Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (8)

2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade at all.

2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back. Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually.

2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?- That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work.

2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it. Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for 35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material, and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her 4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article depended on the workmanship contained in it.

2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing.

2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the Shetland.

2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited. You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get any quantity of fine Shetland wool.

2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut is the usual thing.

2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the Shetland worsted by the pound.

2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your own use?-No.

2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then, in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants. All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that, that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here.

2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the country?-Yes, here and there.

2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the holdings.

2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being proprietors.

2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in Unst, are in that position.

2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater part of the island.

2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery merchants?-I think not, as a rule.

2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't believe it is true.

2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country make them up.

2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash.

2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes, we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the articles.

2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else.

2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general correctness.

2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think that is so, at least not to any extent.

2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen and heads of houses.

2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?- There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I would make advances of cash to her.

2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be ready to help them in that way.

2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned for any balance which she was due.

2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries from my father for them.

2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I daresay was quite correct.

2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such conditions as it appears they are.

2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months, so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent. off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal prices which we have paid for them in goods.

2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are generally long in paying.

2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than 4s.

2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no profit.

2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at the time, but I could not understand it.

2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the course of earning money year after year and that they are compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece of good luck.

2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call them bad debts?-Yes I should say so.

2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring.

Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined.

2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair & Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm.

2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but there are tea, soap, soda, and blue.

2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions.

2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now.

2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and sale of hosiery?-I am.

2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter.

2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer; but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it exactly.

2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money, or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them in cash when they want it.

2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know the character of the customer to whom the advances are made.

2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that.

2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit, and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often been departed from-more particularly lately.

2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes, often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to their credit, to make up for advances which they received when they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several exceptions to it.

2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite equal to the value of it, and frequently more.

2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value of the work returned?-Yes; generally.

2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally required for domestic purposes or for their own wear.

2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more.

2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an account is kept?-Yes.

2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and who have not.

2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?- Yes; the book speaks for itself.

2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50] pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the one should be an exact transcript of the other.

2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and when they come in with any work, of course we square up the books and examine them.

2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods and cash supplied to her was £3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our transactions with her.

2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value.

2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between them at all, because they are separate transactions.

2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book.

2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in goods?-Yes, if she wants them.

2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course not.

2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make a ready-money transaction?-Yes.

2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in goods at any other time.

2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence.

2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money: we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they want it in that way.

2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?- Yes; decidedly.

2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford.

2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash for it.

2400. When was that?-About three months ago.

2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was £4, and I gave her four £1 notes for it.

2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it.

2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it; but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get.

2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us, and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands into the till and pay out cash for them.

2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes.

2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to buy goods which we do not want.

2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may be induced to do it by an importunate woman.

2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the, trade is done in goods-I mean in barter.

2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer otherwise, but these are exceptional cases.

2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition from time immemorial.

2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other.

2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said.

2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them.

2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years.

2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case: because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes; they were prime articles.

2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew, but I cannot recollect their names.

2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in cash?-Yes.

2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was just paid for them at the time.

2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the cash-book showing what it had been paid for.

2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never did.

2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself.

2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes.

2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my shop some time afterwards and got the cash.

2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry [produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. £4.'

2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only transaction in which £4 was paid in cash.

2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the line is not here.

2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the money?-Yes.

2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. £4?'-Yes.

2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,' were inserted when the money was given?-Yes

2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at first?-No; the book was not being dated then.

2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the numbers of the lines in the book.

2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th October.

2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October when the line was first given out?-Yes.

2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount supplied to her was £3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash which she got from me.

2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?- Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound.

2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused the cash that was asked for by her.

2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are some who got a good deal more cash than she did.

2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her, and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise. As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more cash than Sandison did.

2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30, 1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18, cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.; November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing has gone on.

2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town.

2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day.

2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no recollection of doing it.

2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No.

2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to herself.

2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?- Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance, they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive it.

2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case like that?-I don't know.

2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of these women, we marked it down as having been paid.

2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair herself?-I cannot recollect.

2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that. There was no compact about in between me and the man who supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in cash.

2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I cannot remember them.

2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being frequent.

2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it to.

2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at all?-The majority of them have.

2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any objection to them, of course they get some explanation.

2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?- Yes.

2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep them.

2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in, which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get.

2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies them.

2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes.

2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday. [Produces copy account.]

2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted, although that does not appear in her account.

2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for sale or exchange?-Yes.

2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect, that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it out ourselves for work that we required.

2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may, or they may not.

2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody, but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter in order to accommodate them.

2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes.

2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing.

2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?- No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls. 'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls.

2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only bring it in for our own use

2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes.

2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it for any particular purpose.

2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way.

2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade.

2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they can return it.

2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it would put a stop to their business.

2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for their own use and also for sale.

2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid for it in cash.

2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of it overhead.

2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and the knitters buy it from them.

2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that girl Robertson.

[Page 53]

2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt with her in rather an exceptional way.

2484. I see '12 cuts worsted:' is that what you refer to?-There is more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16, 1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts; and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her.

2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth Robertson?-Yes; exactly.

2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been given?-Yes.

2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly.

2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to favour her that I did it.

2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person, and she pleaded for it.

2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her.

2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never employed by me specially.

2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she was due me £4, 16s. 31/2d.

2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid off that balance with the exception about £1?-Yes. Then she said in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take them, but the reverse.

2494. She got them on credit?-Yes.

2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a reason for her getting the goods.

2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this account?-Because it is in my books.

2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts entered in your books were those who were employed by you as knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books.

2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?- No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been transferred to the work-book.

2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and then in the other.

2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for him.

2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to these two items of it.

2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line [showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I have also got a line in these

'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s.
'R. SINCLAIR & CO.
'J.J.B.
'22. 12. 71.'

Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a good many.

2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women would only take the value out at once; but when they have bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want the goods.

2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X.

2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because, when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we could not begin with again.

2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?- Yes, and went on to Z.

2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?- Yes.

2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again.

2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes.

2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I think; but it may be more.

2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about that.

2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea, within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?- Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very often.

2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods, or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it.

2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such lines had been given.

2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them.

2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for their value.

[Page 54]

2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with them if we could.

2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the only way I know.

2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother.

2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any rate.

2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the real price would be less.

2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very least we could for the article in cash.

2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should expect to get, and would get, for it.

2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were £1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south.