Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (28)

7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable circumstances.

7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who are indebted, your information is derived from their own statements, and you say that you think generally these statements are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements can be expected to be; but I have my information from other sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well as I know them myself.

7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about his affairs?-Yes.

7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other way.

7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took place.

7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners, may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.

7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally, more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor, were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.

7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180] should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.

7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.

7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.

7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a population such as the general Shetland population. He had to leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said, 'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a consequence of that sort of dealing.

7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes. What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.

7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the whole population of Shetland.

7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their sentiments quite well upon the subject.

7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.

7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him. The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy, perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be immoral.

7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how destructive the system is to the morality of the common people, and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give the illustration without mentioning him.

7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be its effects.

7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I would have told him that every man should pay his debts.

7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no such thing.

7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?- Distinctly.

7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.

7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I knew nothing more about it than that.

7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you did not inquire further?-Quite so.

7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the account, or what it was for, or anything about it.

7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.

7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it than that.

7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were examined yesterday?-I did.

7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct description of their circumstances, and of the system on which they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to have given, and which they had given to me in private.

7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.

7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and which were rather different from the statements she made here: did she make any different statement to you at any time from what she made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them, gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that they should have given, and I know the reason why.

7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181] statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses. It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very few exceptions.

7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in debt to the shop, less or more.

7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against the facts that I know with regard to the people.

7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very different feeling among the people.

7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.

7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?

7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?- I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome competition would be introduced, which I think would be an advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.

7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small) shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more, they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.

7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality he is selling for another.

7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it all my life.

7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them, because there is no competition at all.

7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.

7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with the articles after they get them.

7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too. The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people by the nature of their early training.

7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one who is connected with the country must see it as well.

7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?- I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me. She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the coffin or at her grave.

7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived. I think one of them lived about half-way between this and Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.

7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early training produced by the system of credit.

7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for themselves?-Where?

7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No; they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants, are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the children there when they came home were not made to pay for their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered into the family again the same as they were before they went out. They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.

7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they require them.

7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here. They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.

7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do that without being in debt.

7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does here.

7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that could be produced.

7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes. I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr. Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.

7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question 44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with that entirely.

7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?- That is the case, so far as I know.

7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs, and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I would meet her again coming back, and among other things she would have a little bag with her in which there would be some hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back in exchange for the eggs.

7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that these articles do not form part of the husband's account.

7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it. Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.

7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr. Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the independence of the people very much; with that I entirely agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.

7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted, and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands, and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said, 'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get 5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life, and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am determined to do everything you have advised, and that money shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out, and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.

7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all gone.

7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.

7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least, they can only get clothing for their knitting.

7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.

7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that is not the case here.

7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both here and at Lerwick.

7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing, and he told me.

7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said: 'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to take them into Lerwick.'

7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails, or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But what have they said?

7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one man here who was not by any means a representative of the ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among whom he lives.

7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or two?-Not very many.

7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer people have appeared here than at other places with even less population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks. Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's appreciation of the value of debt.

7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that wholly and to nothing else.

7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from Ollaberry.

7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about your condition before: will you come now and give information about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it, as it would just make their case worse.

7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the poor people of this country.

7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.

7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.

7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter, and have been speaking to people about coming forward and giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.

7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark. If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me except in the dark.

7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; but some years there is a good deal of it.

7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can spare to me.

7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are many others.

7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular article I purchase it here.

7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from the south?-So far as I know, it is.

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7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.

7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge upon their goods.

7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am not accusing him at all.

7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is the system I object to.

7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known several cases of that kind.

7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, in order to correct this evil.

7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end of it.

7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.

7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.

7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.

7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.

7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that purpose that charity is given in the south?

7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for which the subscription was made. The money was collected by the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.

7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give more cases the same kind.

7584. That was not a case where the money came from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private subscription. I knew another case where several boats were lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop. That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.

7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for Shetland?

7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing for such a purpose as that money was applied to.

7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave 10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was quite correct.

7588. How long was that after the subscription had been collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.

7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'

7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was paid to the merchant at Hillswick.

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7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?' 'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'

7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a couple of years.

7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to the merchant.'

7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.

7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.

7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such thing.

7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's account, but that it was only done in a case where the account was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.

7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.

7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this morning?-I did.

7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.