Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (32)

8470. Have they not been any better off in that way?-If the fish-curers had been agreeable to them doing that, they would have made a little off it. They would have saved, perhaps, a few pounds on the ton, but they could not find booths in which to put their fish at the season when they require to be housed. They had to pay cellar rent to the parties to whom the booths belonged.

8471. Could they sell their fish at as good a price as the curers could?-No. They could not seek out for purchasers in the south country as the curers can do, and they were obliged to sell their fish to the Shetland merchants and at the price which was current here.

8472. Don't you think the men would be better off if they could get payment for their fish earlier in the season, and could go and deal at any store they liked for their goods?-I don't know that that would be any advantage to them, because they know by experience that their earnings are very small, and they could not afford to take them in that way. They must try to save their earnings for their rents, and for the maintenance of their families.

8473. But if they got their money in their hand, instead of running an account, would they not make a better use of it?-I don't know. Some of them might be inclined to do so and some not.

8474. Might they not buy their goods cheaper if they had the money to pay for them?-Some of them might, but some of them might spend their money very carelessly.

8475. Did you hear what Gilbert Scollay said about getting meal cheaper in the south than it can be got here?-We all know that that is the case.

8476. Have any of you tried to get it in that way?-No.

8477. Why?-From want of knowledge. We don't know where to go in order to find the cheapest market for meal.

8478. But Gilbert Scollay found out where to go and he would have told you?-Gilbert Scollay might have done that, but we never like to deal in the kind of meal which he bought.

8479. You could have got any sort of meal if you had asked it?- Yes, he would have got any sort.

8480. And so would you if you had gone to the right quarter. Don't you think if a lot of you now were to agree to buy meal from a man in the south, and were getting the price of your fish in cash, so that you could pay for the meal in cash, you would be able to make a better thing of it?-There is no mistake about that.

8481. What is to hinder a boat's crew or two from agreeing to bring their own meal from the south?-The fish-curer must supply them with money before they could do that.

8482. Will not the curer advance money to the men if they want it?-It would just be at his own option.

8483. Do you think the fish-curer would not give you the money before the end of the season?-I don't know, I never asked it, and what a man has not asked he cannot speak to at all.

8484. Do you think he would be likely to do it?-The merchants might do it to some, and to some they would not. They could not be expected to do it to a man who was indebted to them; but if a man was clear with them, they might have no objections to advance the money.

8485. I suppose it would not be easy to find a boat's crew where some of the men were not in debt?-I think there are a good few boats' crews of that kind.

8486. Could not a boat's crew, where none of the men were in debt, get their money in that way?-Certainly they could if they wished it.

8487. And they could import their meal from the south if they found it any cheaper?-Perhaps they could.

8488. Do any of your people knit or weave?-They do.

8489. Are they paid for their work in the way which Mrs. Williamson and Mrs. Johnston have described?-Yes.

8490. They are paid mostly in goods?-They can take either goods or money, because they are not in debt to any man.

8491. Do you keep an account with any merchant?-No; I keep the family accounts.

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8492. Do you keep them all in one?-Yes.

8493. Is that a common way at Muckle Roe?-I think it is, and I think it is the best way.

8494. Have you sometimes taken their webs to sell to the merchants?-Yes, I have sometimes done so.

8495. Have you ever got money for a web?-Yes, if I wanted it.

8496. But did you ever get it?-I have. I have got £4 at a time, when the web was worth it.

8497. Was that long ago?-It was this very year.

8498. Did you get it all in money?-Yes.

8499. Was that at Voe?-No, it was at Brae from Mr. Inkster.

8500. Did you ever get as much money before for any web?-No, I don't think so.

8501. Were you paid mostly in goods before?-No, not altogether in goods. If I did not require the goods, I could have it in money, because if I was not in debt to them they were obliged to pay me the money.

8502. Were they always obliged to pay money for webs?-Yes, to men who were clear with them, and who would not take their wool from them.

8503. But a man who was not clear would not get all money?- No, he could not expect it.

8504. The price of his cloth would be put to his account?-Yes.

8505. And he might get a little money if he wanted it?-Yes. I never knew a merchant to refuse a man a little money if he was in need of it.

8506. But the man had to tell the merchant that he was in need of it?-Yes, if he was in need, he had to explain that to him.

8507. If a man was in debt to a merchant, and wanted to get money for his web, could he not take it to another merchant?-Yes; but it would not be very fair to do so. A man who is in debt to another ought always to pay his debt when he can.

8508. But he might pay it at another time and he might be wanting the money for his own immediate needs?-Such cases as that might occur, but not very often.

8509. You think the people round about you don't often do that?- I don't think they do.

Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, examined.

8510. Are you a fisherman and farmer near Brae?-Yes, about a mile or a mile and a half north from this.

8511. Have you a good bit of land?-Yes, just about as big as most of the people have hereabouts-a small allotment.

8512. Have you got a brother in Ollaberry?-I have a brother-in- law there, and a cousin, William Blanch.

8513. Have you been present to-day?-Not all the time. I have been here for about an hour.

8514. Have you heard the description which has been given of how the fishermen are settled with for their accounts?-Yes. I was present at the first meeting which was held at Brae.

8515. Do you settle in the same way as you have heard described?-Yes, much in the same way; but I am a Faroe fisherman, and I have been so for the last twelve years.

8516. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

8517. Who do you ship with?-I have been employed by Mr. Adie's firm for the last five years. Before that I went out from Lerwick. I went for Mr. Sutherland, and then for Mr. George Reid Tait.

8518. You settle every year in the winter?-Yes, or sometimes twice in one year, but not often.

8519. You get supplies, as a rule, from the merchant in whose smack you go to the fishing?-Yes, we get that if we require them.

8520. But, as a rule, do you get your supplies from that merchant?-As a rule we do, but there are exceptions. For my own part, I have never been under the necessity of taking out supplies unless I chose; but, generally speaking, I have taken them out, especially stores required for our own use in the vessel.

8521. And when anything is required for the man's family at home during the season, is it generally got from the same merchant?-It may be. In most cases,, I think, that would be the case; but, for my own part, was not bound to do that, because at the time of settlement I had always something to take, and I could deal where I chose.

8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for men to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put my money into his shop, and I have done so, although I have never been obligated to do it.

8523. Are some of the men obligated to do that?-I think they are obligated, for this reason, that they could scarcely help themselves. Perhaps they had not the money to purchase their goods elsewhere, and they were bound for that reason from a selfish motive.

8524. You think they could not get credit elsewhere?-Yes. Some of them I know could not get it elsewhere. Perhaps some of them could.

8525. But the merchant who employs men at the Faroe fishing is generally ready to give credit to a man who is in these circumstances, and who does not have money?-Of course he does. He understands he has that to do. They make advances, perhaps before, but as soon as the men engage to go to the fishing. It may be about this time, or it may be a month previous to this, when they make the engagement to go.

8526. And they made an advance then either in cash or in out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They may give 8s. or 10s. in cash, but unless they know the man is to be depended upon I don't think they will give much more. They may give man until he has made some earning by his fishing; but unless it is a case where they know it can be paid back again by the man otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of his stock for instance, he may have some other means. For my own part, of course, I was always so far able to pay my account, and I never had need to ask for money. I can only speak to that from personal experience; but I have known men who sailed with me for eight or nine years, and I know they have got a little money, perhaps 10s. or £1, at a time when they required it.

8527. Although they were bound?-I did not know about their being bound. I would not say much about that. I daresay some of them would be bound, and some of them were not.

8528. Have you ever known men being bound when, they engaged to a merchant?-No. I may have heard about it, but I could not show it by proof.

8529. Have you heard of men who are obligated, as you said, to engage with it particular merchant for the fishing because they were in his debt?-No; I could not say definitely as to that.

8530. Have you had an idea or it notion that a man might have engaged for that reason?-Yes; I have had that idea, and I have been told so by men themselves, but these men are not here, and I could not say that it was actually the case. For my own part, I have never been in these circumstances.

8531. Have you ever considered whether you would be better under any other arrangement than making settlement at the end of the year for the Faroe fishing?-I have considered that matter, and I have often thought that we might have been better than we are under the present state of matters. That may have been partly our own blame, in consequence of the want of information among the fishermen; but I have often thought, and I think so still, that we don't have that fair play which we ought to have. I think the present system is almost, if not altogether, a one-sided arrangement for the merchant. That is my opinion with regard to the Faroe fishing, and the ling fishers say the [Page 207] same. We don't know what we are to get until the end of the season. We go and toil away and catch fish if we can, but we don't know what we are to get for them until the time of settlement. There is an arrangement made between the fish-curers or merchants, and by that time they have made up their minds, and have fixed upon certain price, while we under our agreement have just to take what they please to give us. Our understanding is that the crew get one-half of the nett, and the fish-merchant or curer gets the other half for his vessel. Of course, the salt and the expenses of curing deducted, and the master's and mate's extra, and the score money.

8532. There are some deductions before you come to the nett?- Yes; we don't get one half of the gross; we only get one-half of the nett. There is allowance for salt and curing, which is generally £2, 10s., and I think it could be done cheaper, but that may be our own blame. Then there is the master's extra and the mate's extra, which is a fee of so much per ton to each, according as the agreement is made.

8533. What other deduction is there?-There is score-money, and there may be the expense of bringing the fish to market.

8534. Is that a deduction, or does it not come off the merchant's half of the nett?-I don't know exactly how that is done. We never see the account sales of the fish, although we ought to see them, but that may be our own blame too.

8535. You don't know whether the merchant gets commission of 5 per cent?-I have been told so by one merchant that I was employed by, Mr. Grierson. I never was told that by any other merchant for whom I was employed, but Mr. Grierson told me that was actually so in his case.

8536. You are a skipper, and you actually don't know how the deductions are made which come off before the nett produce is halved?-Of course I have asked about these things, and I have been told that there were no other deductions taken off beyond what have mentioned.

8537. Do you have nothing to do with the making of these deductions yourself?-No.

8538. You have nothing to do with the weighing of the fish, nor with the selling of them?-No; nor with making a market for them.

8539. But you think you might be more fairly dealt with than you are?-I think we might. I don't know whether that is altogether the merchant's blame, but think we could have a fairer understanding, for two reasons: In the first place, we ought to have an understanding when we start or engage that we are to have a certain fixed price for our fish, the same as the Englishmen have. They know what they are to get before their fish are caught.

8540. Where do these Englishmen fish?-They are in smacks that come from London and Grimsby and Hull and Berwick, and they fish for curers in Shetland, and land their fish here.

8541. Have these men all an agreement for a fixed price?-So far as I understand, they have. At least I have been told so by themselves.

8542. These men have a fixed agreement with the curers here to whom they sell?-Yes. Of course, their men are not paid in the same way as we are. The men on board these vessels, except the masters, are paid by weekly wages.

8543. And the master makes a bargain with the merchant here about the fish?-I rather think it is the owner who makes the bargain.

8544. Do you know the nature of the bargain they make?-I cannot say that I know definitely. I know the merchant here agrees to pay them a fixed price when the fish are landed in a dry state. They are salted on board the vessels, and they get £10, £11, or £12 a ton for salted fish when landed. They know they are to get that before the fish are caught, and they cannot expect anything more. Now; I say we ought to have something like that, and then we would know what we were actually working for. It might be that in that way we would get less than we do present, but we would have a fair understanding. If we lost in one year, we might gain in another.

8545. Do you think the men in Shetland, generally speaking, would be inclined to consent to a bargain of that sort? Would they not grumble very much if the price rose considerably before the end of the season?-It would only be parties who were dull of apprehension that would be likely to grumble. It would not be the intelligent men. For my part, and so far as my experience goes, I don't think a man of intelligence and experience would have a right to grumble in that case and I don't think he would do so. There are a great many I have spoken to, and reasoned the matter with, who, I don't think, would grumble.

8546. Do you think the fishermen, under such a system, would have the same advantage at the beginning of the season in making a bargain as the masters would have? Would the masters not be likely to know better what the market price was likely to be towards the end of the season, and thus be able to make a calculation as to the price more in their own favour?-The merchants ought, from their position, to have more information as to the probable state of the market, and, a rule, they do have more information; but I believe there are not a few masters of Faroe fishing vessels who could make as good a market, or nearly as good a market, as the curers could.

8547. You think they have all the information necessary to guide them in making a good bargain in the beginning of the season, or just as much as the curers have?-Yes. A curer would just be as likely to make a mistake in his arrangements as I would be. The market is so fluctuating that it is possible a curer may go and make a loss. He might possibly make an arrangement with another merchant to sell his fish at a certain fixed price, and there is a possibility of the fish rising after that, and of course I would stand the same chance.

8548. Do you say that in the English vessels the fish is salted before it is put on shore?-Yes.

8549. Is that the case in your smacks also?-Yes; we are always bound to do that. We could not keep the fish otherwise. When fishing on the coast of Faroe or Iceland, or elsewhere, we cannot help ourselves; we must salt them in order to save them.

8550. Is the salt put on board the vessel, and supplied by the fish-curer at starting?-Yes.

8551. You said you thought 50s. a ton was rather too high a charge for salting and curing: is that your opinion?-I am inclined to think so. I know the price of salt as well as the curers do. I have been in the habit of buying salt at Liverpool more than two or three times, and I know what I have paid for it, buying it with ready money. The last cargo of salt which I brought here cost 7s. per ton, when ready to leave Liverpool, and the freight here would be 10s. Then there would be 1s. per ton for landing, at least. Then there would be 2s. for wastage and they might take off 1s. or 2s. more for cellar rent. That would be 22s.

8552. Would that be the total cost of the salt delivered in Shetland?-It might vary; but that is what I paid for it the last time I bought a cargo.

8553. Do you think 22s. is a liberal calculation for it?-I think so. Then the people have to be paid for curing, that is, washing and drying the fish, and I think they generally pay at least 12s. per ton, or in some cases more, for that. I have never cured fish myself, but I have been told by curers that that is about the expense.

8554. That would be 12s. for the workpeople employed at the curing; but you would also require some allowance for implements and sheds and booths?-No doubt an allowance would require to be made for that too. In some cases a man may be curing fish where he has to provide a booth for himself, and he has to get covering from the fish-curer or merchant. That, however, would only be a trifle.,

8555. Would 3s. a ton be too much for that?-As rule, I think it would not.

8556. Would it be too little?-I think it would not be too little; I think it would fully meet it.

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8557. Would there be any other expense for the curing of the fish?-Not so far as the curing is concerned.

8558. You say the charge for curing is 50s.?-Yes. I have paid my share of it at that rate, and I have sometimes paid for it at the rate of 52s. 6d., but it has been less than 50s. in my experience. At one time it was 45s., but of late years it has never been less than 50s.

8559. The calculation which you have made comes so that you think the fish-curer makes a profit of 13s. per ton upon the curing: is that your opinion?-My opinion is just exactly as I have stated it. It is possible I may be wrong in some of the items, because in some cases the merchant may have to give the curer more. It may be a late season, or a wet season, and in order to get the fish dried and ready for market it is possible they might encourage the curer, by giving him 1s. or 2s. more.

8560. The expense might be more than 37s. a ton in some cases?-It might be.

8561. But you think that 37s. a ton is a fair enough calculation, so far as you can make it, for the usual expenses of salting and curing?-I think so.

8562. Do you think fishermen could cure for themselves upon a small scale?-It might not be easy to get a crew together which could do that, but I think it could be done. I do not see why the master of a Faroe fishing vessel could not get a man to cure his fish as well as another man. There are often beaches that he could get the use of for the time being, and I think it is quite possible they could get their fish cured, but there may be some difficulty about it. It might be that every person would not be able to do it.

8563. You do not know whether that has been tried?-I do not. For my own part, I never attempted it.

8564. Do you think the system of running accounts among the Faroe fishermen you have met with has led them to incur too large amounts of debt?-I am inclined to think so.

8565. Is that one of your reasons for wishing to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-That would be one of the special reasons, but it is not the whole reason. I have another reason for that, which is, that as the system exists now, if the merchant makes a good bargain or a good market for his fish, and the man he sells them to does not fail before the price is payable, the merchant never loses, because he never pays the price to us before then which he can afford to pay. He is always secure; but if he had a fixed price to pay for the fish; he might lose as quick as I would. That is my main reason for objecting to this system. I would like to have the thing altered so that there might be something like fair play, and that if I lose, I lose, and that if I gain, I gain. I am not saying that the merchant is not paying me a fair price now. He may be paying me all he can afford to pay, but I don't know that.

8566. But by the system you propose, the price might be lower than is sufficient for your labour?-I would have to take my chance of that. In my experience I have had to contend with three all but total failures at the fishing, and of course our labour and time went for almost nothing. But that was not the owner's blame; we could not help it, and no more could he.

8567. Is there any other plan for the payment of fish that has occurred to you? How would it do, for instance, if a certain part of the price per cwt. were arranged to be paid on delivery of the green fish, and that the rest, whatever it might be, should be paid at settlement according to the current price?-I could scarcely speak with regard to green fish, because my experience has been in salted fish, and I would only like to speak about that with which I have been myself more immediately connected. But speaking with regard to salted fish only, what you have suggested would be a far better way, because I would then have a chance of seeing my fish weighed out. I don't think the merchant has cheated me out of a ton or half a ton of fish, but I have not had the chance of seeing my fish weighed when I was there. Each vessel's catch is kept and cured separately; but when we come to deliver the fish, if we had a chance of seeing it weighed then, and got a certain figure for it, that would be exactly the way in which these Englishmen deal. They see their fish weighed, and they know what they are getting for each ton or each cwt. of it, and they have nothing more to expect. But we don't do that; we get the dried fish price.

8568. Do you know how much green fish makes a cwt. of dry?-I know that about 21/4 cwt. is the general rate allowed in the ling fishing for green fish, but if it is good fish it will not require so much as that I have helped to cure myself, but it may be as much as that with bad fish. As to salted fish, I could not say definitely what is the proportion.

8569. There is no such calculation required in the Faroe fishing?- No; it does not come so immediately under my notice. I never saw my fish weighed dry; I have seen them occasionally weighed wet, but not often.

8570. Are they occasionally weighed wet in the Faroe fishing?- Sometimes, not often. It is done perhaps on shore or on board, as it happens. Suppose we land them at a different station from what we intended, they are counted out and weighed when sold, and then the owner or fish-curer will know what they can turn out when dry. That is the reason why they are weighed.

8571. Then there must be a calculation made in that case?-There is, but I do not know exactly what it is.

8572. To go back to your calculation about the expense of curing fish, can you tell me how much salt is required to cure a ton of fish?-We generally reckon upon a ton of salt to a ton of dry fish. If the salt is well cared for it will do a little more but we generally reckon upon that as an average.

8573. Is the salt which the fish get all put on them before they are put on shore?-Yes; it is all put on. There is none put on afterwards, except it may be in the case of a few fish which are likely to give way, or when we get fish and have not enough salt, but that is a case of emergency and an exception-not the rule. As a rule, we cure our fish and put all the salt on them they require.

8574. Have you any knowledge of the system of payment in the ling fishing?-Only from what I have heard about it. I have been at it only once when I was a lad; and I cannot say much about it from experience.

8575. Do you think your neighbours are generally quite at liberty to deal with any merchant they please in the ling fishing?-I believe they are at perfect liberty so far as any man is concerned who could stand in a position like me, and be able to pay his way at any time; but I think a man who could not pay his way, and who was always in debt, would not be at liberty to go where he chose. I am not sure that even he would not be at liberty to use his own judgment, and deal where he liked; but I don't know that he would be looked well upon if he went to another. That is to say, if he was in debt £10 or £20 to a merchant, I don't think the merchant would look well upon it if the man went to another merchant to whom he owed nothing, and fished for him. At least that is what they have told me, and what I have known; but, of course, a man who can pay his way, and who is not bound to fish for a certain individual, can do as he likes. There are fishermen in other parts of the country who are bound to fish for their landowner or their factor, but that does not exist here.

8576. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I don't think there is anything about any matter with which I am immediately connected. We used to make a little Shetland cloth, but I could only corroborate the evidence that has been already given about that. I have never been under the necessity of selling it to a particular party, and I have got the money for it when I asked it. I don't know that the same price is always given in money as when it is taken in goods; but if I needed money, and asked for it, I always got it.

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8577. Then you have no objection to the practice which exists with regard to the hosiery trade?-No; I would not say anything about that.

8578. Have you any objection to what is done in the cloth trade?- It is the cloth trade I mean. Of course the knitting is a thing that I am not immediately connected with; there is not much done in that way with me. I know, however, that in some cases, although perhaps not in all, where women have been knitting hosiery, and they have got a certain price for an article, yet by buying tea or groceries, which are reckoned as money articles, they would have to pay more for them. They would have to pay 2d. or 11/2d. more upon a 1/4 lb. of tea, because it was being paid for by hosiery; but I think I would have preferred a different way of dealing with them. I think, if I had been in a position like that, I would have given them less for their hosiery, and sold the articles to them at a fixed price. It would just have come to the very same thing with the merchants.

8579. You think that would have been a wiser course for the merchants to take?-Yes. I remember on one occasion when I brought two or three articles of hosiery to a merchant, I got a certain sum put upon them; but when I got a little tea from him, he said he had to make the tea 2d. more per quarter, because it was paid for in hosiery. I said to him I would not deal in that way if I were him, but that I would give a little less for the hosiery, and I would charge a fixed price for my tea, or whatever other articles I was selling; but he said, 'We must all do that, because if I were to say that I would not give a woman so much for her hosiery, she would go to another merchant with it, and they would give her a higher price, and lay it on their goods;' which I have no doubt they do.

8580. Therefore you did not convince the hosiery merchant?-I convinced him so far, that I got my price. I would not pay the price he charged, and would have taken my article of hosiery back rather than pay it.

8581. Did that take place some years ago?-Yes; it is not less than six years ago.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS ROBERTSON, examined.

8582. Have you been a fisherman here all your life?-Not all my life; but I have been for a number of years.

8583. You hold a bit of ground at Weathersta?-Yes.

8584. Who do you fish for?-For Mr Adie, Voe.

8585. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes.

8586. Do you generally get some of your balance in cash?-Yes. If I have a balance to get I get it, but I always got money when I asked it, whether I had it to get or not.

8587. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the year?-Yes; whenever I ask it.

8588. Did you get that ten years ago if you asked for it?-I did.

8589. Was that the practice then?-Yes; but I never asked for money unless I required it.

8590. You wanted goods oftener?-Yes.

8591. How far is it from Voe to your place?-About three miles.

8592. Is Mr. Adie's the nearest shop to you?-No. Brae is nearer than Voe.

8593. But you dealt at Voe, because you were fishing for Mr. Adie?-I dealt some at Brae too; but mostly at Voe.

8594. Was that because you had an account there?-Yes.

8595. And it was more convenient for you sometimes to deal upon credit?-Yes.

8596. I suppose you would get a larger advance in goods at that shop than you would have got if you were to ask money?-I don't know; I only asked for goods when I was needing them.

8597. But if you had asked money with which to go and buy your goods elsewhere, would you have got it?-I cannot say, for I never asked it.

8598. Have you heard the evidence of Robertson and Wood, and the other fishermen who have been examined to-day?-Yes.

8599. Have you anything different to say from what they said about the system of dealing among the fishermen here?-No.

8600. Have you known fishermen changing from one employment to another?-I have.

8601. Have you done that yourself?-No.

8602. You have always fished for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8603. What is the general reason for the men shifting?-I don't know. I suppose it is because they think they will be better.

8604. How are they better, when the same price is always paid at the end of the year by all the curers?-I cannot see where they can be better by shifting from one man to another; I never felt that I would be any better to do so.

8605. I understand all the merchants hereabout pay the same current price for fish?-Yes. Mr. Adie proposed a stated agreement to me for fishing herring. The herrings in Shetland then were 7s. a cran, and he agreed that he would give us 8s. a cran; but we have only got 8s. a cran for two years. The price varies with the agreement in each year; sometimes we get 13s. a cran, sometimes 10s., and sometimes 12s.-just up and down.

8606. Do you generally go to the herring fishing every year?-Yes.

8607. At what season of the year do you go?-August and September; after we are done with the ling fishing.

8608. And the bargain for the herring fishing is that you are to get so much a cran?-Yes; that was the agreement we had with Mr. Adie when we took our nets.

8609. Do you hire nets from him for that fishing?-No, we buy them, and they are put into our accounts.

8610. Have you paid off the price of these nets now?-Yes.

8611. How long did it take you to pay them?-I could not say exactly, but I think it took us between 8 and 9 years to pay for them all, because we had lean fishings.

8612. You mean that the herring fishing was poor?-Yes.

8613. Did you get them paid off at last?-Yes.

8614. Is the price for the herrings paid down whenever you deliver them?-No.

8615. Do you keep an account for the herring fishing separate from the account for the ling fishing?-Yes.

8616. Do you get goods to the other side of that account too?-No; they are all in the same account.

8617. Your goods are kept in an account at Voe?-Yes.

8618. And the price of the herrings is entered to your credit when you settle?-Yes.

8619. Do you keep a pass-book?-Yes.

8620. Have you got it now?-No; I don't have it, because we think there is no use keeping it after the end of the season. Once we find the pass-book to be correct, we think it is of no farther use, and when I brought it home I suppose the bairns tore it up.

8621. When you square up your account at the end of the year, do you go and look at all the items in Mr. Adie's book?-Yes.

8622. Are they read over to you?-Yes; I compare them with the items in my book, and I see that they are all correct.

8623. Is it mostly goods or cash that you get in the course of the year?-It is goods for the most part but I get a good part of cash too.

[Page 210]

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN RATTER, examined.

8624. You are a fisherman at Weathersta?-Yes.

8625. Do you fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8626. Have you heard what Thomas Robertson has said?-Yes.

8627. Does it all apply to your case as well as his?-Exactly.

8628. How long have you fished for Mr. Adie?-Six years.

8629. Where did you fish before?-I did not fish for any one before, except going for a fee to the ling fishing.

8630. Do you go to the herring fishing also?-Yes.

8631. And you are paid for it in the same way as Robertson?- Yes.

8632. You get a fixed price for the herring?-Yes.

8633. Have you anything to add to what he has said?-No.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.

8634. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I forgot that I had my pass-book with Mr. Adie for this year with me. It shows the goods I am getting now. [Produces book.]

8635. I thought you were getting your goods at cash price now?- Yes; I had a promise of them at cash price.

8636. I see there is tea, 5d.?-That is for 2 oz. of tea.

8637. Then you are not getting them for cash price yet?-I have no doubt that when I settle with Mr. Adie he will square that up. I have his promise for it, and I have no doubt that he will do it. I wish further to say, that this truck system or compulsory barter is a great cause of pauperism, as it makes the poor careless and the rich fearless; because, should the head of the family die, the creditor will probably take the effects left, and consequently leave the widow and fatherless children, if any, on the parish. Another thing is, that when the merchants have it in their power to price both their goods and mine, they clearly see that I must sell, and off it must go at whatever they say is the value, and I must take their goods at the value they are pleased to put upon them, and I-if I am in debt-dare not grumble.

8638. What goods have you had to sell upon which they have put their own price?-For one thing, I have been a carrier of hosiery to different places.

8639. Who have you carried hosiery for?-Perhaps for my wife or others, and the value of the stockings was made to be 10d., or 8d., or 7d. If I took tea, and the value of the stockings was 10d., I could only get 9d. worth. If I took cotton goods I would get the full value, but not if I took tea. Then, if under this system a man gets into debt, it is more in appearance than in reality; and should that man ask money from the apparent creditor, the old account will be shaken at him as a scarecrow, and he is generally told to pay his credit and transfer his custom, and that consequently nails him to the old plan. As to the difference in the price of meal, what deceived me in that line was, that I and others were often told that they only charged 2s. per sack as a commission, which would have been £10 per 100 sacks; but at last, when I wrote to some of the meal dealers in the south, I found it was more like £50 per 100 sacks-that is 10s. per sack instead of 2s.

Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE, examined.

8640. You are a son of Mr. T.M. Adie, who has been already examined?-I am. I am a partner of the business carried on at Voe, although it is carried on in my father's name. I have been a partner for seven or eight years.

8641. Are you aware of any arrangement existing between Messrs. Adie, Anderson, and Inkster, to this effect, that when a fisherman who is in debt to one of these curers goes to another, the new employer undertakes the debt incurred to the former employer?- There was an arrangement of that sort entered into.

8642. Has it been acted upon to a certain extent?-Yes; I think it has been pretty well carried out.

8643. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes; I think the original document is in our possession. I will send it to you.* A principal object or inducement for having that document drawn up was, that a great many of our fishermen were in the habit of settling at the end of the season, and getting advances for rent, or of goods, on the understanding that they were to fish, or go in a boat of ours to the fishing, in the following season; and then they left and went to Mr. Anderson, and took similar advances from him.

8644. Did you find that a man who got into arrears in your books, and to whom you were obliged to refuse supplies on account of his debt being too large, was apt to go to another merchant and engage with him for the following season?-In some cases perhaps they did so, but not as a rule.

8645. But did you not find that when a man's debt got so large that you had to refuse him supplies, and he was not likely to pay it, he went away to another merchant instead of continuing to fish for you?-Sometimes; but most of the men, when they are in debt in that way, save as much as possible, and keep under expenses, in order to assist in getting the debt cleared off.

8646. You see when a man is trying to keep down expenses, and you help him as far as possible?-Yes.

8647. Do you remember of one William Inkster leaving you in that way a good many years ago?-Yes.

8648. And Mr. Anderson paid the whole of his debt to you under that agreement?-Yes; Mr. Anderson paid his debt.

8649. Have other cases occurred of a similar kind?-Yes; I think we have paid Mr. Anderson some accounts for some of his men, and he has paid us.

8650. Is it the full debt that is paid in these cases, or only a proportion of it, or do you make a compromise?-Sometimes we make a compromise.

8651. Was there any understanding when you took the lease of your premises at Voe, that no shop should be permitted on the Busta estate near you?-I cannot speak positively on that matter. I don't know the terms of the lease exactly. I think there was a stipulation in the last lease, with regard to the pasture ground, that no business should be carried on upon it.

8652. Do you mean no fish-curing business?-No shop. There was a talk at one time of having a [Page 211] public-house put up there; and I think it was with reference to that that the stipulation was put in. That was in the lease of the park or enclosed property.

8653. Has your firm a grocer's licence?-Yes.

8654. I understand there is no public-house in the neighbourhood?-No; we have a spirit licence.

8655. Have you a public-house licence as well?-Yes.

8656. That business is carried on, of course, in different premises from your other business?-No; they are carried on in the same premises.

8657. Is there not a different door to the place where you sell the spirits?-No; we are quite at liberty to sell spirits there, but not to consume them on the premises.

8658. Then you have no licence at all to consume on the premises?-No.

8659. And the licence you have is not a public house licence?- No.

8660. You have been present to-day and heard the evidence: is there any observation you wish to make upon it?-I don't know that there is. I think most of the things which have been referred to were explained by my father. There is something, however, with reference to the curing of the fish which I may refer to. That matter has scarcely been gone into as it should have been. For instance, it has been stated that a ton of salt will cure a ton of fish in one of the Faroe vessels, but it never does so. At one time, I believe, it would have cured a ton of fish, but there is a fearful extravagance and waste of salt going on in these vessels now. There are tons of salt which are wasted among ballast, and in other ways, so that we never turn out a ton of dry fish for a ton of salt.

8661. You heard the calculation made by Blanch on that subject?-Yes. Salt costs us a great deal more than he mentioned; we don't have salt in our cellars under 27s. or 27s. 6d., and there is the cost of shipping again into the vessels and wastage.

8662. He allowed 2s. a ton for waste?-Yes, in landing, but not in shipping; 2s. a ton will not cover the waste both in landing and shipping; and then the cost of labour is very much higher than it used to be.

8663. Is 12s. a ton an insufficient allowance for labour?-It is.

8664. Have you made a calculation of that at any time for the purposes of your business?-We can scarcely get an accurate calculation made, but I am certain it is more than he stated. There are different parcels of fish landed from different vessels to be cured, and we cannot keep an accurate account of the time expended on each parcel.

8665. But take a single ton of fish: is 12s. more than the ordinary cost of curing it?-No; it is considerably less than the cost. I am perfectly certain of that.

8666. Is 50s. per ton, the ordinary deduction charged off fishermen for the Faroe fishing, very much above the actual cost?-I don't think it is 6d. over the actual cost.

8667. Does that include anything for superintendence?-Of course, it includes the allowance for our utensils, and the cost of beaches and superintendence. Then Blanch said there was a deduction of 5 per cent, but it is not 5 per cent. that is deducted. There is generally £1 per ton deducted for expenses in realizing the fish and storage, and so on.

8668. Is that £1 per ton on the cured fish?-Yes; that is known all over the country to be the ordinary rate of charge.

8669. That comes to nearly 5 per cent.?-Yes; sometimes it is a little more than 5 per cent, and sometimes it is not so much.

8670. Are these all the deductions that are made before the division of the proceeds of the cured fish?-Yes; there is the curing, and the master and the mate's extra, and the score-money.

8671. What is score-money?-The men are paid so much for each score of fish they individually draw.

8672. That is to say, each man counts the fish which he gets with his own lines?-Yes, and he gets 6d. a score for them.

8673. That is a sort of premium upon industry?-Yes; that is deducted from the gross, and paid to the individual fisherman.

8674. Is there any other deduction in favour of either the merchant or the men?-I am not aware of any. There are some payments for bait which are deducted too. That is charged against the vessel's fishing, and deducted from the gross.

8675. Is there any expense for lines, or do the men furnish their own lines?-The men furnish their lines in the Faroe fishing.

8676. Is the price of these lines charged against the fishing, or against the men individually?-Against the men individually. Each man gets his own lines, and they are charged in his individual account. There is a stock of lines generally kept by the master on board the vessel, and they are supplied by him to the men on board.

8677. These stores on board the vessel go to the individual account of the men?-Yes, stores of all kinds. We supply them with 8 lbs. of bread per man per week, and they find their own small stores.

8678. These they generally purchase in your shop?-Yes.

8679. And they are put to their account?-Yes.

* The agreement referred to was afterwards sent in, and was in the following terms:-'We, Gideon Anderson, of Ollaberry; John Anderson, Hillswick; James Inkster, Brae; and Thomas M. Adie, Voe; considering the very disastrous consequences likely to ensue to ourselves, and ultimately to our fishermen, from the reckless system of giving them advances which has been for some time practised, and knowing that such system is farther followed from the fact that if any of us refused their demands, however absurd, they turned to another, who gave them what they wanted; we have resolved to do away with such in future, so that each of us may be able to exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of what advances he may make to his fishermen;' and the parties agreed and bound themselves, so long as they continued as fishcurers in the same localities, 'not to tamper with or engage each other's fishermen, or allow our boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make advances of rents to them on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under any circumstances whatever, unless they produce a certificate from any of us whom they last fished for, to the effect that he is clear of debt and all other obligations existing therefrom, or in connection with the fishing,' under a penalty of £5, to be paid to the poor of the parish.

In a letter with reference to this agreement Mr. T. M. Adie says:- 'The only way in which it has ever had to be acted on is, that occasionally some man would like to be in a boat more convenient for him, when any of us whom he had fished for gave him a note stating that he was under no obligation, or if he was due a balance, the curer he went to paid it for him. On some occasions we had found that a worthless fellow would get what he actually needed advanced to him, and then, if any fancied want was not supplied, he would leave the boat, and the rest of the crew lost their fishing for want of a man in his stead, and it tended to keep down advances in goods so that men had, more money to get.'

Brae, January 13, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

8680. Where do you live?-In North Delting.