Chapter VI: Part 6

Mr. STEELE. Well, I couldn't tell you that. I presume he did, but that's only presumption on my part. I don't remember names too well; just faces, and that's about all, so then after he asked me if I would like to make some money, I asked him, "Doing what?" and he said, "Passing out these leaflets in front of the Trade Mart Building," and I said, "About how long will it take?" and he said, "About 15 or 20 minutes at the most." I figured $2 for 20 minutes, and I am going on vacation next week, that could come in handy, and so I said, "All right," that I would go over there and do it, and so in the meantime Charlene had come back. She had finished her test, and she had to go back to the school board building to see some guy that she saw before about the job, so I brought her over to that gentleman, and then I went back over to the Trade Mart Building, where he and another fellow came up, and he handed me these leaflets, so I just started passing them out.

Mr. JENNER. Did you look at them before you started passing them out?

Mr. STEELE. No; I didn't look at them. I have walked down Canal Street myself a lot of times, and somebody has handed me a leaflet like that, and I just take it, and most of the time I just throw it in the nearest trash can; I don't read them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a sign, or was anybody carrying a sign there?

Mr. STEELE. No; but these pictures that Mr. Rice showed me, the FBI agent, I saw myself on those, and there was a gentleman in the rear who was also passing out leaflets, and I never saw him at the time I was there, but he's in the pictures.

Mr. JENNER. What did he look like, this man who was there also passing out leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I shouldn't say this, I guess, but he was sort of Cuban looking, like that.

Mr. JENNER. Olive skinned, do you mean?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; olive skinned, but he was back in the rear, passing out leaflets, and I never did even see him.

Mr. JENNER. And this man, Oswald, who asked you to pass out the leaflets for 15 or 20 minutes, was he also passing out the leaflets at the same time?

Mr. STEELE. I never noticed.

Mr. JENNER. Did you notice whether he was there, or whether he remained there after he gave you these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Oh, he was there. In fact, he had leaflets in his hand.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was passing them out?

Mr. STEELE. I guess so, but, I mean, to say that he was just standing there passing them out, I didn't pay any attention to that. I was just trying to get mine passed out and get my $2 and leave. I didn't even look at him after a few minutes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you more or less walk up and down in front of the building passing out these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. More or less. I figured the sooner I got rid of them the sooner I could leave, so that's all I was interested in doing.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody talk to you about it, or say what the purpose of this was?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did anybody protest that you were passing out leaflets of which they disapproved?

Mr. STEELE. Nobody. As a matter of fact, I didn't have any trouble getting rid of them. The people just sort of grabbed them as they passed by. It was just something free, you know, and I guess there's always a feeling that when you get something free you might as well take it.

Mr. JENNER. What time of day did you go into the unemployment office with your girl friend?

Mr. STEELE. Before 12, possibly 11 or 11:30; I don't remember that.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember the conversation with your girl friend when you told her that you were going to pass out these leaflets in front of this building?

Mr. STEELE. No; she was just saying she had to go back to the school board building to see this guy.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any discussion with her as to whether she would accompany you?

Mr. STEELE. Accompany me where?

Mr. JENNER. Accompany you to where you were going to pass out these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Did you drive her somewhere before you went back to pass out these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. To the school board building.

Mr. JENNER. The Orleans parish school board?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you return there and pick her up?

Mr. STEELE. I returned there, but I didn't pick her up. I don't know what happened, but I missed her somehow.

Mr. JENNER. You say Lee Oswald told you it would take 15 or 20 minutes to pass out these leaflets. What time did you get back to pass them out after you had taken your girl friend to the school board building?

Mr. STEELE. I don't know what time it was, but I figure I was in front of the Trade Mart Building about 15 minutes--12 or 15 minutes; I think it was about 25 after 12, maybe 20 minutes after, when I got there. It only takes a few minutes to get from the school board building down to the Trade Mart. I had to be to work for 2 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. You had to go to work that afternoon, that this happened?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; I had to be at work at 2 o'clock that afternoon. Later on that night she called me and told me that my picture was on television.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see her before she came to see you about your picture being on television?

Mr. STEELE. No; I saw her later.

Mr. JENNER. You saw her later that night?

Mr. STEELE. I don't think any more that night; I think it was the next day.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with her about passing out these leaflets.

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. What did you say to her and what did she say to you?

Mr. STEELE. She told me that I was in trouble, that there was some kind of a deal on television about passing out these leaflets or something, and from what she had read before, it sounded like communism, or something. Now, I had taken a course in high school on that, so I knew a little bit about that, so I thought I had better tell my boss about it, which I did.

Mr. JENNER. You told your boss about it?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; after I had that talk with her, when she told me I was in trouble.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what time it was she called you and told you about this being on television?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I know it was after 6 o'clock.

Mr. JENNER. That same day, when this occurred?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; it was that same night.

Mr. JENNER. And then you told your boss about it?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. That same night?

Mr. STEELE. That same night.

Mr. JENNER. Who was your boss?

Mr. STEELE. Henry Muller.

Mr. JENNER. Henry Muller?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I think it was Alfred Muller.

Mr. JENNER. Alfred Muller?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, I think that's Henry's brother.

Mr. JENNER. What did your girl friend say when you had this discussion with her, to the effect that this literature might be communistic, or whatever it was she said? Was she alarmed?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, she was pretty excited, but we never really discussed it. I just told her I didn't know a thing about it, that I just made $2 by passing these leaflets out, but I didn't know what it was all about.

Mr. JENNER. But she did think you were in trouble?

Mr. STEELE. Well, from what she saw on television, she thought I was.

Mr. JENNER. What was your reaction?

Mr. STEELE. I got a little scared and worried, and so I called the FBI and told them about it.

Mr. JENNER. You called the FBI right away?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recall some pictures being taken during that time you were passing out this literature?

Mr. STEELE. At the time, when I noticed the cameras, that's when I looked down at the leaflets to see what I was passing out.

Mr. JENNER. That's when you really took an interest in these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Yes. That's when I looked at one of them and saw what it was.

Mr. JENNER. Did you go and call the TV station?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; I called three of them. One of them didn't know anything about it.

Mr. JENNER. Why did you call the TV stations?

Mr. STEELE. To get my picture off of the television.

Mr. JENNER. Had you told your father in the meantime?

Mr. STEELE. No; I called him, but they were out to dinner. They had gone to Camp Leroy Johnson, I believe.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any trouble during the time you were passing out these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody tried to interfere with your passing them out?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Nobody was arrested?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. The police didn't come?

Mr. STEELE. No. I think you are talking about a different occasion now. I didn't know anything about that at the time, not until I was in the Federal Building, and they said something about it.

Mr. JENNER. You say somebody else was helping pass out these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. Was it somebody that walked up with Oswald?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But when you arrived on the scene, he was not there, is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Do you mean Oswald?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; and this man that walked up with him.

Mr. STEELE. No; I waited for him.

Mr. JENNER. For Oswald?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; I waited for him maybe a minute, or a few seconds--I don't know how long it was, but it wasn't long.

Mr. JENNER. And then he came?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. And somebody was accompanying him?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you know that man?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he introduced to you?

Mr. STEELE. He was introduced to me, but I don't remember him.

Mr. JENNER. Did you eventually look at these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; after a few minutes. When I saw the cameras, I got suspicious then and looked at one of them.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have two supplies of these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances. About how many had you given out at the time you quit?

Mr. STEELE. I had given out one supply and had gone back, and he had handed me some more, and at that time I seen the cameras, and that's when I looked to see what I was passing out.

Mr. JENNER. Looked at these leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; at the leaflets.

Mr. JENNER. All right, and then what happened?

Mr. STEELE. Well, it didn't sound right to me. I don't remember exactly what it said, but it said something about keeping hands off of Cuba, or something like that, and it just didn't sound right, and I knew that we were on bad terms with Cuba.

Mr. JENNER. What did you do then?

Mr. STEELE. I told Oswald that I didn't want any more to do with it, and I wasn't going to pass out any more leaflets, and he said, "Well, all right," and he gave me the $2, and I left.

Mr. JENNER. He didn't pursue it any further?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. But he went ahead and gave you the $2; is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; and then I walked off.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any leaflets left when you left the scene?

Mr. STEELE. No. I got rid of the ones I had left.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember telling the FBI that you threw the remainder of the leaflets in a trash can there at the scene?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; I threw what I had left in the trash can. I mean, when I left there, I didn't have any with me.

Mr. JENNER. You threw the remaining leaflets away that you had?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir; I threw them in the trash can around there some place, but after leaving that spot, you know. I mean, the can wasn't right there where I was passing them out.

Mr. JENNER. Did you have any conversation with Oswald about whether these leaflets were or were not communistic in nature?

Mr. STEELE. I did ask him if they were communistic, and he said they were not. He said they were from an organization affiliated with Tulane University, or something to that effect, of somehow being connected with Tulane. I believe I had asked him something about the leaflets before, and he told me about them being connected with Tulane--some connection there. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I do remember him telling me about that, you know, the other time I asked him, and so then I told him I didn't want any more to do with it, and he gave me the $2.

Mr. JENNER. He did persist in your continuing to pass them out?

Mr. STEELE. No; he didn't.

Mr. JENNER. Did he deny they had any connection with communism, in so many words?

Mr. STEELE. He denied that; yes, sir. He didn't really say what it was for.

Mr. JENNER. He just said it was from an organization connected with Tulane University?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. But that didn't reassure you, did it?

Mr. STEELE. No: it didn't. It made me stop and wonder though if it was or wasn't, but then I didn't think any more about it.

Mr. JENNER. Anyhow, you didn't want any more to do with it once you saw the cameras, did you?

Mr. STEELE. No; I didn't.

Mr. JENNER. And you got your $2, which was the price agreed on, and you left, is that right?

Mr. STEELE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. This man that came along with Oswald, have you ever seen him since then?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen him before that time?

Mr. STEELE. No; I never did.

Mr. JENNER. Was there any conversation between Oswald and the man he brought along with him that you might have overheard?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of the connection between them, if any?

Mr. STEELE. The same as mine. He was getting them out of this unemployment place, just like he did me.

Mr. JENNER. When you first went into this unemployment place, did you notice Oswald in there at that time?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. When did you first notice him?

Mr. STEELE. When he came up to me and asked me if I wanted to make a couple of dollars.

Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that, when you first noticed him--when he approached you, and what he said. First, how was he dressed, if you remember?

Mr. STEELE. He had on a white shirt and tie and black pants, and he had a little briefcase with him, I think.

Mr. JENNER. Probably containing a supply of these leaflets, do you think?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. But he had a little briefcase that you saw, is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; he had a briefcase with him.

Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of the name Hidell--A. J. Hidell?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. You have never heard of him?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. What did the FBI say to you after you talked to them?

Mr. STEELE. That night?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. STEELE. They told me they couldn't do anything about keeping my picture off of television, and that the best thing for me to do would be to call the stations and tell them about it, and ask them to keep my picture off.

Mr. JENNER. All right now; have you told me everything you know about this incident?

Mr. STEELE. As far as I remember.

Mr. JENNER. And everything as far as your participation in this is concerned?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald ever contact you again to pass out any more leaflets?

Mr. STEELE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did anyone ever contact you on his behalf and ask you to pass out leaflets at all?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. I'm going to show you some pictures that are marked Pizzo Exhibits Nos. 453-A and 453-B, and Exhibit No. 1, Deposition, Carlos Bringuier, April 7, 1964. Disregarding the various arrows and marks, because they will serve only to confuse you, do you see the man known as Lee Harvey Oswald on any of those pictures?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; in all three.

Mr. JENNER. All three?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Point to the one on your left, which is 453-A, which is Oswald?

(The witness has pointed to the figure of a man over whose head there is a green cross.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, the second picture, which is 453-B, do you see him on that one?

(The witness points to a man over whose head there is a green vertical stripe.)

Mr. JENNER. And do you see him on the third picture, which is the one identified as Exhibit No. 1? Point to him.

(Let the record show that the witness has indicated by pointing the figure of the man identified as Lee Harvey Oswald.)

Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" on his body, if you will.

(Let the record show that the witness has put a red "X" mark on the body of the man known to be Lee Harvey Oswald, and that he is the same man shown in each picture, and so identified by the witness.)

Mr. JENNER. Now, taking a look at 453-A, you see there is an arrow over the head of a man to the left of the man over whose head you put the green cross?

Mr. STEELE. What's that?

Mr. JENNER. You see that arrow over the head of the man to the left of the man with the green cross over his head?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Do you recognize this man over the head of whom there is an arrow?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Was he there the day that you were passing out this literature?

Mr. STEELE. Not that I could see at the time, but from previous pictures that I have seen, he apparently was though.

Mr. JENNER. Previous pictures that you have seen from whom?

Mr. STEELE. The FBI and the Secret Service.

Mr. JENNER. Are you shown on any of these pictures now?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You are?

Mr. STEELE. Oh, am I shown?

Mr. JENNER. Yes.

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. Do you see yourself on any of these pictures?

Mr. STEELE. No, I don't; not on these.

Mr. JENNER. Do you see anybody else on those pictures that you now recognize as having been present on the first occasion, on the occasion when you were there, other than Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. STEELE. That I remember; no.

Mr. JENNER. No one else?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. There was no incident on the day that you passed out this literature?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. And the police didn't come?

Mr. STEELE. No.

Mr. JENNER. When was that, August 16?

Mr. STEELE. I can't give the date on that; I don't know.

Mr. JENNER. It was in August though, wasn't it?

Mr. STEELE. It was in August all right, but I don't remember the exact date.

Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that some people were taking pictures?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; I do.

Mr. JENNER. And you remember your girl friend calling you that evening and saying you were on television?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; she came over.

Mr. JENNER. She came over to your place?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir. I remember now; she came over.

Mr. JENNER. Where were you then?

Mr. STEELE. I was at work.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the FBI then?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And the FBI said what?

Mr. STEELE. I had asked them about getting my picture off of television, and they said they couldn't do anything about it, that there was nothing wrong with it--that it was news.

Mr. JENNER. They couldn't interfere with the news media?

Mr. STEELE. That's right.

Mr. JENNER. That's what they told you?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you call the television stations?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. What did you tell them?

Mr. STEELE. I asked them if they would take my picture off of the television screen. I told them who I was, and I told them about it, that I was the gentleman that had passed out the literature, and I told them that my father was with the sheriff's office, and it wouldn't be too good with him, and at the time didn't know what I was passing out, until I had seen the cameras, and then looked at them, and they said, "Well, all right then," and it never came on television anymore, until the President's death.

Mr. JENNER. Describe this man who came along with Oswald.

Mr. STEELE. Right now I haven't the slightest idea what he looked like. I think, as I recall, he was about Oswald's height.

Mr. JENNER. Oswald was 5 foot 9. You say he was the same height, or taller, or what?

Mr. STEELE. Well, he wasn't shorter. He was either the same height or slightly taller.

Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that when you were interviewed by special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 24th of November, 1963, that you told them that he was aged 19 or 20 years, that he was about 6 feet tall, slender built, dark hair, and olive complexion?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Was that the way you recall him?

Mr. STEELE. Yes; he was slender built and about my complexion.

Mr. JENNER. You have dark skin?

Mr. STEELE. Caucasian, dark.

Mr. JENNER. What would you say he weighed?

Mr. STEELE. About 170, 175, I guess.

Mr. JENNER. How tall are you?

Mr. STEELE. Six feet.

Mr. JENNER. Would this man have been about your height?

Mr. STEELE. I guess so, but it didn't seem like he was quite as tall as I am.

Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was more slender than you?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. How was he dressed?

Mr. STEELE. Sport shirt, as far as I can remember.

Mr. JENNER. White or colored, or what?

Mr. STEELE. I don't even remember the man right now, to tell you the truth. I just have a very vague recollection of what he looked like.

Mr. JENNER. But you are sure he was slender built?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the right, if you wish to exercise it, of reading over your deposition and signing it, or you may waive that right and let the court reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded direct to Washington. What do you prefer to do?

Mr. STEELE. Well, I will do what you consider best.

Mr. JENNER. Well, you are willing to waive the necessity of reading your deposition and signing it then?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Is there anything else that occurred that you haven't told me about, or that I haven't asked you about, that would be of assistance to the Commission?

Mr. STEELE. No; I can't think of anything else.

Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in voluntarily and testifying.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES HALL STEELE, SR.

The testimony of Charles Hall Steele, Sr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Charles Hall Steele, Sr., 1488 Madrid Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:

Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. Charles Hall Steele, Sr., is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Right.

Mr. JENNER. And you have seen the letter received by your son from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, have you not?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. You have read it?

Mr. STEELE. Yes.

Mr. JENNER. Did you also read the documents that were enclosed with that letter?

Mr. STEELE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Well, those documents, Mr. Steele, consist of Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; the Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by deposition, as in this case.

The Commission is directed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding or bearing upon the assassination of our late President Kennedy. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the various members of the legal staff of the Commission, and we are here today taking depositions of witnesses who may have in some way touched the lives of the Oswald family during their residence here in New Orleans.

You have told us that you have some concern about your boy in this matter, and you have also told me of your position in this community both as a family man and a public official. I think it will be proper, due to the circumstances of your situation, to put a statement from you into the record of these proceedings before the Commission, and so, with your permission, I will ask you some questions at this time.

Mr. STEELE. All right.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you are a native-born American here, and your wife is a native-born American, and all your children were born here, is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Correct.

Mr. JENNER. In and around this area?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You are how old now, sir?

Mr. STEELE. I am 44, but I will be 45 the 15th of August, this year--1964.

Mr. JENNER. Do you have any children in addition to Charles Hall, Jr.?

Mr. STEELE. I have a daughter Jacqueline; she's a twin to Charles, and I have one boy Gerald, who is aged 13.

Mr. JENNER. Jacqueline, what is she doing?

Mr. STEELE. She is at Mercy Hospital, a student nurse. She will graduate in August.

Mr. JENNER. Now, tell me about yourself, Mr. Steele?

Mr. STEELE. I am a deputy sheriff, attached to the Civil District Court, and an officer of the court. I own a small business known as the Liberty Coffee and Household Co.

Mr. JENNER. You are a service man, are you?

Mr. STEELE. 23 years on active National Guard status, subject to 24 hours' notice.

Mr. JENNER. Were you in World War II?

Mr. STEELE. I was.

Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of that service?

Mr. STEELE. I was inducted right here in 1941, June or July; I don't remember exactly, and I went on duty with the AFRTC, at Fort Knox, Ky. That's the Air Force Replacement Training Center, at Fort Knox, and then I was transferred to the 5th Armored Division, and that division was sent to England, but I didn't go with them. I was in the cadre that was sent to the Tank Destroyer Battalion at Camp Forest, Tenn., and we pulled winter maneuvers, after which they found that our unit was not ready to go overseas, so we were disbanded and I was then sent to the 631st Tank Destroyer Battalion at Camp Shelby, where I was a sergeant, and then I was sent to the 773d Tank Destroyer Battalion, and I finally ended up after 2 years in Charleston, S.C., in charge of a G.U. ward, so I spent two lovely years living off of Uncle Sam, and I was discharged as a staff sergeant, and then I went to Fort Sill, Okla., in 1949, after being commissioned in the National Guard in 1948, and received my field commission in artillery, and I have stepped my way up to where I am now a major, general staff, assistant G-4.

Mr. JENNER. All right; now tell me about your boy. Had he ever been in trouble before this thing occurred?

Mr. STEELE. He never had a police record, or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Are you Catholic?

Mr. STEELE. My family is; I am not. I am Presbyterian, but the children are Catholic.

Mr. JENNER. Then I take it your boy has never been in any serious trouble?

Mr. STEELE. He had better not be.

Mr. JENNER. You heard his story, didn't you, Mr. Steele, about what happened on this occasion?

Mr. STEELE. I started that story off with him from the minute he hit that front door, and I have been right with him on down through the FBI, the Secret Service, and everybody, right on through, and this is the only time that he has ever been questioned outside of my presence.

Mr. JENNER. Well, he is your son, and I know you have his welfare in mind all the time, and there is a possibility that fathers might become prejudiced in matters of this kind, but knowing him as you do and being his father, and knowing his weaknesses and so forth, do you think now that he is telling the truth about this?

Mr. STEELE. Well, let me put it this way. In my experience, being a battery commander and handling 60 to 70 men at one time, and I have been in court, and with my experience and all that, I have honestly tried to trick him, using the same tactics that you might say the best attorneys would use, and I feel that he is honestly telling the truth. I feel he has told that story over and over again in exactly the same way, so that's the only conclusion I can come to. In my own mind, I am positive he didn't know what he was doing at the time.

Mr. JENNER. You gave him a good cross examination, in other words, is that right?

Mr. STEELE. Believe me, because I was under a nervous tension over this, I'll tell you. I was just promoted in August, to my present position, and actually I am not a State officer; I am a Federal officer, and at the same time I had been in the middle of a campaign, running for the democratic nomination for committeeman, and I am a member of the pledged electors' group, and I advocate that I as a Democrat am pledged to the choice of the Democratic Party, and I just couldn't stand by and let something like this come up and take that all away from me, so I certainly did cross-examine him, and I got to the bottom of it, and I'm satisfied that he was not at fault. He had a weak moment in which he saw a chance to make a couple of bucks, but other than that, he didn't have the slightest idea of what he was doing. I'm satisfied of that.

Mr. JENNER. Is there anything else that you would like to add to what you have said, Mr. Steele?

Mr. STEELE. No; I think that's about it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you have the privilege, if you wish, to read and sign your deposition, or you may waive that, and the reporter will transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to Washington. What is your preference on that?

Mr. STEELE. I will waive it.

Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Steele; thank you for coming in and testifying voluntarily. I wanted your background in the record, in view of the fact that your boy did have personal contact with Oswald and particularly because of your position in the community, I wanted your background in the record. Thank you very much.

Mr. STEELE. I think I can promise you that he is not going to get into any more trouble. We had that out over and over, and I don't think he will be passing out any more leaflets.

Mr. JENNER. I think we all believe that, Mr. Steele; well, thank you again for giving your statement. It will be of help to the Commission in evaluating the testimony of your son, by showing his family background, and so forth. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF PHILIP GERACI III

The testimony of Philip Geraci III, accompanied by his mother, was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

(Reporter's Note: The witness, Philip Geraci, was accompanied into the hearing room by his mother.)

Philip Geraci, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.

I understand that Mr. Lee Rankin wrote you a letter last week in which he told you that I would contact you, did he not?

Mr. GERACI. A letter? No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not receive a letter from Mr. Rankin?

Mrs. GERACI. Would you please give us one. We would like to have it to keep.

Mr. GERACI. Somebody said they sent one.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't receive it?

Mr. GERACI. No.

Mrs. GERACI. We did not receive it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I think in point of fact that is right. I think that the decision to take your testimony was made subsequent to the time that the letters were sent out to other witnesses. Now you are----

Mrs. GERACI. May I make a statement before we go any further?

Mr. LIEBELER. Let the record indicate that Mrs. Geraci is in the hearing room at her request to assist her son and give moral support.

Mrs. GERACI. And we want no publicity at all, please.

Mr. LIEBELER. We have already given to the reporters the names of some of the witnesses who came in, but we have already been advised that you did not want any publicity at this point, and we did not give your name to the newspaper reporter or make any statement about Philip's appearance here.

Mr. GERACI. Does that mean I can't tell anyone about it?

Mr. LIEBELER. That is something you can settle among yourselves.

Mr. GERACI. I told everybody I went to a doctor's appointment this evening.

Mr. LIEBELER. [Handing documents to witness] Now I want to give you a copy of the Joint Resolution of Congress and of the Executive order that I have just referred to, and also of the Rules of Practice adopted by the Commission concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. Those rules provide that technically you are entitled to 3 days' notice before you appear to have your testimony taken, but you are entitled to waive that notice, and I assume that, since you are here, you would be willing to waive it with regard to the testimony. Is that right, Philip?

Mr. GERACI. I don't know.

Mrs. GERACI. Yes. Well, they did not notify us 3 days ahead of time, but that is all right. We are here. They called yesterday.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated that you are willing to go ahead with the testimony instead of waiting for the 3 days' notice?

(Mrs. Geraci nodded assent.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Philip, would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. GERACI. Philip Geraci, the Third.

Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?

Mr. GERACI. 2201 Green Acres Road.

Mr. LIEBELER. New Orleans?

Mr. GERACI. Metairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. GERACI. February 21, 1948.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you are now about 16 years old or 17 years old?

Mr. GERACI. Yes. Well, I am 16.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you go to school?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where?

Mr. GERACI. East Jefferson High School.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you are--what?--a junior there now, or a senior?

Mr. GERACI. No, sophomore, 10th grade.

Mr. LIEBELER. 10th grade. Do you know a man by the name of Carlos Bringuier?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet him?

Mr. GERACI. Well, this was summer, last summer, some place around the beginning of it, and--you want me to tell you everything about it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GERACI. Well, I was down there with a friend. [Addressing mother.] Do you think I should give his name?

(Mrs. Geraci nodded assent.)

Mr. LIEBELER. Please do. You were down where?

Mr. GERACI. Down there in New Orleans, I mean on Canal Street. We had to go to some radio shop. It was Bill Dwyer. That is a friend. And we were down there and we wanted to go in radio shops and everything, so I saw--going down there I saw, looking to the side, that they had a sign saying "Casa Roca," and I took Spanish in school, so I was interested, and I went in there and--well, he was a little reluctant, but we went anyway.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your friend was a little reluctant?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, a little bit. He didn't get mixed up in this or anything. And then, well, when we were in there, we looked around a little at everything, then I asked the man there--I didn't know it was Carlos Bringuier then--I asked him was he a Cuban. He said yes, he was an exile, and everything, you know. I asked him a few things, I guess--I don't know exactly what--you know, just a little conversation like. Then I ask him was there anything that I as an American could do. He said, well, he didn't know, to come back later. You know, he acted as though maybe--like--just like he just didn't want me to help or something like that, I guess, so we left and went home, and that was it.

Mr. LIEBELER. And when did you see him again, if you did? You did see him again, didn't you?

Mr. GERACI. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. When?

Mr. GERACI. I don't remember when. I remember I saw him a few times, I couldn't exactly say how many, but I went back another time when I was in town, I stopped off and saw him, and I saw him another time. Then I think it was about the fourth time that I was there that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get to that, did you ever raise any money for Carlos' activities?

Mr. GERACI. Not until the third time.

Mr. LIEBELER. What happened?

Mr. GERACI. No; wait. Come to think of it, I think it was about the fifth time that I saw Oswald; something like that. I remember I went back--it was about the third time--after asking him--I asked him, "Do you think it is possible to raise donations?" And he said, "Well, yes; it is possible." And he showed me these little yellow slips, sort of like yellow, and they were like receipts if you paid, and he said I could get them--you know--if I wanted to, I could, you know, go, and he could give them to me, and go and get donations and give the people this receipt and bring the money back to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. So did you take some of the receipts?

Mr. GERACI. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And did you get some money?

Mr. GERACI. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you gave it to Carlos?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; it was about $10.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you turned that money over to him?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, is it correct that on the day that you came into the Casa Roca to give this money to Carlos that you met Lee Oswald?

Mr. GERACI. I don't know if I turned in the money or not. No; I don't think I turned in money, but I couldn't be sure. I remember I went there, and that is the time the last guy, Vance Blalock, came along with me. It was his first time and everything. And we went in there--I might have turned it in, I am not too sure. Maybe I did; maybe I didn't. I can't remember too much, but I was in there anyway talking to him and that is when I met him.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is when you met Oswald?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; you want me to tell all that?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; tell me all the circumstances of how Oswald----

Mr. GERACI. Everything I know?

Mr. LIEBELER. Met you and everything you know about it, what the conversation was, who was there.

Mr. GERACI. Well, we were--Vance and me went in there, Vance and I, we went into there, I introduced Vance to Carlos, and Carlos started talking to him about, you know, freedom and all that, democracy and everything. Then later on while we were talking, Lee Oswald came in, you know, while we were talking, and he came in a little while later. He was by himself and he seemed a little nervous. I remember he was dressed just like in that picture there shows. [Indicating photograph.]

Mr. LIEBELER. You are referring to a picture here on the table?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir; well he was dressed something like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which has previously been marked as Exhibit 1 to the affidavit of Jesse J. Garner. I show you that picture. [Exhibiting photograph to witness.] You say Lee was dressed something like that when you met him?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; you know, he had on a tie and a shirt, short sleeved shirt, and sort of like dress pants. I don't know the color of them, but they were sort of like dress pants, just about as much as this. [Indicating photograph.]

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize that individual in the picture as being the man that you saw in the store that day?

Mr. GERACI. Well, tell you the truth, when I first heard about it in the papers and on the TV, I didn't recognize him. See, I forgot that I met this guy over there, you know, I forgot about it, and I thought I didn't meet him. It wasn't until the FBI man came to my house and he showed me a picture of him when he was first under arrest, and he got arrested in August, the 4th I think.

Mr. LIEBELER. He showed you a picture that had been taken of Lee when he had been under arrest here in New Orleans?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; it was one of those things with three things, showing him from the front, the side, and his face.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then recognize the man in the picture that they showed you as being the man that you met in the store that day?

Mr. GERACI. Well, you see, I didn't exactly recognize him maybe, but anyway I was pretty sure it was him though. He said--he showed me that and said, "Do you ever remember an ex-marine--and then I remembered there was a guy who was dressed something like that who was an ex-marine who came in, and he did have a funny name, you know, like Lee. It's a little unusual, it's kind of rare, and I remembered the last name was a little hard, so it just fits that that was him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now what kind of conversations did you have with this fellow or what did you talk about?

Mr. GERACI. Well, first----

Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it now, there were this marine, Lee Oswald, and Carlos, and Vance Blalock and yourself. Is that right?

Mr. GERACI. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else there?

Mr. GERACI. Well, while we were talking, this man came up. He was in a big truck, some big truck. I never looked at it closely. He came up and stopped, and the man rushed in, and he was wearing--well, he was wearing one of these--like a cap like you see them wearing over in England. I don't know what kind it is, but anyway it is the kind that truckdrivers wear, I guess, and he looked kind of Spanish. Maybe he was a Cuban exile. He was kind of fat, and he came in and showed Carlos this broken radio that he had, so Carlos left and he started fixing the radio and left us to talk to ourselves, Lee and me and my friend. Well, he is the only other person I know that came in. I don't know if he knew what was going on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now tell us the conversation that you and Lee and Vance and Carlos had, the best you can recall it.

Mr. GERACI. Well, Carlos and me and Vance were kind of talking among ourselves, and he came in and said, "Excuse me," and, you know, he acted a little nervous and things like that. He asked, "Is this the Cuban headquarters, Cuban exile headquarters?" And, "Are you a Cuban exile?" You know, the way I acted when I first went in there. Just asked him a few questions, was he a Cuban exile, and Carlos said yes. He asked him some questions like was he connected with the Cosa Nostra, La Cosi Nostra.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who asked that?

Mr. GERACI. Oswald; he asked that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Of Carlos?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; and Carlos said no, he wasn't. Oswald then asked where was his headquarters--in Miami? And Carlos said yes; and he said--let's see--and then Oswald asked, said something like, "It is kind of exciting meeting someone"--I don't know if he said exciting--but he expressed something like that. He said, you know, he expressed wonder or something like that at meeting somebody who was a real Cuban exile, you know, someone who is really trying to do something to help free Cuba and all that. He didn't really say much. In the papers they said he tried to join and all that. That must have been later, because this was----

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't do that when you were there?

Mr. GERACI. No. This was his first visit. As far as I can make out, it must have been, and he asked a few questions like that. Carlos just answered real simply and all that, he didn't go into any big speeches, you know, with them, like he did for me and Vance, just answered his questions simply. Then when the man came in with the broken radio, Carlos left, and that left Oswald, me, and Vance by ourselves.

Then, well, we asked--you know, we were a little interested in guerrilla warfare ourselves and things like that, and he said, well, he was an ex-marine, said he was in the Marines once. He said he learned a little bit about that stuff, and he said a few things about guerrilla warfare I remember, like he said the way to derail a train was to wrap chain around the ties of the track and then lock it with a padlock and the train would derail. He said the thing he liked best of all was learning how to blow up the Huey P. Long Bridge. He said you put explosive at each end on the banks and blow it up, and that leaves the one column standing. And he said how to make a homemade gun and how to make gunpowder, homemade gunpowder. He just went into those real simply. He didn't really, you know, tell us how to do it or anything, just said like if you want to make a homemade gun, you know, do something like--you know, the thing you pull back [demonstrating] and it goes forward, like on one of the pinball machines. He just said something like that. He didn't really go into detail or anything. We didn't ask him. And by this time Carlos came back from the other guy, and came back, and he was listening, and, well, that is about all.

Oh, there was one important thing. Oswald said something like that he had a military manual from when he was in the Marines, and he said he would give it to me, and I said, "That is all right. You don't have to. You can give it to Carlos." He said, "Well, OK, he will give it to Carlos next time he comes."

And after that--well, everybody left. That is as far as I can make out.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember----

Mr. GERACI. And he said he was going to come back later and give Carlos this military manual from when he was in the Marines.

Mr. LIEBELER. And was he going to give this to Carlos for Carlos' benefit, or was he----

Mr. GERACI. For Carlos' benefit, I guess, Carlos' or the Cuban exiles'.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any conversation about training guerrillas to oppose Castro?

Mr. GERACI. No. He didn't say anything about being an expert rifle shooter, never said anything about going to Russia or joining or training or anything like that.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well, was there a conversation concerning the training of anti-Castro troops or guerrillas to oppose Castro?

Mr. GERACI. No; that must have been later, maybe when he came back some other time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now were you present at all times while Oswald was there?

Mr. GERACI. We got there before he did and we left at the same time he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. So, as far as you know, there wouldn't have been any opportunity for Oswald and Carlos to talk among themselves where you wouldn't have heard what they said?

Mr. GERACI. That is right; because we were there all the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you have no recollection that Oswald told Carlos that he wanted to help train anti-Castro guerrillas to fight against Castro?

Mr. GERACI. None at all; none that I remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. All right. Now what was Oswald going to bring this marine book back for?

Mr. GERACI. Well, I guess to give to Carlos to help him out or something. First he was going to give it to me and Vance. I guess he wanted us to blow up the bridge or something. I don't know. We said no; and so he said, "OK, I will give it to Carlos," you know, because after all Carlos--I guess he could use it better than we could, you know, blow up bridges in Cuba or something, and I guess he was just going to give it to him so he could learn some stuff from it. I wouldn't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you left the store did you try to follow Oswald at all?

Mr. GERACI. Well, we had some thought about it. When he left, he was going to go down--he crossed Canal Street and he was--he kept on going that way, I think on St. Charles or Claiborne--way down there near the end--which one is closer to the river? St. Charles?

Mr. LIEBELER. I am not familiar with New Orleans, so I get them mixed up.

Mr. GERACI. It must have been St. Charles he went down, and Vance said, "Hey, let's follow him, see where he lives." He told us where he lived, but the way he told us the address----

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know what it was?

Mr. GERACI. When the FBI man came by my house that day, he asked me, and I could just barely remember it. I remember it was to the left of Canal Street. It was Magazine Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Magazine Street? What number?

Mr. GERACI. Well, I remembered the number a little. I couldn't remember it altogether, but I remember----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that he had told you the number?

Mr. GERACI. Yes; and I could--I had a few--I mean I had a little recollection about what it was, like it was a big number sort of like and had two zeros in it or something. I don't even remember. It seemed that his number did have that. We decided--we thought maybe we can follow him for fun, but we decided no, we had better not, you know, because it was not good or anything, so we just went up Canal Street.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald said anything about having been in Florida?

Mr. GERACI. In Florida?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.

Mr. GERACI. I am not too sure about that.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't remember one way or the other whether----

Mr. GERACI. The only thing I remember about Florida is when he asked was headquarters down there. He could have, but I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you ever see Oswald after that?

Mr. GERACI. No; that was the last time; first and last.

Mr. LIEBELER. How about Carlos? Did you see him after that?