Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (11)

3030. Did you pay for the summons?-I did.

3031. You have handed me another letter in the following terms:

'MOUL, 1869, <Jan>. 18<th>.
'THOMAS JAMIESON.
'LAURANCE MALCOLMSON.
'WILLIAM MANSON.
'WILLIAM MOUAT.

'I this day duly give you notice to look out for A house at Martamas 1869, as I am not incline to keep such men as you for your preasent condick.

'ROBERT MOUAT.'

3032. What does that letter refer to?-It was sent to us because we had allowed Malcolm Malcolmson to give his share of the fish away to another merchant than Mouat.

3033. You understood Mouat to refer to Malcolmson having sold, his fish to Tulloch?-Yes.

3034. This letter was written at an earlier period than the warning you received yourself?-Yes, the year before.

3035. How do you know it was that particular act on your part which caused this letter to be written?-Because Mouat told me so himself.

3036. When did he tell you so?-That same year, just a few days after the letter was written

3037. How was it that you did not leave your ground at that time?-We just never minded him, but went on as we had been doing. I and the rest of the men fished for him, and that man fished for Thomas Tulloch as he had been doing, and Mouat never asked anything about it afterwards. He just annulled the letter, as it were.

3038. You have produced another summons of removing: what does it refer to?-It is the summons that was served upon another man, Thomas Jamieson, at the same time that the summons was served upon me, and for the same thing. He knew that I was coming here, and he wanted me to bring his summons also, that I might show it to you. He had also fished for James Smith in 1870.

3039. Have you anything to say about Mouat's shop?-It was very little worth.

3040. Did you get all your goods there?-Yes.

3041. Were you obliged to take them there?-We were because we could not get them anywhere else.

3042. Did Mouat tell you that you must take them from him?-He did not say that we must take them; but when we were fishing for him, and getting no money, we were obliged to go and take our goods from his shop. Although they had been double the price of what they were anywhere else, we had no other way of doing. We could not make a better of it.

3043. You think the quality of the articles you got there was not good?-It was not.

3044. The meal especially was bad?-Yes; the meal was worst.

3045. Was the tea good?-No; it was bad, and it was dear.

3046. For whom were you fishing last year?-For James Smith.

3047. Are you perfectly at liberty now to fish for any one you please?-Yes, we are at perfect liberty.

3048. Smith is not a tacksman?-No; he just takes our fish, and pays us well for them, as high as can be got in the place.

3049. Do you deal at Smith's shop?-Yes.

3050. And you settle with him annually?-Yes; I have just settled with him this week.

3051. Had you a balance to receive from him?-Yes; £4, 14s.

3052. That was your balance of the season's fishing, after deducting the price of the goods you had got during the season from his shop?-Yes.

3053. Is that a usual balance in a good season, or is it under or over?-It is just about the general thing.

3054. Was that paid to you in cash?-Yes.

3055. You paid your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

3056. Have Hay & Co. any fish-curing places in that neighbourhood?-No, they have a place down at Dunrossness, but that is a long way from us.

3057. You are not expected to fish for them?-No; we have heard nothing about that yet.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT ANDERSON, examined.

3058. You are principal shopman to Mr. Robert Linklater, merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.

3059. I understand you desire to make some explanation with regard to the evidence of two women who were examined here?- Yes; of Margaret Tulloch, and of Mrs. Thomas Anderson, Margaret Tulloch said she refused to take worsted from us to knit, because she could not get cash for her work. I have to state that we refused to give her work because she kept it so very long; and when she was asked why she had kept it so long, she said she had so many lodgers, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. The last thing she had from us was a small handkerchief, the knitting of which was worth 1s. 6d., and which could easily be [Page 68] made in three days. She had it in hand for two days short of five months. Mrs. Anderson made the same remark, that she would not take worsted, because she could not get cash for her knitting. I have the same explanation to make with regard to her, that we refused her work because kept it too long. She got a little shawl to knit on 28d February 1870, and she returned it to use on 14th June. The knitting of it cost 2s.

3060. You find that from your work-book?-Yes. When we asked her why she kept the work so long, she replied that she had so much out-door work to do, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. Then there was one of the girls Brown, Mrs. Tait, who was examined the first day, and who said, I think, that I would not give her cash, but would only give it to my favourites. There are some sisters of that family, and the book was in name of one of the sisters. I only recollect her asking me once for a shilling, which I gave her.

3061. If she got cash, would it not appear in the book?-Yes.

3062. Did she sometimes deal with you in the way of selling her hosiery?-No.

3063. She always knitted for you?-Yes. On 2d July 1869 there is cash 1s. marked: that is the only time I recollect her asking it; and she got it, although I may have made the remark when handing it to her, that we were not in the habit of giving cash. I did not refuse it for all that, but in the act of handing it I may have made that remark.

3064. Mr. Linklater stated that there are about 300 people knitting for him: are the names of all these parties entered in your work-book in separate accounts?-Yes. [Produces work-book.]

3065. Will you show me the way, you make settlement with one of your workers?-Here [showing] is the case of Mary Henry, a country girl.

3066. Is that a good enough instance of it?-Yes. She brings in ten veils, and she has to get 1s. each for knitting them. That is entered to her credit. She will ask what she is to get, and we tell her. Then she will take whatever she wants at that time. She may have sent the veils in with another girl, and come in afterwards herself to get the goods.

3067. I see she has taken out 17s. 41/2d., worth in goods?-She had taken out the amount she had to get, and she brought in other ten veils afterwards, the date of which I find is not marked. Then she asked what she had to get, and she was told it was 4s. 111/2d. We would ask her if she was to settle for that, and she said yes, and we marked it settled.

3068. Was that 4s. 111/2d, which is marked as the balance due to her, paid in cash or got in goods?-It was got in goods entirely.

3069. The items of that do not appear here?-No. When we are busy we scarcely have time to enter all the items; but at other times, when we are not so busy, we enter them all.

3070. It is a rule in your business that you do not give lines for a balance of that kind?-Yes.

3071. You do not give them on a purchase of goods either?-No.

3072. Do the purchases of goods from parties who do not knit with your worsted appear in any of your books?-No; unless a balance is left, and it appears in the end of the day-book where I now point it out. [Showing.] On page 38 there is the account of Helen Arcus, our dresser.

3073. Is that Mrs. Arcus who has been examined?-No; she does not dress for us. That account of Helen Arcus is entirely for dressing.

3074. Is it settled by goods?-No. I wish to explain how we deal with her. She gets out a quantity of shawls and veils or neckties to dress. When they are finished, she brings them down to our hosiery shop where we keep our hosiery and she gets the amount marked on a bit of a line with which she goes to the other shop. I ask her what she wants and perhaps if the amount is 8s. 71/2d. she will ask for a quarter pound of tea for 10d. I then ask her what she wants next, and she says, 'I want 2s. or 3s. in cash.' There is then a balance left, which I mark in the book thus 'By 4s. 81/2d.,' which stands as a balance due to her. If she wants any cash in the interim between that time and the time when she brings down her dressing, she comes to the shop and gets cash, say 6d., or any goods she requires. She gets at the very least 5s. a week in cash all the year round. That does not appear in the book, but she gets whatever she asks.

3075. How do you balance the account when the time comes for doing that?-We add up the two sides of it.

3076. I see that each line in the account contains both debit and credit entries?-Yes, but there are two money columns at the end, and the entries are carried out to them according as they are debit or credit.

3077. How do you do with regard to sending goods south?-When we get orders for Shetland goods in the winter time, they go to our house in Edinburgh. We have already forwarded goods there, and they are kept in store; the orders received at that season are executed there, and a statement is sent down to us. This [producing document] is one of the statements which have been sent from Edinburgh for veils, and here [producing document] is another for shawls. I have brought a sample of each.

3078. The veils are numbered according to quality?-Yes. When we send them of different prices, there must be a different number, to let the people in the south know what the prices are.

3079. You fix the price here at which they are to be sold in Edinburgh?-Yes.

3080. That is the wholesale price?-Yes. Here is June 4: 4 dozen grey veils No. 1, 18s.-£3, 12s.; 4 dozen grey veils No. 6, 21s.- £4, 4s.; 3 dozen No. 7, 27s.-£4, 1s.

3081. Have these grey veils No. 1 been knitted for you by your own knitters?-The principal part of them; but we buy some.

3082. Show me one of the entries of the payment to a knitter for these veils?-I could scarcely show it for these identical veils.

3083. But for veils of the very same quality?-I should think this [showing] would be of the same quality: '10 veils, 9d.-Barbara Pottinger, Burra Isle.'

3084. Then the No. 1 veil which you sell at 1s. 6d. would cost 9d. for the knitting?-We pay 9d. for the knitting of it.

3085. You give out the worsted: what will that cost?-I should think for the coarsest, about 5d.

3086. Would that be the price you pay for it, or the price you would ask for it from a knitter?-It is the price we pay for it; it is Shetland wool.

3087. Which you don't sell?-Which we don't sell. We sell no kinds of wool.

3088. What does the veil cost you for dressing?-11/2d.

3089. Is there any other expense connected with?-There is not on that identical veil, but there is other expense connected with the trade.

3090. Have you to pay freight?-Not freight; but when we get a quantity of goods of that kind, perhaps one-half of them cannot be sold as they are. The colour is so uneven, that we have to send them south and dye a great part of them.

3091. Do you send one-half of each lot south?-Sometimes one-half, and sometimes more and sometimes less.

3092. What is the cost of dyeing?-We pay 1s. a dozen for dyeing; and there is the freight south and the freight back again, and we require to re-dress a great many of them.

3093. So that some of these veils may actually cost you 1s. 6d.?- Yes; and some of them cost less.

3094. What margin of profit does that leave?-I really cannot say. I think no Shetland merchant can tell the exact profit he has on any of his goods.

3095. But there are a number of incidental expenses of that kind, which bring the actual cost of the veils up to about 1s. 6d. apiece?-Yes.

[Page 69]

3096. May that be said with regard to other goods also?-It can be said of shawls.

3097. You think the expenses of that kind for sending south, and dyeing and re-dressing, often make the cost of production nearly equal to the selling price?-Yes; and in many cases more than the selling price.

3098. How much wool would there be in a dozen of these Shetland veils?-I should say there would be twenty-one cuts of Shetland wool in a dozen No. 1 veils at 18s.

3099. What is the price of that Shetland wool per cut?-3d. is the price for a fairish quality. Some of the veils turn out very bad from the 3d. worsted, while others turn out to be a little better.

3100. Therefore the worsted costs 5s. 3d., the knitting 9s., and the dressing 1s. 6d.: that leaves 2s. 3d. What proportion of these veils can go to the market without any dyeing or re-dressing?-I don't think there will be more than half of them. The worsted looks very well before it is given out to the knitter; but when it comes back, there are dark and light bars through it.

3101. Then upon one-half of them you have the expense of a double freight to Edinburgh, and also the expense of dyeing and of re-dressing?-Yes.

3102. But it is only a fraction of those sent south require to be re-dressed when they come back?-They all require to be re-dressed when they come back from the dyers.

3103. What dyers do you send them to?-P. & P. Campbell, Cockburn Street, Edinburgh.

3104. What is their charge for dyeing?-I think it 1s. 6d.; but they give 5 per cent. off at the end of the season.

3105. Coming to the English wool; I see there are four dozen black veils No. 5s. 33s., made with English wool: what quantity of wool is required to make dozen of these?-It requires about 3 oz. for a dozen, or about a quarter oz. to make a single veil.

3106. Do you sell that wool by the ounce or the pound?-We buy it by the pound, at 32s. 6d.

3107. Then 3 oz. would cost about 6s.?-Yes; a fraction over that. We don't give them to the knitters here; we give them to a person in the country, who gets them knitted for us. We pay 14s. for the knitting of them to that person in the country.

3108. Is there any particular reason for employing a party in the country for that kind of goods?-We think we can get them better done in that district of the country.

3109. Where is that?-In Unst.

3110. Who is your agent there?-It is a private person. I would rather not tell her name in public.

3111. What is the expense of dressing these veils?-1s. 6d. a dozen.

3112. Does the same proportion of them require dyeing as in the other case?-No; none of these require dyeing, because they are black.

3113. Then there is no expense for dyeing with regard to them?- Very seldom.

3114. Is that sum of 21s. 6d. the whole cost of production of these veils?-No.

3115. What additional cost is there?-There is about the same proportion of them both in the knitting and in the dressing that gets damaged, we cannot get the prices for them that we allow for the knitting.

3116. Do you mean that such a large proportion of them are destroyed in the knitting and the dressing, that you cannot sell them?-Yes; we cannot sell them at very much more than half-price.

3117. What proportion of them are so damaged?-I cannot say exactly; but I should think about the same proportion as in the other case.

3118. Therefore the high price you put upon these veils is intended to cover the loss incurred in that way?-Yes.

3319. The damage, I understand, occurs in the dressing?-Yes; and in the knitting too. There are a good many black lumps in the wool, and the people are very careless, and knit in the black lumps, and thus destroy the veils.

3120. Under what description do you sell these damaged veils?- As job lots; but I wish to state that the woman whom we employ in this way is a dealer, and we have to give the goods to her at a very great reduction. We have to give them to her at the wholesale price. The goods which we pay for the knitting are sold much cheaper to her than to others.

3121. You pay this woman in goods?-Yes; at wholesale prices. It is almost the same as cash, because we have to give the goods so much cheaper.

3122. Does she keep a shop?-No; but she deals in a small way. I think she has a room in which she has some small things. It is in one sense a shop, and in another it is not.

3123. Do you require as much as 11s. 6d. to cover what you lose on the job lots?-I think we do.

3124. Have you any books here which show an entry of a job lot of that kind?-I don't have them here.

3125. How does that appear in your books?-They are entered as so many dozen veils job.

3126. They are entered in that way in your day-book as sent south to your correspondent in Edinburgh?-Yes; there are a good many of the same kind of veils, which having to lie over the season get crushed, and are taken back and re-dressed, and sent south again.

3127. But losses of that kind occur in all trades, I suppose?-I suppose so.

3128. You said you would charge for a job lot about half-price?- Less than half-price.

3129. Can you calculate how many job lots there would be out of say ten dozen of these black veils?-I have often taken one-half of them out for job lots.

3130. Do you say that, as a rule, there would be five dozen job lots in ten dozen black veils?-Very often there are that number.

3131. Would that be an average?-I think average is scarcely so high, but very near it.

3132. Then, of all the black veils No. 5 sent to your correspondent in Edinburgh, nearly one-half will be job lots?-Yes; of the one kind of veils-that is-the finest kind. There are very few of the cheaper veils jobbed in the same way,

3133. Why are there so many of them in these fine veils?-The worsted is so fine, that they get torn, and the slightest mistake injures them.

3134. Will you show me an entry of some veils of the medium quality?-Here [showing] is an entry of No. 7 veils at 24s.: these are Shetland wool.

3135. I would rather take a case where English wool was used?-I don't think there is any case of that kind there. No. 2 is the only one very near it of English wool.

3136. Here [showing] is an entry of four dozen black veils No. 2, 21s.: what would the cost of wool be there?-About 10s. 6d, per pound.

3137. What quantity of wool would be required for a dozen?-I think 1 oz. would make three veils.,

3138. Then 4 oz. would make a dozen; that is 2s. 71/2d. as the cost of wool for a dozen?-Yes.

3139. What would be the cost of knitting a dozen?-12s. in goods.

3140. And of dressing?-1s. 6d.

3141. Have you to dye these?-No; we don't dye them.

3142. Is there the same risk of loss from their being spoiled as in the other case?-Not quite the same; but there are a certain number of job lots there too.

3143. What proportion of job lots may there be in that sort of veil?-Generally from one-eighth to one-fourth of the whole.

3144. Do these sell at half-price, or more than half-price?- Generally about half-price-sometimes a shade less and sometimes a shade more, according to the state of the market.

3145. Then the price you charge for them, 21s. is calculated to cover the loss upon job lots?-Yes.

3146. There is thus a difference of nearly 5s. between the cost price and the selling price of these No. 2 veils: is it not the fact that that difference is allowed for profit?-It is the fact that it is not allowed for a profit: the profit is not so much.

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3147. But it is calculated so as to allow you a certain amount of profit?-Yes; a certain amount.

3148. That is not the actual profit receive; but the price is so calculated as to cover the loss upon job lots and to allow you a certain amount of profit as well?-Yes.

3149. In fact, so as to make it safe that you may get some profits- Yes.

3150. Is that not so with the prices, of all your hosiery goods?- With the lace goods that we get knitted it is the case. We only put out lace goods to be knitted; we buy all the other goods over the counter.

3151. What do you mean by lace goods?-Lace shawls and veils, principally, and neckties.

3152. Do you call all the open lace goods Shetland goods, whether they are made of English or Shetland wool?-Yes.

3153. This [showing] is an invoice of shawls?-Yes.

3154. Is there any material difference, with respect to the shawls, from the calculations with regard to the cost of production and profit which we have just made with respect to the veils?-I think it is very similar.

3155. It comes to something like the same thing?-Yes; but the difference is not quite so marked.

3156. You think there is not so much difference in the cost to you, in the case of shawls, as in the case of veils?-No; because we don't get job shawls, and we don't require to guard against that.

3157. Are there no job shawls at all?-It is extremely seldom that there are any.

3158. Therefore, in that case, you require to make the margin less?-Yes.

3159. What do you think would be the percentage of profit upon the lots of veils and shawls mentioned in this account [showing]?-I really could not say. I am quite sure that no person in the trade could tell that.

3160. You have never made an exact calculation of it?-Never.

3161. Can you give me an approximation to it? Will it be 10 per cent.?-Yes; it will be more.

3162. Will it be under 15?-I think it will be.

3163. That is not taking into consideration the fact that they are paid for in goods?-There is nothing like 15 per cent. in that view. I am taking the whole profit in every way connected with them.

3164. But the question I am asking is, whether, calculating the cost of production in money as I have done just now, and calculating the selling price in money, the profit realized upon these two invoices you have handed to me will amount to 10 or 15 per cent.?-I don't exactly understand the question.

3165. We have been calculating the cost of the article to you?- Yes; and the real cost to us, I would say the profit will be 15 per cent.

3166. Then, in addition to that, you sell goods to the parties who bring in the articles?-Not in addition to that.

3167. You don't mean to say that you give your goods in return for these articles at cost price?-No, we don't.

3168. You have a profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we don't have a separate profit of 15 per cent. on the hosiery.

3169. But the purpose of the calculations we have been going into just now is to show what the hosiery costs?-Yes; what is the cost to Mr. Linklater.

3170. How do you get at the actual cost?-I cannot get at it exactly. I really don't know what it is.

3171. But when you say you pay a woman 10s. for knitting, that is marked down in your book as the price paid to her for knitting, just in the same way as if it had been paid in money?-Yes; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. of profit on these goods over and above the profit we have on the goods given to the knitter.

3172. But, setting aside in the meantime the fact that the women are paid in goods, and supposing that the 10s. entered in your book is paid to the knitter in cash, do you mean to say that your profit is not 10 or 15 per cent.?-If it was cash, I should say it was 10 or 15 per cent.,-on some things a little more, and on some things a little less.

3173. I am speaking of the hosiery exclusively at present; but in point of fact the 10s. that is entered in your book as the cost of knitting is invariably, or almost invariably, settled for by means of goods on the other side of the account?-Yes.

3174. Are these goods charged to the knitter at wholesale prices or at retail prices?-At retail prices.

3175. Then that retail price implies that there is a profit on the goods?-That is what I am saying; but I say that we don't have 15 per cent. profit on the shawls, and a profit on the goods besides. I say that if we were paying the actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, then we might have 15 per cent. of profit.

3176. Do you mean that if you were paying actual cash for the knitting of the shawls, you would allow smaller profit on your goods?-I do.

3177. Then when you said with regard to the grey veils No. 1, at 18s., that the cost of knitting was 9s. a dozen, that payment to the knitter was higher than if you paid her in cash?-Yes.

3178. How much higher?-I think that one would not be safe in that case to pay more than 7s. or 7s. 6d., but some knitters make rather better things than others. Of course that is only my own opinion, and it is a thing I have never discussed either one way or another.

3179. You don't sell the Shetland worsted?-No.

3180. And you say an average price for it is 3d. a cut?-Yes; fine worsted may be from 3d. to 6d. a cut.

3181. The payment for that is generally in goods?-No, it is generally in cash, but we do sometimes get it for goods.

3182. You pay for it generally in cash: how do you account for that deviation from your general practice in Shetland?-We buy a good lot of it from merchants, and there are a good many old women who spin for a living, who we think require the cash. There is also such a demand for it that we are very glad to get it for cash, when the market is generally overstocked with everything else.

3183. Is there much Shetland wool sold in the southern markets?-No; we only send very small quantities of it south, for darning purposes.

3184. Are you aware whether there are merchants in Shetland, either in Lerwick or in the country, who send Shetland wool to the southern markets?-I know it has been sent from Yell.

3185. To a large extent?-No; it is not produced to a large extent. All that is produced in Shetland is very trifling.

3186. How did it happen to be sent from Yell?-Because a hosiery merchant in the south, who was selling their goods, got an order for worsted, and it was sent to him. I only know or that one instance.

3187. Was it sent by a proprietor?-I am not sure. It was Mr. Pole of Greenbank who sent it. I rather think his father is proprietor of Greenbank. Mr. Pole is now at Mossbank.

3188. What is the cost per pound of that worsted which sells at 3d. per cut?-Ordinary good 3d. worsted should be about 20s. a pound.

3189. Therefore it is not so dear as the English worsted?-It is much dearer.

3190. But there is some of the English worsted high as 32s. a pound?-Yes; but we have bought Shetland wool at 96s.

3191. Is that the finest quality of Shetland worsted?-Yes

3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid 7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12 cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard long, or scarcely so much.

3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes.

3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes

3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?- Yes.

3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions there is a slight discount given for ready cash.

3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1.

3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price which we pay.

3199. Have you two shops?-Yes.

3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle for it.

3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery shop.

3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she would go to the other shop to see if we were there.

3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s. R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other shop, where it is settled at once.

3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not, she is settled with all the same.

3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity.

3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it.

3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we don't sell much.

3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not know what another merchant's goods are sold for.

3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and 10d. per quarter.

3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes.

3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes sold in half ounces.

3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be ascertained. [Produces list.]

3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I find from the index in our workers' book that the number is upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is not represented by the number that is found collectively in the books of the employers.

3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of it; but I don't believe that it happened

3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing.

3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your statement on the other side?-Quite so.

3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my books.

3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up with her, that she was not behind.

3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but not very often. Now we always separate them.

3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did not consider that it was real Shetland goods.

3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly. Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real Shetland wool.

3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so.

3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where, as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned. These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not Shetland.

3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted.

3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour when we buy them in the piece.

3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes.

3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash.

3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No.

3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things. Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both shops, so far as I remember.

[Page 72]

3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery; while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands, unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience they were a thing which did not pay.

3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them; but we do not charge so high for them as in the south.

3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost, crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them.

3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any inducement of that kind.

3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?- We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers. When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all.

3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes.

3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I don't require to send it south.

3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland; but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of the thing being done.

3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that, except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream.

3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No; there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s. as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As, however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s. 6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite correct.

3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr. Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I did.

3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell to private individuals.

3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very extensive establishment in Edinburgh.

3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than balances the other. If our customers in the south were private individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether.

Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined.

3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes.

3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery.

3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes.

3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given to?-No; we keep no note of their names.

3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where I know that they have been given by that party to another party, just the same as sending them an errand.

3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No; they would never mention such a thing to us.

3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the shilling for them from my father.

3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil. My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she took that and went away.

3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they got in goods.

3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.

3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.

3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.

3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the knitter?-Yes.

3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.

3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.

3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account simply, without any line?-Yes.

3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop, and read the items over to them when we settle.

3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.

3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods may enter them.

3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.

3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?- Yes, by the clerk.

3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and mark the goods in ourselves.

3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.

3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case where they were getting goods for another person. If they had been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in order to show the person who sent them what they had got.

3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed, because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is taking its place.

3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.

3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.

3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands, that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is deteriorating very much.

3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.

3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted by people.

3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the people very often making complaints that they could not get wool at all from any source.

3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.

3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.

3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally wants ready money for it.

3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale prices, or the cash.

3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.

3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in Dunrossness.

3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods made there.

3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating where the worsted was spun.

3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.

3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.

3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is got.

3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.

3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.

3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in goods.

3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I should say.

3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large shawls were paid for in that way.

3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.: what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.