Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (66)

16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and crew, and the place where he belongs to.

16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods- as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops themselves.

16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing.

16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the men being in such a poor position.

16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?- No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks, return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.

16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at the end of the fishing, it is all they need.

16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying the resident men week by week, so that they could have money with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable it might be an advantage.

16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it takes place immediately after the fishing is over.

16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight weeks.

16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season. They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.

16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen themselves if they agreed to it.

16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject, but they have always said that such a thing would not work there at all.

16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.

16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not take place until November or December, and even later?-The reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been completed.

16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes; and they then arrange what the price is to be.

16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish cannot be cured within a month or so.

16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured, and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.

16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by the price of the day.

16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?- Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt. Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there, they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come out of it.

16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether on the Fife and Buckie coasts.

16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.

16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a considerable extent?-Yes.

16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.

16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.

16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were, by the price of the day.

16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them; and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a stated price throughout it whole season.

16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do if they require them.

16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.

16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want, the curer becoming responsible for it.

16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason in the nature of the business why that system should not be followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.

16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the market?-Yes.

16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price for every fish they catch.

16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a certain price per fish overhead.

16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.

16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round the Caithness and Buckie coasts.

16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get it to account.

16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It is fixed before the men go to sea.

16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?- Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts, and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season. These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.

16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but others would not.

16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.

16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.

16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it, because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.

16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many or few.

16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their agreement with the bounty.

16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the fish-curers commenced to cure.

16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they gave a bounty of from £5, £10, £15, and up to £30, or even £40, to any crew who would agree to them.

16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.

16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes; they are all tallied and extended by him.

16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly. They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the commencement of the season.

16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July. They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July, and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that time.

16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these men go together and fish for themselves.

16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock fishing.

16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26 or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it. The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years.

16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes.

16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to sea and seen how the fishing was carried on.

16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be at a decided disadvantage.

16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea, and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their fish.

16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones.

16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty fathoms of water in the Moray Firth.

16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I have gone out three or four times in the season.

16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing.

[Page 431]

16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that question.

16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October. That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not settled with before the end of October.

16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about October or November they get a final settlement, when the season's transactions are settled for.

16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?- It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing.

16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes.

16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished.

16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing too?-Yes.

16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock fishing is usually settled weekly.

16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing seasons of the year?-It does.

16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes.

16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts had been made up and settled.

16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business, there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could proceed to settle with them.

16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery; but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we would be apt to lose a good deal.

16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place, where they could not get them entered, and there are so many fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the price of the day, or sell their fish daily.

16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in any part of the kingdom except Shetland.

16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any.

16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in debt.

16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes: free men and unfree men?-Yes.

16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland. The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk which they run in advancing boats and nets.

16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances in money.

16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not.

16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually range from £6 to £10 along the northern coast.

16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick would cost about £120 or £130.

16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own.

16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?- Yes.

16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about £3, so that a boat and nets would cost about £250 altogether.

16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?- Yes.

16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer. In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him his boat and lines.

16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge of their circumstances.

16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that; because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth of them who are in debt.

16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes.

[Page 432]

16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as £20 or £30?-He is not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer.

16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt comes as low as that.

16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free? Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to £50?- When it is under £30, I think the man is considered to be a good man.

16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran below the town price.

16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time.

16,808. Do you know whether they pay their rent to the landlord direct, or through the fish-curer?-They pay it twice a year, at Candlemas and Martinmas, to the landlord; but they are not in the same way bound as the Shetland fishermen are. They are not in the same state of bondage.

16,809. Wherein do you think is the difference?-They are free to leave the place when they like, and they may go down to the town and fish; but they might incur the proprietor's displeasure if they were to go away and leave the place altogether if their crofts were under lease.

16,810. Are these the only cases of the kind which you know?- They are; and they are very small in extent.

16,811. Do you know any districts where it is frequently the case that a fisherman does not receive any money at all in payment for his fish, but runs an account for goods which is more than sufficient to balance the money due for the fish?-There may be a stray case of that kind, but it is not common. Where the fishermen are so negligent that they are hopelessly sunk in debt, the fish-curer, of course, tries to give them as little advance as possible, and to get them to fish as much as possible, in order that they may get out of debt; but in some cases where they make a poor fishing and have been heavily in debt he cannot give them any advance in money, but he may give them an advance in goods.

16,812. Is that a common thing in your experience?-It is not.

16,813. In what districts would you say it was most common?- Along the Caithness coast.

16,814. Can you furnish me from your books with a note of the price cod, ling, and tusk in September, for the last ten or fifteen years?-Yes. We usually buy from the Shetland fish-curers during the month of August. Between May and August we often ask quotations from them for a quantity of fish to be delivered either in Ireland or in Leith in September or October, and they usually send on the quotation in September. We have bought largely in that way during the last ten years, so that I can furnish a list of the prices.

16,815. Do you supply hooks and lines to your fishermen?-There is a little of that done to the Gairloch and west coast fishermen, because there are no places there from which they can supply themselves. We buy the materials in Glasgow, and send them on to the men, and allow them to lie at the debit of the crew's account until they are able to pay for them. The only thing we supply usually is cutch to fishermen.

<Adjourned>.

EDINBURGH: THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1872

<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.

JAMES LEWIS, examined.

16,816. What are you?-I am a grocer and wine merchant in Canongate, Edinburgh. I have other two places of business besides that.

16,817. Have you carried on an extensive business in Edinburgh?-I have, for nearly forty years.

16,818. You have examined some samples which I sent to you, and given me a report of the values you put upon them?-Yes.

16,819. Is it a correct report?-It is.*

16,820. You examined a small parcel of oatmeal, No. 1 in the report, which you value at 1s. per 7 lbs.: how much is that per boll?-There is 140 lbs. in the boll, so that it would be exactly 20s. per boll. At the time I made the valuation that was a fair average price for it in Edinburgh.

16,821. Was it a good quality of meal?-It was not; not so good as some samples which I have frequently seen. I could not sell it in my premises, for instance.

16,822. Would it be considered inferior quality in Canongate?- Yes.

16,823. Could you not sell it at all?-Perhaps I could sell it; but I should not like to trust selling it to my customers, as they might not like to come back again.

16,824. Is it above or below the average quality of meal that is sold in country districts?-I think that in Shetland it will perhaps be about the average quality sold there, as it has likely been made from oats grown in [Page 433] that country; but it is not like meal made from oats grown in Midlothian.

16,825. Do you know that from any knowledge which you have of Shetland trade?-I don't know anything about it, further than from seeing the quality of the meal which was submitted to me; and comparing it with what could be made in Midlothian, I should say that it was inferior in quality to anything that would be sold as good meal here.

16,826. Perhaps you do not know much about the business which is carried on in country districts?-I cannot say that I have carried it on, but I know a good deal about it.

16,827. Have you examined any samples of meal from districts similar to Shetland?-I have had meal from Aberdeenshire and from Caithness.

16,828. Was this meal which you examined inferior to the average quality of Caithness meal?-It was.

16,829. Was it much inferior?-I could not exactly say that, but it was inferior.

16,830. The sample of tea, No. 2, submitted to you, you have valued at 2s. 4d. per lb.; and you state at the end of your report, that of course an allowance must be made for carriage, etc. to Shetland?-Yes. Of course, tea must be sent to Shetland; they must get it either from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or London.

16,831. Is the value of 2s. 4d., which you have put upon it, what you consider the retail price of that tea would be in Edinburgh?- Yes.

16,832. Would it be reasonable to charge a much higher price than that, in respect of the carriage to Shetland?-I think about 1s. per cwt., or from that to 2s. at the outside, would be the expense of carriage to Shetland.

16,833. That would make a very slight rise upon the price per lb.?-It would be a mere trifle; because there would be about 84 to 90 lbs. in a chest, and they could get that sent down for 1s.

16,834. Would you consider 2s. 10d. an extravagant charge for that in Shetland?-I would; because the value of 2s. 4d. which I put upon it includes the profit of the merchant here.

16,835. Would 2s. 10d. be an extravagant charge for it in Shetland, even as a credit price?-Yes; it would be so anywhere.

16,836. The tea No. 3 you also value at 2s. 4d. per lb.: is there any difference between these two teas?-So far as I could see, I think they are very like the same value. There is a little difference between the style of the two teas, but nothing to affect the actual value of them.

16,837. Could you account for one of them being sold at 81/2d. per qr. and the other at 7d. per qr. lb.?-No; unless the party may have bought the one too dear. The merchant must have his profit in any case; but if he is not a judge of what he is buying, the wholesale merchant will get a larger profit out of him than another.

16,838. Would you be surprised to be informed that these teas were sold at these different prices?-I could not be done in that way.

16,839. But you suppose the Shetland retail merchants may be done in that way?-They may be ignorant of their business, for anything I know. There are a great many small people in the country who carry on such a business as selling tea and who know very little about it.

16,840. Still you think the teas are of the same quality, although one of them was sold at 2s. 4d. and the other at 2s. 10d. per lb.?- So far as I can judge, they are of the same quality; but I could easily suppose there would be a difference of 6d. per lb. in the way I have mentioned.

16,841. From a mistake on the part of the retailer?-Yes; or from his ignorance of his business and the wholesale dealer taking advantage of that.

16,842. Might he not have purchased the No. 3 tea as a bargain, and given his customers the advantage of that?-He might have done that; but it is not likely a Shetland man would do that.

16,843. The sample No. 4 was a specimen of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that a fair quality of sugar?-Yes; a very fair quality of sugar at that price.

16,844. Would 6d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it?-It would be so here.

16,845. Would you consider it an extravagant price in a country district also?-I think it would be. I think 5d. would be about the value of that sugar in Shetland; it would not be more.

16,846. No. 5 is a sample of tea also which you value at 2s. 6d. per lb.?-Yes; it is better than the others.

16,847. Would 2s. 10d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it in Shetland?-I think it might sell there for 2s. 10d., or even 3s. I consider it to be a very good tea.

16,848. You value it at 2s. 6d?-Yes, here; but I think 2s. 10d. would be a fair value for it in Shetland.

16,849. You allow a greater advance upon that tea as sold in Shetland than you did upon the others?-Yes. The higher the price of the tea is, generally speaking, there is a larger profit upon it.

16,850. Do you think a merchant would be fairly entitled to take a larger profit upon No. 5 than upon No. 2?-Yes; a little.

16,851. Then 2s. 10d. would not be a very extravagant charge for it?-I don't think it.

16,852. No. 6 is a sample of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that of the same quality as the other sugar?-There was very little difference between them.

16,853. Would that be fairly charged at 5d. per lb.?-I think it would sell for about the same as the other.

16,854. No. 7 is a sample of tobacco which you value at 1s. per lb.?-Yes; that is the retail price. I cannot say that I am a great judge of tobacco; but that is the retail price in Edinburgh for something like the same quality.

16,855. That is 3d. per oz.: would you consider 4d. per oz. an overcharge for it in a country district?-Yes, I think it would be 1d. of an overcharge. They buy it for about 3s. 4d. per lb., and I consider that 8d. upon a pound of tobacco is a very fair profit.

16,856. No. 8 is also a sample of tobacco which you value at 4s. per lb.: was it of the same quality?-So far as I am able to judge it was.

16,857. No. 9 was a sample of tea which you value at 3s. per lb.: would 1s. 1d. per qr. lb. be too much to charge for it?-It would be too much to charge for any of the teas that were submitted to me.

16,858. Was this the best of the teas?-I thought so.

16,859. Was it considerably superior to the others?-I thought so; but 4s. 4d. would be far too much to charge for it.

16,860. No. 10 is a sample of loaf sugar which you value at 6d.: would 8d. per lb. be too much for it?-It would be too large a price to charge for it.

16,861. Even in Shetland?-I think so.

16,862. You have stated in your report that the sample of flour, No. 11, was not fit for use?-I considered so.

16,863. Do you think that arises from it having been kept too long after being got from the shop?-No, I don't think it is flour at all. It seems to be a sort of mixture that I would not like to give to a pig.

16,864. I now show you the sample No. 11 again: is that [showing] the flour you refer to?-Yes.

16,865. You don't think it is fit for use at all?-I do not; at least I don't think it would do in Edinburgh.

16,866. What is it?-My opinion is, that there is good deal of barley-meal in it, not flour at all.

16,867. Then, if that is the case, it would in your opinion be overcharged at 2d. per lb.?-Yes. That would be 14d. per peck of 7 lbs., or 46s. per bag, which is about the price of the best flour just now.

16,868. What was it in December or January last?-It was cheaper than it is now.

16,869. Then you think that 2d. per lb. would have been an absurd charge for that flour at that time?-Perfectly absurd.

[Page 434]

16,870. No. 12 is a sample of rice which you have valued at 21/2d. per lb.: was that rice of good quality?-Yes; it was of fairish quality.

16,871. Would 31/2d. be too much for it?-It would be more than could be got for it here.

16,872. Would it be extravagant to charge that price for it in an outlying country district?-I think it would. I think 3d. would be the outside that could be got for it.

16,873. Are you aware that the expense of carriage to some of these places must be pretty high?-They have direct communication to Lerwick twice a week, which, as I said before, cannot exceed 2s. per cwt., and that would be about 1/4d. per lb.

16,874. Supposing it had to be conveyed thirty miles from Lerwick, that of course would increase the expense?-Of course it would add to the expense; but I have been speaking of the direct communication between Edinburgh and Lerwick.

16,875. No. 13 is a sample of soap, which you value at 4d. per lb.: was that a good quality of soap?-It was middling; but it was in such a state from being dried up, that one could scarcely judge of it. However, I think that would be about its value.

16,876. Had it been injured by being kept?-It gets dry and hard from the moisture getting out of it. If I had seen it cut from the bar, I might have come nearer a proper judgement of it.

16,877. Do you think 6d. per lb. would be too high for it?- Decidedly; either for it or any kind of soap.

16,878. You think that even although you had seen it cut from the bar you could not have put so high a value as that upon it?-I could not.

16,879. Can you say generally with regard to the samples, that any of them were deteriorated by having been kept for some time after leaving the shop?-I do not think they had been much affected. The sugar may have changed its character a little by being dry, and also the soap; but I don't think any of the other articles could be much deteriorated in value by that.

16,880. Would you make any allowance in your estimate of their value on that account?-No; I just valued them as I saw them, according to the best of my judgement.

16,881. Do you think it would be fair to make any such allowance?-No, I don't think it would be necessary.

16,882. Is it usual to charge a higher price for such goods in country districts than in the town?-Generally it is the case that a rather higher price is charged. There is less competition in business, and there can be no doubt that in a country district you pay more for articles than in town.

16,883. But, on the other hand, rents are lower in the country than in the town?-No doubt they are; but the amount of business is usually much less.

16,884. Making full allowance for that, however, do you think that certain of the articles which have been submitted to you have been overcharged?-I think the whole of them have been. There is one thing I may mention, which is, that looking back fifty years ago they had then no direct communication between Shetland and the large towns in the country, and the merchants there were longer in being paid for what they sent south; but now they are paid within ten days of the time when they send their goods to Edinburgh or Glasgow or Newcastle, or wherever it is, and that makes a very considerable difference to these merchants.

16,885. What goods do you refer to?-Any kind of goods that the islands furnish. If the merchants send eggs, butter, bacon, or anything of that kind, to people in Edinburgh or Glasgow, they get a remittance in cash within ten days for the amount of the goods sent. Formerly that could not be the case, because they had to wait perhaps for a sailing vessel once a month, or something like that; and that makes a great difference to the people in Shetland.

16,886. Do you receive large consignments of eggs and butter from Shetland?-I get large consignments from Caithness, but not from Shetland.

16,887. But you know that the practice with Shetland is to remit back at once for that?-Yes, at once.

*Mr. Lewis's report stated the following as his valuation of the different samples submitted to him:- No. 1 Oatmeal, per 7 lbs. £0 1 0 No. 2. Tea, per lb., 0 2 4 No. 3. Tea, do., 0 2 4 No. 4. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 No. 5. Tea, do., 0 2 6 No. 6. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2 No. 7. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 No. 8. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0 No. 9. Tea, do., 0 3 0 No. 10. Loaf Sugar, do., 0 0 6 No. 11. Flour, not fit for use. No. 12. Rice, per lb., 0 0 21/2 No. 13. Soap, do., 0 0 4

The samples Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 were those purchased at Mossbank by the witness A.T. Jamieson, 7954; Nos. 5 and 6 were samples obtained by the Commissioner personally, at Messrs. Spence & Co. at Uyea Sound; No. 7 was obtained at the shop at Grutness; No. 8 from the shop of Mr. Gavin Henderson, Scousborough; and Nos. 9 to 13 were produced by the witness Charlotte Johnston, as having been purchased at the shop of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend.

Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, MAGNUS MOWAT, examined.

16,888. Are you a boat-builder in Newhaven?-I am.

16,889. Do you do a large business there in building boats for fishermen?-Yes, I do a pretty large business.

16,890. Do you know the style of boat that is built in Shetland?- Yes. I have seen one or more of them at Wick, when I was there at the herring fishing.

16,891. You mean the six-oared boat of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-Yes. I have seen one at least of those dimensions.

16,892. Do you build boats of that kind yourself?-No. Our boats are much superior to the boats there.

16,893. Can you say at what price you could build a of 22 feet keel in the style of the Shetland boat?-I could hardly say.

16,894. What do you get for a boat of that size, such as you are in the habit of building?-£22, 10s. That is just for the shell of the boat, with the ironwork attached to it. The men have the masts, sails, and oars to supply on their own responsibility.

16,895. How much would the mast and ropes and other fittings cost, including the sail?-I don't know what quantity of ropes they would require, but with the yawls which are used in fishing in the Firth of Forth, it generally costs about £1, 10s. to fit them with mast and oars, and the necessary spar, without the sail. The sail, I think, would cost about £4.

16,896. You have seen a Shetland boat: have you any idea whether such a boat as is used there would cost more or less than a boat such as you have been speaking of?-The Shetland boats of the same size would not be half the value of our boats here.

16,897. Why?-Because the timber is inferior, and they are lighter. I might have 24 timbers in a side, when they would only have 10 or 12.

16,898. Are your boats built in the same style as the Shetland boats? Are they clinker-built?-Yes; but I don't suppose they use the same materials. I think it is Norwegian timber they use; and if that is so, the cost of them would be considerably less.

16,899. About how much less would it be?-I cannot calculate that exactly, because wages there are less than they are here.

16,900. What would be the difference in the cost of the timber? Would it be so much as one half?-No. Larch is about 14s. per 100 feet of planking, and the timber they use would be from 8s. to 10s.

16,901. I suppose boat-builders' wages are considerably less in Shetland and Caithness than here?-Yes; they are from 6s. to 8s. a week less, at any rate. I pay 24s. here, and I should think that 16s. would be about their figure there.

16,902. How long will one of your boats last?-From seventeen to twenty years.

16,903. Is that the ordinary calculation as to the life of a boat?-It depends a great deal upon the kind of work they are put to. In some cases they do not last so long; but if they are preserved from accident, they may last for that time.

16,904. Will a Shetland boat, such as you have seen, last its long as that?-It will not last so long, according to my judgement.

16,905. Suppose it were used only for three or four months in the summer, would it last longer than it would do if it were more used?-Certainly it would.

16,906. But you think it would not last so long in any case its seventeen or eighteen years?-No. The frame is much weaker: there are fewer ribs in it than in our boats; because, while in a Shetland boat there might be a rib every 2 or 3 feet, I might have them 10 or 12 [Page 435] inches apart, and of course the ribs are the strength of the boat.

16,907. Would twelve or fourteen years be the outside of the life of a Shetland boat?-I would suppose that would be about as long as they could run them with safety.

16,908. About how much do you think it takes to keep up a boat of that size?-1s. a day during the time she is at work would keep her up amply.