Chapter V: Excerpt From Report of Mr. Peterkin, General Inspector of Board (35)

9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece.

9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?- That is the only book we keep there.

9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a woman's book at Greenbank.

9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the kelp-book by itself.

9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No.

9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making the kelp at Greenbank.

9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only about nine tons.

9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash.

9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware that it is, but I cannot speak as to that.

9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at Mossbank.

9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over, the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the fish-book.

9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book at Gloup?-Yes.

9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?- Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there.

9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop account in one part of our business premises, and their slump account, as it were, in another part.

9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop account?-Yes.

9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do not.

9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose they check it from their own memory.

9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No; they generally come about settling time.

9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank.

9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?- Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes them back with him when he goes back.

9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who settles the whole account.

9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes.

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9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your transactions first pass into it before being carried into the ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it.

9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save the trouble of posting.

9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No; they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them are in this parish.

9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if there were any properties of which members of the firm are tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr. Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen, and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten.

9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us, and most of them do so.

9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No; we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all.

9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes.

9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in one of your smacks?-We would.

9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is understood that these men will fish to us if we require them.

9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?- There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north district.

9376. The day-book and ledger and fish-book are, I understand, the only books which are used at Greenbank and Gloup?-At Gloup we have a sort of wastebook, in which any goods are entered which are bought by anybody during the season when we have goods there.

9377. But that is merely for the purpose of being carried into the permanent ledger at Greenbank or at Mossbank?-At Greenbank. These accounts, of course, are settled for at Gloup before the men leave there.

9378. Are these company accounts?-Some are company accounts and some are private accounts.

9379. Can a man have his private supplies at Gloup while he is residing there as well as his company supplies?-Yes.

9380. Have you a publican's licence for the premises at Greenbank?-No; we have a certificate for getting a licence if we wish to take it out, but we have not taken it out for years. I don't care for selling liquor, and therefore I do not take it out.

9381. How do the men get supplies of that kind: is there a public-house in the district?-No.

9382. Therefore they must buy in a stock of spirits when they want them?-I suppose so; but they very temperate class altogether. I don't think they use much liquor.

9383. Do they not require it at the station and when they are going to fish?-At the station we allowed to keep a small quantity of liquor, with which to supply our fishermen during the season.

9384. Is that under the Excise regulations?-I understand it is. It is my brother who takes charge of these matters; but I understand the Excise permit us to have a small quantity, for the purpose of supplying our fishermen only.

9385. Are your supplies of provisions and soft goods at Greenbank furnished from Mossbank, or do you get them direct from the wholesale merchants?-Generally we get them direct from the wholesale merchants.

9386. Are they landed in Yell?-Yes.

9387. But I suppose they are invoiced to the firm at Mossbank?- Yes.

9388. From whom do you get your principal supplies of meal and flour?-I should prefer to give the names privately. [Writes the names of two firms.]

9389. I see in your ledger the account of Lawrence Danielson, Houlland: is that a fisherman?-Yes.

9390. I observe that cash is sometimes entered in his account: does he come to you when he wants a small advance of cash for any immediate need?-Yes.

9391. Are applications of that kind common, or does a man generally get on without cash until settlement?-Occasionally a man may require a little advance in cash, but, as a general rule, any cash which we give out is at the time when the fishermen settle. After man has settled his account, he perhaps does not have as much money as he requires, and he may wish small advance, and it is generally given to him. He may also get a trifle occasionally at other times in the season, but it is generally about that time that the bulk of advances in cash are made.

9392. Do you square off your accounts in the ledger after settlement?-No; before the settlement.

9393. Then the entry here on November 27th, 'By Mossbank ledger, so much,' means what?-It means that the account there was transferred to the Mossbank ledger.

9394. And that indicates the amount which the man was entitled to receive in cash, unless there was something standing against him in the Mossbank ledger as well?-Certainly; there might be a balance against him there.

9395. 'By amount of Gloup account, £1, 13s: 11d.:' was that entirely for his supplies at Gloup during the fishing season?-That was for the amount of his private account at Gloup; and that account, as I have said, is settled between him and our factor at Gloup, and is entered here.

9396. I see entries of meal, 1s. 5d. and 5s. 8d.: what quantity of meal would that be which is charged 5s. 8d.?-It would be a lispund, or four pecks.

9397. What is the quantity charged 1s. 5d.?-One peck, or eight lbs.

9398. Was that the selling price of your meal last summer?-Yes, by the peck.

9399. Do you charge less when a larger quantity is taken?-Yes; we charge sometimes 1s. or 1s. 3d. and sometimes as much as 2s. less per boll. The price per boll would be somewhere about 25s. or 26s. when the lispund was at 5s. 8d.

9400. What did you sell meal at per boll last summer?-It is very rarely that I sell bolls at Greenbank. Generally when a quantity of that kind is required, we order it direct from the south, and it is charged to the men at Mossbank.

9401. Do you purchase hosiery at Greenbank?-We do very little in that way.

9402. I see one woman credited in the ledger with shawl: is that an exceptional transaction?-Yes, most exceptional transaction. We used to do a good deal in hosiery, but we found it was a very bad speculation, and so we gave it up. We were losing money by it every year: we would have been in the debtors' prison, I suppose, if we had continued to go on with that trade.

9403. Are the women's accounts for kelp kept in the same book?-Yes; if a woman is to be credited with kelp it is entered there.

9404. Do you purchase wool?-No; but we have some sheep: at least I had the management of some sheep this season, and I sold the wool for behoof of the party who owned the sheep.

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9405. When you employ people to work for you, are they paid at the time, or at the settlement?-We sometimes pay them at the time, and sometimes at settlement.

9406. Are people employed in curing fish always paid at settlement?-Not wholly. We have a class of hands who are paid by beach fees, and another class whom we employ as day labourers, and we pay these either daily, weekly, or monthly, or whenever they like.

9407. Or at settlement, if they have an account?-Not necessarily. Some of them may have an account, and yet be paid daily.

9408. I see in the ledger that one woman is credited on July 1st, 'By work in full, 7s. 7d.,' and the account is made up: that work, I suppose, only went into the account. What kind of work would it be?-It was dressing worsted.

9409. Then, on January 14, there is, 'By work, 3s. 2d.:' was that dressing worsted also?-So far as I recollect, it was.

9410. I see here a special entry, 'By dressing, 3s. 9d?'-That is the same thing only differently expressed. That woman dresses any little worsted we may buy.

9411. Was that hosiery goods?-No; it was the worsted itself, the yarn.

9412. Do you buy the yarn ready made, or do you give the wool out to be spun?-We buy it ready spun and dress it, and send it south.

9413. You don't get it made up?-We do not.

9414. But the dressing here is paid for on the same principle of accounting which you adopt in your transactions with the fishermen?-Just in the same way.

9415. And you just settle for it at the end of the year?-Not at the end of the year; just whenever the woman likes.

9416. I see that this balance has been made at March 31, and another balance is made in April, and another in July?-Yes.

9417. Are the sales of fish transacted by you at Greenbank, or through the firm at Mossbank?-Through the firm at Mossbank entirely.

9418. Are you generally acquainted with the transactions in that department?-No. I may happen to know occasionally about some things; but I don't know particularly, as a general rule.

9419. Do you know the price at which the fish were sold last year?-I have an idea about what it was, but I could not say the exact figure.

9420. Do you know to whom they were sold? Were any of them sent to Spain?-I am not aware that any were sent to Spain. I don't think there were any sent abroad at all. I think they were all sold in Scotland and Shetland.

9421. Who buys from you in Shetland?-Mr. Joseph Leask at Lerwick; he is a very large fishbuyer.

9422. Why do you not sell your fish direct to the south?-I suppose we find it to be an advantage to sell to him. The Greenbank fish were all sold to him last year, and I believe some were sold from Mossbank too, but I could not say the exact amount.

9423. Can you explain how the current price of the season is ascertained, according to which you settle with your fishermen?- I cannot explain it exactly; but I believe some of the curers may correspond with one another about what they consider to be a fair price.

9424. Did you sell last year at the same price as your neighbours, Spence & Co.?-I don't know.

9425. If there is a difference in the price obtained by two or three neighbouring firms for their fish, do you strike an average in order to deal with your fishermen, or how is it that the fishermen are settled with?-I am not aware that there is any average struck. I think, as a general rule, the fishermen are paid to the full extent of the highest price realized by the large curers.

9426. Suppose you were selling 10s. or £1 a ton cheaper than your nearest neighbours, in consequence perhaps of having to sell earlier, or when the market was in a depressed state?-Such it thing occurs sometimes.

9427. Would you in that case settle with your fishermen according to the price obtained by the other party?-Certainly.

9428. Is that an invariable rule?-In my experience it has been the rule.

9429. Is that because the fishermen are sure to find out who got the highest price and would be dissatisfied, or is it part of the understanding that it is the highest current price according to which they are to be paid?-I believe the fishermen generally understand that they are to be paid according to the highest price.

9430. Then if a merchant is specially fortunate and gets a price much higher than the ordinary prices of the year, does that regulate the whole prices throughout Shetland so far as the fishermen are concerned?-I should say not; but I think that is a thing that very rarely happens. I think the principal curers, so far as I know, get much about the same price for their fish. There may be a slight variation here and there, but it small.

9431. They will get pretty much the same, I fancy, if they sell in Shetland to one gentleman or two?-Yes; but I am not aware that they all do that.

9432. Do you ever sell any fish for exportation to Spain?-I cannot say that we have ever sold any for that purpose. No doubt some of the fish we have sold may have gone to Spain indirectly.

9433. But you have not sent them there on your own account?- No.

9434. I presume the bulk of the transactions at Greenbank are credit transactions, and enter the ledger?-No. We do a great deal in cash payments.

9435. Is that with fishermen?-In some cases with our own fishermen, and in other cases with other people. We do a considerable business across the counter for ready money. I should say that in our shop business we sell as much goods for cash and butter and eggs, and so forth, as we do for fish.

9436. Are these cash transactions, as they may be called, speaking generally, with the same parties, or with different parties from those whose names appear in the book as having got goods which are set against their fish?-In some cases they would be with the same parties, and in other cases with others. For example, it is generally women that we buy yarn from, and it is very often women who bring us eggs and butter.

9437. Do you settle the whole of these transactions at the time?- Yes, as a general rule.

9438. But these women may have an account which enters the women's book?-We keep no women's book.

9439. Then when a woman does deal with you that way, she settles her transactions at once?-Generally at once.

9440. When you sell a quarter lb. of tea, or a lispund of meal, or a bit of cotton over the counter in a ready money transaction, is the same price charged as if it were entering the book?-Exactly the same, in all cases.

9441. Does it not follow from that that your profit upon the transactions which enter the book and are settled for at the end of the year is much less than what you make upon the cash transactions?-If we were to make no bad debts, it would not be much less. It would be much the same.

9442. Would it not be less in this way, that you might turn your money over twice before these accounts were settled, and you would either have the interest for the year or you might make another profit?-True; but the rate of interest is so exceedingly small at present, that the money is worth scarcely anything at all.

9443. I suppose it is a consideration in that matter that if you lose the interest upon the money that is invested in goods, you gain by the interest upon the money that is not paid to the men until the end of the season?-There is not much gain there, because we have often to pay the fishermen their money some months before we receive it.

9444. When are your fish sales made?-Towards the end of September or beginning of October, and they are generally made on a three months bill.

9445. That is on a bill payable in January, and the [Page 228] men are settled with in December?-In the end of November or 1st of December.

9446. So that the men are paid a month before you receive the proceeds of your fish sales?-Yes, a month or two.

9447. In that way, therefore you do not stand upon an equality with the men in the matter of interest, but on all these credit sales of goods you are losing interest?-Looking at it in that way, that would be so.

9448. I should have thought it not unreasonable that you should have a discount for these cash payments: why have you not?-I believe the reason is, that there is a great difficulty in having two prices for your goods-I mean honestly.

9449. You think the people would complain?-Not only would the people complain, but I am afraid your own conscience would cry out sometimes.

9450. Why should your conscience cry out if you are really equalizing the two classes of buyers?-The buyer who does not pay until November has the advantage of having his money in hand, and of getting an advance made to him on credit; whereas the buyer who pays you in March or in April for the same goods which the other man does not pay for until November, gives you his money six or eight or ten months sooner, and you have the advantage of having the money in your pocket, and you could make of it, as the case may be: is not that so?-Yes. A discount might be taken off if we could decide upon a certain percentage to take off for cash; but I believe the reason we have never done anything in that way is, that if you once begin to make an alteration, there is a great difficulty in fixing your prices, and a difficulty in sticking to an exact rate. Perhaps you will allow me to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I go into a shop and ask for a cloth jacket, and the jacket is brought down. I am well acquainted with the price of these goods, but I have plenty of impudence, and I beat down the price until the seller consents to give me the jacket at 3s. less than he asked at first. Then my brother, who is a quiet man, goes in and asks for jacket exactly the same. Perhaps he gets five per cent. taken off, which would be 1s. 6d., and he pays cash for it. That would be 1s. 6d. of an advantage to me, and I consider that it would be unfair and dishonest to him.

9451. But you get out of that difficulty by raising the price a little to everybody?-We do not. We just price our goods at what we consider to be a living profit, and we do not sell them at less than that to anybody.

9452. Are not your prices fixed, in the first instance, at such a figure as you calculate would cover the risk of bad debts upon your credit transactions, and also the loss of interest upon the money?-I cannot say that they are. We try to make as few bad debts as possible, and I cannot say that the prices are fixed with a view to that at all.

9453. Are the goods invoiced to you at Greenbank from Mossbank?-They are all invoiced from Mossbank.

9454. At the cost price, or at the price at which you are to sell them?-At the retail price.

9455. Have you known many cases of fishermen leaving your employment and going to other merchants?-No; as a general rule, fishermen continue in our employment for a very long time. No doubt there exceptions.

9456. I suppose there is a difficulty sometimes in man changing because of its disarranging the boat's crew?-In some cases there is.

9457. Do you know of any cases in which single men have come to you from other employers within the last half-dozen years?-I cannot speak for the last half-dozen years. I can only speak particularly for two years.

9458. Within that time have you got many men coming to you from other merchants?-There have been a few.

9459. Have these men generally been clear of debt to their former employers when they came to you?-So far as I know, they have.

9460. They have not asked you to undertake, their debts, or to advance them money with which to pay their debts to their former employers?-No. I have no case of that kind in my mind at present.

9461. Does any arrangement exist between you and any other fish-merchant, to the effect that a man leaving the one merchant and seeking employment with the other shall have his debt cleared off by the new employer?-There is no such arrangement between us and any other employer.

9462. Do you know of any case in which that has been done?-I cannot say that I do. Such a thing might have occurred, but there is no case of that sort which has come within my own knowledge.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, THOMAS WILLIAMSON, examined.

9463. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Seafield?-I am. I have been there for a short time. I commenced with the fishing in 1871, and I commenced for myself there as a merchant on 20th May 1870.

9464. Where had you been before?-I was shopman for one year before to the man who had the place previously-Magnus Mouat.

9465. Before that where had you been?-In 1867 and 1868 I was in Robert Mouat's shop at Coningsburgh as his shopman, but he took charge of the shop chiefly himself. I was not quite two years there.

9466. I understand the men in that neighbourhood were under an obligation to fish to Mouat, who was the tacksman of the property?-I cannot say about that. I did not know anything about their private matters.

9467. Do you mean to say that you were shopman to Mouat for two years and did not know that?-I did not know their private affairs, whether they were bound or not. I saw the men fishing, but I could not say whether they were under an obligation to fish for him more than for any other one.

9468. Did you not know of any cases in which men were threatened or ejected for not fishing for him, or for selling their fish to other merchants?-I was not aware of that at the time I was there.

9469. Were the men's accounts with Mouat settled annually in the same way as they are in other places in Shetland?-Yes, during the time I was there.

9470. Had you anything to do with settling these accounts?-No; he settled with the men himself.

9471. Did you keep the books in which the goods taken from the shop were entered?-Yes; the daybook.

9472. Do you remember anything about the prices charged there?-They varied, just as they did at other places.

9473. Were you aware at the time that the prices charged in Mouat's shop were much higher than those at other places?- I cannot say that they were higher for a country shop.

9474. Were they dearer than are charged in this neighbourhood now?-I cannot say that they were for the groceries; but indeed they would require to have been dearer, because he had to take his goods overland at a heavy expense from Lerwick. It was pretty expensive keeping a horse and cart for that purpose, and taking his goods down on a winter day. When he did not do that, he had either to employ a sloop for himself, or a big six-oared boat.

9475. But you have to do that in many places in Shetland?-They do that throughout the mainland, in Quendale and other places.

9476. Did the men about Coningsburgh ever complain to you of the quality of the goods sold in Mouat's store?-Of course I might have heard a man complain, just as parties will do when buying goods. Some customers will always complain. They may perhaps despise the thing, and yet at the same time they like very well to take it, but they pretend not to want it in [Page 229] order to get it a little reduced in price. I don't think the goods were any dearer or any worse than in most country shops in Shetland, because they came from the south country, and from the same men from whom most country merchants in Shetland purchase.

9477. Did Mouat buy from a merchant in Aberdeen?-He got most of his soft goods from Mr. D. L. Shirras there.

9478. Where did he get his meal and flour?-Sometimes from Macduff in Banffshire, and sometimes from Tod Brothers, Stockbridge.

9479. Who was his merchant at Macduff?-I forget; I think it was Messrs. Laing. He had one cargo from them during the time I was there. I think Mr. Adie, Voe, had some in the vessel at the same time.

9480. Was the cargo landed at Coningsburgh?-Some of it, and some at other places, just as the party got orders for it.

9481. Did the cargo belong to Mouat, or was it a joint concern?-I cannot say.

9482. Where did he get his flour?-He did not get very much flour during the time I was there, except for house use.

9483. Where did he get his tea and groceries?-From Mackintosh & Co. Glasgow, and from Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.

9484. Did you ever know of any of Mouat's men getting money at the settlement?-Yes; those who had it to get got it, the year I was there.

9485. Were they sometimes paid by receipts or lines?-I cannot say how they were paid. The men, as they came out of the place where they had been settling, spoke about being paid.

9486. But you don't know whether they got cash?-No; they might have got a cheque on the bank. I only saw the entry in the ledger, of cash being paid in full.

9487. Your department was merely to sell in the shop?-Yes; and I was oftener travelling. I travelled a good deal buying up stock for him.

9488. Where were your principal purchases of stock made?-In winter they were chiefly at the Walls Martinmas sale.

9489. Was that in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh?-No, it was in the west side of Shetland; but Mouat would perhaps buy a beast or two in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh as he had orders for them.

9490. How were these cattle settled for?-Those that I bought were paid in money at the time. I cannot tell how he paid for those he bought himself.

9491. Were these cattle sent out of the country?-Some of them were, and others were re-sold in the country.

9492. Do you really think that upon the whole the stock of goods in Mouat's shop was as fair in quality as is usual in Shetland?-I could not say any other. The goods might have been lying for some time, and I could not tell what strength was in them, but they looked very well. They just looked like any goods that you would see brought into a country shop.

9493. I understand you have taken Mrs. Budge's premises at Seafield for curing and salting your fish?-Yes. Of course we had an understanding when we took them, that we were to have the men on equal terms with what they would get from another, but there was no more agreement about it. There is scarcely any man who could keep the premises there and carry on business in them without the privilege of having the men to fish for him. It would hardly have been fair to have made them fish for me unless they were as well served as by fishing for another; but I told them that I did not want any of them to fish for me unless they came voluntarily.

9494. Do you mean that the premises are inconveniently situated for such a business?-Of course. They lie so far inland that we require to have a push like that.

9495. And in order to get men to deliver their fish there, it is necessary that they should be under some sort of obligation?- We thought that unless the men had something to do at the place, it would not be worth keeping it. Of course you cannot very easily force a business there, without a few men that you can depend upon.

9496. Do you mean to force a business in the way of fish-curing, or in the way of selling goods or provisions?-Of course it would require a man with more capital than I have to force a business so far inland.

9497. But which do you mean; the fish-curing business, or the general business?-I mean the general business.

9498. I suppose the drapery and provision business depends very much on the success of the fish-curing business?-Yes. There is nothing else to depend upon. There are no works or anything like that in the neighbourhood.

9499. Do the men who are employed by you in the fishing live near your shop?-Yes.

9500. But you say that for fish-curing this is not a very convenient place, because it is too far inland?-I say it is not convenient for driving a business, unless you have some means to depend upon in the fishing or such like. There are not many people round about who could purchase goods over the counter, so that the business cannot be carried on in that way.

9501. But do you suppose that in any part of Shetland a good business over the counter could be carried on unless there were fishermen employed by the merchants?-Yes. I know places in Shetland where they do carry on a good business over the counter without having fishermen. For instance, they could do so in Unst.

9502. Don't merchants who try to establish a business find it exceedingly difficult to get on in the neighbourhood of a large merchant who has a number of fishermen employed, unless they have fishermen of their own?-No doubt but then there are some places a good distance from these large fish-curers where they could drive a very good business over the counter. Of course they could not make a large business of it, because there is not a large business to be done in Shetland.

9503. But they could make something if they were far enough away from the large fish-curers?-Yes.

9504. Still at any place I suppose it is an advantage for a merchant to be a fish-curer?-I don't know as to that. I cannot say much for it this year. Last year was my first year at it, and I had two boats.

9505. Did you not make a good thing of your fishing last year?- They did very well in the way of fishing, but I lost a good few lines and I had to pay most in cash. I paid the men cash down, and when they do not take their goods in return we make very little by the fish.

9506. Did the men not run accounts with you as they would do with another fish-curer?-No doubt some of them did, but some of them did not.

9507. Had they all cash to receive at the end of the year?-Yes.

9508. Was there not one of them who was in debt to you at the settlement?-Not one. The lowest had about £6 to get.

9509. Then you would not make so much of them as some merchants do?-I don't know as to that. I don't expect that I would make anything.

9510. Did you not expect to drive a fair business at Seafield?- Hardly, upon that footing.

9511. Are you not satisfied with your first year's trial here?- Sometimes we must be doing, although we are not satisfied with everything that comes across us. Sometimes we must just endure it, and hope for better success in another year.

9512. How do you account for your shop business not being larger last year?-The men were in pretty good circumstances, and perhaps they found that they could get their things a little cheaper in Lerwick, and they ran accounts there. Of course I could not sell so cheap as they do in Lerwick, because I was buying most of my goods there. I got part of my goods from the south, and part from Mr. Leask.

9513. Did you hear Mr. Laurence Williamson's evidence?-Yes.

9514. Do you make the same bargain with your fishermen about boats and lines and other things as he described?-The captain of the boat got something extra from me.

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9515. But did you give as much off the boat hire as a premium to the men?-No; but of course it came to the same thing. I got £4 for the boat and lines. Laurence Williamson charged £6, and of course I charged £6 too, but I gave the lines free to the captain of the boat, and £1, 6s., which is equal to £2.

9516. Do any of the men in your experience buy their boats and lines?-They do in other places but not on this island, so far as I am aware.

9517. And that is always a debt against a boat's crew at starting?- Yes. In Dunrossness the crew buy their boat and lines, and I believe in Whalsay too.

9518. Have you engaged your boats for next year?-Of course it was understood when I bought my new boats last year, that the men would continue to fish for me; and this year they have not said anything against continuing to fish.

9519. Therefore you will have the same two boats' crews of Mrs. Budge's tenants?-I hope so.

9520. It was an understanding between you and Mr. Sievwright when you took the premises that these men were to fish for you?- Yes.

9521. Was that understanding put into writing?-No.

9522. Have you any lease of the premises?-No. I have them taken from year to year.

9523. But it was understood in conversation between you and Mr. Sievwright that the men should fish for you?-Yes, that the men should fish on the same terms to me as they would to another person; but still I don't want any of the men who do not come to me voluntarily.

9524. Still you had no objection to the landlord bidding them fish for you?-None whatever.

9525. Were you aware of the letter being written which has been produced to-day?-Yes. I did not see it before it was sent, but I saw it in the hands of the man who produced it.

9526. Did you know it was to be written?-No. I did not know whether Mr. Sievwright was to ask them or to write to them.

9527. But it was quite understood between you and Mr. Sievwright that there was such an arrangement?-Yes, of course I spoke to Mr. Sievwright about it.

9528. And your rent was fixed on that footing?-No; my rent was fixed before that matter was spoken of. I spoke to Mrs. Budge first about it, and she advised me to try it, and said she thought the men would have no objection to fish for me more than to any other party.

9529. Had the premises been unlet for some time?-Yes.

9530. Magnus Mouat had them for two years before you?-Yes.

9531. Had they been unlet before that?-Yes, they were never let before.

9532. Why did Mouat leave?-He did not do very much in the place. He is in Unst now.

9533. Would you pay the same rent for your premises if that understanding did not exist about the men fishing for you?-No, I would not keep them at all.

9534. Why?-Because I could have nothing to do in them. I would have nobody buying anything from me.

9535. And you would have no men to fish for you?-No.

9536. Is that because you cannot get free men to fish for you, or is it because they prefer to fish for the big fish-curers?-When the men are engaged to the big fish-curers, if I were to go and ask them to come and fish for me then I would require to give them a better bargain than they have with the merchants by whom they are employed now, and if I were to do that it would take away all the profit I would have on the fish, and I would have to work for nothing. Therefore I would be as well to want them.

9537. How do you fix the current price at the end of the year?- That is a thing I am hardly able to tell.

9538. How did you manage to ascertain it last year?-My bargain with the men was to give them the current price of the country, and accordingly I did so. I ascertained what the big fish-curers were giving, and I regulated my price by theirs.

9539. You did not settle until you ascertained what price they were getting?-No, I settled just at the general time.

9540. But after you had found out what the large fish-curers were getting?-Yes.

9541. Did you sell to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

9542. Have you any difficulty in getting men employed by the large fish-curers because they are bound to them too?-No, it is not exactly that; but I have not so much money as these fish-curers, and if the men make two or three small fishings, the curers can help them with money or goods, while I could not afford to do that.

9543. You have not the means of carrying them through?-Of course I have not. Men who have been long in business and who have plenty of capital can manage to do the thing in different ways; and small shops like mine need not try to fight against the great.

9544. It was only the balances you paid in cash this year?-Yes; but some of the men had £7 or £8 before settlement time came, and some had before they went to the fishing at all.

9545. Then their accounts at the shop would be rather small on the whole: what would you say was about the average?-They ran from 5s. to £9.

9546. Did they get that in goods?-They could take it either in cash or in goods. When they did not want to take the goods, they got cash if I had it; and if I did not have it at the time, they had just to wait until I could make some shift to get it for them.

9547. Do you buy hosiery?-Very little. If I can get a little good worsted-yarn, that is all I buy.

9548. Who do you sell the yarn to?-All I have done in that is a mere trifle, as I have not been long in the business; but perhaps I take a parcel to Lerwick, and hawk it through the shops, and get goods in exchange which I want for my own business.

9549. Is it understood that you are to take the price out in goods?-Yes. Of course I may meet with a private individual who may buy a few good cuts of worsted from me for cash.

9550. Is the worsted you get generally of good quality?-It is generally thick worsted, worth 2d. or 3d. a cut.

9551. That is not the very finest Shetland worsted?-No. There is some of it as high as 6d. a cut.

9552. Do the merchants re-sell the worsted at the same price or do they charge a profit upon it?-I cannot say much about that; only I know that all that worsted and hosiery is a bad spec. to meddle with. If it lies any time it gets spoiled, and it is very difficult to get a market even for the best quality of it in the south.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT GILBERTSON, examined.

9553. You are a fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell?-Yes.

9554. Is that on the Gossaburgh estate?-No, it is on Mr. Hay's own property.

9555. Are you free to fish for anybody you like?-I have been so in time past, and I am so now, so far as I know.

9556. Have you ever fished for any person except Hay & Co.?- Yes. I fished five years for Mr. Sandison at Cullivoe, two for Mr. Henderson, and one for Mr. Williamson at Ulsta.

9557. Where do you get your supplies?-Generally from the merchant for whom I am fishing. We don't have means to get them anywhere else.

9558. Are you generally a little bit in arrear end of the year?-No; I always manage to have something over to help to pay the land rent.

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9559. Do you pay your rent to Hay & Co.?-Yes, to the man whom they send up to make the settlement. They send a man every year to West Sandwick.

9560. Are you fishing for them just now?-No; the last one I fished for was Mr. Williamson. I have made no arrangement for the present year.

9561. Where are you getting your supplies for the incoming year?-We are shifting along the best way we can. We have some corn and potatoes of our own.

9562. Is not the time past for making up the boats' crews?-No; sometimes it is done before now, but sometimes it is as late as the month of April.

9563. Are there many men near you who have not made any arrangement for this year?-There are a good few, principally those who fished along with me last year.

9564. Then I suppose you are quite at liberty to go and fish for anybody you please?-So far as I know, I am.

9565. Have you no account running anywhere just now?-No.

9566. Are you not in debt to anybody?-I may be about 1s. or 2s. in debt at the shop at Linkshouse, but that is all.

9567. If you engage to fish for Mr. Leask at Ulsta, will you open an account at his shop at once?-I should like to be as long as possible in opening an account.

9568. But I suppose you won't get through the summer without doing so?-No. Of course I could not get through the summer without a little supplies.

9569. Do you think it would be an advantage to you if you could get your fish paid earlier in the season?-It would be an advantage in some respects. If I was not fishing for the proprietor, and if he wanted his rent at Martinmas and I did not settle with the fishcurer, then the proprietor might come upon me for the rent before I had money to pay him, and put me to expenses for that.

9570. Don't the proprietors generally wait for your rent till after the settlement?-In some cases they do, but not always.

9571. Have you known cases where they would not wait until after settlement?-I have not known any but in some cases they would like to have the money as soon as it is due.

9572. Have you known any case in which the fishcurer would not advance money for the rent when the proprietor was needing it?-I never knew that.

9573. Does the fish-curer generally advance you money for that purpose?-Yes, if there is money coming to me at the settlement.

9574. Have you known a fish-curer giving a line to the proprietor for the rent?-Yes. I have got an order from one of our curers to the proprietor himself. I have got an order from Mr. Henderson to Messrs. Hay, and it was accepted the same as cash. That was last year; the order was for about £5. It was a stamped order on the bank. It was only for part of my rent, and I had to shift for the rest somewhere else.

9575. Was it a cheque for the whole balance due to you?-Yes.

9576. Did you get it at settling time?-I got it at the time when Messrs. Hay settled, but I did not get an account from Mr. Henderson until after that.

9577. Then there was more due to you by Mr. Henderson than that?-A trifle. He took care to keep on the right side.

9578. Then you think it would not be of much difference to you to have an earlier payment?-I don't know. It might suit a temperate man very well who could manage his own affairs; but for the man who required all his pence, I don't think it would suit very well.

9579. Don't you think it would be better if you were to be paid so much, perhaps every week or every month, during the course of the fishing, and then to be paid the balance according to the actual price at the end of the season?-I think that would be a very good plan, so far as I can see. It would keep the men from turning into debt, and it would enable them to go to the best market; whereas we who have no money are compelled to take our supplies from the fish-curer.

9580. Do you think that is often a loss to you?-I am certain it is, because his prices must be a little higher in consequence.

9581. Have you felt that yourself?-I felt it last year.

9582. Then anything would be an improvement which would enable you to keep out of debt and deal where you pleased?-Yes; if we had the means of dealing where we pleased, then we would be enabled to go to the best market.

9583. Have you compared the goods you have got from the merchants for whom you were fishing with those you could get elsewhere?-Yes. Last summer we were paying 1s. 3d. per peck for the flour which we were getting from Mr. Williamson at Ulsta, and there was as good flour in Messrs. Hay's at Feideland at 1s. 1d.

9584. Have you ever made any other comparison of that kind?- No. Sometimes when we found the tea or sugar to be bad, we would try where we could get it best; but we could not run an account at these places, in case we might not be able to pay it from our fishing.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, HUGH HUGHSON, examined.

9585. You are a merchant at Gossaburgh?-Yes.

9586. Do you cure fish?-A few.

9587. How many boats had you last year?-I had no boats at all. I deal altogether in ready money. I pay ready cash for all that is brought to me, but I only do in that way on a small scale. I have no bondmen, and I wish for no bondmen.

9588. Do you pay for the fish as they are delivered?-Yes; cash down.

9589. Do you purchase generally from men who are fishing promiscuously along the coast?-Yes.

9590. Do you buy from men who are engaged to other merchants?-No. There are it few small boats that fish along the shore, and when they come along the shore with their fish I buy them.

9591. How do you fix the price of the green fish which you buy from them?-I fix it from the merchants' price. Supposing I can get £20 in cash for dry fish, I consider that I can give about 7s. per cwt. for the same fish green, calculating 21/4 of green to 1 cwt. of dry.

9592. Do you think that kind of business might be carried on on a large scale?-I think it could; and am sure it would be much better for the men. I have been twelve years in the country, and I have found that by paying ready money I have got more custom.

9593. Have you no credit transactions at all?-Yes. I try to oblige people at times when they want goods.

9594. But you have no security in the shape of fish which you are to receive?-No.

9595. In fact you have no security at all except their honesty?- No. I now produce my fish-book, which contains entries of the fish as they are landed, and the prices which I pay for them.

9596. Do you find that the existence of long credits prevents you from driving as large a business as you might otherwise do?-The islands have groaned under the system of long credits for many years.

9597. But do you find that it interferes with your driving a larger business?-I have no command over men, and I do not wish to have, but I always find that when there is any money going I get my fair share of it; and I think if every one did the same, they would get a fair proportion of business.

9598. If the men could not get credit from the larger fish-curers, do you think they would be ready to deliver their fish to you for ready money at the current price?-I think they would. I believe I would be able to [Page 232] buy £100 worth for every £20 worth I buy now, if the men could not get supplies on credit elsewhere.

9599. Do you think the introduction of a cash system of that kind would greatly injure the men, and make them unable to get through the winter?-I think the introduction of a cash system into the islands would not do very well for the poor men, because they must often have £2 or £3 of supplies from the curers before they can begin work. What they complain of is, that the merchants charge them a little as commission upon the money which they pay for the goods.

9600. But instead of getting supplies as they do now, they would be paid for their fish every time they delivered them, and then they could purchase goods as they pleased with the cash?-Yes; but there are many men at present who have no means, and who must come to me and ask me for a few pounds at a time with which to pay their rents. If I refuse them that assistance they could not carry through at all. They could not wait until they got money from their fishing; they would become paupers; and therefore they require advances.

9601. Do you buy any fish in winter and spring?-Yes; I buy a good few in winter when I can get them.