Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (26)

6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of fish as they came ashore.

6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I fished to him.

6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got cash.

6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had delivered so many fish.

6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.

6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back with the line, we got anything we required for it.

6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, examined.

6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.

6867. Do you live there?-Yes.

6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for the last two years.

6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. Smith.

6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.

6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.

6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.

6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man sometimes did not have it to get.

6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other years I was a good bit behind.

6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that was what made me shift from man to man.

6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted twice because I was in debt.

6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I cannot tell how long it is ago.

6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. Williamson.

6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.

6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.

6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it with.

6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.

6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.

6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and no copy of my account.

6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.

6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.

6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.

6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.

6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.

6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.

6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been fishing for him.

6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know yet what I am to get.

6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear with him.

6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not much-a mere trifle.

6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.

6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with him.

6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never got.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, examined.

6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I am.

6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for two years.

6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.

6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In 1868.

6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.

6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.

6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished for him.

6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted it?-No.

6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.

6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.

6908. Why?-I don't know.

6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.

6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; but in the second year I had 10s. to get.

6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year too?-Yes.

6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in cash.

6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back and go again.

6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.

6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.

6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and such things as that.

6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I never asked for it again.

6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not give a pass-book to any one more than to me.

6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- Yes.

6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.

6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- Yes.

6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with bread.

6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small stores?-Yes.

6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took it home.

6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it home.

6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, and anything I required.

6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when you came home?-I got them twice.

6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make two voyages; last year we made three.

6929. And you would be getting something additional each time you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every voyage.

6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.

6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.

6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last year, and this year I had £10.

6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.

6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.

6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.

6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for him?-Yes, that was about the time.

6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always at school before I went to the fishing.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, examined.

6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to the Busta estate.

6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.

6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the middle of November.

6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's ledger?-Yes.

6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.

6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.

6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.

6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. Anderson's.

6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.

6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me to take a few supplies from him.

6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and spring.

6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- Yes.

6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled to do so.

6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of settlement.

6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much about the same time as for the other-some time in November or December.

6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.

6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused money at any time.

6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.

6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.

6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it is.

6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my experience.

6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man should take his goods from him.

6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.

6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.

6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].

6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from 1865 or 1866 to the present time.

6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. Anderson's book?-Yes.

6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.

6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think I was.

6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14, 8s. 7d.

6970. You live with your father?-Yes.

6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.

6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the country.

6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.

6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at Mr. Anderson's.

6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.

6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding something for carriage.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, examined.

6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for some time.

6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I am living with my father.

6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for three years.

6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.

6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get from his shop?-Yes.

6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.

6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year about two months ago.

6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but it was not much.

6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year before?-I was.

6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was clear. I had something to get the year before.

6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.

6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.

6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next account?-Yes.

6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.

6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in money?-No; they don't get them in money.

6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps they may get a little money.

6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.

6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].

6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book before?-No.

6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.

6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I could not get it.

6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did not have money, and I could not get it.

6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.

7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George Henry.

7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; and I was there three months.

7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years since I first went to it.

7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required from him at the time.

7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to get, and I got it.

7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.

7006. During that time you always had an account with your employer?-Yes.

7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.

7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. Anderson.

7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.

7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my supplies the first year from him.

7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the haaf?-No.

7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.

7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, I might have had my liberty.

7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not clear?-Yes.

7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I just got them from the man that I was to engage with.

7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.

7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.

7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months afterwards?-Yes.

7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. They make up their crews then.

7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews then?-Yes.

7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in the rising year.

7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.

7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I believe there is something in that.

7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that year when I left the beach.

7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.

7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago

7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about £5 odds.

7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.

7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.

7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.

7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.

7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a little of it after I got the summons.

7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.

7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.

7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.

7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.

7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.

7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.

7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.

7041. When was that?-Three years ago.

7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.

7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I cannot say exactly what the reason was.

7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for the merchant I am now with.

7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5 and £6.

7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.

7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.

7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.

7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for the last three years. I am too old.

7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.

7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the year?-Occasionally.

7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was something due and it was put against me.

7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.

7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had my freedom; there was no compulsion.

7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.

7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have done so; but I saw no occasion for it.

7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.

7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the time came for settlement.

7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have anything to do with that.

7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.

7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were done in any other way.

7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.

7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do anything in the way of changing it.

7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't interfere with.

7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with them in any way.

7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every way they can.

7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.

7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.

7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own books and are satisfied with them.

7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle it herself?-Yes.

7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.

7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, and it has been so all my days.

7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the price.

7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop with it.

7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.

7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- Yes.

7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until your debt was paid?-Yes.

[Page 170]

7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.

7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.

7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a little cash?-No.

7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off now than they were in my young days, because at that time married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to be successful, it pays them very well.

7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.

7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.

7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four years.

7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- Yes.

7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven voyages to Davis Straits.

7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.

7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve voyages for him.

7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was about 1850 or 1851.

7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.

7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.

7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got your advance, and could take it where you pleased.

7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick who engaged you?-Yes.

7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2 or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the book which they had to settle at that time.

7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them were sea-going clothes.

7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your families?-No; not very often.

7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all about the same.

<Adjourned>.

Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872. <Present>-Mr. Guthrie.

DAVID GREIG, examined.

7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for them at North Roe for ten years.

7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.

7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with those on the west side.

7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- At Feideland.

7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.

7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in this parish.

7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.

7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was £193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.

7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate on which they graze.

7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about £130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep up the property.

7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will have anything.

7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually understood so.

7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that they entered into it.

7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.

7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.

7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.

7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants fishing to other curers.

7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.

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7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.

7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no consequences have followed.

7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have been none at all.

7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in this parish.

7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were four deep-sea boats from Yell.

7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.

7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.

7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in our case it has never been above 48s.

7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.

7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.

7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are allowed to pay for them in three years.

7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the fishing.

7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.

7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had no profit by doing it.

7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.

7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 from Northmaven, in 16 boats.

7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it was approximately about £1220.

7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That is their earnings from the fishing alone.

7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary course of business.

7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.

7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going over the accounts.

7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.

7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- Yes.

7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the fishermen.

7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their earnings.

7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.

7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2 to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their chance of the fishing of these two lines.

7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.

7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' fishing was more than their fee.

7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't think so.

7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part of the country.

7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about £20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the average for the men much higher than I have put it there.

7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of the men?-Yes.

7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and £170 additional approximately for rent.

7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; that is taken off their fishings.

7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about £8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire and provisions through the year, then the difference between the £8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to their families during the season.

7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the year?-Yes.

7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are all quite near.

7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.

7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop through the year, being returned to it for purchases.

7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- Yes.

7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a single year?-It varies very much.

7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much as that.

7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and Hillswick.

[Page 172]

7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come back to me in turn.

7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there are six overdrawn accounts.

7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.

7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way.

7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always found it to be the best principle.

7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left the employment in consequence of being in debt.

7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.

7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.

7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an unfavourable year.

7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I think four or five years ago.

7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of years?-In two or three cases it has done so.

7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases just now.

7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was cleared off?-Yes.

7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.

7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.

7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.

7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if they were the proprietors.

7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else they would have to pay it.

7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the royalty to the proprietor.

7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp too.

7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.

7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.

7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should have the kelp shores.

7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid by them?-Yes.

7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value for it without having any profit on it.

7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in cash for it, then there would be no profit.

7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you have a profit on the goods?-Yes.

7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.

7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it for last year, when there were twelve tons.

7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5, 10s. per ton.

7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on board ship?-No.

7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and re-shipped again.

7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at Simbister?-Yes.

7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. per cwt.?-I don't think it would.

7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at 4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and shipping and transhipping again.

7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the property.

7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.

7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.