Chapter XXVII: Part 27

Mr. DAVIS. Not that particular shot.

Mr. LIEBELER. I will show you an exhibit marked Pizzo 453-C, and ask you if you recognize that individual as being one of those who were at your range on the date we have been discussing?

Mr. DAVIS. I have saw that picture or similar one before.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have seen the picture before?

Mr. DAVIS. I have seen a picture similar to him before. There was a scar on his head, but as far as that is concerned, I don't believe I have saw the individual.

Mr. LIEBELER. You can't identify that individual as either one of the two that was at the range?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; definitely.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you Exhibit 451 again and ask you if that individual appears to you to be the same individual as Lee Harvey Oswald, based on your observation of Oswald's picture in the newspaper and the press?

Mr. DAVIS. That this is Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes. Does that appear to you to be Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. It does not?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. This Mr. Price did say that Oswald was in an old model Chevrolet when he was out there on this Friday, the 9th, because it was late in the afternoon when he came out there.

And Mr. Price helped him sight that rifle in. Helped him sight the scope in on the rifle, and he had two comments to say about that rifle, sir.

I am not for sure, I don't know anything about it, but he said that the markings, all but the serial number had been filed off of this particular rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price did say that?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir. And he said that the scope was the clearest scope that he had ever seen for a small scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what size scope it was?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; he told me, but as far as----

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what he said?

Mr. DAVIS. Not the exact size of it. I know there was several different sizes of scopes on there.

Mr. LIEBELER. The size of this scope is measured in terms of power?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. There is 2, 2-1/2, 4, 6, and on up. And he knows the sizes, what he was talking about, but I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you known Mr. Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have actually only known him since the rifle range opened. But two of his boys has helped us at the racetrack or helped my wife last summer, at the racetrack, all summer. And as far as an individual person, I didn't know him until we opened the gun range, other than just to speak to him.

Mr. LIEBELER. How old a fellow is he?

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price is approximately 35, and he does have a heart condition that the doctors won't let him work, as far as any work is concerned, and that is why he stays down at the range, more or less to watch it for us.

Mr. LIEBELER. In your opinion, is he a reliable fellow?

Mr. DAVIS. He is very reliable, or I wouldn't have him down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't think he would say he saw Oswald if he didn't in fact see him?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir. In fact, he told us about this before we called the FBI. But he was afraid--he's got five children, and he was afraid that it was some Communist plot or some gang that had done this, and he was afraid for his children, or he would have called them sooner.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is not a publicity seeker?

Mr. DAVIS. No; he wasn't. I would say he was very sincere of this. It might have been a case about a double identity or someone that looked a lot like him. I would say definitely that he thought he saw him.

There was also some doctor or lawyer in Oak Cliff, and his son, that he said he saw him out there on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. That was on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Dr. Wood?

Mr. DAVIS. I believe it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Dentist?

Mr. DAVIS. He might be a dentist. They told us at the range--Charlie Brown, I believe, afterwards, of the FBI, said that he wasn't sure it was him, but they told us previously they were sure that it was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Has the FBI ever advised you as to the results of the tests they probably ran on or did run on the cartridge cases you gave them?

Mr. DAVIS. No; nothing. I asked them if they were all there when they returned them. He did return them, and he said they were all there, so I took it from that that they didn't find anything in the case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether the cases that you gave the FBI were cases that were used in a rifle that were used by these gentlemen that were firing from booth No. 8, on November 17, 1963?

Mr. DAVIS. From what Mr. Price told me, he was down at the range helping out on the particular target. He saw these fellows pick up all the shells and--they shot that day, which is very frequent, because they reload a lot of that ammunition, but these particular fellows did pick them up.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did your wife observe these two individuals on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; she was in the office, she doesn't remember them, or she said before that she didn't remember them. She doesn't remember this part I was telling you about, about Slack coming to them and complaining about their shooting the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who else said they saw Oswald on the 9th and 10th?

Mr. DAVIS. That was Mr. Price.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Mr. Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. Mr. Slack said he saw him on the 17th.

Mr. LIEBELER. The 17th only?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you give me Mr. Slack's full name?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I don't have it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He is just a customer of yours, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir; Mr. Brown has talked to him before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price was not at the range on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. Price was at the range on the 17th; yes, also.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he also say that he thinks that these gentlemen were with Mr. Oswald?

Mr. DAVIS. He thought this one individual that was with this taller fellow in booth No. 8, was Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Both Mr. Slack and Mr. Price came to that conclusion, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Am I correct in understanding then that both Mr. Price and Mr. Slack observed these two gentlemen on the 17th, but only Mr. Price observed them on the 9th and 10th, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Price thinks they are the same men?

Mr. DAVIS. He definitely thinks that it is the same man Oswald on the 9th and 10th. I don't believe he said there was anyone with him, and that he come out there just at dark, right before dark and was driving an old-model Chevrolet, or was in an old-model Chevrolet.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it just a car or a station wagon?

Mr. DAVIS. I don't remember. He just said it was an old-model car, and he could have meant a station wagon when he said an old car.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe the rifle that these men at booth 8, were using?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You did not at anytime observe it?

Mr. DAVIS. I possibly could have when I walked up there, but I didn't pay any attention.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you wouldn't be able to identify that rifle if I showed you a picture of it now?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; when you see as many rifles as I do out at that range out there, it would be hard unless there was something outstanding about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nothing outstanding about that that you can remember now?

Mr. DAVIS. I was more or less mad when I went down there, because someone was shooting at the wrong target.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe these two gentlemen leaving the range on the 17th?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you had experience with the sighting in of rifles?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are quite experienced in that field, as a matter of fact, are you not?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, I have taught myself in the past 5 months of operation of that gun range to where I can usually sight one in within 8 to 10 shots pretty close. Mr. Price is a gun enthusiast and he is real good at it, and he has been doing it for a long time.

Mr. LIEBELER. If a man purchased a rifle from a mail-order house that had a telescopic sight mounted on it, would you have any opinion as to what the accuracy of that rifle would be without it having actually been sighted in by actual firing of the rifle?

Mr. DAVIS. If the gun was anywhere near accurate, it would have to be an accident, because the slightest jar can knock a scope 2 or 3 foot out of balance, and there is no way that you could ship a gun and carry a gun around a little bit and make sure it being accurate. That is why your deer hunters practice and shoot their guns in every year before they go deer hunting. And I have saw them waste almost five boxes of shells trying to get them accurate down there after having sighted them in the year before.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the technique of boresighting?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. If a rifle is boresighted is that enough to make it accurate?

Mr. DAVIS. By the average individual, no. And by the shops around Dallas here, no. Because they have brought us several guns out there that have been boresighted in various shops around Dallas and we have had to resight them, because another thing, the scope will have to be adjusted to the individual eyes, too.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that can only be done through firing a rifle?

Mr. DAVIS. That is right, that can only be done from firing a rifle and sighting it in. You can get it close, but you couldn't get it right on target, especially at a hundred yards.

Every gun I sight in, I boresight them myself at a 25-yard target to get them into the 25-yard target, and once I get it within an inch of the "bullseye," then I go to the long range, which is easy to bring it in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the Irving Sports Shop in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. DAVIS. Nothing; only I have dropped a poster off, advertising, when I first opened the gun range, and I am not familiar with the owner of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Dial Ryder?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not the name. I may know the face, but I don't know the name.

Mr. LIEBELER. He works in the Irving Sports Shop.

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Sights rifles and mounts scopes and things like that.

Mr. DAVIS. No; I am not familiar with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether you have ever sighted in a rifle that has been boresighted at the Irving Sports Shop?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; not offhand. We usually don't ask them where they sighted the guns in because it is not a good idea to run down any gunshop.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the area around Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. Fairly familiar with it; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to practice with a high-powered rifle around Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. It would be right about Bachman Lake, around the lake itself, as long as the police didn't catch you. There is the river bottom right in there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it would be possible to fire out there, to sight a rifle in without having a police notice it or someone in the neighborhood notice it and calling it to the police?

Mr. DAVIS. As long as you stayed 400 yards off the highway, there is places down there you could get that it would be possible.

Mr. LIEBELER. There are areas surrounding the field that are not built up to such an extent so that you could actually practice with a rifle in that area, is that correct?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of anybody firing a rifle in that vicinity?

Mr. DAVIS. I have people all the time that have been practicing in the Trinity River bottoms around Dallas come out to the range and have been glad we opened that range so they could quit it because it is not a safe practice.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that near Love Field?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes. The Trinity River bottom is not far from there. It is actually between Irving and Love Field.

Mr. LIEBELER. How far is it from Love Field itself if you wanted to go to the Trinity River bottom and didn't have an automobile? Could you take a bus to Love Field or near Love Field and then walk that readily to the Trinity River bottom?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. One could do that very easily?

Mr. DAVIS. It is a mile and a half.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't have any other questions at this point. I do want to ask you if you can give me, Mr. Davis, Mr. Slack's address?

Mr. DAVIS. I don't have it here, but I have some clippings at home out of a newspaper that has it there. He lives on Urbandale. If you have a Dallas phone book, I can probably get it out of the phone book.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Price?

Mr. DAVIS. Mr. Price lives on Rice Street in Grand Prairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you can think of anything that you would like to add to the record, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that.

Mr. DAVIS. The only thing that I would like to say is that there were several other people mentioned that they saw Oswald on the 17th, but they said they didn't want to get involved in it. I don't know whether they were just talking or what it was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names?

Mr. DAVIS. Not no particular persons. My wife, I'm sure, can tell you some of them. She more or less runs the gun range through the week, and I am only there through the weekend.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much for coming in, Mr. Davis. I appreciate your cooperation. The Commission wants you to know that it appreciates the fact that you have cooperated with us in the way you have. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF VIRGINIA LOUISE DAVIS

The testimony of Virginia Louise Davis was taken at 10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. DAVIS. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission that is investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.

As I told your husband, whose testimony which I just took, Mr. Rankin sent you both a letter last week which was returned to Washington because it could not be delivered at the gun range. It was addressed to the Sports Drome Rifle Range and it could not be delivered there.

Mr. Rankin in the letter advised you that we would be in touch with you to arrange for the taking of your testimony. He enclosed copies of the Executive order and the congressional resolution, as well as a copy of the Commission's rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses.

I gave your husband a copy of those documents and he has them and will make them available to you if you want to look at them. You have been provided with copies this morning.

As I told Mr. Davis, you are technically entitled to 3-days' notice before appearing before us, but since you are here, I presume that you would be willing to waive that notice and will go ahead?

Mrs. DAVIS. Sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. We want to question you about the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald engaged in rifle practice at the rifle range which is operated by you and your husband.

Before I get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record?

Mrs. DAVIS. Virginia Louise Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are married to Floyd Guy Davis, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Your address is 2825 Byway, Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Dallas; yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband have been operating the Sports Drome Rifle Range since some time in October 1963; is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you a native of Dallas, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; Kentucky.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where in Kentucky?

Mrs. DAVIS. Louisville.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you move to Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, let's see, it has been 7 years ago, I think. I think we have been here 7 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. You and your husband moved to Dallas from Louisville together; is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. He came down about 6 months before I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you married at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has had reports that various people observed a gentleman whom they believed to be Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome Rifle Range at 8000 West Davis on various occasions. I would like to have you tell us now just what you know about those reports, and whether or not you have ever seen anybody there that resembled Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I did not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have not?

Mrs. DAVIS. No. There is only three things that stand out in my mind at the time it happened that I can verify what they say, and that is the one night that I was there by myself and Mr. Howard Price got the last customer that came in and took him down there, and he said that he thought it was Lee Harvey Oswald because of the rifle, it being an Italian rifle with this scope on it, and he remembered the gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price told you that?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes. And then the other time I was there was, this gentleman that was supposed to have been with him with the beard, and I couldn't forget him--if I would see the man right now I would recognize him, but he has never been back.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us the date that Mr. Price said he took Oswald in, or this man who he thought was Oswald, who was the last customer?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know the exact date, but I wrote it in my journal, but I don't have it with me.

Mr. LIEBELER. When you refer to the journal, what do you mean?

Mrs. DAVIS. It is a daily record I keep of everything that happens at the range. When we first opened, everyone had to sign it. But the FBI picked up the sign-in slips and checked it out, and, of course, Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't on it, but at the time we did not have fences up and anyone could get on the range without us knowing it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not this man who Mr. Price took down to the range this evening as the last customer signed in the book or not?

Mrs. DAVIS. He did not. It was our last customer and he just went on down with him because it was late and they were tired and cold and wanting to get home. But he was in an old car and he was alone and he was a young slender man, and that is all I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what kind of car it was?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I don't.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price does?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he does. But I don't. It is just an old car to me. I don't know too much about cars and then the day that Mr. Slack came up there in a panic because someone was shooting at a target that he had paid for instead of his own, I remember that. That is the only three incidents that I remember, and that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. The first incident was when?

Mrs. DAVIS. A late customer when Mr. Price brought them in.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man was a late customer?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; I did, but it was dark and I didn't see his face. I just went to the window and Mr. Price said, "I will take him. You won't have to take him down." We always take the customer to the range and stay with them and put their target up for them because you can't let them stay down there. They are liable to shoot anything, and he took him down, and I locked up, and I left, and they were there.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are not able to identify this man if I showed you a picture of Oswald or someone else?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't remember.

Mr. LIEBELER. The second incident was when Mr. Slack reported to you that someone was firing his target, is that correct? Or was that the third incident?

Mrs. DAVIS. That was the third incident.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let's cover that one. Mr. Slack came up to the office, you say, and complained that someone was firing on his target?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do?

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband went down there and asked the boys to quit firing at someone else's target, and he said something about, "Boys, you must fire at your own target," or something like that. And he got it straightened out, but they left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of these men at that time?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; I was in the office. I take care of that part of it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this man with the beard there at that time, do you know?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; that was on a Sunday afternoon or a Saturday. It was a Saturday or a Sunday, and the reason I remember him, it was the same day they said Oswald was out there, and I tried to talk to him, which I talked to everyone that comes in, and he was noticeable because he looked like the Castro type. He had this big beard and he was heavy set and big broad shoulders, and well, he was just outstanding in his appearance. He had big red earmuffs on and I couldn't help but notice him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was anyone with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know because he never spoke a word. I don't know if anyone was with him or not, but he did have several guns. When I say several, I mean not one or two. It was three or four, and he paid for each rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not see anyone with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. That was Saturday or Sunday, you say?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was a Saturday or a Sunday, and we was having turkey shoots at the time and having several people out there.

Mr. LIEBELER. That is when the man with the beard was there, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was that the same day that the gentleman complained about somebody firing into their target?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was. It was the same day they was complaining about the two boys next to him firing into his target.

Mr. LIEBELER. We mean Mr. Slack, do we not?

Mrs. DAVIS. Mr. Slack.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you yourself did not see either of these two men who were supposedly firing into Mr. Slack's target?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you did not yourself personally observe any of those gentlemen or who was supposed to have been Lee Oswald, is that correct?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever observe the rifle that was in the possession of this gentleman who was supposed to be Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; at the time I didn't know one gun from another. Now I can tell you everything they bring in.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not on this Sunday that Mr. Slack complained that someone was firing into his target, everybody signed into the journal?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not everyone, because at the time we didn't have our fences up. See, we have a fence that is all along the gun range, because there were too many getting on the range without paying.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not the two men who were supposed to be firing into Mr. Slack's target signed in the journal?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. You don't know one way or the other, Mrs. Davis?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't know, because the only reason we was having them sign in was to sign them cards to invite them to the next turkey shoot.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you have seen them at the time they signed it, necessarily, or might someone else?

Mrs. DAVIS. Someone might sign in for them.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you would not necessarily have observed these individuals signing in?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; because the man who was outstanding, he didn't sign in. I didn't see the man until he walked through the gun range. He didn't walk through the entrance, or I would have seen him.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Davis mentioned the names of Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, and he said that there were some others.

Mrs. DAVIS. There was a doctor and his son that was out there that day. They remembered the rifle and they reported that to me before any of it came out in the paper, but I didn't get his name. But I do think that the FBI contacted this doctor.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you remember his name if I told you it was Dr. Wood? Would that ring a bell with you?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, it doesn't. It has been so long ago.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, other than this doctor and Mr. Slack and Mr. Price, do you know of anyone else who said that they thought that they saw Oswald at the range?

Mrs. DAVIS. Not that I would take their word for it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us what you mean by that. You must have somebody in mind, somebody who told you these stories, and I would like to have you tell them to us if you would.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, there was a mister--what is his name--Camplen, Charlie Camplen, and he said he was out there on a Wednesday.

Mr. LIEBELER. He said that Oswald?----

Mrs. DAVIS. But I didn't get into any detail, so I don't know.

Mr. LIEBELER. But Camplen told you he saw Oswald on a Wednesday?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anybody else that has claimed to have seen Oswald at the range?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Mr. James Thompson?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; Jim, he did say he thought he did, and I think he kind of backed off. I don't know what to believe. I just don't know. He said he wasn't going to say he did, because he couldn't swear to it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what day that he, Mr. Thompson, thought he might have seen Oswald?

Mrs. DAVIS. It was on a Sunday. It was the same Sunday, because he was helping run the targets down.

Mr. LIEBELER. What did Thompson tell you about this?

Mrs. DAVIS. He told--he didn't talk to me too much about it. In fact, he said he don't remember. He couldn't say he actually saw him. At first he did say he saw him, and he did remember the incident about the target, and Slack, but he don't, he said he couldn't swear that it was Oswald. And we have never discussed it further.

Mr. LIEBELER. Thompson lives----

Mrs. DAVIS. He is with the Bardahl Co. He is a representative of Bardahl.

Mr. LIEBELER. Does he live in the 1100 block of Gilpin Street?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. What about Mr. B. G. Moses, do you know him?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; he is a neighbor. He lives across the street from me. But I just don't know about him. I mean, he hasn't had too much to say about it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he talk to you about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; in a way, he did, and well, in a way--he didn't actually come out and say--he said, "I think I saw him." I will put it that way. He thinks.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was this the same Sunday that you had the incident concerning the target?

Mrs. DAVIS. He worked that week, but I don't know if he was down there or not that Sunday. It seems to me like he was working the trap. He was in the office, come in and out of the office, but I don't think he was on the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the Sunday we are speaking of?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the date of this Sunday?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I don't. I think it was around November, maybe the 13th, something like that. I wouldn't know unless I had my dates in front of me. I don't remember names or dates too well, but I remember faces.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it the weekend before the assassination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Oh, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. It was the last weekend preceding the assassination?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes; and we did quite a bit of advertising when we opened that range. The last week in October is when we opened the range, and we had in that month, we ran, let's see, it was 1600 and some people through there, so you know the word got around that it was a public gun range and was open.

Mr. LIEBELER. So that anybody who was interested in it would have known about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any opinion as to whether or not Oswald was really at the range as a result of all these discussions?

Mrs. DAVIS. I really do think he was. I didn't see the man. I couldn't say one word, but I really think he was, sincerely, because the two men, especially Howard Price, he is the kind of person that you can believe what he says. He is intelligent. When he says he knows a rifle, he knows that rifle. He can get out there and dig out slugs, which he does, and melt them down to the lead, and he can tell you what slug is out of each gun, which I can't do. He is just a gun enthusiast and he loves it and he remembered that gun.

But that is the only thing I can say. I did not see the man and I couldn't say. I mean nothing except I would take his word for it. He wouldn't be the kind, and he told us this before it all come out in the paper, and the rifle, it hadn't been identified in the paper when he identified it. But Slack, I don't know too much about him. He is just a temperamental hothead. He was very hot, and they kept kicking his booth. He said they had odd shoes on and kept kicking his booth. If someone is knocking this desk, she couldn't write, and he kept knocking the side of the booth and he couldn't shoot, and that made him angry. But that is the only thing that I know.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are basing your opinion basically on the conversation you had with Mr. Price and your respect for Mr. Price's judgment?

Mrs. DAVIS. That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price tell you, or did you learn how these men got to the rifle range?

Mrs. DAVIS. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did they walk or come in a car?

Mrs. DAVIS. Now, Mr. Price said they came in a car, this old car. I think he knows the make of it, but like I say, I didn't see him. The only thing--only time I saw a car at a late arrival was the night I was telling you about that Price took him down there, but I saw the man get out, but that is all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Price see these two men on the Sunday before the assassination when they had the incident over the target?

Mrs. DAVIS. I don't think he was down there that day. I don't remember. I don't think so. I know Jim Thompson was working that day and Mr. Moses and my husband and I, and we never have over four, so I don't think we was--I may be mistaken, he may have been there, but not working for us, because he was there every day.

Mr. LIEBELER. Price was?

Mrs. DAVIS. Price was.

Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anybody else who might have seen Oswald at the range, or this fellow they thought was Oswald, come and told you about it?

Mrs. DAVIS. No, I sure can't.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions at this point. Is there anything that you can think of?

Mrs. DAVIS. I have thought and thought, and I would give anything if I could think of something or identify someone he was with. I think that would be more of a help to you people than anything, wouldn't it?

Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, it would.

Mrs. DAVIS. My husband did call in that he saw this bearded man. Do you have that on your records?

Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband told us.

Mrs. DAVIS. He went right to the phone and called, because we were convinced. Do you know anybody that was with him that day? The man may be completely innocent, but we just feel that he was with him because he was so belligerent and stood around and he wouldn't talk. You don't find people like that at a gun range. They are really friendly and they come out to shoot and have a good time, and I have never had anyone treat me like he did.

Mr. LIEBELER. This bearded man?

Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see the rifle that the bearded man had with him?

Mrs. DAVIS. He had several, yes. He had them, but I couldn't identify them. I could now. They like for you to discuss their rifles with them when they come in. They think they are important, you know. And now I can identify a rifle, but I didn't know a rifle from a shotgun, a .22 from a 16-gauge shotgun. I mean, I didn't know the difference.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you wouldn't be able to identify the rifle that the bearded man had with him if I showed you pictures of a rifle?

Mrs. DAVIS. No; because like I say, at that time they were just guns.

Mr. LIEBELER. If you don't have anything else that you think would be helpful to us at this point, I will thank you for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. I want you to know the Commission appreciates it very much.

Mrs. DAVIS. All right.

TESTIMONY OF MALCOLM HOWARD PRICE, JR.

The testimony of Malcolm Howard Price, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise, sir, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PRICE. I do.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give to you a copy of that Executive order and of that joint resolution, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses.

We want to inquire of you concerning the possibility that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald at the Sports Drome Rifle Range, 8000 West Davis, sometime in November 1963.

Before we get into the details, I would like to have you state your full name for the record.

Mr. PRICE. It is Malcolm Howard Price, Jr.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live, Mr. Price?

Mr. PRICE. At 1127 Rice, Grand Prairie.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?

Mr. PRICE. I was born at Graham, Tex.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you lived all your life here in Texas?

Mr. PRICE. No; I have lived in Oklahoma for 4 years and in California for 5 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived in Dallas--this last time--in Grand Prairie?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, about 13 years.

Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?

Mr. PRICE. April 6, 1928.

Mr. LIEBELER. Where are you employed?

Mr. PRICE. I am retired--I am unemployed.

Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that's primarily because of the fact that you have a heart condition?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that's right.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you married?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; I am.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any children?

Mr. PRICE. I have five.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with Sports Drome Rifle Range?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; very familiar with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. As a matter of fact, you work there from time to time, do you not?

Mr. PRICE. I have helped them there--I'm not, as you say, employed, but I do help there from time to time. They are close friends of mine and I have helped them get the things set up and get it started.

Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to the Davises?

Mr. PRICE. Virginia and Floyd Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. The Commission has information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was Lee Harvey Oswald; is that correct?

Mr. PRICE. That's right. The first time that I saw this person was in September, the last week--the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon that they opened the rifle range.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the last Saturday of September?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. That would be September 28?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me the circumstances under which you first saw this fellow?

Mr. PRICE. Well, it was just about dusky dark and he came in in an old model car, I would judge it was possibly a 1940 or 1941 model Ford.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him?

Mr. PRICE. No; he was by himself, and I have heard that he couldn't drive, but he was driving that day because he was the only one in the car, and he came down and inquired if there was anyone there that could set a scope, a telescope on a rifle, and I told him that I could, and he said, well--he had one that he had had mounted and boresighted but it hadn't been fired on a range and that he would like to have it sighted in, so I went down and set up a target on a hundred yards.

Actually, he set the target up himself and I drove my car and turned the headlights on on the target and as I proceeded to set the rifle--I fired the rifle approximately 12 to--12 to 18 times I would say and zeroed it in on a hundred yards and Mr. Davis came in from work before we left and he also drove his pickup down and turned his lights on. He drove his pickup down on the opposite side and turned his lights on the target.

Mr. LIEBELER. On the opposite side of the target from your car?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; and Mrs. Davis went home--she was tired and wasn't feeling too good and she went home as soon as he got down there.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as Mr. Davis did?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mr. Davis see this fellow at that time?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't know whether he saw him or not. He apparently don't remember it.

Mr. LIEBELER. You have discussed it with Mr. Davis?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, we have talked about it some, but he doesn't--he don't even recall turning his headlights on.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did this man fire the rifle himself?

Mr. PRICE. He fired three shots after I had got it set to where I could fire a pattern, with three shots in a bull's eye. I turned it over to him and I said, "Now, I'm satisfied with it, you try it."

And, he fired three shots and he scored bull's eye with all three--a very tight pattern and he said, "Well, I am completely satisfied."

Mr. LIEBELER. How much did you charge him for zeroing the rifle in?

Mr. PRICE. I didn't charge him anything. I charged him $1 for the use of the range and that was all. I just did that as a favor to Floyd to help him get his business in. I figured this was just another hunter who had come down to get his rifle zeroed in for deer season.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any other conversation with this fellow at that time?

Mr. PRICE. No, that was all. It was rather abrupt. He didn't talk too much, and I was kind of surprised that he didn't fire the rifle more. He just fired the three shots and he said, "Well, that's good enough," and he got up and left.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he leave the shell casings lying there at the range or did he take them with him?

Mr. PRICE. No, he took them with him--he picked them all up after the rifle was fired and took the shell casings along with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You had an opportunity to observe the rifle, did you not?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, I had it in my hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be able to identify the rifle?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I believe I would--it was a foreign make rifle and I wasn't too familiar with it at the time.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see it again?

Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions that he was there.

Mr. LIEBELER. Before we go on to that, you indicated that in order to see the target you had to turn the lights of the automobile on and that of Mr. Davis' truck on; is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was it light up at the rifle range from where you fired?

Mr. PRICE. Oh, yes; we have neon lights there.

Mr. LIEBELER. So you didn't have any difficulty in seeing this fellow?

Mr. PRICE. No--no difficulty at all.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then this fellow just put the rifle in the car and drove off?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he have a gun case or anything like that?

Mr. PRICE. Well, if he did, he didn't bring it down to the firing house.

Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't have anything he wrapped the rifle in?

Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of. In fact, the best I remember, when he got out of the car, he just picked the gun up out of the back seat because it wasn't wrapped in anything or wasn't in a case.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this fellow again?

Mr. PRICE. On two other occasions--one was 2 weeks later and at turkey shoot. It was Sunday, though, it was on a Sunday.

Mr. LIEBELER. It would have been in October sometime, then, is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, it would.

Mr. LIEBELER. The last Saturday in September, which is the day you indicated was the first time you saw him was the 28th of September?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; that was the day they opened. They opened in the afternoon.

Mr. LIEBELER. And 2 weeks later would have been the 12th of October, and the Sunday following would be the 13th of October; is that right?

Mr. PRICE. Yes, somewhere around there. They had a turkey shoot and I went down to participate in a turkey shoot and he was sitting in Booth 6 or 8 and was firing on a 100-yard line with a heavy bore rifle and I didn't talk to him then, but the third time that I saw him there I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this time in October, the day of this turkey shoot, did you see that he had the same rifle you had observed?

Mr. PRICE. No, I didn't pay too much attention to that. I just saw him as he came by and he went on down to the booth. There are people that come down there and some of them have as high as six or seven different rifles. This Mr. Slack that you just talked to--I noticed him in particular because he had quite a variety every time he come down there--he had three or four rifles with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. There's nothing that happened on this second time that you saw that particularly stands out?

Mr. PRICE. Well--not that I know of personally, but I do understand there was a hassle between him and Mr. Slack over shooting the wrong target or something like that. I was over on the opposite end shooting at a target for the turkey shoot and I didn't pay any attention to that. That was their business.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who told you that there was a hassle between this guy and Slack?

Mr. PRICE. It was Mr. Davis and Mrs. Davis.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you, yourself, don't remember anything that happened on this day, as far as this fellow was concerned?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, going back to the first time you saw him, was there anyone there at the rifle range besides this man, Mr. Davis and yourself?

Mr. PRICE. At the first time I saw him--me and Mrs. Davis was the only one there, and we were just fixing to close up and go home and he came in and, like I said, inquired if there was anybody that could set a telescope. I took him down to set his telescope and we stayed there that much longer and Mr. Davis came in and Mrs. Davis went on home.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Davis have an opportunity to see this man?

Mr. PRICE. Not that I know of--she knew there was somebody there but she was inside the building.

Mr. LIEBELER. There was nobody else there?

Mr. PRICE. There was no one else there.

Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time you saw him, the third time?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I don't remember just exactly when it was, but it was--it could be anywhere from 1 to 3 weeks later--I don't remember exactly, but it was on a Sunday, Sunday was the only time I went down there after that in a good while.

Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Price, this is Mr. Davis from the attorney general's office for the State of Texas.

Mr. Price has testified that he saw Oswald out at the Sports Drome Rifle Range.

Mr. PRICE. I don't remember the exact date on that, but the third time that I saw him he did have the same gun.

Mr. LIEBELER. He did?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Well----

Mr. PRICE. And I asked him if it was still doing the job, if it was still set, and he said, "It was shooting just fine," and Mr. Slack was there at the time and at this particular time--that might have been the day that they had the hassle there, I don't know, but they were sitting right next to one another--Mr. Slack was in booth 9 and Oswald was in booth 8, and he commented on his telescope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Who commented on the telescope?

Mr. PRICE. Oswald.

Mr. LIEBELER. Commented to you?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "It's one of the clearest telescopes that I have ever seen--one of the brightest." He said, "It's a Japanese scope and I gave $18 for it."

Mr. LIEBELER. He told you that he paid $18 for it?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a 4-power telescope and he said it was mounted on Redfield mounts. You see, they make mounts for several different guns, but I don't know one mount from another myself. I just took his word for it that it was a Redfield mount, but I looked through the scope and it was very clear. It was very bright and we compared it with two scopes that Mr. Slack had on his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth 7--I don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different American-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. You could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with it.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he paid $18 for the scope or did he say that he paid $18 for the whole works?

Mr. PRICE. No; he said he paid $18 for the scope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had it mounted?

Mr. PRICE. He said that he got the thing from a gunsmith in Cedar Hill for a debt, the gun, and that he bought the scope and that the gunsmith mounted it for him.

Mr. LIEBELER. The same gunsmith?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. And that was in Cedar Hill?

Mr. PRICE. It might be; but I don't know of any gunsmith in Cedar Hill.

Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that he did tell you it was done by a gunsmith in Cedar Hill?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; then, I questioned him about it, I told him, I said, "I didn't know there was a gunsmith in Cedar Hill."

Mr. LIEBELER. And what did he say?

Mr. PRICE. He said, "Yes; one over there and he owed me some money and he gave me this gun to settle the debt" and he said, "I bought the scope and he mounted it and boresighted it."

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where this gunsmith was located?

Mr. PRICE. No; he didn't say anything about the location other than it was in Cedar Hill.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what the guy's name was?

Mr. PRICE. No.

Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anyone with him that day or was he by himself?

Mr. PRICE. I don't know; I don't know whether he was by himself or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't see anybody else that seemed to be with him?

Mr. PRICE. No; there was a lot of people there and everybody was milling around talking to everybody else and I don't know whether he was with anyone or not.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, what about the fellow that was in the booth on the other side of Mr. Slack, do you remember anything about him--I think you said.

Mr. PRICE. All I remember about him was that he was a big fellow with a long black--it was either black or dark red beard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him at all?

Mr. PRICE. Other than just to comment on his scope--I didn't have any conversation at all with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. You are talking about Oswald now?

Mr. PRICE. No; I'm talking about the fellow with the beard.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look through his scope too?

Mr. PRICE. Yes; I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald talk to the fellow with the beard?

Mr. PRICE. Well, I suppose--he spoke to all of them--to Oswald and Slack both, about the clarity of the telescope.

Mr. LIEBELER. Were you there when they were talking about the clarity of Oswald's telescope?

Mr. PRICE. Yes.