me and was complaining about someone shooting his target.

So there was two young fellows, I can remember the approximate height of them but I don't remember what their faces looked like, that were in booth No. 8. I do remember the person that was in booth No. 7, though, because I don't know whether you have talked to Mr. Charlie Brown in the last 2 weeks or not on this----

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Brown, the FBI agent, yes.

Mr. DAVIS. There was a fellow with a black beard in that booth No. 7, at the same time. I remember him because he was outstanding, you know, and I went to these fellows in booth No. 8, and was giving them heck about shooting at the wrong target. And this other fellow, I remember him because he wouldn't say anything to me. I tried to speak to him two or three different occasions, because he had a lot of guns, and I thought he would be a good customer.

Mr. LIEBELER. The fellow with the beard?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was how tall, approximately?

Mr. DAVIS. He was over 6 feet and he weighed a good 250 pounds. A big bruiser.

Mr. LIEBELER. I think we can assume that was not Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DAVIS. They were trying to find him. Charlie Brown was trying to find this person, and 2 weeks ago on a Sunday morning I saw him in an automobile out on Davis, I believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. The big fellow with the beard?

Mr. DAVIS. The big fellow there with the beard. And I got the license number on the car and the type of car it was and called it into the office.

I haven't heard anything from Mr. Brown since then, whether he got the information, but I am sure he did when I turned it into the office.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now let's review this. Mr. Slack was in booth No. 9, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. This big fellow was in booth No. 7?

Mr. DAVIS. Right. And there was the two young fellows in booth No. 8. One of them was 5 foot 6 or 5 foot 7, somewhere in that vicinity, and the other one was about 6 foot, and he was blackheaded.

I can remember that, but as far as remembering their faces, with that turkey shoot we had 225 people that day, I can't remember what they looked like.

Mr. LIEBELER. You say that these two fellows, one was approximately 6 feet tall or over, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was heavy-set or slender?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't particularly heavy-set, he was just a medium build.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was not of a light build, however?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. He was just about my size. I would say 160 to 170 pounds.

Mr. LIEBELER. How tall are you?

Mr. DAVIS. Six-one.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you weigh?

Mr. DAVIS. I weigh about 160, but I was a little bit heavier about that time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you determine which of the fellows was shooting at Mr. Slack's target?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you speak to both of them or all three of them?

Mr. DAVIS. Not as an individual. I spoke to the group to be sure they were firing at the right target and to watch where they were facing because they were shooting at the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. This Mr. Slack, now then, believes that one of the two of these fellows could have been Lee Harvey Oswald, is that right?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Slack has told you that?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Mr. Price was also there the same day?

Mr. DAVIS. He said he was.

Mr. LIEBELER. He also indicated that he thinks one of those two gentlemen was Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You yourself had an opportunity to observe both of these gentlemen, did you not?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; I sure did.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you some pictures which have been previously marked as Commission Exhibits Nos. 451, 453, 454, 455 and 456, and ask you if you recognize from these pictures the pictures of the individuals who were firing from booth No. 8, at your range on Sunday, November 17, 1963?

Mr. DAVIS. He sure looks familiar, but I couldn't say for sure. It sure looks familiar. This would have been the taller of the two, and this is almost----

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed to Commission Exhibit 451, and you think that gentleman resembles the taller of the two men that were firing from booth No. 8?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he is about the same size. The face features, I seem to have seen them before, but as far as--it sure looks like him. I couldn't say definitely that it was him, but it sure looks a lot like him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you see any resemblance between any of the pictures which I have shown and the shorter of the two men?

Mr. DAVIS. The face on the other one, I couldn't say what it looked like. So many of these pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald have been shown to me, and they started showing me things about the time it all happened, and I would hate to say that it was him. But definitely this fellow, the taller of the two fellows was about his built. He looked like he is about my size. He may be a little bit shorter in those pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about the facial features of the gentleman on 451?

Mr. DAVIS. Like I say, the features of his face are familiar, they seem to be familiar to me, but as far as definitely saying that was the person out there I----

Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't do that?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; but it does look familiar, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you next a photograph that has previously been marked Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, which is a photograph of several individuals, one of whom has been marked by a green marker. I ask you if that picture bears any resemblance to either of the two men you saw firing from booth No. 8, at your rifle range on Sunday, November 17?

Mr. DAVIS. Like I said before I couldn't be too sure because I have saw so many pictures of this that look like Lee Harvey Oswald that they get to running together with them when I get to thinking about them, and I would hate to say that I was, because I have saw pictures of him in all different forms, in the newspapers, in--and also some that the police have brought out there, and the Grand Prairie police brought them, and some of the FBI, and I would hate to say because I was very much interested in the case at the time it did happen, because myself it was a blow to the business that I am in.

As far as someone with a high-powered rifle shooting the President like he did, I was afraid they were going to pass a bill which would stop that stuff, and it is like a hard blow to me.

Mr. LIEBELER. To your business at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your business actually fall off after the assassination?

Mr. DAVIS. It practically died on that thing. It just gradually--yesterday we had one person out there, compared to 80 and 90 when we first opened. Of course, they were in deer season. That had a lot to do with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever been shown this picture that I just showed you before?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. 453-B?