Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (36)

9602. But not enough to keep a man going with his family?-No. I made some money in Australia, and that is what keeps me going.

9603. But the men do not catch enough fish in winter and spring to keep their wives and families?-No. There are sometimes weeks when they can get none at all, the weather is often so stormy.

9604. If you have been in Australia, you know that there are storms elsewhere as well as here?-In Scotland they fish along the coast, but they have better boats and there are vessels always passing, while here there are currents from the Gulf Stream which would frighten any man.

9605. You think they have not so good boats here?-They have not, but they work them wonderfully, and they sometimes frighten me when I come across them.

9606. Have you any idea why it is that these men come to you for credit instead of going to the merchants to whom they sell their fish?-Of course they cannot all deal in one place.

9607. But would they not get their credit much easier from the merchant who is to receive their fish?-They might get it from him, but perhaps they might have the same reason that the man had when he was courting; one man might like me whilst others might not. They might take fancies of that kind.

9608. Do you sell your goods at a lower price than the large merchants?-I cannot say I do. I sell as low as I can, and if I was not selling reasonably low I could not carry on at all.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON examined.

9609. You are a fisherman at Mid Yell?-Yes. I go to the whaling and sealing.

9610. You hold a bit of land here?-Yes.

9611. Do you also go to the ling fishing?-Yes, when I am at home any time; but I generally go to the whaling.

9612. Do you go to Lerwick for an engagement?-Yes. I generally engage through Messrs. Hay.

9613. Do you get your month's wages in advance?-Yes; it is paid down in cash at the Custom House.

9614. You also get an allotment note?-Yes. I leave it with Messrs. Hay, and then they supply my family with what they require.

9615. Does your wife live at Mid Yell when you are away?-Yes.

9616. How does she get her supplies from Lerwick?-She sends an order down to them, and they send her up what she requires by the steamer.

9617. Is that the only account you keep?-That the only account I keep with them; but I keep some accounts with other men.

9618. Do you keep an account with the merchant for whom you go to the ling fishing afterwards?-Yes.

9619. When you come home from Greenland you settle with Messrs. Hay at the Custom House?-Yes, as soon as I come home.

9620. You did not use to do that formerly?-No; we always used to settle in the office.

9621. When you settled in the office, the amount of your account was deducted from what you were to get?-Yes; but what money we had to get was paid down to us in cash.

9622. But now you get all your money except what you have got in the ship, and the first month's advance?-Yes.

9623. And with the balance you walk down to Hay & Co.'s office and pay off their account?-Yes.

9624. I suppose you just go down with the clerk who has been along with you at the Custom House?-Yes.

9625. Do you always pay off their account on the same day that you are settled with?-Yes; but it only two years since we began to be paid in that way.

9626. Have you been at the whale fishing every year for some time back?-I have been eleven voyages at it but from 1852 I have been in the south as well as at Greenland, and I have been at the ling fishing too, and all sorts of trades.

9627. When is your last payment of oil-money generally settled for?-When the oil has been boiled at Dundee or Peterhead, and they know how much there is of it, the money is sent on to Lerwick. If we are there to receive it we will get it as soon as it comes and if not, it will lie until we come.

9628. Do you get it at the Custom House or Messrs. Hay's office?-If we like, we get it at the Custom House; but this year I would not go there and I got it at the office. It was at night, and we could not get access to the Custom House; but as I wanted to get clear. I was just paid at the office.

9629. Is your first payment of wages and oil-money after you come home generally made before you leave Lerwick and come to Yell?-It is now. They are very strict about that. They like you to settle up before you leave the town.

9630. What amount of cash do you generally get as the first payment on a Greenland voyage?-It depends on what kind of voyage we make. Sometimes we have very little to get. Last year I had somewhere about £10 or £12 to get for wages and the first payment of oil-money. I had taken £2, 5s. of out-takes from Messrs. Hay besides my first month's advance. That was for supplies to my family at home while I was away. I was only absent for six weeks.

9631. What ship were you in?-The 'Labrador' of London. We made a good voyage.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, DANIEL MORE, examined.

9632. You are a fisherman and tenant at Cunningster?-I am a fisherman, but not a tenant. I have got a house of my own.

9633. How long have you been there?-About two months-since Martinmas. I was at Basta before, and at Colvister, and at Basta before that.

9634. Why have you changed so often? Could you not get a bit of ground to sit upon?-I was twenty-two years at first in Basta, and then I lost my health, and I began some little business in groceries. The landlord of the ground was Mr. George Hoseason, but the tacksman was his half-brother, Mr. Hoseason of Mossbank. He thought I was doing too well in my grocery business, and taking away too much from their shop, and he put me away from there.

[Page 233]

9635. How did you know that he put you away for that reason?- Because they told me that.

9636. How long is it since that occurred?-About twelve years ago.

9637. Where did you go next?-To Colvister, where I was under Mr. William Henderson of Gloup, brother of Mr. George Henderson of Burravoe. I had a small shop there.

9638. Why did you leave that?-I left because I was not a fisherman. Mr. Henderson wanted me to go to the fishing; but as I would not he got another in my place, and thought he would make better of it.

9639. Is it usual for a proprietor to turn away a man who does not fish?-Yes. I paid £1 more than every man who fished every year since I left the fishing, except to Mr. Hoseason of Basta.

9640. Did you pay that to Mr. Henderson while you were at Colvister?-Yes.

9641. How long were you there?-Eight years.

9642. Did you pay £8 of additional rent to him during that time?- Yes. The other tenants paid £4 for the same amount of land that I paid £5 for.

9643. Did he tell you that that was because you did not fish?- Yes.

9644. Did he tell you that when you took the ground?-No; he did not say very much about it at that time.

9645. But he told you afterwards that you must pay £1 a year more if you did not fish?-Yes.

9646. Why did you leave?-I did not leave until he warned me.

9647. Why did he warn you?-Because he wanted a skipper for a boat.

9648. Where have you been since?-I was on Basta for three years.

9649. Where are you now?-On Major Cameron's property, under Mr. Walker. I have no shop there; but I have a house and a bit of ground, which I bought with money I had saved. I am not doing anything at present.

9650. Have you known many men who have been turned out of their holdings because they did not fish?-I have known a few in Yell. The proprietors of the land, if they did not fish for them, would turn them out.

9651. Is that a common understanding among the people?-Yes.

9659. Is there anything else you want to say about it?-Nothing particular, but that I know I have been harshly handled because they thought I made a living by selling some groceries and one thing and another. They did not like it very well, and in that way they turned me out of both places.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN S. HOUSTON, examined.

9653. You are parochial schoolmaster of North Yell?-I am.

9654. You have had considerable experience in the management of property?-Yes, and in dividing runrig lands.

9655. How long have you been in the country?-Between 15 and 16 years.

9656. Have you had experience as to the relations existing between proprietors of land and fish-merchants in Shetland?- A little.

9657. Would you explain the nature of the arrangements that have been made in former times, and which are now made, by which the rent of the proprietor is paid through or by the fish-merchant?-When I came to Shetland, Major Cameron's property in Yell was let to Mr. Sandison as tacksman; but when the Major came from India, the lease had expired, and he appointed me to take charge of his property. Frequently at rent time the parties had not received their money for fish, and as a necessary consequence they got lines from their curer, the sums in which were placed to their credit by Major Cameron. The sum of these lines when all was over was sent to the fish-curer, the party who gave the lines, and a cheque on the bank was given for them.

9658. Was that merely a practice resorted to for the convenience of the fishermen and the proprietor, or was there an understanding with the fish-curer that he should make these advances?-It was a convenience for all parties.

9659. You are not aware that there was any understanding between the fish-curer and the proprietor to that effect?-There was an understanding between Major Cameron and Mr. Sandison.

9660. Was Mr. Sandison the fish-curer you have referred to?- Yes, Sandison Brothers. There was an understanding that any of Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be called reckless or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their earnings, but that something should be left for their rent.

9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his fishcuring premises?-Yes.

9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they were the same. I have plenty of them at home.*

9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any other estate?-I believe it has existed but I cannot speak so positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun. before he became a partner of the Mossbank firm.

9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that, although there was no understanding on the subject, Major Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly cut-and-dry for him.

9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr. Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has not done so.

9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving lines exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.

9667. Have you had much intercourse with the fishermen in your district of the country?-Yes; I often hear their conversations.

9668. Do you know generally the way in which business is conducted in the fish trade?-I think I do.

9669. Are you aware that much complaint exists with regard to the way in which the current price for fish is fixed at the end of the season?-The fishermen, as a general rule always complain.

9670. What are the grounds of their complaint?-I think the reason why they complain is, that they believe the curers never give them so large a price as they should do. There is a sort of jealousy abroad amongst all the fishermen, which perhaps originated in formerdays, but which is still rankling in their bosoms.

9671. A jealousy of whom?-A jealousy of the fish-curers, that they don't give them fair play.

9672. Have you seen any cases where you thought they did not get fair play?-Not for some time past.

9673. Are you able to form an opinion upon the question whether the fishermen are justified in complaining of the manner in which the current price is fixed?-I think, as a general rule, they are not. I know practically, from curers books that I had access to, that the current price is fairly fixed.

9674. Have you been employed as an [Page 234] accountant?- No; but I have had confidence placed in me, and I have seen their books.

9675. Have you any means of knowing whether there are more prices than one for the fish, according to the market to which they are sent?-I am aware that each curer does not receive the same price. There are exceptions to the rule. Some send their fish direct to the foreign market, and some sell to a home firm, who require something for their risk and trouble.

9676. Do you think the present system of distant payments for the fish could be altered, and a better one introduced?-I don't well see how it could be altered for the benefit of the fishermen.

9677. Is that on account of the bad seasons which occur occasionally?-Not altogether on account of the bad season, but it suits them better. Many of them prefer to leave their money with their curer until they require it for their rents.

9678. They prefer him to act as their banker?-Exactly.

9679. Is it not the case that many fishermen who ask advances from their curers before the fishing season begins, or during its course, are really capitalists with considerable sums in the bank?-I am not aware of any case of that kind, but I know plenty of fishermen who have money in the bank. I should say that the system would perhaps be more healthy if the fishermen were paid when the fishing was over. That would remove many grievances now complained of.

9680. Do you think they should be paid in July or August?-In the end of August.

9681. But if they were paid then they might get a lower price than the fish-merchants eventually got?-They would have to be paid at a rate by which the curer would be certain to be safe as his fish had not gone to market, and they did not know what they would realize; but the same holds good on the coast of Scotland in the herring fishing.

9682. Would the fishermen, so far as you know them, be content with a system of that sort?-I cannot say; I rather think not.

9683. Do you think they would like to have the chance of a larger price?-They would engage just now for the next season if they were satisfied that they would realize 1s. more than the market would afford them at Martinmas.

9684. But they would not engage otherwise?-No.

9685. Do you think they would endeavour to get quit of such a bargain if the price at Martinmas should turn out to be higher than what they had agreed for the commencement of the season?- Attempts are made of that nature in their dealings in the selling of cattle.

9686. Are cattle sometimes sold according to a current price at a later period?-Cattle are sometimes bought during the spring. If not bought then, they are sold by auction at fixed sales in May, and in the mainland they have a Martinmas sale for fat cattle.

9687. But they are sometimes sold before these sales?-They are sold in spring to parties going through the district seeking cattle to buy; and during the last season the prices were so very high at the spring sales, that I know parties who had sold their cattle before, and then came back upon the purchaser asking him for the currency of the sale, although their animals had been sold months before.

9688. Did they get what they asked?-In one case they did.

9689. Was that from a proprietor?-No.

9690. Does the practice of marking the horns of cattle exist in Yell?-It does.

9691. In what circumstances is that done?-If a tenant becomes indebted to me and cannot pay me in cash, he offers me one of his cattle and to make sure of it I cut the initials of my name on its horns.

9692. Are you assuming that you are the landlord?-It does not matter whether I am the landlord or not. I may be a merchant, and it is the merchants who do it; the landlord does not require to do it, because the hypothec protects him.

9693. But the merchant takes his chance of the landlord's hypothec interfering with him?-Yes.

9694. If a merchant marks a beast in that way, is it generally exposed at the next periodical sale?-Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is taken away at a price fixed upon at the time. If not, it is sold, and the merchant gets his money.

9695. Do you think the debtor in that case has perfect freedom in fixing the price?-Both parties fix it.

9696. But do you think the debtor is under no constraint?-None. Arbitration would decide it.

9697. Arbitration might decide it, but is arbitration resorted to?- Sometimes. A person understood to be qualified puts a value upon the cattle, or the currency at which such animals are selling at that time is taken.

9698. It has been alleged that when merchants got people deeply in debt they mark their cattle, and they can take them at any price they choose: is that so?-I have never seen a case of that kind. Such a practice may have existed 20 or 30 years ago, but I am entirely ignorant of it. I may further state something which was not exactly implied in your questions, but which in the south is generally misunderstood. As a general rule, the fishermen get one-third of the selling price of the fish. Fish dry in 5-9ths-that is 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. dry, fit for the market,-and it is understood that the curer pays one-third; but when the price may be £20 and upwards, he pays more than one-third of the selling prices. When the price is £14 or £15 he can only afford to pay one-third, the expenses being the same per ton for curing at the high price as at the low price. Suppose he sells his fish at £20 per ton, he pays his fishermen £7; 21/4 times 7 are £15, 15s. The curing of that ton of fish costs him £2, 10s., that is £18, 5s., leaving him £1, 15s. to pay for his salt, to transport them to his store, and ship them on board a vessel, and to pay their freight to Leith. Hence it follows that the fish-curer has very little profit indeed.

9699. Upon what data is that conclusion of yours rounded?-Upon facts which I know with regard to the prices paid by curers.

9700. Do you know the price of the salt and the expenses of curing, through the curers themselves?-The fixed price for curing has always been 50s.

9701. That is the price which they charge?-That is the price which a party would charge a curer for curing his fish.

9702. That would be for salting and curing?-They would salt them, but the salt belongs to the curer.

9703. But the price of the salt is included in the 50s.?-No. I have my information from a curer of long standing, but who is not now in the trade.

9704. Have you any information to give with regard to the obligations of fishermen upon other estates in Shetland to fish for the landlords?-I have had a good deal to do with the property of Simbister, on which there were no tenants bound to fish, except those belonging to the Coningsburgh district, who were under tack to Mouat. Their leases bound them to do so; but, on the expiry of that lease, Mr. Bruce did not intend to let any of his lands again after that fashion. To my knowledge he refused to let them to a party who would have been a good tenant.

9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to us when you settle, the document according to which you have sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the fishermen actually complain.

9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of sale?-I think they are entitled to see them.

[Page 235]

9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for they are risking the market as well as the curer.

9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally. Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout Shetland.

9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the last five, and more especially during the last three years. The prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price of fish has also improved.

9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be.

9711. Prices may fall?-They may.

9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble, and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr. Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or anything of that sort.

9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated.

9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole, to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists.

9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them which was worth its value in cash.

9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell for yarn?-They must do it.

9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here have two prices.

9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some time ago.

9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in many other places.

9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do.

9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to 80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence.

9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods.

9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely be called <bona fide> hosiery merchants. They are generally people who sell for some one in the country, sometimes as a favour, and sometimes for commission.

9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes grocers.

9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him.

9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That, however, I looked upon as an exception.

9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to Whalsay?-Yes.

9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one.

9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly before?-It was just dying out.**

[Page 236]

9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They were in similar terms to the following:-

'CULLIVOE, 8<th Dec>. 1864. '£7, 0s. 7d.

'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of ' SANDISON BROTHERS.'

**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and <arrears> of long standing, and the dividing and renting of farms, and other unavoidable accompaniments, placed me as a temporary link between landlord and tenant, and tended to give me a knowledge of Shetland affairs in general, as existing between landlord and tenant, between fish-curer and fishermen, and between merchant and customer. Although the dividing and letting of farms may not be considered relevant to the present inquiry into the truck system, I hold a <decidedly opposite opinion>. No doubt poverty is the foundation upon which the truck system has been reared, and may justly be called its <foster> parent; and the origin may be traced, very clearly too, to the subdividing of farms, it being the interest of the landlord-curer to accommodate as many fishermen as possible. In many districts, and on small properties where the landlord is storekeeper and curer, that system is still upheld, and <fostered> with pious care; while on many of the larger properties the proprietors are endeavouring to abolish it. The islands being over-populated, and the farms so insignificantly small, it follows as a result that the inhabitants have to depend on external aid, and throw themselves, although reluctantly it may be, into the arms of a system which, however honestly conducted, has a tendency to hamper their movements, to bereave them of independence, and to plunge parents and their children into debt, out of which they may never be able to extricate themselves. There is an antidote, but its application would require to be a work of <time>.

<Fishcurer and Fishermen>.

In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the curer could well afford; but at same time I <do not> consider the curer is acting judiciously. Under the present arrangement of prices, I can only view the curer and his fishermen in the light of a joint-stock company. The curer supplies boats and lines directly or indirectly. The fishermen give their labour and risk their lives, and when the summer fishing closes, the part the fishermen play in the speculation terminates. The curer prepares the fish for the market, disposes of them, and receives the cash. As the price to be paid to the fishermen is regulated by the market price, I consider it the bounden duty of the curer to lay before the fishermen, at settling, the <missive of sale>, that document being the common property of <both parties>, and more especially as three-fourths at least of the cash realized is understood to belong to the men. <That>, however, <is not the practice>; and hence the fishermen, naturally jealous, and still wincing under the scars of former years, are never satisfied; and I consider the curer in acting thus is reprehensible, and the fishermen justified in complaining, even when the curer is a sufferer. Were it made penal on the part of the curer to treat the bargain so, there would be less injustice done to himself, and less suspicion thrown around his integrity. Since the truck uproar has spread its wings on the Shetland blast, and breathed offensively in the faces even of Her Majesty's Government, it has been suggested by strangers that curers should pay their fishermen each time fish was delivered. That mode would not be advantageous to the fishermen. It would suit their interests better to be paid at the close of the fishing, on the same principle as is done by those engaged in the seal trade. At every station during the summer fishing there is a 'beach price,' and if that price was paid for the summer's catch at the close of the fishing it would put the fishermen in a position of buying with <cash> instead of being dependent on their curer's store for months after the fishing had closed. The residue of the price, which would be a mere trifle, would be paid them when the fish was sold, and the price known, on the same principle as 'oil-money' in the seal trade. I have no doubt whatever but such a mode, if adopted, would tend to put a stop to the present and <necessary> facilities of drawing so largely upon the curer's store. The fisherman who has neither money nor <credit> must go to his curer's store, as he has no other alternative; but were he put in possession of his earnings at the close of the fishing, <truck> for a time would disappear from his individual horizon. I may mention that the hosier referred to in my evidence as having paid £90 in cash in a year to a party in the country for hosiery and yarn was Mr. Robert Linklater, Lerwick; and I may further state that I have known Mr. Robert Sinclair give £15 once on a £20 transaction of hosiery, etc.

BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872.

<Present>-MR. GUTHRIE.

JOAN OGILVY, examined.

9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times with worsted from other people.

9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I have made has been for other people.

9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I have knitted that and sold the hosiery.

9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut for it in cash.

9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in money?-I never asked it.

9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling your hosiery?-No.

9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes, goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and other things.

9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I get 1s. 6d. for each of them.

9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the shawl: it was merely for the knitting.

9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because it was not the custom to give it.

9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but goods?-I get cash at times.

9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.

9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it, but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.

9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.

9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.

9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?- Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash for it.

9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not ask for it in that way.

9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got money?-I think so.

9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s. 6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.

9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.

9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little cheaper.

9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even with the goods payment.

9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.

9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got 30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to work them. She paid me for these in cash.

9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.

9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took a little goods for, just as suited myself.

9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.

9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.

9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They were women's cloth jackets.

9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.

9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.

9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.

9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.

9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.

9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.

9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.

9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account for me herself.

9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.

9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no lines from her.

9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and you don't need them?-I suppose so.

9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get them?-Yes, I get them from her.

9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times, but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us. The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.

9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she balances now and then?-Yes.

9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often. I have not had a great deal of goods from her.

9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not think of keeping an account of it.

9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little more.

9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.

9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?- It was for knitting.

9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and partly for other things.

9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask them; but when I ask for cash I get it.

9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to me because she knew I could not do without it.

9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very good articles.

9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.

9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be paid in cash for it?-Yes.

9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?- No, it is not less.

9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.

9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr. Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.

9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.

9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.

9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.

9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.

9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest, and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON, examined.

9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is given out to me.

9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.

9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.

9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.

9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.

9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co., and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.

9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.

9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps once a month; just when my work is finished.

9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s. to 12s.

9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never bought any myself.

9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.

9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way there, in goods.

9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.

9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you want?-Yes.

9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.

9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.

9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at Haroldswick?-Yes.

9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.

9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s. 5d. just now.

9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.

9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.

9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid 6d. a yard for it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.

9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.

9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone of Buness.

9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.

9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page 238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr. David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.

9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.

9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr. Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.

9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.

9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe I can.

9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr. John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell any to him.

9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and settle with them every winter?-Yes.

9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled about 10th January at Haroldswick.

9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.

9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.

9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.

9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.

9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.

9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.

9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some member of my family brought them home.

9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes; when the account is read over to me I can.

9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know the price of it?-Yes.

9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time when you buy it?-Yes.

9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a very little which we may buy from some other shop.

9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very little.

9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.

9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.

9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.

9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am not able to say what they do.

9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I cannot say.

9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr. Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.

9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.

9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.

9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?- Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is generally unbleached cotton that we buy.

9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.

9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.

9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them against you?-Yes.

9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I suppose; but I don't know anything about that.

9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.

9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.

9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.

9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present, and it has been against me since the first year of the company in consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.

9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line, according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and a line for a buoy rope.

9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.

9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man for what we call a weight of lines.

9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in our favour, or against us, as case may be.

9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.

9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them by instalments?-No.

9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the lines are really good, they may do for four.